Community | August 23, 2009 | 47 comments

Marines Wonder Why Afghans they Kill Won't Help

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/world/asia/23marines.html

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JonRaymond
duh

They admit that their efforts in Afghanistan are wasted without the Afghan's help. Yet they continue to kill innocent Afghans, unable to distinguish between them and the Taliban.

The Taliban never committed any terrorist attack against the U.S. They are a nationalistic organization, not global like Al Qaeda.

The war in Afghanistan is obviously another Vietnam for the U.S. No exit strategy. No purpose. No chance of winning anything. It doesn't stop or hinder terrorism, it proliferates terrorism by motivating survivors of innocent war victims to become terrorists.

Why are we there?
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    Community,   Military,   Stop War,   Afghanistan
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47 comments // Marines Wonder Why Afghans they Kill Won't Help

  • samthesixth
    • 0
      samthesixth  

    • Call me a moron if you must. I was making a tongue in cheek reference to your grammatically incorrect headline. I was not disparaging any argument you made in any way.

    • 2 years ago
  • samthesixth
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  

    • I've read the Three Trillion Dollar War, Worse Than Watergate, The Shock Doctrine, and Conservatives Without Conscience, to name a few. I've seen the ReThink Afghanistan films and the Winter Soldier tapes (GIs who have first hand knowledge of the total bullshit going on http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier) along with many other articles and statements by people with first hand knowledge.

      There is a very strong incentive to continue this war at all costs, and that is money. The few who profit on a profane proportion have every reason to make whatever case they can to continue this war. You are more than likely among them.

      War is traditionally lucrative for the few who profit from it. Blackwater attests to this with their child prostitutes and lawless killing while living the high life in the green zone. Have you seen Iraq for Sale?

      I do not believe that war strategy can stop war. Military strategists only know how to deal with these things through force. There are other ways. Of course that would preclude them. Are they going to op for something that puts them out of business, out of the green zone, out of the lawless rape business? These warmongers live like kings with no accountability.

      One thing that doesn't work is that we are completely in the dark as to what the military is doing. All media is censored. There are virtually no images and no media except Pentagon approved propaganda.

      Is Afghanistan not another Vietnam? The same was said then that we could not leave that war.

      Total bullshit.

      I'm not opposed to reading what you suggest. But if I believe, as many do, that war begets war, and that war cannot stop war, then it seems pointless.

      If there is any threat in Afghanistan after we leave, it certainly has to be at least partly our own doing in proliferating terrorism, and making people hate us for killing their families. If some occupied force killed my family and annihilated my country I'd spend my life hunting them down to make them pay a hundred times over what they had done. So would anyone.

      The longer we stay there the worse we make it for ourselves and the world. If we can't stop the Taliban or Al-Qaeda by now (and I really don't care how they spell it because it's a contrived name anyway), and the situation gets worse every day, how the hell is staying there in a military position going to help anything?

      Whatever military solution there is, it cannot negate these facts. There are more and more people learning to hate the U.S. and with damned good reason. To continue to proliferate that hate is not the solution, however hard a pill it is to swallow to face the music and pay the piper.

      The bill is due. It's time to pay up. You can't fight your way out of this one.

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      "I do not believe that war strategy can stop war."

      Well sir, that belief is pretty baseless, and wrong.

      Examples:

      Korean War
      World War II
      World War I
      Napoleonic Wars

      This list starts getting pretty long, care for me to finish it?

      Oh, and http://ivaw.org/wintersoldierl... that is for Iraq... has nothing to do with Afghanistan... you can not be a veteran of Iraq and know anything about Afghanistan... and up until now pretty much the only people that have had much to do with Afghanistan are special forces... and a few marines and army mountain brigade... good luck finding one of us who will speak against it... because we all got a good look at what we were doing... Afghanistan... IS NOT Iraq.

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • JonRaymond:

      So if this is so great a solution how come you've made no progress in all these years. You've proliferated terrorism. There are now more terrorists than ever thanks to you, and it gets worse with every day. There's no exit strategy and it appears to be an endless war.

      In other words you are full of it.

      You've been listening to your own bullshit for so long you actually believe it. What good are you doing anyone anywhere?

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      Man, did you even read what I said, we just started using this strategy with in the last six months... it is already working!!! Give it some freaking time... and lay off the American gimmy now mentality... the world is not a perfect place, but history has proven it has a way of sorting its shit out.

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      This asking questions and ignoring the answer because you do not like it is a very bad habit that is going to get you into trouble some day... and it is going to get you consistently ignored as well.

      You very obviously are not interested in the truth... so carry on with your little crusade in your epically incoherent fashion you have developed... I am sure it will carry you far...

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • JonRaymond:

      You state the following in the other post:
      ___________________________________
      We could pull out now, that does seem like a good idea... what happens when the guys we have been killing for no reason take over again? And they will, by force take over again if we leave. We end up with another hot bed for terrorists, and an entire nation who at that point would hate us (because we abandoned the half that do support us) as a recruiting field. Not the best idea... you end up with a war on drugs scenario at that point, the war that is lightly fought, costs a hell of a lot of money, and is never won.

      We should not be in this position, but the arrogance of a few has put us here. So what do we do, do we try to stabilize things and work out differences, or do we cut tail and run an continue to fight till the end of time? I say we give the hearts and minds campaign that has just begun a year or two before we make that decision, we might be able to come out on top, and if we do not, we will not be all that much more worse off for trying to correct arrogant mistakes of the past. This up coming election is a big step in that direction FYI.
      _________________________________

      It takes 7 years to figure this out? Now you expect tolerance? You're writing checks you can't cash. You admit as much. You also make a lot of assumptions about what the future would be like if you left. We left Vietnam and things got better, not worse. The threat of a fearful government was there too. You can't know that leaving isn't better than staying. No one knows that. Considering the costs and liabilities of this war, this kind of doubt should put the weight on leaving.

      I will read more on what you suggest. But I am highly skeptical. There's no way I can accept that this war continues. But what choice do we have? We'll be there at least another two years. it takes that long to pull out of a war even when it's decided to do so. So we'll see if what you say has any merit. But don't expect any support or tolerance. You have long overstayed your welcome.

      It appears to me you deserve to lose. You are the bad guys. You kill innocent people and their survivors become the Taliban and they therefore deserve to take you out. The fact you call leaving "cut tail" indicates your somewhat obtuse nationalistic view of the situation. You should accept the fact you are on the wrong side and that getting out is your only real option of honor. You're still an unwanted occupying force. You still exist to destroy, including the innocent, and not to build. Are we sending in aid to build up schools or highways? No. Why not? And if not, what credibility does what you say have, with me or the Afghans?

      You may have some small area of progress in the elections and so on. But isn't this just a drop in the bucket? You hold elections while you destroy at the same time.

      My efforts are aimed at exposing what I can through media, images, film and so on. The images that do come through don't look too pretty. There is evidence of racism and genocide. Killing masses of people without regard for their innocence because of their nationality or religion is genocide. It may be on a small scale compared to other genocides. But it is the same. Your inability to distinguish between Taliban and innocent people makes you impotent.

      If you'd like I would be interested in interviewing you on your position, or if you can have someone film you, I could use that. More convincing would be images of the war and the reality we don't get to see. I'm not from Missouri but I have the the same standards. Show me. But what will RAWA and other Afghan nationalists have to say in reaction?

      If not for me there should at least be an ease of the media censorship to show your good faith. Otherwise why should anyone believe you? You should go in there with cameras instead of guns. Would not a media campaign against the Taliban pressure them to behave?

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
  • MilchMann
  • MilchMann
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • JonRaymond:

      Of course a lot of this is Pentagon propaganda. especialy when you see authors having military rank. The military is a kiss ass society where no one dare rock the boat.

      The Afghan troop video shows a guy saying how he has no problem dying for his country to protest it. He noncalantly describes seeing his comrades die in front of him. If that isn't war propaganda I don't know what is. How does this guy feel about spending the rest of his life without any arms or legs, or having a damaged psyche from seeing toturous death up close?

      The Winter Soldiers may be from Iraq, but these things are universal. The military has a racist policy toward all Muslims. Seeing your buddies die, killing innocent people, watching children get killed, dehumanizing an entire ciulture are all things that happen in any country we go to war in, in every war we've ever been in.

      In light of those facts and your contention that the IVAW is irrelevant, I find you highly suspect. Who are you trying so hard to convince? Why should anyone buy it?

      It is military policy to demean, dehumanze and be racist toward any enemy. That is the only way they are able to get people to kill. Then when troops have a chance to think about it, usually after they get home, it hits them what they have done and they can't live with themselves. The results are high rates of veteran suicide and mental disability for the lucky ones.

      So, I feel most of your links are likely pro military propaganda. Though I reserve judgement having not seen them all. At the same time I want to believe Obama is making the right decisions, or more probably the best ones he can, given the political straight jacket he is in.

      You don't suddenly turn the entire militay culture around from its hundreds of years of racist dehumanizing tradition. So I am highly skeptical until I see some positive results, but more so until I see Afghans like the RAWA telling the world that they support you. I doubt we'll see that.

      But if we are truly building up Afghanistan, maybe something good will come of it. I'll belive it when the Afghans see it.

      I think it best that all people continue the pressure to leave Afghanistan. If nothing else it will keep you on the defensive. You are the bad guys. You wear the black hats.

      What's to say that everything we hear about Afghanistan isn't pure Pentagon propaganda? Nothing.

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      I am trying so hard to convince you, and showing you explicitly why we are there. It gets tiring having to hear people slander what you have done day in and day out without understanding or caring to actually look at the facts to start understanding what is happening.

      Some of the links I gave you earlier are foriegn by the way... and are in no way shape or form connected to the Pentagon

      Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs (dedicated to Afghan news)
      http://www.afghanistan.um.dk/en/menu/NewsAndEvents/ExternalNewsSources/

      You do not get much more connected with terrorism than these guys... good source of news though
      http://english.aljazeera.net/

      and beyond that I labeled a whole section as foreign efforts... they are all foreign!!! Including a French site, and they just joined our effort because of the Obama hearts and minds campaign... if you remember they Boycotted the US over George Bushes debacle!!!

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
  • JonRaymond
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      And to that I give you exactly what I gave to this video last time. Absolutely everyone should take a look at this thread for a broader explanation of why this video is B.S.

      http://current.com/items/90730760_former-cia-the-notion-that-we-are-in-afghanist...

      This is complicated to say the least, but I will do my best to try and explain it.

      The cluster fuck policy started with a very ingenious political decision to overthrow the Afghan government. I am not going to speculate on names, there were a lot of ignorant people that thought they knew better than the CIA or Military on this.

      So we have a toppled regime and a very small illusive group that can easily be eradicated suddenly spawns into a very large group... just like the persons in the video explained. What is more, the big group was and is not connected to the little group... they are pissed about our interference in their country... which was brushed aside for 7 years... it was no deemed as... how to put it... important as to why or whom was shooting at us.

      So we are going into all of these areas in Afghanistan, that are over run with Tliban militants in the country side, and in the villages there is a pretty big split on feelings about the Taliban, and some off the wall customs about how they treat each other and their relationship to the guerrillas... the policy makers took this as encouragement to "liberate" these people with out wholly understanding the situation. (And there is no way I am going to start trying to explain Postunes and the other groups to you here, you could write a whole series of books on them and still not completely understand without seeing it).

      So we ended up with a guerrilla war... for which we have special forces that are very good at fighting... only problem, we do not have very many of them. We have around 2000 Navy SEALs, probabaly somewhere around 5000 green berets, and less than a 1000 CCTs... and that is what we have for this war. Marine Recon and Army Rangers are of limited use in this type of warfare. We have SEALs and Green Berets posted all over the world trying to solve other problems as well, so we can really only spare a few thousand men who are trained to fight this way to an entire war. So you have to supplement their numbers with regular forces and try and hold what you take/dissipate with your elite units.

      We could pull out now, that does seem like a good idea... what happens when the guys we have been killing for no reason take over again? And they will, by force take over again if we leave. We end up with another hot bed for terrorists, and an entire nation who at that point would hate us (because we abandoned the half that do support us) as a recruiting field. Not the best idea... you end up with a war on drugs scenario at that point, the war that is lightly fought, costs a hell of a lot of money, and is never won.

      We should not be in this position, but the arrogance of a few has put us here. So what do we do, do we try to stabilize things and work out differences, or do we cut tail and run an continue to fight till the end of time? I say we give the hearts and minds campaign that has just begun a year or two before we make that decision, we might be able to come out on top, and if we do not, we will not be all that much more worse off for trying to correct arrogant mistakes of the past. This up coming election is a big step in that direction FYI.

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • JonRaymond:

      So let me get this straight.

      We're supposed to stay in Afghanistan and continue to kill innocent Afghans, proliferate terrorism, at a cost of $775,000 per troop per year, because we're too fucking stupid with our state of the art military intelligence to know the difference between babies and terrorists, and because we fear that Al Queda might return to the caves currently controlled by the Taliban, despite the fact that we can't possibly rout the Taliban out of there anyway even if they do return. Is that about right?

      Who's in charge of this mess again? Baby fucking Huey or what?

      They fight and die in vain.

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • JonRaymond:

      No that is not right... but I would not object to you calling Bush "Baby fucking Huey" ... or Dick Cheney either... because those are the two geniuses that caused this to be what it is now... they did not give their commanders what they needed, and did not listen to their advice.

      By the way the name is Al-Qaeda or Al-Qaida.

      Ok, I am really trying to be nice with this, so please do not think that I am in anyway attacking you.

      If you are going to campaign against something, do you not think it would be a good idea to understand it? The most effective arguments are made when you know what is going on, so for that reason I am going to suggest that you read 'On War' by Carl Von Clausewitz (the Michael Howard and Peter Paret translation is best) and then 'Strategy' by B.H. Liddell Hart. Those two books will give you a little bit of a jump start on understanding what is and has gone on... if you go back and follow the events of the war from the beginning once you have read them that is.

      To understand what has been going on with the absolutely pathetic excuses of strategy in Afghanistan over the previous 7 1/2 years you are going to need to understand military strategy... and trust me, it is not all blood and guts, that is maybe a tenth of what war is. Also, the strategy that is just now being implemented over there, it is pristine, this is the kind of war that a civilian population hopes for if there must be war. We are occupying urban areas and pushing most of the fighting into the country side... we are assisting the population with there needs, no matter what they need, and we are making progress more progress in the last 2-3 months than we had in the previous 7 1/2 years.

      Getting more general... down to brass tacks so to speak...
      we went into Afghanistan, and the Taliban regime was taken out. You can view that as a good idea or a bad idea, but it happened. If we leave that country right now with it as unstable as it is, tens of thousands will die... if you do not believe that, take a good look at Somalia over the past 15 years.

      Let me put it in more simplistic format. If you are driving your car, and you hit a kid on a bike for some reason, it may or may not be your fault, do you flee the scene?

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
  • Saladin
    • 0
      Saladin  

    • This is pathetic.

      We had a huge discussion about this a few days ago and rather then reply to our answers to your oh-so-obvious questions, you run away and post more bullshit!

      Well here's my post again since apparently you keep forgetting to address it.

      "It is complete stupidity to compare the war in Afghanistan to Iraq and it is the height of ignorance to pretend like we went there for any other reason then to stop Al-Qaeda.

      First off, we barely have any troops in Afghanistan because Bush had no interest in going there. He had to be convinced first. So the idea that the war is already over is silly, we rely primarily on warlords to do the work for us in that country. We only have a few battalions there period, it's a goddamn joke.

      Secondly and most importantly, the primary objective in Afghanistan should be reconstruction, a goal which if achieved properly WOULD significantly diminish terrorist activity and marginalize the extremist groups.

      Rather then write a book about this, let me just sum this up real fast.

      It is impossible to look at this situation without seeing it in the historical context of the Russian invasion in '79 and the subsequent civil war that took place until the Taliban took over in the mid 90's.

      In that context, we're looking at a peaceful, stable country that had its entire infrastructure wiped out by these subsequent wars.

      The common denominator behind the Mujahideen warlording and the Taliban and the terrorism is -economic disparity.-

      People grow opium because there is no more irrigation systems by which to make decent crops. People take up the AK because there are no jobs by which to survive besides warlording.

      And leaving would only restart the cycle of civil war, nothing good would come of it.

      They need their country REBUILT, same goes for the border areas with Pakistan. Terrorism dies with opportunity because no one will give a shit about extremists if they're able to feed their families and be happy.

      Or you could listen to geniuses like slowdive and S3, pretend like none of this is happening and watch the civil war repeat itself because you were too lazy to pick up a history book."

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • Image
    • Saladin:

      If we are there to stop Al Qaeda why are we fighting the Tailban instead? Get educated. You know jack about what you're talkign about. It's not worth the time to explain to you that killing innocent people motivates thier surviving family to join terrorists organizations and fight Americans. What part of that do you not understand?

      Our troops fight and die in vain. It is purely a war for profiteers and oil, nothing else.

      They do not protect our freedom. They endanger it by proliferating terrorism.

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • Saladin:

      Oh hoho... you just said that on the wrong thread man... cause I have seen it with my own eyes, and I know what is going on... far better than you. People are not killed because they can not be told apart, and people are not joining the Taliban because their brothers and sisters were killed by us either. Younger recruits are pulled into the Taliban through baseless propaganda... exactly like what you are spreading here. When people turn against the Taliban and stop fearing what will happen to them, it is most often because they recruited a loved on and got them killed for nothing.

      Asking why we are fighting the Taliban to stop Al-Qaeda has also been explained to you relentlessly as well, and there are differences in opinion between a few of us, but the fact remains that the Taliban regime was harboring Al-Qaeda and refused to cooperate with their removal from this planet.

      Please refer back to this thread to refresh your memory.

      http://current.com/items/90730760_former-cia-the-notion-that-we-are-in-afghanist...

      You need to stop spreading propaganda lies, if you can find legitimate reasons for being against the war, go for it... what you have here is absolute BS though.

      Salidan is spot on with his history by the way, so telling him to get an education makes you look like a jack ass.

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
  • MilchMann
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  

    • Did you read the article JonRaymond? Cause it does not look like it... here are some exerpts you seem to have missed

      "Meanwhile, Afghans in Khan Neshin, the Marines’ southernmost outpost in Helmand Province, are coming to the Americans with requests for medical care, repairs of clogged irrigation canals and the reopening of schools."

      They want us to help them...

      "He estimated that two of every three local residents supported the Taliban, mostly because they make a living growing poppy for the drug trade, which the Taliban control."

      We have not given them an alternative means of living yet...

      "Not least, people understand that the Taliban have not disappeared, but simply fallen back to Garmsir, 40 miles north, and will almost surely try to return."

      In other words they are scared to support the coalition troops.

      On thing that never appears in this article that you are citing... your MFing title of this thread "Marines Wonder Why Afghans they Kill Won't Help" ... that never shows up, it actually goes into how they are having to release people who have tried to kill them and they captured... no where does it mention people being against the Marines because they are slaughtering civilians... it does talk about supposed Afghan police stealing from citizens, that is the closest thing.

      Your political spin and absolute despicable conquest to prove your point regardless of facts reminds me of someone... G. W. Bush... you sir, by misrepresenting facts are no better than the man you so despise. I hope you burn for this.

    • 2 years ago
  • JonRaymond
    • 0
      JonRaymond  
    • MilchMann:

      Fact: U.S. marines kill innocent civilians
      Fact: survivors of civilian familes killed by marines tend to join the Tailban
      Fact: This arcticle talks about how Afghans will not help the marines. It waters down these facts as follows: "Others support them for religious reasons or because they object to foreign forces."

      Yes, they object to foreign forces who kill their fucking families. Would you suppot a foreign force that killed your family? No. You'd blow them to hell. So would I. So do the Afghans.

      Then you cite that they want us to help them build up thier country. Are we doing that? No fuck ing way. So what do you expect from them in return?

      The Article is titled "Marines Fight Taliban With Little Aid From Afghans"

      It states: "American officers say their troops alone are not enough to reassure Afghans."

      This implies that marines want Afghan support but are not getting it. It also implies they are hard pressed for reasons why? The overwhelming reason why is obviously that the Marines kill innocent civilians and proliferate terrorism making life harder, not easier, for the locals. But no one will ever admit to these facts.

      Get a fucking education you fucking moron.

    • 2 years ago
  • MilchMann
    • 0
      MilchMann  
    • MilchMann:

      My part of the quote...

      "He estimated that two of every three local residents supported the Taliban, mostly because they make a living growing poppy for the drug trade, which the Taliban control"

      your part of the quote

      "Others support them for religious reasons or because they object to foreign forces."

      ... I can find a guy that thinks you would look better impaled on a stake in his front yard... does not mean most people will think it. Do you see how your warping of the truth makes you look just a little bit... check that, like a really big fucking idiot.

      "Fact: U.S. marines kill innocent civilians
      Fact: survivors of civilian familes killed by marines tend to join the Tailban"

      Umm... ok, so you go to work and you make a mistake... that happens on Mondays... I had two or three people come to me today because they had messed something up... when men in uniform make mistakes over there, people die... and it does not happen often because they know this, and many of them have nice little dreams about those mistakes every night and will for the rest of their lives.

      There have been very very few people killed by US troops that have resulted in people joining the Taliban... most of the people in the Taliban are strong supporters of Shria Law...

      Like I said in the other thread, I was there. I know what was going on, I lived among these people... and you bending the truth for you purpose, no matter how benevolent you believe it to be, is not helping anything, it is not helping the people in Afghanistan, and it is not helping your cause, so stop immediately. If you want to find real facts and present them... then I will be more than happy to shoot those down without calling you G.W. Bush. Who you are still sounding a lot like right now.

    • 2 years ago
  • samthesixth
  • div
  • Paratus
  • lifestudentno83
  • bluoysclt
  • biggranny
    • 0
      biggranny  

    • the commonfolk in afghanistan just want bread and clean water. they will take it from whom ever gets it to them. we are just foreign invaders to them. and here we go round the mulberry bush

    • 2 years ago
  • lifestudentno83
    • 0
      lifestudentno83  

    • I wonder why armchair "Patriots" like GodsnLiberals and Clownpuncher aren't over in Afghanistan fighting the terrorism they hate so much...

      Maybe the war would be over already if you two led the charge.

      Semper Fi, do or die men. Go forth and kick ass.

    • 2 years ago
  • idealist
  • GodsnLiberals
  • Saladin
  • ProjectBat
  • clownpuncher
  • GodsnLiberals
  • GoodGodGuy
    • 0
      GoodGodGuy  

    • Even the ruthless Russians couldn't win there. It broke the Soviet Union. History should teach a lesson somewhere...
      Help lalalalalalalalalalalala

    • 2 years ago
  • GodsnLiberals
  • JonRaymond
  • GodsnLiberals
  • lifestudentno83
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