Is this a woman who needs help or an abuser with violent past?

insightful Abe' solve guilt and I guess we're all done.

y'know, it used to be said it takes a Village to raise a child. they also used to say, no man is an island. Yes there are consequences for the many forms denial certainly takes, for ALL of us.

The bible says, to whom much is given, much is required. I believe that too.

Yes, bullpcp, it is indeed an escape of some sort. Denial is used to avoid responsibility and thereby "get away with it."
The greater pain of facing the ugly history and admitting guilt and experienceing the guilt is important for developing a healthy psyche. Ongoing denial leads to repeated transgressions and causes the person to remain mired in sudden, new projects and trips and involvements; anything, as long as not admitting guilt is the outcome.
Therefore, it is better to accept the guilt and admit, much like going to Confession. Face it, feel the pain, experience the embarrassment and get on with life with less tension and stress afterwards. It is still far better than constant denial and constant anxiety even though on the surface, the guilt is never admitted. There are consequences for denial.

Why is the recognition of the unethical nature of abdicating responsibility for personal failures or mistakes any indication of the need to recognize the distinction between stigma, a specific form of disincentive, and general disincentives?

It is neither patronizing nor demeaning to assume that people that are third or fourth generation welfare recipients do not regard relying on assistance as an inherent disincentive. Stigma is seldom either necessary or constructive but there are extreme circumstances where blithe acceptance is even less constructive or even actively destructive. Not everyone wants to work or avoids handouts.

How are people one weeks wages away from welfare for the mindset that you should not be wholly insulated from the repercussions of your mistakes? I never suggested nor do I endorse people being being actively punished only that when you make a mistake you must pay proper restitution and take responsibility for them.

How is any of this superior is beyond me. If you can't afford to live on you own stay at home until you can. If you can't stay at home move out and get an apartment with a roommate. If you still can't find appropriate affordable housing live in a shelter until you can. If you need training most metropolitan areas offer free technical training. If you need education their are pell grants, scholarships, student loans, and affordable community and junior colleges. If you can't find a job most shelters have employment offices and their are free government employment agencies and many more private agencies. Hell go to Labor Ready sit and do manual labor if that is all you can do. If your hungry their are food banks, shelters, churches, food stamps, and other providers. If you're sick there is medicaid and free clinics and in extreme circumstances emergency rooms can't turn you away. These are social insurance programs that should allow anyone to get back on their feet. Why do people always make excuses? We have more opportunities for advancement than ever before and people make more excuses then ever before.

As far as people with families are concerned. If you can't afford to have a family you need to wait until you are financially secure enough to afford one. There is nothing elitist about this. This should be common sense. Many people put off the joy of having families for years until they are in a responsible position to have one. This is what mature responsible people do. To have parts of their income redistributed to people without the means to afford families while they go without is inexcusable. Free or discounted birth control is readily available mistakes shouldn't happen but they do. This is understandable but they must pay for this wonderful mistake. Both parents need to do everything in their power to ensure the well being of their child. If they are unable to take care of it they need to become so. After birth the same birth control is still available.

Failure is a signal that what your doing isn't working. Failure is oftentimes just as important as success and often times more educational. It is when people are not allowed to fail or fail and not allowed to learn from them that failure becomes horrifically counterproductive.

I'm not saying people are poor because they want to be. I'm saying that many made mistakes. The same mistakes repeatedly because they where not allowed to fully realize the ramifications of, or learn, from past mistakes. Their are tremendous opportunities available, abdicating responsibility for your welfare, blaming others for your mistakes, limits yourself.

People need to learn to be self sufficient and not rely on others for there success or blame others for their failures. Their is more social welfare and welfare recipients than every before to deny this is to deny the reality of the existence of long term welfare recipients.

couldntfindausername

I know many people who have utilized government social insurance programs both temporarily and permanently. The idea that their shouldn't be a stigma, of some other strong disincentive, attached to using these programs for long periods of time is wrong. There are limited resources they must be used wisely. I don't think it is the stigma that is keeping these people down I think it is the unearned unlimited and unqualified help. And again I said long periods of time. This means I understand and approve of social insurance, good honest hard working people can and do go through hard times and the majority of people that use welfare use it for short periods of time, its just that a disproportionate amount of the money goes to people that use it chronically year after year. This is unfair to all those that are either lucky enough not to need it or those that use it appropriately for a short period to get back on their feet. The concept is even worse when me and other responsible people are expected to take care of other people's children year after year. Again I understand hardship and charity but there is a point where charity becomes parasitic.

No I'm not judging people but I am judging peoples actions. The idea that I should be forced into a paternalistic position of responsibility for another adult's well being is fundamentally unethical. People agree that all should be given the opportunity to succeed and benefit from our successes but what people forget is that the opportunity to fail and suffer the consequences is just as important. People need to be able to fail, fail miserably, and repeatedly if necessary to learn life's hard lessons and to learn how to succeed. One of the greatest causes of repeated failure is the removal of negative consequences. There is nothing immoral about expecting people to pay for their own mistakes. Their is everything wrong with expecting others, who have paid for their own mistakes and sacrificed to avoid making them systematically, to pay for their irresponsible fellow citizens.

We don't need a collective solution what we need is to allow these people to opportunity to individually fail. There is nothing wrong with failing. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes. There is everything wrong with making others pay for your failures and mistakes. This is not some mean spirited elitist social Darwinian evolution comment this is the reality of how mature people and mature societies view personal responsibility. If you want people to learn to stand we need to allow them the opportunity to fall.

First step the boyfriend should help clean house and not work on his bball game.....

Wow. So much for the "secular" humanist understanding and "humanitarian" approach to the problem-solving of evil, eh? =P Where's all that no-need-to-fear "Underdog" courage of the indomitable human spirit that can do supposedly do anything we set our minds to? ;)

Graciously, the Christian God forgives many of the worst things we all do in life, even if there are unavoidable consequences. But, I'd ask, what necessarily cultivates respectable personal Virtue best in life? The indignity of food stamps? Your corporation's company policy manuals? Your CurrentTV? How about the "loftier" legislation your senator or representative shuffles on his/her desk? ;)

It's simply too bad almost no one brings up the absolute necessity and viability of religion or personal faith as having ANY positive contribution or effectually Redeeming value for anyone so lost to themselves or others. To have some chance at success in life, people like this have potentially needed the kind of sacrificial care, firm guidance and support only missionary Christians are now known for, in willing to live sacrificially to the greatest expense all in the name of their God. I think some of us, including myself, could learn a few things from them, where more of this secular fatalist bullshit just leaves everyone at the cavernous dead of end of hope and impulsive rage.

The current system encourages the abuse of social services. I agree the help is needed to raise healthy and happy children. One solution may be to provide the adequate health care, daycare and after school care. The parent(s) should be working while their children are cared for. The assistance should be supplemental. Instead, many times in order qualify for medical coverage a single parent must not have any income. It becomes a catch 22.

I just wish I was smart enough to come up with a solution. I think this is a cultural problem that needs to be fixed by us. I think people should be ashamed to use social insurance policies like food stamps, health care, ect for long periods of time. These are abuses of services that are meant to be temporarily available to people that through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times. I just don't know how to stop people like this from continuing to abuse systems without causing harm to their children. I'm still tempted to support the removal of all services and let the chips fall where they may. Let friends, family, and private social organizations deal with her and her ilk with compassion while demanding accountability.

Right on, bullpcp, my sentiments exactly. My thing I would change about the world is accountability. Yep, you see even with all the services out there, free and available she's still not tryiong to make it work. I, too, feel for these kids. Chances are their lives will be as bad as hers because or system is not one that makes people take over and be responsible. We just keep them in food and perpetual usership.
Get her off her but and make her work. If she can't make it through a trade school she surely can stock shelve at a wall-mart or dollar store. The grocery store up the street from us employees 'challenged' adults.. I give credit to those working and the manager for giving jobs to people that require the skills they have.

I think personal responsibility is paramount. She has a family and at least two fathers of four children. She had the choice to have children. She decided to have them. Even if the first was an "accident" that leaves three more. She is a "single mother" with a live in boyfriend. She apparently stays home to take care of the preschool children, the three and five year old, and has no job. A single mother that doesn't work and stays at home all day to take care of her four children is not in a exceptionally difficult position. She has a history of violence that would have landed her boyfriend in jail if the genders had been reversed. Her house had rotten food, vomit and feces on the floor. As far as services are concerned they where and still are readily available. Food, housing, medical care, not to mention friends and family. I don't really see that she had any excuse for her actions and inaction.

As far has psychiatric disorders go every nasty irresponsible act by a person is not somehow related to a mental condition. Some people are just mean, selfish, hateful people. This does not mean that they are mentally ill. I have met mentally ill people that are disturbed but lovely people and others that are mentally ill but horrific human beings. The two are not necessarily related.

I don't know what to do about people like this. I don't like the idea of people continuing to have more children when they are mentally, physically, and economically unable or unwilling to take care. I don't like the idea that my taxes may be used to help those who where irresponsible and continue to be irresponsible. It's is unfair to those of us who are responsible and caring parents and it is unfair to her children.

Part of me wants to stop supporting people like this all together, while the other part of me wants to help the children. The dichotomy is that by supporting the children we are supporting their irresponsible parents.

Wow. Being an overwhelmed single parent does not excuse what this woman has done. Doesn't she know why she's had, or have any control over, how many kids she's has? I can understand being overwhelmed, but surely she was also overwhelmed BEFORE she had the 4th kid. It doesn't make any sense to me why on earth these women who are not married continue to have baby after baby they are not capable of taking care of. She needs to be behind bars, and sterilized. She's an idiot.

Who is sending her to prison for rehabilitation? Not me. I'm sending her there to let her and the world know that yoiu don't stab someone and then go to a psychiatrist. You stab someone and then you go to prison.
When she gets out, you can send her for therapy. Meanwhile I do want to give out the word that after you shoot someone, or rob a bank, or push someone in front of a train, or stab someone, you get punished.

New mothers and new fathers need support system that should not have a stigma attached (I know it would be a perfect world) or wait for something drastic to occur. What bothers me is this woman has exhibited violence toward father(s) of her child(ren), she is abusive to her children but the system and we are all looking for a constructive solution to help her. If this was a man with the violent past who stabbed the mother of his child and exhibited such serious child abuse and neglect public would not even consider anything other then a prison, the story of another man the abuser would be all over the news. Not in this case as the abuser is a woman.

There are unfortunately thousands of people like her all over the place.
Later, the reaction is, "What? You mean a woman can get pregnant if she has sexual relations?! Really? Wow! What a strange surprise?!!"
Bull.
She did it and subconsciously she knew she might give birth, and she just didn't give a hoot.
On top of that, she stabbed someone.
Anybody home?
She stabbed someone!
If she stabbed a bit more over to the side, she's be a murderer.
Of course she should go to jail.

Does this woman have a job? How does she pay the rent? Buy food? If she gets assistance doesn't the case worker visit?
The DPA office usually hunts for the fathers and attach wages to repay the assistance and give support to the child.
I've known of woman getting counseling in home on cooking, cleaning, organizational skills for single mothers unable to cope. Some of these woman have never lived in a 'normal' environment so don't know any different.
My guess is this woman has low self-esteem and allows others around her to dictate what she does. Only when forced does she act on a problem and then in haste and probably inappropriately.Clearly not a great candidate for motherhood. Unfortunate that her situation continued to allow her to procreate again and again. She could have gotten free birth control at the nearby women's clinic. They even give injections if she couldn't remember to take pills or they were a a possible health hazard within reach of the children.

Both.

All she did was abuse and ignore her child, oh yeah, and she stabbed someone. Big deal!
She should see a psychiatrist for a few sessions so she will get better.
Right?
NO, SHE IS A VIOLENT PIECE OF GARBAGE.
Put her in prison and give that child to a truly compassionate relative.

Why can't it be a woman who needs help AND an abuser with a violent past? Why the drive for simplicity? This is a multifactorial problem and needs a multifactorial solution.

Looking at the article I'm seeing lots of worrying details. I'm also seeing references to various services that I would like to think could have done something about this problem at an earlier stage, but any policy of doing so would be met with cries of INTRUSION and 1984 and FASCIST.

"His daughter, he said, is struggling to raise a 3-year-old daughter and three sons, ages 5, 6, and 9, with little assistance from their fathers."

Start dealing with *that* problem and we'd see most of the others fade away.

Yikes, after reading that article I'm not sure what to think other than she does need some sort of help.

I've been in some tough situations myself as a full time single father of 3 but always at least manage to clean up the fecal matter.