Community | May 04, 2009 | 52 comments

Creationism as "superstitious nonsense" violates First Amendment?

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A federal judge has ruled that a history teacher at a Southern California public high school violated the First Amendment when he called creationism "superstitious nonsense" during a classroom lecture.

U.S. District Judge James Selna issued the ruling Friday after a 16-month legal battle between student Chad Farnan and his former teacher, James Corbett.
Farnan's lawsuit alleged that Corbett made more than 20 statements that were disparaging to Christians and their beliefs.

The judge found that Corbett's reference to creationism as "religious, superstitious nonsense" violated the First Amendment's establishment clause. Courts have interpreted the clause as prohibiting government employees from displaying religious hostility.
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Was the Judge right? Should a teacher be prohibited from saying creationism is "religious, superstitious nonsense"?
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52 comments // Creationism as "superstitious nonsense" violates First Amendment?

  • NuclearLullaby
  • victimofcoal
    • 0
      victimofcoal  
    • Maybe if the so called "good christians" didn't use their religion to justify hate , fear , bigotry and murder, they would not be such easy targets of contempt.

    • 2 years ago
  • montesooma
    • 0
      montesooma  
    • shall we have teachers saying that darwinism is nonsense?
      There are a lot of things about darwinism that turned out to be false, so are it's adherents just clinging to hopes that it will be borne out in the end?
      Please don't write me that darwinism is 100% true, you will only id yourself as ignorant.
      Science should strive to disprove it's hypothesis, not make them fit into someones beliefs or lack thereof.
      What a bunch of elitist a-holes

    • 2 years ago
  • fun_size
    • 0
      fun_size  
    • montesooma:

      "There are a lot of things about darwinism that turned out to be false, so are it's adherents just clinging to hopes that it will be borne out in the end?"

      Its called the scientific method. Things are explained to the best of our ability with the knowledge currently available. This means that as time goes on and new evidence emerges, scientists alter the theory to reflect the information gained.

      There should be no debate on teaching creationism because it has no founding. While i admit evolution is not perfect it is the best explanation available. Creationism has NO evidence to support it. Therefore a purely religious idea has NO place being taught as an "alternative" scientific explanation.

    • 2 years ago
  • wirehedd
    • 0
      wirehedd  
    • montesooma:

      Darwin's evolutionary theories were flawed in a few ways but the primary ideologies and science of evolutionary changes of species was solidly sound and as such is an accepted and proven component of today's zoological, anthropological and social sciences.

      creationism is pure hokum and mythology.

    • 2 years ago
  • gen468
    • 0
      gen468  
    • Christains should avoid superstitons.

      From Wikipedia
      Superstition is a deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand is to fall into superstition.

      LIFE

      Think about it, contemplate it ,absorbed the essence of your existence.
      Wonder

    • 2 years ago
  • jh64487
    • 0
      jh64487  
    • superstitious nonsense it is but the teacher is not the person to be telling students about religion. a public school teacher shouldn't be talking about ANYONES religion unless they're a comparative religions class teacher

    • 2 years ago
  • artemis6
    • 0
      artemis6  
    • But it is supershitous nonsense . The people who wrote the bible were not archeologists . Someone made it up because they want to supplant real science . If you can't call something what it , is then it ain't free speech . Rush Dumbulb can say all sorts of nonsense , but it is okay because his opinion is protected . This teacher was asked a question . He gave an honest answer . What we are dealing with here is legislation from the bench . With a bias towards creationism and against the truth . James Selna should not be a judge if he cannot separate church from state and his own personal bias , as he is a threat to the constitution . American principles come first , then whatever belief system...

    • 2 years ago
  • montesooma
    • 0
      montesooma  
    • artemis6:

      No, i don't agree that it is superstition, you can't just pick and choose what science you like and then teach that only while denouncing any science that doesn't fit in with your belief structure.
      When you only teach one side of something, that is more like indoctrination.

    • 2 years ago
  • fun_size
    • 0
      fun_size  
    • artemis6:

      @ Montesooma

      When you find ANY scientific proof of creationism let me know. I wont hold my breath.

      "When you only teach one side of something, that is more like indoctrination."

      You really didnt just type this in defense of a religious idea did you?

      Religion IS indoctrination. You take children at a young age and tell them that there is an invisible man in the sky that watches everything they do. If they are bad then they will spend an eternity in torment or if they are good they will live forever in bliss. You tell them there is no other God but the one you worship and that all other religions are wrong. Converting "heathens" is a goal of any "true" Christian.

      So tell me where is the fair and balanced representation of the facts?

    • 2 years ago
  • fun_size
    • 0
      fun_size  
    • Wait... if calling creationism "superstitious nonsense" is considered disparaging to Christians and their beliefs than that means that creationism IS religious in nature and not science. Therefore with the separation of church and state creationism should not be allowed to be taught in schools. Im all for this decision if it means that creationism wont be taught to another generation of America's youth.

    • 2 years ago
  • wirehedd
  • Deekon
    • 0
      Deekon  
    • A Christian, by its definition, means a follower of the teachings of Christ. It's not fair to assume all Christians believe the same.

    • 2 years ago
  • fun_size
  • shanklinmike
    • 0
      shanklinmike  
    • We wouldn't have these problems if the schools weren't monopolized! It's because he is a government employee that makes this whole thing overblown!

    • 2 years ago
  • csmonut
    • 0
      csmonut  
    • The Ninth Circuit Court, which is the federal court based in California, has a notorious record of having their decisions overturned by the US Supreme Court.
      Which should say something about the ruling.

      wirehedd spelled it out nicely.
      "what a pathetic and disgusting statement on the state of our world when it's freedom of religion to preach hate and intolerance but it's a violation of the 1st amendment to say that superstitions are exactly what they are."

    • 2 years ago
  • wirehedd
    • 0
      wirehedd  
    • CiiMONSTR:

      it's perceptual creationism. it's the idea that one can create reality by the thought thereof, Dawkins makes it a bit simpler in the God Delusion and shows it's a little silly but there are some who will attempt to use it as a justifiable basis for creationism.

    • 2 years ago
  • jahbini
    • 0
      jahbini  
    • The phrase "creationism is religious" is OK.

      "religious, superstitious nonsense", is disparaging.

      Equating religion to superstition, while semantically correct, has connotations that steamroller the beliefs of the faithful.

      Now if Horoscopism ever becomes an organized religion, I'm sure there are plenty of potential members to join! So, just let me say ahead of that eventuality, I totally respect your right to be superstitious. (I'm now wondering if a teacher can be fired for saying "knock wood")

    • 2 years ago
  • jubal
    • 0
      jubal  
    • jahbini:

      The way I see it, practically anything can become a religion. Religion means ritual belief.

      I remember the movie Tommy where they had the church of Elvis and Marylin Monroe.

      The teacher did go over the line when he, as a teacher, spoke disparagingly of the student's beliefs. He simply could have stated, as was said before, that there is no scientific evidence to back it up. It seems to me that this teacher may have had a chip on his shoulder when it comes to religious people.

    • 2 years ago
  • Eleganza
  • humanpasta
  • NickerBocker09
  • Dersex
  • Eleganza
    • 0
      Eleganza  
    • Just as I cannot prove 100% that there are not leprechauns or unicorns does not elevate them to the stature of accepted facts, and not superstitious beliefs,

    • 2 years ago
  • Ricky84
    • 0
      Ricky84  
    • Image
    • I can’t stand bigotry so I usually end up defending religious individuals on this site. That being said, I have no tolerance for faith based ideas being taught in public schools. Forcing Americans children to listen to the “theory” of creationism, the young earth theory, or dino riding Jesus is absolutely retarded.

    • 2 years ago
  • humanpasta
  • Hou_Kairs
  • Eleganza
    • 0
      Eleganza  
    • As no doubt it will, would it be considered a violation of the first amendment if the teacher were to say that the Roman's and the Greeks belief in and worship of Jupiter or of Zeus was religious, superstitious nonsense? Or are there still people who will try and convince us that those gods are real? Same thing, just different names.

    • 2 years ago
  • sgwhites
  • Eleganza
  • slarabee
  • wirehedd
  • NickerBocker09
    • 0
      NickerBocker09  
    • The teacher shouldn't have said what he said. Instead he should have argued that there isn't any scientific backup. You don't win an argument by calling someone ugly.

      However, I'm curious how this "violates" the First Amendment. Perhaps an abuse of his power as a teacher, maybe a slap on the wrist?

    • 2 years ago
  • Drach
  • chuygarsia2
    • 0
      chuygarsia2  
    • Drach:

      or maybe believeing what people said 2000 years ago that an invisible man in the sky (who created himself) created everything that is in existence?

      that is what people SHOULD be punished for, being unnaturally stupid for believeing this nonsense.

    • 2 years ago
  • jahbini
    • 0
      jahbini  
    • Drach:

      OK, let's just focus on the statement "punishing people for speaking the truth"

      For instance: I say "I'm gonna punch you in the nose", and then really do punch you in the nose. (no I'm not really going to do either, OK?) -- I have done two illegal things, I have threatened you (an assault) as well as a physical attack (battery)

      So, should I tell the judge that my (illegal) threat is protected under the first amendment because I spoke the truth -- that I really did punch you in the nose?

      So if the speech is itself illegal (by offending under the anti-hate speech guidelines), my defense may not really be very strong if I maintain that I spoke "truthfully"

    • 2 years ago
  • shanklinmike
    • 0
      shanklinmike  
    • Both sides argue there is a beginning, I try to stay out of these debates, obviously failed at this attempt...

      My question is, if Obama is a Christian, is he a creationist?

    • 2 years ago
  • bishopobispo
    • 0
      bishopobispo  
    • shanklinmike:

      Even if he were, Obama has absolutely no intention of letting religion impede science. After watching his speech at the National Academy of Sciences (although you might want to skip to 22:14 if you want my statement summed up) Obama has made it pretty clear that ideology must not get in the way of scientific progress.

    • 2 years ago
  • wirehedd
    • 0
      wirehedd  
    • what a pathetic and disgusting statement on the state of our world when it's freedom of religion to preach hate and intolerance but it's a violation of the 1st amendment to say that superstitions are exactly what they are.

      what's next? science is evil unless some mullah approves it?

      frighteningly pathetic.

    • 2 years ago
  • sgwhites
    • 0
      sgwhites  
    • I don't think it violates anyone's rights, but I do think it was an incredibly poor decision to phrase it that way.

      Just because you don't believe in creationism, that doesn't mean that, as someone in a position of power, you get to ridicule those who do. Say there's no evidence to back it up, fine. But there really isn't any call to ridicule someone else's beliefs.

    • 2 years ago
  • ras_menelik
  • kennymotown
  • donkeyfly69
    • 0
      donkeyfly69  
    • just because someone believes in it does not mean it's NOT superstitious nonsense.

      are you saying we can't make fun of those wow kids who treat that as a religion?

    • 2 years ago
  • shanklinmike
    • 0
      shanklinmike  
    • Freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion! I wish these religious freaks and these atheists would just cool off for a second and realize that they are fighting an unending battle. Both of these sides are crazies for defending both sides! You can't 100% prove anything about the beginning of time. As long as people realize that adaptation occurs, who cares if something created us or if we just blew up into existence. What a pointless argument, defending either side!

    • 2 years ago
  • uroborus8
  • numinant
  • Kuklamania
  • jubal
    • 0
      jubal  
    • shanklinmike:

      I get your point shanklinmike, the energy from fighting and defending a position could be channeled instead into creating understanding, respect, and peaceful coexistence.

    • 2 years ago
  • uroborus8
    • 0
      uroborus8  
    • He should have stopped at the word religious. I agree that creationism is superstitious nonsense, but once we let teachers make judgments about religion we have to allow teachers to say creationism is scientifically credible too.

    • 2 years ago
  • bluestranger
  • lrmj
  • current89
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