Dear A.I.G., I Quit!
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/opinion/25desantis.html?_r=2
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- lvp
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DEAR Mr. Liddy,
It is with deep regret that I submit my notice of resignation from A.I.G. Financial Products. I hope you take the time to read this entire letter. Before describing the details of my decision, I want to offer some context:
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- groups:
- Community, News and Politics, WTF, News_Featured, 1 more
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- tags:
- News, News and Politics, WTF, Current TV, 21 more
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greggm04
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So the question is not whether he was working in the specific department that messed up. The entire company has failed. He is lucky, courtesy of the taxpayers, that he even had a job to quit. Throw them all out on the street and give the money to the auto companies - after you clean out their executive suites. Surely we can find better people to run these companies.
And then pass some laws and regulations to change the incentive balance. You will NEVER get rid of greed. It is a basic component of human nature, necessary for evolutionary survival. Some will respond to this instinct ethically, some will not. But armed with this knowledge, let's just tweak the free market rules and channel this greed, making the incentives align with the common sense best interests of the country.
When the best and brightest graduating from MIT decide to go to Wall St and invent stuff that even Alan Greenspan doesn't understand, something is seriously out of whack.
Since you will NEVER get rid of greed, (sorry to all the utopians out there) let's harness for the common good.
Another thing - should we allow companies to get "too big to fail ?" As we now see, we need to seriously contradict free market principles to save the free market !
Warren Buffett for Sec of Treasury !!!
- 3 years ago
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greggm04
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greggm04
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I haven't read all the posts, so someone may have asked this, but why would a company that is losing money, and needs taxpayer help to survive, pay ANYONE a bonus ?? Maybe they should just pay him his normal salary instead of the one dollar they are paying him.
How much in salary and bonuses has he received over his career at AIG ? My guess is that he has enough to tide him over. I lived in the Fairfield, Westchester County area for 10 years and know the area and people well. In my old neighborhood a hedge fund guy knocked down 2 10,000 sq ft houses to build a 40,000 sq ft house. Many feel entitled to these massive salaries (and houses) due to their "brilliance." And of course we need this "brilliance" to get out of this mess ? Seems like fuzzy logic to me - kind of like the fuzzy math that started this whole cycle ! (1980 campaign anyone ?)
- 3 years ago
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greggm04
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SPECIALIST
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i hope desantis is suitably embarrassed - $700,000+ bonus, million dollar salary = greed greed greed greed greed.
- 3 years ago
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SPECIALIST
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honusurf
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Dear AIG, may I please have a job?
- 3 years ago
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honusurf
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pinkerbelle
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wow! this was actually somewhat heartfelt. I guess AIG and Liddy are torn as to who to appeal to...the public or their employees.
It's interesting that the people of AIG have to repay their bonuses--I think that some of these bonuses should be repaid since they were a little too extravagant but some of these "hard working" employees should see some money.
We as the public do not know how hard the people of AIG have been working to keep the company afloat and I understand that its hard to see people profiting more than you are, but understand their position in the company and what they do. Auto workers might lose jobs because they're not as valued within the American society as much as bankers in New York...as much as I hate to say this, but it's the order of the capitalist society and since everyone's against the socialist government, there's nothing that can be done to change the system.
- 3 years ago
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pinkerbelle
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Incredulous
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pinkerbelle:
shortsighted...time to think outside the box. Economic systems are developed in times of crisis. Capitalism and socialism are not our only choices, and to believe that they are is to resign yourself to a gerbil's wheel.
- 3 years ago
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Incredulous
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pinkerbelle
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pinkerbelle:
"resign myself to a gerbil's wheel"?!?!?!?! wtf? people like you should not be allowed to talk like this on current
I'm more appalled by the lack of change in the current economic system. I was suggesting that we could move towards a new system but because everyone is so against any system other than the current, i don't see a change happening any time soon. socialism was just a suggestion, since i honestly don't have any idea what kind of political and economic system is going to come after.
Obviously the capitalist economy is garbage, change is what we need but if the capitalists continue to have so much excess money, the masses have no chance but to live in poverty.
- 3 years ago
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pinkerbelle
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Incredulous
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pinkerbelle:
First of all, you don't know what kind of person I am, so making a statement about people like me is distrubingly shortsighted.
Second of all, I wasn't calling you a gerbil. It's a metaphor for going round and round in circles and getting nowhere, which is the point I was trying to make about resigning ourselves to either capitalism or socialism, or for that matter, to any either/or set of choices. These are not our only economic choices. Unfortunately for the caged gerbil, going around in circles IS the only choice.
- 3 years ago
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Incredulous
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chasingame
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So what....just another guy screwed by AIG and the rest of the American banking system. We could fill this forum with letters from people screwed by these guys. People like factory workers, miners, truckers, and construction workers have all been screwed by their actions. It wasn't any of their faults either but I don't see AIG sending them a "bonus" from the tax payers bailout money.
If this guy actually signed on for one dollar and passed up other more stable job opportunities to stay with AIG, I guess he can take the same lesson that a lot of other Americans have had. You cannot trust these pricks. - 3 years ago
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chasingame
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allIknowis
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chasingame:
good point
- 3 years ago
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allIknowis
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JoshMo
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Very nicely written letter !
Gives me the flip side of story which i was dying to read - 3 years ago
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JoshMo
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fryboy44
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its true though im in tv production
we just went over thisall the news does is give bias information
which is controlled on whether the owner
is democrat or republican
i always wished that there would be a news station that wasn't bias - 3 years ago
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fryboy44
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gordonbray
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Personally, I think the bonuses at AIG were well deserved. Just kidding.
- 3 years ago
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gordonbray
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bastional
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What a sad state of affairs it is when even some comments on current.com adhere to “Group Thinking”. It is good to here another side of any story other that the mass media’s spin.
“Hey everyone, lets take this small fact of retention payments (wait, lets call them bonuses) and spin it in to such a distraction, the congressmen will have to get onboard of this unjustified witch-hunt to keep their votes coming from these idiots we control. We don’t even have to tell the other side of the story! Nobody will care about the whole story, just what parts we tell.”
Stupid Lemmings
- 3 years ago
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bastional
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hammywill
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The whole bonuses "fiasco" is a red herring. While this man will suffer no loss to his current standard of living, the precedent set here is enormously frightening. I think the execs who were responsible belong in jail. Not being persecuted in the media for receiving bonuses.
This man however had a contract for $1, the rest of his "pay" would be performance based. This is what his "bonus" was. The point is, do you think it is fair that a person worked for a company's department that contributed to miliions of dollars in profit deserves only $1 in compensation?
Also, the idea that after the Senate AND the House INSISTED that the bonus payments be made, they now attempt to pass an ex post facto tax to recoup those payments is a DANGEROUS scenario to say the least. Public sentiment is what caused these people to pay back their bonuses. (Which is a misnomer in many cases as their bonuses were in fact a de facto salary based on merit.) The house bill H.R. 1586 would not have stood a Constitutional check. Anyone who thinks it would has not read the Constitution or does not believe in the principles (not the text) of the Ex Post Facto law.
- 3 years ago
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hammywill
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cybexg
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hammywill:
most likely WRONG. For the record, I both believe in and have READ the Constitution. As far as principles, I believe your understanding of the principles are very much in error
Now onto the facts/law
Note, this isn't that dissimilar to a common bar type question
I thought I would add some corrections
1) the contract clause prevents STATES from retroactively impairing contracts. It does NOT apply to the federal government. Though flagrant interference would likely be prevented through due process.
2) Ex post Facto applies to legislation that retroactively alters the CRIMINAL LAW (not civil regulation) in a SUBSTANTIALLY PREJUDICIAL manner so as to deprive a person of any right previously enjoyed FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUNISHING THE PERSON FOR SOME PAST ACTIVITY.
Here, if a law's PURPOSE is civil rather than punitive - it is NOT ex post facto. The exception is if the effect is so clearly punitive as to negate the legislature's intention
A smart lawyer would make the argument that the intent was to get back bail out money that was misused for bonuses - not to punish. The limited nature, timespan, conditions for application could also be used to argue that it wasn't punitive enough to negate the legislature's intention.
Note, there is a very good summary in the barbri review. Also, you could read
1) Smith v. Doe - 538 US 84 (2003)
2) Stronger v. California 539 US 607 (2003)
3) Dobbert v. Florida 432 US 282 (1977)let me know if I got any of the sites incorrect - ripped them off some old notes.
In summary,
I'm not sure if it would have stood a challenge. Court challenges are always a bit of a crap shoot. However, to bluntly state is wasn't/isn't constitutional would seem to ignore Constitutional law.Now state law is a different issue
- 3 years ago
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cybexg
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hammywill
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hammywill:
Being as I am the interpreter of the law, and not the bench, or the judicial system, I would have to disagree. I am not saying that your interpretation is not based on Judicial review or Legal precedence, I am only saying that your basis of how Law is interpreted is flawed. Juries interpret the law not judges. Ex Post Facto is ex post facto, legalese it all you want.
My biggest contention here however is the precedence this would set. And the fact that this man's bonus was in fact his salary.
- 3 years ago
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hammywill
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hammywill
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hammywill:
Also you stated "A smart lawyer would make the argument that the intent was to get back bail out money that was misused for bonuses"
The fact is the very same legislators who passed this Bill were the very same ones who insisted on including the Bonuses IN the bailout package. Any smart lawyer would be able to point out that the Tax to recoup these bonuses are politically motivated and have no standing in law. If 2 days ago you said I could have a bonus and then the next day the people were agitated so today you take the payment made back from me. This is not a legal abrogation of a civil contract.
- 3 years ago
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hammywill
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cybexg
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hammywill:
I understand your anger and disagreement. But I would first caution against a few of your statements.
1) Juries are the trier of fact, not law. This is why there exist mechanisms such as summary judgments (Where there is no material fact in dispute, the judge is permitted to make a decision as a matter of law).
However, what I believe you were trying to say is that Juries are free to vote/voice their minds. This is of course true.
2) There is substantial history where politics has motivated bills. Political motivation need not be fatal to a bill. One could argue that politics has motivated every bill ever passed.
All other issues aside (ignoring other items, issues, etc.), I really am shocked over your statement regarding juries. Let me put it bluntly; do you really believe that juries interpret the (potentially very complex) law and judges are nothing more than legal crossing guards? Or, do you believe that juries find facts (while sometimes allowing their own views color their findings)?
disclaimer: as always, generalities are being discussed. Specifics require payment.
- 3 years ago
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cybexg
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hammywill
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hammywill:
Agreed on the generalities statement.
I think perhaps my argument may lie in the semantics of this debate. Jurors have a right to judge the law. A juror does not have to rule on fact at all, or even rest their decision on the basis of law. A juror sitting on a case where a defendant is clearly guilty according to all the facts under the law, may still find the defendant not guilty if he/she disagrees with or feels the law in question is being improperly asserted. This creates a scenario in which judges are simply arbiters. While it had been the case that we have a tendency to simply place the burden into the hands of judges, if we as jurors found a law to be improperly founded, interpreted, punished, or enacted we could and should effectively nullify the law by refusing to convict in face of all facts of law.
- 3 years ago
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hammywill
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Incredulous
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hammywill:
delightful debate gentlemen...I enjoyed it!
- 3 years ago
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Incredulous
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allIknowis
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hammywill:
Here too, enjoyed the debate.
One question about " 2) Ex post Facto applies to legislation that retroactively alters the CRIMINAL LAW (not civil regulation) in a SUBSTANTIALLY PREJUDICIAL manner so as to deprive a person of any right previously enjoyed FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUNISHING THE PERSON FOR SOME PAST ACTIVITY."
Weren't the exes being threatened with prosecution unless they returned the money and enactment of the 90% tax law?
I personally think congress acted in a very chicken sh*t, CYOA way with the whole thing and every member who voted for this should be voted out, but that's just me.But it is refreshing to see a strong disagreement with out any name calling. Kudos.
- 3 years ago
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allIknowis
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hammywill
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hammywill:
It's refreshing too to have honest debate. After all, honest people can disagree. However I think the debate was more the point than the specific case at hand..lol..
- 3 years ago
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hammywill
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honusurf
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So AIG is failing, wheres the systemic meltdown?
- 3 years ago
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honusurf
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Nephwrack
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you know what this is?
( rubs finger and thumb together )this is the worlds tiniest violin playing my heart pumps purple piss for you, Mr. DeSantis.
amen, neocongo.
- 3 years ago
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Nephwrack
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neocongo
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Wah wah. An executive vice president is completely unaware and therefore not complicit with AIG's nuclear meltdown? I don't believe it for a second.
- 3 years ago
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neocongo
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curiousitykilled
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Actually there is more to this story that the media is not covering. The total amount of bonuses paid was 218 million which is significantly higher. More importantly these bonuses were going to the people who were responsible for the mess the company finds itself in. Without the bailout funds the company would be bankrupt and those bonuses would not have been paid out anyways. Most of these bonuses were paid to executives working outside of the U.S. using our U.S. tax dollars. On top of all this don't forget the parties and events the company was hosting when the bailout was first announced. Having a fourth quarter loss that totals over 60 billion and spending the money this way isn't a very good indicator that the bailout money was spent well and raises questions as to whether or not this company can change the way it does business to stay afloat. This is a very big deal and I dont care about the executives side of the story. Bottom line is you do not deserve bonuses when you ran your company into the ground. You deserve to be fired. AIG first defended their bonuses by saying they need to give a competitive salary to keep quality employees. Which makes no sense at all. Then they claimed that they were bound by contracts to pay out bonuses. Which isnt necessarily true either. Contracts can be renegotiated a practice which happens quite regularly in corporate settings. Also the person who was overseeing the bailout money knew about these bonuses shortly before they were paid out but thought that fighting the bonuses payout could result in a lawsuit which turns out wasnt true if he would have consulted someone with a little more expertise on law. The way big business is being handled is out of control and outrage is the right feeling to have right now. If it is misdirected in some ways thats unfortunate, but join the club. You have hardly felt the the true effects of what the economic downturn has caused. Cut your losses and get out before things get worse Jake. I hope he actually donates the money for a good cause and not to some bs charity to get tax breaks. I am interested in where his money is going.
- 3 years ago
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curiousitykilled
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Ayahuasca2012
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So I'm supposed to feel sorry for this guy because the failing company he works for didn't give him his bonus/took it back? Newsflash fucktard... you aren't the only one getting fucked because of your companies decisions (and other companies just like yours). Stop acting like a fucking victim because we all are!
I work for a very large company at this time and guess what? Supervisors and above took a 5% paycut and we all lost our 1/2 401k matching among other things...
In summary fuck you Jake Desantis!
- 3 years ago
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Ayahuasca2012
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magnusdeus
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It's not blabbering. It's the other side of the story that deserves to be heard. All of his points are good ones, and I would probably have taken a similar course of action had it been me.
To say that it was his responsibility to prevent this is kind of absurd, given his department's focus on business development and not credit default swaps. He even goes on to talk about the life savings he lost because of those dealings.
Can you say you lost something similar? Probably not. You might think to read the story next time so you don't look like such a dumb ass.
- 3 years ago
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magnusdeus
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Ayahuasca2012
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magnusdeus:
Who gives a fuck about his life savings? I lost half of mine and I'm not crying and whining saying how much I deserved that bonus the government made me give back. (never got one to begin with... but that's beside the point.) Failure should not be rewarded, so what if his department wasn't at fault. His company was still failing... pay bonuses with your own money not tax payers...
Yeah it sucks he got fucked over... but we all have and he is not a singular case. This is the media's way of tugging your heart strings... Put a face on the suffering of the executive/well to do and parade it around showing how they are having a hard time of it too. Guess he might have to trade in his Mercedes...
- 3 years ago
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Ayahuasca2012
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marQueso
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Half way through his blabbering i stopped reading and asked myself a couple of things.
1. did he do anything to prevent this?
2. do i care? - 3 years ago
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marQueso
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blknight
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marQueso:
did the same thing.
- 3 years ago
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blknight
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NorthboundToLoop
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marQueso:
Prevention? Yeah, doubt it. I question the man who decides to stay with a company knowing that they are screwing the economy over. And if he, like many others, have saved enough money from previous years of work to sign a contract to work for $1 annual salary and still live a good comfy life that let's them feed their families, pay the bills, and send their kids to school... then they're doing just fine. I usually try to not be so critical, but this was just two pages of bitching.
- 3 years ago
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NorthboundToLoop
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ddhboy
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Did I ever say just how much I hate the American media? Its amazing how news organizations look to find a source evil in every story that they publish rather than just to state the facts. This goes right down to misrepresenting the facts like comparing the bonuses to the bailout by writing it in the following way
170 Billion in bailouts
165 Million in bonusesIntended to confuse the audience and make sure that everyone would think that their tax money was used mostly on the bonuses which simply isn't true. Now you have reporters camping outside of everyday employee's homes, looking to make them the villains, letting them get death threats and attacks, and having our representatives try to play superman by taxing and attacking every worker of AIG, making it seem that they all live in giant mansions whipping their ass with 20 dollar bills.
- 3 years ago
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ddhboy
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TabulaRasa
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ddhboy:
Yeah it could be confusing but the fact is that they did use tax money... not as much as some confused people think but none the less it shouldn't have happened and a million in my book is still 100000x more than I have right now.
- 3 years ago
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TabulaRasa
