"Proselytizing Atheists? Don't that beat all."

The word proselytizing minus the religion is merely putting forth a view point. Don't use it as a buzzword, disregarding its definition as a way of fallaciously passing on negative connotation.

"And really, deeming to lump everyone into their nice little categories and say that because you believe in a supreme being/force that you don't enjoy your life?"
Speaking of lumping people together! lol.
Who is saying this? Oh, its just a generalization. Pretty ironic to accuse others of lumping people into groups and generalizing when you do that exact thing in the same sentence.

"Arrogance to the extreme."
Might want to take this last statement to heart.

If you've lived your whole life being alive, it's hard to imagine anything different.

even though you've lived your whole life being alive, before you were conceived, you were nothing. it wasn't so bad not existing before, so it can't be too bad to go back to that. i already have infinite experience of non-existing. i must be pretty good at it.

We can't die, we're too pretty.

OK here's my argument supporting the existence of God. I won't say "prove that there isn't one," because I think that's sort of a lame cop-out.

Science stalls out before the big bang. We really just don't know how all the gases and particles that led to the big bang (which we're pretty sure happened) came to exist in the first place. The only solid theory is called String Theory and Super-String Theory. I won't go into the details of it, suffice it to say that astrophysicists theorize that infinitesimally small strings vibrate at infinitely many frequencies, producing infinitely many forms of the stages of matter. One string-theorist mused that it was like (paraphrased) "...the universe as we know it today might be the by-product of the music of God's thought." Pretty neat, huh?

But here's the catch: suppose these strings really do exist, and there really are 10 (it might be 11 now) dimensions of reality. Where did the strings come from? Did anything exist before the strings? What are the strings made of? For me, it boils down consistently to something HAVING to have been created. Enter: God.

Ares, just because we don't understand something doesn't mean God has to have made it. A good example is thinking that God (or the gods) creates the weather. We know now it's all a vastly complex system of mainly driven by solar isolation. (Causing evaporation, convection, etc.) We can predict with some degree of accuracy what the weather will be. we can say, definitively, (unless you say "God created it in the beginning, so therefore everything since is God's creation) that God does not make the weather.

The beauty about atheism is that there is uncertainty. No, we don't have all the answers. Yes, our world view can change when confronted with sufficient evidence that is contrary to what it has been in the past. Yet we don't turn to mystical teachings for guidance--we simply soldier on and try to understand more and more of the unknown.

I'm not denying that there could be a god out there, or a being we would consider so far above our power and conprehension it is considered godly. However, I see no reason whatsoever to think that it's a) anything like any of the gods described in any religion to date, b)concerned with us in any way, shape or form, and c) likely to exist at all.

I'm not alleging that atheists think that they, individually, are the most important person ever, what I mean to convey is that the absence of a belief in a higher power lends one to think that atheists think that human beings as a whole are the most powerful/important/unique creatures in our planet's history.

As for your seven-headed monster metaphor, you've lost me.

The metaphor was that God is so unlikely that I don't have to worry about it being true. Just as me being a seven headed monster on the other side of the screen is very unlikely, so is the existence of some all-powerful all-knowing God. Or, honestly, any of the "supernatural" things that people claim.

I can see how that (us being the most important beings in the universe) could be a conclusion, but I see humans as animals who have learned how to control their environment very, very well. We simply have evolved the proper biological advantages and skill sets to do things like invent electricity and religion and concrete logical thought and writing and the wheel, and put them all to use consistently.

Im agnostic as well and personally I dont want atheists or agnostics to preach and try and convert. The desire to convert is one of the things I hate most about organized religion. Spirituality or lack of it should be personal matter and if you want to discuss with other like minded individuals thats fine, but dont try and make others see things your way.

I get that totally. Just keep it out of my face etc... And then who cares.

But when all world leaders are using religion as a rallying call to war, and your country's policy decisions are made by people who put beliefs first and reason second, then religion starts to become alot more offensive.

I don't have the crusading spirit of some though. I just like to wax argumentitive on here and feel like I'm changing the world.

I should be working.

I'm an agnostic as well, but I am also an atheist.

The words agnostic/gnostic is regarding the knowledge(certainty in a claim) that you claim to have. And in this case the lack of certainty in a claim. Without evidence for or against a claim I don't feel you can honestly claim knowledge of it. So I am agnostic to the claim that god exists.

But the words atheist/theist is regarding belief. Belief being whether you accept the claim that a god exists or not. And since I do not accept that claim I am also an atheist.

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive, and one is not a stronger version of the other. They are regarding different thing.

I don't care what other people beleive so long as they leave me alone about it.

Now that Atheists have gone Evangelical, they piss me off than the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Southern Baptists combined.

At least those who are "certain" God exists are somewhat polite when they try to convert you.

@ asherp

I take it you never put forth your view on any matter publicly? If you do you are just being hypocritical.

Be sure not to or you are doing exactly what you dislike about these other groups that make their view known regarding religion.

Too bad. They're running the world. We're screwed.

Because faith, as much as you may want to say it is false, gives relief, and that is not inconsequential to someone with nothing else. Experience does not always make one feel as good as believing that all of life's suffering will be made worth while.

As for faith, people just don't have the guts to actually deal with reality, so they call on their "God" to relieve their stress....

That is the true meaning of faith.....

"Because faith, as much as you may want to say it is false, gives relief, and that is not inconsequential to someone with nothing else."

Whether something makes you feel good or not does not effect the truth value of its claims. Faith is for those who care more to be comforted than to hold true beliefs.

@4saken
And your point is...?

@timlfrench

I made my point timlfrench. ;)

Whether accepting a claim makes you feel good or not doesn't change its truth value one bit.

Everyone who has criticized me needs to realize that I am an American. I have the right NOT to agree with you.

That right goes both ways. Don't believe that you're taking the "logical high-ground" by calling religious beliefs "fairy tales" and "nonsense." You're just a douche.

"Don't believe that you're taking the "logical high-ground" by calling religious beliefs "fairy tales" and "nonsense.""

The strength of your logic includes the validity of the premises. Accepting bronze age mythology as the premise for your line of reasoning does make it quite weak. If it makes me a douche bag in your eyes to point that out then so be it..

I thought about giving you a legitimate response... but then i saw your username.

BOOOYAAAH!

the same could be said for Christians. Come on... WWJD wristbands, cross necklaces, a plethora of t-shirts, bumper stickers, Jesus fish placards....the list goes on. Christians really have a stronghold on religious marketing.

The cross is an important symbol to most Christians because it stands for something. Christians believe in something. Atheists don't, they have nothing to claim belief in, save the various theories science has given us, both fact and fiction. That's why so many atheists come off as smug assholes to me, just like I'm sure if I were walking around with a cross on my shirt and a WWJD bracelet, I would be perceived as a douche to most atheists. (For the record, I don't own any such articles).

"Who gives a shit?"

People who care about questioning their beliefs in order to hold correct ones. If you don't care about the opposing position to your point of view you don't care about the validity of your point of view. Your statement is quite showing.

"The cross is an important symbol to most Christians because it stands for something. "

Yeah it's great isn't it, a torture symbol and all.

"Christians believe in something. Atheists don't"

Atheists believe in many things, however the title atheist does not describe any of those beliefs. You must be out of your mind to believe an atheist individual accepts NO claims whatsoever. The title atheist is merely a reaction to theism, it doesn't define us, it is only required when dealing with you folks.

"...they have nothing to claim belief in, save the various theories science has given us, both fact and fiction."

It is very sad if the only claims you accept are ones put forth by your bronze age mythology. If you do accept other claims(have other beliefs) then why are you so ignorant as to assert that an individual who lacks the belief in a god would not also accept those claims?

"That's why so many atheists come off as smug assholes to me, just like I'm sure if I were walking around with a cross on my shirt and a WWJD bracelet, I would be perceived as a douche to most atheists."

Actually all you'd need to do is open your mouth and state how you perceive them, and what types of generalizations you've made about them to be perceived as a douche-bag.

If you come into every conversation with atheists spouting the type of nonsense you have here then you can expect to get a worse and worse impression of atheists in the future. And I can see why you would consider them smug assholes now, because they were just reacting to your garbage assumptions and generalizations. Because when you are start off by provoking people, no matter who they are, you're starting off on the wrong foot.

religion isn't defined by rituals and traditions. atheists generally don't because they don't really believe there's any reason to follow rituals and traditions. having beliefs is what makes it a religion.

Unprovable, untestable beliefs at that.

odd this perception you have about atheists thinking they are "the most important being that has ever existed"? the lack of belief in a god does not catapult the non believer to god status? in fact.. the christian has this "made in god's image' mentality that can be a bit much to a non believer..
i'm agnostic and don't really belittle anyones belief nor care for atheist's who "preach" and expect all to share their lack of belief.. I do very much dislike the ties of religion and government and like to see non believer's unite, organize and promote the concept that it's ok to not believe in god .. organized religions have shown to be anything but righteous and combined with greed are downright evil in their tax free profits and population controlling missions of fear

First of all i dont believe I am "the most important being to ever exist"... in fact i dont think any sane person thinks that. Why does lack of belief in god = god status? Also, is it really that difficult for you to believe that this is all there is to life? Is it so hard to believe that each life is special and unique?

Im just curious do you find personal freedoms important? So why is it that when a group of people as large as the african american community gets ZERO representation in government no one cares? How is it that when us Atheists grow sick of the intrusion of religion in Government and we call it out we get called whiners? Hell Bush senior didnt even consider atheists citizens. But hey i guess it could be worse... we could still be getting murdered by the church for being "heretics'.

"Woe is the American Atheist. Forgive me if I'm not so conceited that I believe I'm the most important being that has ever existed, nor am I so short-sighted as to think that this blink of an existence is all there is to life."

The first part of that is merely a strawman, your idea of what atheists believe. Which is inaccurate. The second part is based on your desire for an afterlife. It's not shortsighted to accept reality. It only looks short sighted to you to accept reality because you have attached this fantasy afterlife from your religion.

"It is equally perplexing that Atheists condemn creationism (in any regard) while simultaneously refuting the possibility that "nothing" ever existed. You can't prove either one, I don't understand what makes you all think you're right."

But we know something exists now. There is evidence for it. You are the one claiming that at some point there was a state in which nothing existed. Do you have evidence for that? How about energy and matter being destroyed or created at all? No?

"Of course I understand that some people of faith are just as self-righteous, but I suppose it just irks me that Atheists think they're different in their sanctimonious attitude."

Sounds like you've gotten your feeling hurt by someone criticizing your beliefs. And then took that as them trying to seem righteous or holier-than-thou. And now have taken that and made a blanket statement for all people who lack the belief in god. Now that is what we call short sighted. ;)

care to elaborate?

Not all atheists dislike religion because they put forth their point of view regarding religion(proselytize). Why must you assume that they do? I have far better reasons for not believing in a god and not liking what religion does than the mere fact that they publicly put forth their religious views.

Organized athiests? It does seem a bit strange, however, at this point I would join.

Luck is just as foolish a thing to believe in as God.

It pisses me off when people are Atheists but believe in supernatural bullshit like Good Luck, or Ghosts.

Naw, I don't believe in luck, I am glad i caught your attention though, but what I believe in is unknown...

"It pisses me off when people are Atheists but believe in supernatural bullshit like Good Luck, or Ghosts."

asharp, why exactly does that piss you off? An atheist can believe in whatever supernatural stuff(other than a deity) they want and still fall under the definition of the word atheist. Most atheists don't believe in much supernatural stuff but the word atheist say nothing about anything else that they lack a belief in other than when it comes to a god.

God is actually one of the least likely to be true supernatural claims that one could accept, especially the self contradictory Abrahamic god. So your assumption that just because one does not accept the claim that a deity exists that it therefor follows that they don't believe in anything supernatural at all is just foolish.

I'm an atheist but I still scream at my car if it doesn't start.

Or talk about bad luck.

I can still romantacise the world I live in.

I don't tell my girlfriend I don't really love her, because it's just a bunch of chemical impulses.

And a flower is just as pretty even if it wasn't designed.

i can understand the wonder but why the fear and trembling?

Prove Atheism is correct.

You can't.

There is no scientific way to prove non-existence.

If you can't prove the non-existence of God, which you can't any more than you can prove God does exist, then you must take it on faith, and faith is the bedrock of religion.

Atheism=Religion
Period

That's assuming there is equal probability of both. a 50/50 split.

Is there?

just NOT believing sounds more like indifference to me, or not quite having made up your mind on what your opinion is... like agnosticism or skepticism. but atheists generally have a very clear idea of what they do and don't believe, not just indecision and unaffiliation.

"Atheism is NOT a belief"
That's true, belief means to accept a claim. Not believing in a god is not accepting any claim that is being put forth, it is merely not accepting the claim that a god exists.

The following is directed at timlfrench.

"Prove Atheism is correct.

You can't."

It depends on what type of proof you are talking about. There are 2 types of proof, evidential proof and absolute proof. Absolute proof is only used in mathematics and logic, while evidential proof is used in places like court, and is based on evidence. You are likely using proof as a buzzword. Since you are not talking about absolute proof clearly, you must be talking about evidential proof. In a dichotomy like this the lack of any definitive evidence for the existence of god, and the fact that it hasn't even been defined with a primary attribute, combined with its extraordinary claims and internal inconsistencies makes the claim that god exists very unlikely. And that's what really matters when we are talking about evidential proof.

"If you can't prove the non-existence of God, which you can't any more than you can prove God does exist, then you must take it on faith, and faith is the bedrock of religion."

There must be a claim being put forth that is being accepted for it to be a belief, and it must be accepted based on nothing for it to be faith. However not accepting the claim that a god exists is not accepting any claim that is being put forth, it is NOT accepting one.

Most atheists would not even accept the claim that absolutely no god exists if the claim was put forth to them. In the same way we wouldn't accept the claim that no Unicorns exist either. Neither has evidence to support them.

If you think it takes faith to not accept the claim that god exists then you must also believe that it takes faith to not accept the claim that unicorns or leprechauns exist. Which is also wrong. Merely saying "no you don't have any evidence to support your claim therefor I'm not accepting it" is neither a belief nor involves faith. Sorry. It is funny tho how your first line of attack is just trying to bring the opposition down to your position's level(as being religion or faith based), doesn't say much for your position does it... ;)

@4saken
Not excepting a belief is belief, belief in the fallacy of the of the first belief. If you simply didn't except the idea of God then you probably wouldn't be bothered fighting for your belief, for lack of any other word that even comes close to defining what we're talking about. You would read the article and move on with out posting a comment. Because, who cares?

Religion does not require belief in a godhead or performance of ritual, only that people believe something. You could found a religion on the idea that "green means go" and it would be as valid as any other. Including Atheism.

It's a very good and important thing that people question religious beliefs, but to really make it work we must question our own just as strongly and not assume that just because it makes sense to us that it is correct. Logic and faith don't always mix so well, and the funniest thing is that Atheists refuse to see that that is exactly what they are doing.

@ timlfrench

"Religion does not require belief in a godhead or performance of ritual, only that people believe something."

You seem to be very confused regarding what a religion is. I guess that's why you could conclude that merely rejecting a claim can be a religion. Try looking religion up in multiple dictionaries so you can understand what makes a belief into a religion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Merely believing something, accepting a claim, or rejecting a claim in the case of atheism does not make it a religion. Tho I'm glad you said it, that is one of the funnier misunderstandings I've heard this week.

"You could found a religion on the idea that "green means go" and it would be as valid as any other. Including Atheism."

You could turn any ideal into a religion, however that ideal itself is not a religion, just as atheism is not a religion. A group of atheists could go past what is defined by the word atheism and turn it into a religion by adopting a fundamental set of beliefs, dogma, rituals and practices. However all that would not be defined by the word atheist, because the word atheist only talks about the single trait of an individual who lacks the belief in a deity.

So go find/make a new word that defines more than a lack of belief in a deity, as in traits that would make it be considered a religion, and then you can accurately say that all those people are part of a religion.

"Logic and faith don't always mix so well, and the funniest thing is that Atheists refuse to see that that is exactly what they are doing."

You claim that is what atheists are doing, and that's about it. Why do I have to explain this again to you? Did you ignore what I said or did it just not seep in? *sigh*... To have faith in something you must be accepting a claim(having a belief) and that belief must have no basis to be considered faith. The word atheists merely says that the individual rejects the claim that a god exists(lacks the belief in god). The word atheist does not say that the individual accepts the claim that no gods could exist. Read the last 2 sentences again if you don't get it, it's not that complex.

Hopefully that clears it up for you. If not you are clearly not interested in fixing your misconceptions and lack of understanding for the words you are attempting to use.

With signs put up that say things like:
"At this season of the winter solstice, may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
Atheist groups have talked there fair of shit. You can't ask people to respect your beliefs and then tell them their beliefs are "myth and superstition." It's just rude.

So its not ok for atheists to explain their beliefs in such a manner? Interesting seeing as how christians believe atheists to be non-believers who are going to spend an eternity in torment. Sorry that the truth hurts.

You can explain your beliefs anyway you want, but do you have to denigrate the beliefs of others to do it?
When I saw that message, I was disappointed to see that a group claiming to represent Atheists was acting just like an oppressive religion, that's all.
I have nothing against Atheism, it's as valid a belief as anything else, but it's one thing to say "what I believe is right" and another thing to say "what you believe is wrong" and the people who claim to represent Atheism seem to being that a lot. You can't call someone out for doing something you think is wrong while doing the same thing.
That's all.
Really, that sums up all of my arguments on this subject. Other than that, I really couldn't care less about any religion, yours, mine or anyone's.
Thanks for the spirited discussion (no pun intended)

Religion is seen by the poor as true, by the wealthy: false; and by the powerful: useful.

Dentist

Very nice quote. I approve.

Dentist's quote is certainly not a truism.

Atheism is more a misnomer to me than anything.

You will find folks of any labeling acting in a manner that could be coined as religious. Because all you need to find are folks who are ignorant of the group they are apart of and are very vocal of their group.

These people are in activist groups, religious groups, political groups, you name it.

The thin about Atheism is that 'theoretically' the people in it aren't busy trying to prove the non-existence of god because that's now what you do.

You don't try to prove something doesn't exist, if you cannot prove it does you do not assume it does. It is that simple, if someone came up and said "Ubonium" was a real element but could provide no evidence the entire science community would not gather to battle this new claim it would merely ignore it.

But as it stands you basically described every group in the united states in an effort to make a clever point. Which in turn made it a bit fail.

Atheism is not a religion! At least not according to our dogma. I would like to invite to join the First Church of Sacred Disbelief. We strongly believe the no beliefs are valid. NONE!

Wait a minute...

Because atheism is the DISbelief of any divine or supernatural powers.

most atheists say that it's lack of religion, but you can't really base a group like that from an absence of belief... saying that it's everyone who doesn't believe in god includes the undecided, unaffiliated, and even babies who don't have the mental capacity to even consider the existence of god, but no one thinks of them as atheists. i think atheism is a religion, but a very loose one. or maybe i'm just overthinking a simplified definition.

Atheists claim to be more scientific or whatever, but they feel that they have proof that God doesn't exist.

That's not how science works.

You don't prove the existence or non-existence of anything in science. You create tests.

Atheists never define the God that they are so certain doesn't exist.

Moreover, most Atheists make their claims in a knee-jerk reaction to a specific fundamentalist Christianity, which is silly, because it's as though they are ignorant of all the other religions out there. Such as Taoism, which is based around observation of principals of the natural world, such as biology and physics.

If you don't even know what you are testing for, there's no way you're going to find any evidence one way or the other.

Lastly, the idea of God or Gods or whatever, is beyond the ability for science to even test for.

The best claim that anybody can actually make, is "I don't know."

Atheists claim certainty that God doesn't exist, which is just as foolish as those who claim that they are certain God does.

Atheists do not claim to have proof god does not exist.

Atheists claim there is no proof for god's existence, hence they do not believe in God.

Atheism asserts nothing. Atheism is simply the unwillingness to accept the existence of God for lack of sufficient evidence.