A cancerous conspiracy to poison your faith in organic food

to ricky84
what's your issue? our tastebuds?
i eat organic because i want to.
i eat organic not because of what you think, or penn gillette and his ham-handed approach thinks.
a bag of doritos tastes better than a plain baked potatao - is it better for you?
it just happens that organic growers aren't responsible for leeching harmful, synthesized, petroleum based chemicals into the water supply.
if you want to eat non-organic be my guest.
if you want to get your "facts" on food from this guy, please do.
i've felt better since i stopped eating meat and gone organic. i'm healthier - my blood pressure is down, my energy is up.
if you want to swallow the "better living through chemistry" mantra - that's your prerogative.

you're missing his point. people try to claim that organic food somehow always tastes better. It is not wrong it just lacks any testable evidence. Therefore, do what you want if it makes you happy.

I dont eat meat, I am usually pretty liberal, I care deeply for the environment, I have written about the damages of factory farming and benefits of organic farming, I have an organic garden (it is no till, btw ricky84) and I just simply do not buy into the overpriced organic food market. I think its absurd at most and at the least severely overpriced.

Ricky84 is simply telling you to watch a video about an interesting and tricky taste test. Watch it first and then comment, k?

The Penn and Teller episode did a good job on the taste testing. Watch that episode.

Organic food lost.

Maybe the mind thinks it tastes better cause you paid so much more for it? idk.

Thats moronic.

A) two peoples little show will not determine which food is better, too much room for bias and agendas (this goes for the lefties and righties in the room)

B) Taste is about personal tastes and some peoples taste buds are just wired differently, hence why some people eat things like liver and artichokes, and i would throw up at the idea.

C) vegetables and plants often taste of what and where they were grown, grow an apple in a trash heap and it would probably be nasty, grow it in a open field with clean water and air, and it would be good.

all in all there are too many variables to argue over taste, the only thing in question about organic food is ethics (big farms and standard production pollutes more, you cannot argue this one it is a FACT) and personal ideals.

let's go one step further, two pieces of fruit from the same tree or two veg from the same vine can taste different.
if i wait too long to pick lettuce, it will taste bitter. if i get it when it's young, it's nirvanna.
and personal preference certainly does come into play.

somehow, as always, the length of the discussion will determine how far away from the original topic these threads stray.
and this one is way off track.

I agree. Any fruit, vegetable or grain grown without the interference of artificial fertilizers destroying the natural plant produced enzymes will have to taste better. Because human RNA, and DNA is evolved from natural foods, not artificialy grown foods. So we are all keyed to respond to them as we should. When I ate vegetarian in 1976, and shed most of the poisons that accumulated by eating fruit regularly, an orange bursted with flavor that I never tasted when my body was poluted. If people smoke cigarettes, eat meat, or use artificial pharmaceuticals, it will alter your body chemistry enough to prevent you from fully appreciating nature's goodness. Penn & Teller be damned. Those clowns seek to rationalize their own prejudices. They're not natural scientists.
Most of the people who eat naturaly grown foods, and
thereby keep their bodies free of chemical dumping agree that eating organic tastes better,simply because
they're all on the same page to correctly read what their senses tell them. If in your opinion you disagree, noone's going to stop you from having a dissonant opinion, but ther facts are the facts, however you wish
to interpret them.

I agree with you that vegetables just harvested is vey tasty makes us happy. I personally have small plot near my apartment and cultivate some vegetables, and I am enjoying vegetables that I harvest from that small piece of land. I hate the use of pesticides. If there are reliable alternatives for those chemicals, it would be none sense to use harmful chemicals. Problem here is that some alternates for chemicals are not reliable. The control of qualities are really problematic. Some cure-all-things end up with cure-nothing. There are so many things like that these days. They try to make money in the name of "organic". We need to work on this problem very seriously. In my small plots I never use any pesticide. Some times insects and diseases come. I ignore them. They don't spread much and disappear. In the large farms they cannot do that, perhaps in the fear that damages would become unbearable, I guess. The efforts you are making is worthwhile. I support your efforts.

Ok so let’s look at the differences between your website and what the EPA website actually says.

Your site-“Changes in these hormone levels affect developing organisms more than adults and can result in abnormalities in reproduction, growth, and development, as well as cancer and immune system disorders, even at very low levels of exposure.”

EPA- “A variety of chemicals have been found to disrupt the endocrine systems of animals in laboratory studies, and compelling evidence shows that endocrine systems of certain fish and wildlife have been effected by chemical contaminants, resulting in developmental and reproductive problems. However, the relationship of human diseases of the endocrine system and exposure to environmental contaminants is poorly understood and scientifically controversial.
The science related to measuring and demonstrating endocrine disruption is in its' infancy, so validated methods of testing that indicate specific effects of an endocrine disruptor are still being developed. The Endocrine Disruption Screening Program (EDSP) is mandated to use validated methods for the screening and testing chemicals to identify potential endocrine disruptors, determine adverse effects, dose-response, assess risk and ultimately manage risk under current laws. These methods or assays once developed and validated should allow EPA to identify and characterize the endocrine activity (specifically, estrogen, androgen and thyroid) of pesticides, commercial chemicals, and environmental contaminants. While EPA has some data on endocrine-disrupting pesticides, currently insufficient scientific data are available on most of the estimated 87,000 chemicals produced today to allow for an evaluation of of endocrine associated risks.”

There’s a clear difference between what your website says and what the EPA site say. Really this is a perfect example of how environmentalists shoot themselves in the foot. Whether it’s population or pesticides, chemicals, or whatever some of you guys make wild, unsubstantiated claims in direct conflict with the scientific community.

Invariably some of the claims made by the more rabid environmentalists turn out to be wrong. So no matter how many times you’re actually right about something you always maintain a shit for credibility status. You guys need to seriously police your own ranks and stop allowing other environmentalists to pass ideas or speculation as set in stone facts.

"Experts warn that the "cocktail effect" of so many different chemicals endangers health. They also point out that some of the pesticides are not only cancer-causing but also so-called "gender-benders" - chemicals that disrupt human sexuality.”

I got this from the American Cancer Society.

“Do pesticides in foods cause cancer?

Pesticides and herbicides can be toxic when used improperly in industrial, agricultural, or other occupational settings. Although vegetables and fruits sometimes contain low levels of these chemicals, overwhelming scientific evidence supports the overall health benefits and cancer-protective effects of eating vegetables and fruits. At present there is no evidence that residues of pesticides and herbicides at the low doses found in foods increase the risk of cancer, but fruits and vegetables should be washed thoroughly before eating.”

“The FSA published a report last week casting doubt on the health benefits of eating organic food, which is mostly produced without pesticides.”

Organic food is MOSTLY produced without pesticides? I’d like to see the source for that. The fact of the matter is that organic farmers big and small use pesticides all the time. In fact like all farmers are utterly dependent on pesticides to remain in business.
I took this from the European Crop Protection Association.

“Nearly half of the pesticides listed for use by organic farmers under the EU’s Organic Regulation[1] have not passed their safety evaluation under the EU’s review under Directive 91/414/EEC. This will present a new challenge to both organic farmers who have few options in their fight against pests and to the crop protection industry which provides their pest management solutions.

The EU has, however, authorised a number of pesticides commonly used in organic farming under the framework of the EU’s review of plant protection active substances. These include copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, copper sulphate and Bordeaux mixture (copper sulphate and calcium hydroxide) which are used as bactericides and fungicides. These are particularly important for grapes and a number of other crops sold as organic.”

“The crop protection industry provides a full variety of plant protection products, both chemical and biological, that are safe for use in all types of farming,” said Schmider. “The industry continues to look for new solutions that meet both the EU’s standards for plant protection products and our food supply needs.”

“We are concerned, however, about sustaining Europe’s ability to maintain a sufficient and affordable food supply if too many pest management solutions are lost too quickly. Crop production losses, price increases and pest resistance are a few of the possibilities we have highlighted. Great care and due diligence will be required in the implementation of this legislation if European agriculture is to reliably produce the food required to maintain our quality of life,” added Schmider.”

That’s a lot of talk about pesticides from a group that mostly doesn’t need pesticides.

You actually are probably getting sick because non-organic foods tend to be grown on large farms, with no restrooms for workers, resulting in infections of e-coli among others to the vegetables and fruit.

where as with organic foods the farms TEND to be smaller and more personal to the grower resulting in better working conditions and more hand washing/waste disposal concerns being met.

Only if you use 'chemicals' as a blanket term for anything bad that could be used to grow plants. All plants are grown with chemicals, just in different forms.

If you're talking about pesticide use--organic farms use pesticides too.

I won't eat non organic liver anymore. back about fifteen years ago I was lifting weights and eating a lot of liver and I think I actually got a steroid reaction from the stuff. Feed lot beef is scary.

You are absolutely ignorant about this topic.There is most certainly a difference between natural food and GMOs. Not only in their makeup, but the pesticides used on them. Get your own head out of your ass and read something for once.

A difference which you've never been able to demonstrate and foods that are genetically modified well instead of the bullshit Monsanto does don't even NEED pesticides.

I understand plenty about biology and genetics. Enough to understand when you screw around with nature you usually get some desired effects and some undesired effects. That's just the way things go. If you need science to help you understand "they way things go" you are in trouble. Everything cannot be understood through science. Sometimes we have to stop thinking we are smarter than nature because we are nowhere close! You enjoy your GMO's my friend.

Sooooo you understand biology and genetics but you still can't even name -one- specific reason as to why organics are superior in any way?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you don't have a fucking clue how any of this works and probably don't care.

You've just written science off cart blanche to support your baseless assertions, regardless of how anything actually works.

The reasoning is conspiratorial, oooooo something "might" be wrong with it. If you were worried about that, you wouldn't use ANYTHING modern civilization offers because the same absurd suspicions apply.

it's too bad we can't vote him off the island

wwellll technically an organic foods fan wouldn't be that big on koolaid... You have to admit it isn't exactly food colored.

Also iirc Gore isn't particularly into organic food. He does like sustainable agriculture to some degree, and he's not a global warming fan, but his ideas are not being expressed here. You're too used to that peacefreedomteddybearhuggateria kibbutz that sleazes around pretending to be news. Those guys have their heads so far up Ron Paul's butt crack they shiver when he breaks wind.

I don't even remember the last time Al Gore was mentioned by name around here, but trust the Ron Paulists to ALWAYS have exactly two stories in the top twenty at all times, at least one of which generally mentions either Ron Paul or one of his supporters. usually it's just an office press release.

This is absolutely nothing like that, even if it might theoretically be just as silly.

here we go again with a moron using the K word.

what does al gore have to do with org...oh right..moron, my bad

Penn and Teller? People are actually listening to Las Vegas lounge "magicians" regarding this? Now I've heard it all.

self-proclaimed experts on bullshit i believe

Wow way to underrate the skeptical mindset.

At any rate Penn and Teller did an excellent job with the organics episode. Like most episodes they focused primilarily on the popular anti-scientific misconceptions found within the organic community.

which anti-scientific misconceptions would those be?

Best to watch it for the answer. There is a link on sidereel if anyone feels like putting on their cutlasses and tricornered hats.

http://www.sidereel.com/Penn_%26_Teller%3A_Bullshit!/_season/7/_episode/6/_search

I don't know when it will be on next or if there is a more politically correct link around. There's always iTunes i suppose.

You can find all the Penn and Teller episodes at surfthechannel.com along with like everything else to ever air on tv.

Anyways bombastinator is right. You should probably just watch the episode. I don't want to condense thirty minutes of television into four thousand characters and even if I did I probably wouldn’t do the show any justice.

I watched that penn and teller episode and fuck them. That was ridiculous. They act like there's no good reason that people grow food organically. They didn't bother talking about reuse of resources, less energy inputs, building of the land, biological pest management, less erosion, sustainability, etc.

They summed up the organic fertilizer by saying it was all cow shit. They ignored that the cow shit is a waste product, essentially free because of production of milk and beef, and yet they still stupidly try to blame organic farming for methane coming out of their asses. But instead, as a scare tactic, they mention how much bacteria is in cow shit! No SHIT!! That's why you don't apply fresh manure! Everyone knows you don't shit on a plant and expect that to be safe.

They ignored how much of a problem use of chemical fertilizer can be. It is economical and it is plentiful and thats the main reason why people think more is better and then it washes away into our waterways. It doesnt bother to acknowledge that organic farming builds up the soils and prevents erosion through composting and mulching and any fertilizers that are used are typically slow release so leaching is not as big as an issue.

Basically the whole show was talking about the bad sides of organic without even thinking that maybe there is a reason why people do it still. Organic food is better for the earth than chemically fertilized plots of land. Stewardship of the land is the key. It is just a shame that something so fundamental to farming also results in ridiculous prices.

Yeah Penn and Teller slammed the hell out of organic food and for good reason. Although organic food can in very specific situations be beneficial to the earth it’s an outdated and inadaquent means of food production. Organic food will never feed the world, it’s not healthier than conventional or GMO food, it’s not necessarily tastier than conventional food and it still creates pollution. It’s a system that’s slowly evolving through selective breeding and cultivation, trying to justify its existence OVER a rapidly developing and extremely promising system that just happens to be better for humanity and much more adaptive to a changing world and our growing needs.
The WHOLE point of the show was that we should use science and technology to solve the problems organic food can’t, not that organic food was worthless. Why do you think there were so many religious overtones to the episode? They were trying to draw comparison between the vocal proponents of intelligent design and abstinence based education to organic scaremongers.
If you’re not familiar with the show or the opinions of Penn and Teller than I can understand how you could get turned around. For future reference keep in mind Peen and teller are hardcore libertarian atheists. They completely agree with the philosophy of live and let live but they understandably go ape shit when a bunch of non-scientists try to tell the scientific community what’s what.
“They summed up the organic fertilizer by saying it was all cow shit. They ignored that the cow shit is a waste product, essentially free because of production of milk and beef, and yet they still stupidly try to blame organic farming for methane coming out of their asses.”
That’s not really the point. As they described later on in the episode you can’t use a worldwide organic system to feed seven billion and even if it could the entire system is reliant on shit. So it’s incredibly ironic in a time where we’re suppose to cut back on our meat consumption (because it’s bad for the environment) to then claim we need to adopt massive operation that’s completely and utterly reliant on shit.
“It doesnt bother to acknowledge that organic farming builds up the soils and prevents erosion through composting and mulching and any fertilizers that are used are typically slow release so leaching is not as big as an issue.”
Prevents and not as big an issue doesn’t mean it’s no longer an issue and it certainly does not mean we should stop exploring better means of doing things. At any rate your argument sounds exactly like the justification behind corn based ethanol. All your going to do is shift the source of the pollution from the food itself to the army of cows shitting and eating like crazy to support our entire organic food system.

The shit will be produced by every livestock animal regardless. Why shouldn't we close the loop and fertilize with the waste products? I know meat is bad and I don't eat it but chicken, cows, pigs, horses, and all the other animals are gonna shit. Not just any amount of shit--an enormous amount. Something like 10x as much as humans. So there's plenty of shit to go around.

Most farmers have livestock as well as crops so it makes sense for farmers to use manure. I am not claiming that organic food should be the only method around or that the farming system should be totally reliant on shit (although there is plenty to go around), but there is a common ground here that could benefit everyone. I have grown chemically and organic and chemical always wins out in fertilizer versatility, taste, color, and yield. What I really think should be happening is the combination of organic land stewardship techniques not just in some specific situations but on all farms. Organic techniques should take precedent and then chemical supplements could be applied thereafter ensuring that it was used as necessary and efficiently as possible (which should happen anyway). This goes for fertilizer and especially in pesticide use. Farms should use intercropping (if possible), crop rotation, pest management programs (IPM, biological), companion planting, mulching, etc These ideas should come as a first resort because they are the natural and economical!! From there chemical supplement could be added or pesticides could be used if it was determined to be necessary or the other programs are ineffective.

remember the dust bowl? let's take care of our
topsoil.

organic growing IS better for the earth. No debating that. Reusing waste products is sustainable, mulching with compost that is readily available and free is also sustainable and takes very little energy. Mulching and manure creates layers of topsoil which prevents erosion (combined with other planting techniques). The only problem is that it doesn't produce as much food unless you really pile it on.

I’m not so sure about the manure thing. If you really want to protect against soil erosion and leeching then you want to go no till, and for the record organic is not necessarily no-till produced. In any case manure plays a diminished role in a no-till garden/farm because when placed on the surface instead of actively mixed into the soil it breaks down too fast and you end up losing a lot of nitrogen.
Personally I’d like to see more animal waste used in anaerobic digestion as a cleaner source of electricity. There are also a few people looking into using manure as a food source for algae farms that could possibly provide a safer and more nutritious food source for farm animals.
As far as everything else goes I agree. We should use as many environmentally friendly techniques as possible but I just don’t see the benefit in using organic fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides and crops for a global system. Even when you only use organic the difference between environmentally safe and not comes down to technique.

yes they do.
while it may be true that 'nutritionally', organic and non-organic are the same, it's just the tip of the iceberg.
grow your own, buy locally whenever possible and know your grower.
part of the downfall of our foodstream is this crazy notion that we should be able to eat whatever we want, whenever we want to.