Seattle Athiests Starting New Bus Ad Campaign

That...was...BEAUTIFUL! I almost cried, myself.

But, in all seriousness, a very good comment(s) indeed.

Well you can always find more on the links I try to aim people toward. In any case it's good that it reached you.
God bless.

Change the word "there" to the correct word "their".

And the planet and the DNA and the sun which gives life to the planet and the DNA and all the animals and you and the perfectly timed asteroid are all minute parts of God's creation and are placed here in service to His Cause. Beautiful.

Of course, my little story is placed to provide people with the notion that human beings are no more important than any other entity in the whole of the Universe.
That the apparent separation is an illusion.

It is usually quite chilling for religious types to get an inkling that an idea they accepted - which usually is that they will live forever because an old man with beard made everything just for them - might not be real.

We all float along with whatever our particular idea is - but we all can be learning, the whole while, and certainly, any idea with which one becomes enamored can get modified by including more information.

That is exactly how we got our ideas in the first place.

But they have to push "re-set" to see how their view is changed. How new information changes their own view.

Imagine refusing to change your view when you were six years old, perfectly confident that the beautiful understanding you had was to be the preferred?

You'd miss out on the real. That that is to come for your own drives for the true perception.

It's something to consider.

"But then, I guess there's a lot of potential perspectives to have on this..."

You can say that again.

If I see one more billboard that says, "Don't make me come down there. - God" I'm going to puke.

..... tl;dr.
Learn to avoid wall-of-text posting. Or worse, wall-of-text quoting.

Learn to read. It's a big thought. Just focus your mind and take it in. Nevermind the format or the size or the fact that it's a quote, just read the content and try to wrap your mind around it. Stay on point. Don't get lost in pointless nitpicking.

Addendum: OK "MOK", I know what you're saying about the post but if you look over my posts in general you'll also find that this isn't something I often do. Sometimes though it is just better stated by another and in those cases I do defer.

Point taken, and a good point. For that, I'll do it.

But I hope you also take mine. ;)

This is working within the parameters of our own consciousness. Somehow I don't think "God" can be packaged up so neatly into something we can interpret or understand. Our frame of reference (relevance) is not broad enough to process quantum physics let alone the existence of God. If he/she truly does exist he/she is not how we perceive her/him. Any religion that claims they know God is a frivolous attempt at understanding the universe with nothing to go on other than their frame of reference which is finite. Where as you are dealing with a subject that is infinite. How dare we try to claim we know "God." And....if you study Quantum Physics the devil is in the detail (no pun intended). That which is unexplainable is always thrown on to a deities lap. The earth used to be flat, frogs used to come from mud, and "God created" man.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Using God as a fill-in for unanswered questions does not in itself prove there is or isn't a God. Science has provided some pretty great explanations for the development of the human species, such as evolution. Science has also come up with some pretty convincing arguments for the development of life itself all of which do not require a God-like creature as the catalyst.

And notice how anyone that questions what's being stated are referred to as "weak souls."

Christ. *irony in cursing* :)

If I'm going to be religious...I prefer Vishnu as the head of the Universe.

Anyone see this past weeks Newsweek? Discusses the decline and fall of Christianity. Now if we could get the rest to fall and decline.

"borymp",

Note that there is a vast difference between illustrating proof of the existence of God and attempting to "define" the nature of God. In your first comment above you've confused the two.

In your second comment you've managed to take the last statement of the quote personally. That says more about you than the one quoted, as it isn't intended as a personal insult to any member of the human family, just an acknowledgment of the fact that capacities for intellectual understanding vary greatly among the human population.

First grade students would not benefit from college level lesson plans. That's not a slight, it's just a fact which if a teacher is sensitive to it will enable the one seeking to move along in their education with much greater efficiency. If one isn't seeking then there can be no harm, just move along and be blissful.

Also need to point out that there is absolutely no suggestion that as you misrepresent it:

"And notice how anyone that questions what's being stated are referred to as "weak souls."

Where in that entire quote do you read anything that even remotely suggests anything to do with anyone questioning anything? That is your erroneous insertion of an implication which isn't present in the quote. Here again is what was stated in reference to "weak souls", to wit:

"These obvious arguments are adduced for weak souls; but if the inner perception be open, a hundred thousand clear proofs become visible. Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments."

Nothing at all about anyone who questions the explanation. You should read it a few more times.

Perfect thread for that :)

"God" I hope they win this weekend. Bwahahahahaha.

Yea.... I just went back far enough in your posts to see that your statement was not directed at these bus ads and billboards. I should have taken the time to read back a little farther. I do see what you said. But, like I said, I was not singling you out. It was meant to be a general statement about how a lot of people seem to react to these things.

Defiler of Stay-Puft!!! Gozer The Gozerian have mercy on you!!! You shall burn in the belly of the TORG!

Hehehehe... so that's what it feels like to say something like that...feh, I like being inflammatory and argumentative more. :)

.... and Bill Murray was my hero as Peter Venkman :)

Heh. Yes, I have noticed your posts turning up like little sprites among these posts. You must have your mischievous trouble-maker hat on...I LOVE that hat and wear it whenever possible... Thank you for keeping the conversation from getting too heavy and too self-righteous (well, OK, you didn't quite stop me on THAT point, but you gave it a hell of a try...)

As I was writing that post, I was thinking "O.K., I want to make the point that people should feel free to believe what they want to believe...even if their beliefs struck others as patently absurd. Now what kind of God would strike people as patently absurd?" At that point, despite trying to keep my mind completely open, I thought of...The Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man. I mean, when one thinks of the wrathful God of the Old Testament what better contrast is there than friendly little Mr. Sta-Puff...and what better PARALLEL than the vengeful giant Sta-Puff from Ghostbusters?

"but keep that shit off my bus." Indeed, if you owned a bus, you could certainly put on or keep off whatever you please! These bus owners will do the same.

if nobody gives a shit, what do you care?

Not that it makes a difference, but the ads are on the inside of the buses.

Hey cz, no problem.

"For me" is sometimes left out of that Sagan quote, which does change it's meaning somewhat.

THX for the good words btw!

Tabula Rasa

"But I happen to think that my little delusion about Christ's message is probably one of the LEAST harmful of my MANY delusions."

Whoa whoa now, sneaky! You said "Christ's MESSAGE"- as in, love thy neighbor? Have compassion for one another? I doubt you'd find too many atheists to argue against those ideals- it's not the message, rather the supernatural aspects of the Jesus Christ that atheists have beef with; the virgin birth, being the son of god, resurrection, etc. I'm having a semi- similiar convo on another post (http://current.com/items/89956260/resurrections_throughout_history.htm#addRespon...), I'd love your opinion.

Anyway, it is not a personal attack against your faith to question faith itself. It's not like "Why can't YOU just stop believing in God?"- That's as silly as asking me to start! It's more like "Why is belief in an unprovable thing the default setting of society, and why is it so outrageous to question it?"

At it's core, Christianity is full of good teachings and things to live by, I don't think there is much of an argument against that.
it is those who call themselves Christians that have misconstrued and deformed the teachings of Christ on the belief in God.
It's sad to see, really.

As Ghandi said,"I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians."

Organized religion seems to be one bad mistake after another, no offense.

Delia,

I was truly not TRYING to be sneaky (I am a "reforming" attorney and therefore sneaky by training and not necessarily by intent. I would describe the program I am attending for THAT bit of my background, but it is WAYYYYY more than 12 steps long...). I did not mean to narrow that statement to exclude the "miracles."

Heh. I just flashed on that expression "What were once vices are now merely habits." When I was younger, anything I could not see or otherwise measure was relegated to the realm of "magic" or "miracle" and therefore not "real" or "credible." I am older now and have seen a lot more. Much of it I frankly wish I could "unsee." But I am also very grateful to have seen things that I simply would not have believed possible 30 years ago.

Anyway, please assume I meant "the whole shootin' match" and not just His message. Thank you for inviting me to your other conversation. I will take a peek in a bit. I am commenting here on Current during breaks as I approach the finish line on my firm's tax returns. A little "devine intervention" would be welcome right about now... If I believed in the Devil, I would say that I found his handiwork in several of the supplementary forms I had to file this year (and may all such forms be cast forever into the pit of eternal damnation and despair...if such a thing actually existed...OK, well there WAS law school...).

You and me both.

i agree, very good comment.

I have nothing against atheists and I encourage everyone to make their own decisions in life.

you are also correct in saying that those who go to church or are Christians just because their parents did isn't very practical. It is just blind faith.

Way to go, love the comment

I think you are oversimplifying the aspect of that quote; the idea of being rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad is prevalent throughout many religions, philosophies and plain old common sayings ("What goes around comes around!")

Also, the Catholic Church just got back into the habit of selling indulgences (http://current.com/items/89851701/buy_your_way_to_heaven_the_catholic_church_bri...) Which obviously as a Lutheran you disagree with- but don't doubt the utter ridiculousness of some people!

And on the note of Mother Teresa, I find the extent of her doubt fascinating, to the point where she admitted "she felt no presence of God whatsoever" by the end of her life.

To the contrary, Delia, I think the quote oversimplifies most Christian religions. Most do NOT believe that you earn your way into heaven by doing good things or that God will punish one for doing bad things during this life. So when a group of atheists essentially tell me that this is what I believe, it is very much as though they were telling me that I am barely smart enough to scrawl my name in the dirt with a stick: "duhhhh Hulk do GOOD, Hulk go to heaven. Hulk do BAD, Hulk go to hell..." See what I mean?

As to your second point, if you have read more than four or five of my posts, I am quite certain you know that I am aware of the utter ridiculousness of some people

As to the third one, my allusion to Mother Theresa was not intended as commentary on HER faith or lack thereof. Given her life and the suffering she saw, smelled, heard and ENDURED during that life, I am frankly amazed that she could feel ANYTHING toward the end... My intended meaning was that I would not feel comfortable approaching someone like Mother Theresa and questioning her faith to her face unless I had a pretty deep and intimate understanding of that religion. And the point I was trying to make was really only that if the atheists wanted those bus signs to be EFFECTIVE among those who might be considering whether their faith was real or rational, the atheists should be careful not to sound trite by tossing off criticisms that are inacurate simply because they were not properly researched.

For example, if someone wanted to persuade me that my Lutheran faith was misplaced, they would not be very persuasive if the first few things they said to me about my religion were innaccurate (i.e, "I don't understand what you believe, but I am here to tell you that your beliefs are nonsense." "Come again?"

Right, but if the bus ad doesn't apply to what you believe in, why take offense to it or assume it's aimed at your belief system? Honestly I think the concept of good=heaven and bad=hell IS believed of the majority of America.

In general I'm not sure that these atheist bus ads are meant to have people question their belief systems so much as bring the conversation into the mainstream and make it less taboo to question faith, religion and god.

Personally I think Hulk would have better time in New Jersey. Heaven too happy, they wouldn't like him and he'd just smash hell to... well.. hell.

Oh come now, Delia, the argument that the bus ads aren't "aimed" at Christians so they shouldn't take offense is well below your usual standards. Do you REALLY want to take the position that the atheists should not bother to really LEARN the precepts of the religions they reject so utterly and so strongly that they are willing to pay for BUS ADS? Or that if their arguments in the ads are not quite on point, it is only because they are rejecting only those religions that nicely fit the limits of their understanding of religion? Tsk. Bring out the Holy Hair Splitter...

"the argument that the bus ads aren't"aimed" at Christians so they shouldn't take offense is well below your usual standards."
I didn't say they weren't "aimed at Christians", though I suppose that is debatable because they only refer to "God", not a specific religion. Anyway, I asked why you would take them as aimed at YOUR belief systems- there are a lot of versions of "Christians" in America, running the gamut from the well read intellectuals to the hillbilly "you're going to the firey pits of hell for being different" type! If these signs are aimed more towards the latter, why take offense to them if you don't share those beliefs?

"Do you REALLY want to take the position that the atheists should not bother to really LEARN the precepts of the religions they reject so utterly and so strongly that they are willing to pay for BUS ADS?" Um, no, why in the world would I want to do that? Is this a trick question, you ex-attorney you! I don't see how these signs or anything I've said encourages or promotes that viewpoint.

"it is only because they are rejecting only those religions that nicely fit the limits of their understanding of religion?" Not rejecting certain religions, but those articles of "faith" and particular beliefs that should be rejected (or at least called into serious question) such as blind faith, claiming "god's will" as an excuse for questionable activity, condemning others as "sinners", etc.

Now it's not everyone who calls themselves "Christians" who hold these views or perform those acts and I don't think anyone would claim that.

As for a general "bursting of your bubble" type of thing, I never really saw it that way. I can only speak for myself when I say I am happy to engage in lengthy discussions on what I believe and why where as you say " I am not going to lift a finger to change your mind." (Which is not really true though, admit it you love debating this stuff or you wouldn't be on Current!) - but you should lift that finger. It's not all about converting people to your belief system, it's about opening perspectives and getting a better understanding of the spectrum of belief and non-belief that exists. You're so well spoken and intelligent it would be a crime (or should I say sin :D) not to share your knowledge and experience even if it ends up in hate mail (which I am no stranger to; the more fringe "Christians" on Current have sent me some ... interesting comments...)

Sorry if I'm responding to all of your different comments here, they all blend into one in my head as I write!

I have found that most people comprehend and "see" their own understanding. While one person is thoughtful, the next is not.

And when I have occasioned the conversations, I have found, when pinned right down, one person's actual concept of Jesus or of God - their actual mental pictures are different from one to the next.

All praying to a different God but cock sure they see the same.

We know there's a vast reality out there, but we juggle of own little pictures. Each little set of pictures are as different as each of our little personalities.

What's the difference between an agnostic and an athiest?

The athiest doesn't get splinters in his ass from the fence. :)

KIDDING!!!

HEAR HEAR! Preach on Brother Shawn! :)

Indeed. I have found that while there are some atheists on Current, it is far from the majority.

I think atheists are the majority...seems that way at least.
Probably because I hang around the News and Politics section.

I have no idea whether atheists are in the majority or not -- although I think it only prudent to tell anybody who might be thinking of taking a poll that you won't learn anything of any value, and those are 30 minutes you will never get back (at least not during THIS life -- sorry, that was intended to be funny, couldn't help myself -- smiley face emoticon).

i would not say that 80 percent of current is atheists, but i would say that it seems that 80 percent of atheists like to comment on, and put down any article that even mentions religion.
i understand,not everyone is religious, i am defiantly one of those people, but to respond angrily at the mere mentioning of it is a bit unfair.
either way, i love this ad campaign cuz it tries to take the blinders off! i would love to see this happen here in North Carolina. oh the highjinks that would ensue...

or Saturday, or five times a day... or whatever your god requires.

Exactly--I like these ads, they seem designed to make people think rather than just to disparage people who are religious.

right on!

Yup.

I am seriously diggin' those signs.:)

In fact these quotes point squarely in the direction of God for those who's intellectual/spiritual vision is unobstructed. The froward will never see it so.

thank you!

No thanks are needed. Like I tried to explain to you about guns, we all have rights and I will always support them!

I have always known in my heart that if there was a god he/she/it would not punish me for using my intellect and coming to the conclusion that god does not exist.

Indeed, if god exists, and is just, he/she/it would reward the atheists for having the courage of their convictions and punish the faithful for failing to use a little reason and a little common sense.

Why would God reward those who denied he existed?
If we can see the evidence of his work and creation all around us and still deny him, then why would he reward that?

maybe, to God, it is not in common sense to disbelieve in him or, that it is highly unreasonable to say he doesn't exist.

you say you have no evidence of God's or a god's existence, but does his work not show itself all around us? From the simple bacterium to the largest star, his handiwork seems to be in all of it.

God does not judge on ones merit's (works) as to whether or not one will go to heaven, he judges by whether or not you accepted the gift of Jesus' death on the cross.

What you present is what's called the Atheist's Wager (Wikipedia) and it is the opposite of Pascal's Wager.

It would seem that the downfall of all humanity is that we, simply, just do not know. One day, though, we will find out.

"you say you have no evidence of God's or a god's existence, but does his work not show itself all around us? From the simple bacterium to the largest star, his handiwork seems to be in all of it." Perhaps for you personally, but not in any scientific or provable sense.

@empireguy

"Atheist's wager" thank you for bringing this term to my attention. And yes, I believe my remarks could be construed as you claim.

And while I find wonder and beauty in the universe I see no reason to look to a god for explanation.

Yes, "question" it just like we should question everything. Thomas Jefferson however, never treated Christians or people of religion with intolerance or denied the existence of anything outright. Shame on atheists for taking the words of a great man and twisting them to suit their own agenda. I am about as sick of having atheism shoved down my throat now as I am about religious zealots who do the same.

"Yes, "question" it just like we should question everything." Exactly! You see, THAT is the "atheist agenda."

No, that is the agenda of any person who seeks logic and truth. Even people who believe in a higher power seek truth and logic. Would you say that because I believe in a higher power or consciousness that I am incapable of logic or seeking truth? Gnosticism IS about seeking truth and enlightenment. The Founding Fathers who wrote our constitution and Declaration of Independence were men who believed in such a higher power from which all good flowed, and were brilliant men of logic and reason. To pidgeonhole people and say that seeking truth is an atheist agenda is arrogant in my view.

I will always question the world around me, and at the same time I will always believe in a higher consciousness (call it God, providence, or whatever you wish) and the two to me are not mutually exclusive. Propaganda that seeks to show the other side as wrong or incapable of logic simply because they don't believe what you do is not tolerant or logical. I believe in everyone's right to believe or not believe and I don't spend my days trying to shove my views down peoples' throats telling them they are wrong because they don't believe what I do.

Separation of church and state and atheism are not synonymous. You can be religious and still support the separation of church and state.

"Would you say that because I believe in a higher power or consciousness that I am incapable of logic or seeking truth?" No.

"To pidgeonhole people and say that seeking truth is an atheist agenda is arrogant in my view." That's not what I meant; I was implying that there is no "atheist agenda" outside of question our belief systems and "seeking truth", not that ONLY atheists are capable of doing so.

This group really is designed for Atheists to have a community similar to church without the religion. They are just advertising their existence so that Atheists searching for community can find one. It was never designed to criticize other religious perspectives, but rather to spark a community discussion. Clearly they have succeeded.

No, it is not beside the point, it is the point. Some atheists always try to assign certain labels to people because they either believe or don't. That is illogical and unreasoned.

And yes, Thomas Jefferson questioned the "hocus pocus" of the New Testament, which is why he wrote the Jefferson BIBLE which depicts the life of Christ without it. It doesn't mean he denied the existence of Christ or a God.

A community "similar to church" is a religion, even if you don't have the "religion." And you described this initiative as showcasing "atheist logic." Thomas Jefferson was not an atheist. My point is that some of these messages skew the intent of the original message and are therefore disingenuous in using the words to fulfill an agenda, just like religion does.

"Some atheists always try to assign certain labels to people because they either believe or don't. That is illogical and unreasoned." That's not just atheists; it's people in general. Labels like "atheist" simply mean you don't believe in god, "Christian" simply means you believe in Christ, etc. It doesn't say anything more about you as a person than those definitions if you don't want it to.

I have an agenda - when it comes to people spouting off about "God"
Look, people - we sit here in this fantastic Universe. Everyone here at least has a notion of it.

Religions have the science of their time - which of course stops at a world view under which the architecture for their supernatural belief system resides.

Most cling to the beliefs because it promises that God made the whole Universe - just for them - and that they will live forever after they die.

This is a pitifully insipid view. The pain of this is every one of you is innately not this intellectually weak.

What a pain it is that people cower from reality so.

Ask yourself what your actual view of God is - what are you actually proposing to yourself?

God - is - the reality of the Universe that created us. (If one wishes to use the word "God")
You little human beings are the slightest of importance in the grand scheme of things. To think other and to think you "know" God is to hold the greatest egotism.

Your pitiful little thought process and vision is equal to God???

You are not the reason the Universe exists. To say you got it ass-backwards is the understatement of the ages.
How many billions of stars are there? How many billions of galaxies stretch out from us? What is the spatial contexture in which we see them?

And you're trying to hang on to this vanity! So you can avoid thinking about you're real place? Frightened?

Grow up! I ask that you trust that that is EXACTLY what you want to do.

Get your feet onto the real ground and grow up. - While you have the chance.

There IS a reality to this question - and it doesn't come from blind faith in this vain self-protection fantasy. It's worse than Santa Claus.

Holding on to these thoughts is the exact thing that keeps you from seeing your own, real life. You got your head in a box. Religion: The Box of Fear

Jan,

I used the word logic, not to poke at other forms of belief, but it seemed like the best word for Atheists. Perhaps it does highlight some of my own biases, but honestly I'm more Agnostic than Atheist. I like to imagine there is a possible higher order to things, but at the same time I do not think any human being is even remotely capable of defining the great unknown.

Yes, but let me assure you, there are people giving it to ol' one, two.