Coverage under Obamacare will require an implantable microchip?

Fuck That ,,, kill me

@ Timothy, Why would any of those you listed be "required" Read the bill.

I will not be taking any chip. He can stuff it.

I agree with Rosa_Azcuy ! Keep your chip cause I don't want it.

Pretty funny. Whoever wrote that obviously didn't go to the trouble to find out what a Class II implantable medical device is. Class II devices include catheters, pacemakers, bone plates and screws, breast implants, artificial hips and knees....the list is a mile long. RFID labels have been used in conjunction with some of these devices, i.e. hip implants, to insure that the device was placed in the appropriate location. RFID has been used for device and location identification since about 2004...There is not and never was a requirement in the health insurance bill that required patients to be microchipped..

I can't and won't allow anything or anyone to come between the returning of my Christ. So this is the beginning of birth pains like the word of God says. They can keep the microchip. I will not participate in any of it.

ACTION FOR JUSTICE ( AXJ ® ) AND 30 MILLION AMERICAN TEA PARTY MEMBERS WILL NOT PERMIT THIS TO HAPPEN.

I agree with aircarz & Mr. Norris. Obama's health care plan is the sign of the BEAST: If U agree to having a micro chip placed inside of U: Then you will probably agree to just about anything. NO THANK U: I was born with out a MICRO CHIP & I plan on meeting the Almighty Lord with out one. President Obama should rethink his Health Insurance Policy. He can keep his stupid MICRO CHIP: Just make Health Insurance Affordable for everyone. NO MICRO CHIP:

Hello y'all

This is a sign of the times...the END times that is! RELAX...this is NOT the mark of the beast! It is however, the forced indoctrination of the philosophy of getting us comfortable with the idea! The “mark” as outlined in the Bible’s book of revelation is a mark that you will not be deceived about taking, that is, you will know exactly what it is you are about to do and why. You will not be able to buy a thing without the mark…no food no gas, nothing. Nor will you be able to sell. But be warned – If you take the mark – you forfeit your eternal soul, that’s it, you’re done. If you don’t take it, chances are you will be beheaded, but hey, at least you will not burn in h-e double hockey sticks for all eternity, ya know, right?

But chances are (is that Johnny Mathis I hear singing?) if you are in the undesirable circumstance where you are being “forced” to take the mark of the beast or die, there is a good chance that you have probably been left behind after the rapture has occurred (if you prescribe to the doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture, as I and most who actually believe in God and the Bible do) and all believing Christians (the salt and light of the earth) have been taken up, and you have been left behind – if you find yourself in this position it may already be too late anyway because you had the chance, and rejected it. That is, you KNEW, yet did nothing. You will at that point be sent a delusion by God Himself… The purpose of the Great Delusion (2 Thes 2:10-12) is to permit those who refused the love and truth of Jesus Christ during the long era of Grace (um, that time is now), to be recompensed (that is, “paid back”) for their love of their own unrighteousness. The son of perdition a.k.a the antichrist will reign, and those left behind will be deceived into believing that he is the son of God, when in fact he will be a deception, and many will bow down before him, and take his mark!

And a sure sign that you have been left behind (since the only ones that will hear the trumpets sound are those who believed) will be the immediate thrust of the world into anarchy and chaos - I mean imagine...unpiloted in-flight jumbo jets crashing to the ground, unmanned automobiles careening down hiways at 70-80 mph... Once the salt and light has been removed and there is nothing to preserve goodness, evil will reign with an iron fist and it will be immediate, violent, and desperate and there will be no room for misinterpretation…you will know exactly when it happens.

Bible prophecy teaches us that the true church should not be on the lookout for a Christ to appear to lead the world through the dark days of Tribulation; rather true Christians should know that the real Christ is coming to remove His church from the era of dark days, or Tribulation era, and what will follow is the great day of Wrath on this world which will be a time for the wrath of God to be poured out upon a world that has rejected the true Christ; and united in selecting to follow the antichrist.

Woe to those in that coming day! If you have something going on in your life that is preventing you from putting your trust and faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, you had best change that right now. Don’t wait. Don’t hesitate. Don’t be late because I believe that day is not far off. I believe we are the generation who will see the second coming of the Lord.

I know a book that can predict the future with 100% accuracy, and I can prove it with the newspaper you have in your hand, and that book is the Bible. The re-emergence of the nation of Israel in its same original location after having vanished from the face of the earth for nearly 2000 years, (be looking for the coming news cast "Damascus is a smoking hole" then read Isaiah 17:1) The apostasy of the church, the headlong race to a one world order, one world governance, one world currency, and one overall ruler, technology that allows real time communication from anywhere in the world…technology like implants mandated by Obama’s healthcare plan talked about here…are all talked about in the Bible as signs of the end times, and loved ones, that time is now. Keep in mind that there is not one thing that remains that needs to happen before the Second Advent, no, not one. The dominoes are ALL in place and we are just waiting for that final “flick”! Ok, well, I’m waiting. I hope you are too!

In the New American Century Project they have an insidious plan to effective invade and conquer most of the rest of the world. This will, of course, force other nations to try to stop the Republicrats in Washington. Those with nukes will use them. The resulting electromagnetic pulse will wipe out all complex circuitry, causing those chips you're worried about to fry and die, along with your computer and your car, unless it's a classic. So you won't hear about plots to rule the world or put you in death camps. You won't be able to drive around seeing people with disturbing news to tell. Think Amish. In that new and better, albeit somewhat radioactive, America we can try to grow our little gardens, spend time while we have it with our kids and loved ones. None of the military equipment will work because of the EMP so they won't come rounding up citizens, they will be spending time in POW camps or at home with their loved ones. See? Not such a scary future, the worse thing the chip causes in people is a cyst which can be lanced to take out the chip. Problem solved. Now, what do we do with all these unwanted minorities? We whites will have to take them out so there's enough food to go around.

THIS JUST ISN'T RIGHT: IN ORDER TO GET THE OBAMA HEALTH INSURANCE U HAVE TO AGREE TO HAVE A CHIP PUT INSIDE U: ALL OTHER INSURANCES DON'T REQUIRE THAT. I AGREE WITH MR. NORRIS: THIS IS THE SIGN OF THE BEAST. NO THANK U: I REFUSE TO HAVE ANY FORM OF MICRO CHIP PLACED IN MY BODY: HOW DO U KNOW IF THAT THING WON'T CAUSE CANCER OR GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE:

This is hy The Obama Adinistration wanted the Healthcare Bill pushed thru above everything else!, ,,"Mark of the Beast", read Revelation 16 & 17,in the Bible, Obama: "Deciever in Chief"

Even the sentence that you di write is dripping with accusations and sarcasm, that you seem to fail to recognize..."your haven't the courage to admit"...that is a put down, born out of nothingness...as if it takes courage to admit a degree?? Ah yes, it must, considering that the degree you want one to admit too is so "lame". So therefore you are in essence saying..."I dare you to admit to me that you have (what is in my esteemed opinion), some lame-ass degree".. Lacking the courage means what? That I don't have the courage to subject myself to your continued ridicule? I fail to see what "courage" has to do with anything in the first place...this is yet another contrivance of YOUR creation for the sole purpose of being oppositional and confrontational. It also displays such arrogance on your part...that ANYONE would fear admitting something to YOU, some Cyber Deity or whatever it is you think you are...but whatever it is you think you are, it is obvious that you think YOUR judgments of another must have some impact upon me. (or anyone else you similarly confront).

And then you go out amongst your friends (supposedly) to validate your righteousness. It has proved to me then that they must be as twisted as you are! This is a reasonable assumption, we typically attract what we ourselves are.

"There's nothing psycho-babble in any of my posts and you STILL haven't had the courage to admit that your PhD was in Business Management or some other lame subject."

Those are your EXACT words, copied and pasted directly from your post. This is inane. I understand now why Anne Coulture says.."you cannot talk to a Liberal"...it seems impossible. I give up trying. We go round and round on points that are not even germane to the subject matter...if you cannot read your own post and determine for yourself I have copied it word by word...then something surely must be wrong with you. And then, of course, you come back later and deny you even said anything derogratory. Its pure insanity.

Oh geez, Savant, you can't even read something in front of your face. I said, "some other lame subject" NOT "some similar LAME degree" You are so full of bullshit you see what you want to seem as if words mean nothing. So you paraphrase my words but you put them in quotes. Even a PhD knows a little grammar, surely! Business management under the current world situation is rather lame, because you learn how it used to be done, not how it will be done in the future. I don't have anything against them per se, but they are certainly a bit lame. I would say the same thing about studying factory farming techniques for similar reasons. I apologize for insulting your degree. You're a very smart man and I bet you know a lot of things I don't. But you are rude, short tempered, and you tend to be a bit dogmatic. I would appreciate it if you could try quoting me accurately if you are going to pass judgments on me.

You think I would bother to look you up and you would stand revealed? Okay, tell you what, I promise on my mother's ashes never to look you up. Please, please never reveal your true name. You are far more mysterious that way. I honestly don't care very much about your businesses and I sure have run out of interest on your political/economical views. You are a Republican right wing extremist with violent views on humanity and a reactionary bent toward politics. Clear as glass, easy to piss off and offering no insights that do not involve your being the smartest man in the room. Yeah, I see that. I bet your face is red right now and your blood pressure is up. Breathe in through the nose, hold it, now exhale slowly. Or not, I don't care, have a freaking heart attack for all I care. After going back over your vitriolic word-crap it's clear you're a wannabe, a poser. You are going to sign off one of your many businesses eh? Except that you have clearly stated you wish me to know nothing about you. How you going to pull that off?

You have no way to edit posts? Sigh, let me take you by the hand and explain it. There are little red wiggles that appear when your spelling is bad, unless of course you have stupidly added the mis-spelling to the local dictionary. You right-click on the tagged word and select the correct spelling from the offered list. OR if you are color blind or something you can boot up "Notepad" and write your response there, correcting any mistakes. You can boot up any decent word processor and get grammar check as well. Now you save the file as a "txt" file to get rid of any formatting. You select "select all" from the edit menu and "copy" the file to the clipboard. Now boot up this page and select that "submit" window and right click on the mouse. Select "paste" and your new post will appear, all corrected for people to see. Easy, eh? I had to teach my Dad that. I actually have a nice collection of computers with various operating systems and enjoy working with them. Of, course I know you couldn't care less.

"you misspelled so therefore you are not who you say you are" You like to lie a lot, don't you? Reworking other people's statements so they fit what you have in your head to say, even if it has nothing to do with the original statement. I just think a PhD with several businesses ought to be able to spell.
Actually, Dr. Savant, you have absolutely confirmed what i have always said about republican/democratic millionaires: the IQ of a person is indirectly to the amount of money they earn. You no longer have to think clearly because you hire thinkers to do that for you. I bet you hire illegal yard workers from Mexico, too! Oh, that's unworthy of me. I don't want to be like you, full of spite and anger. Maybe some of the workers have green cards.

Yeah you said goodbye before, but you come back. That's charming about you, your inconsistency.

Thanks to the global communication system the old business model of a business with employees in a commercial region of a community is fading away. Smart businessmen are finding that most employees can commute to work through their computer. Furthermore it is increasingly the case that people are buying directly from the producers. Americans can buy cloth woven by cooperatives of local women working from micro loans to buy the raw materials. This cuts out the middle men and keeps the prices very low. In many cases it has resulted in barter being the exchange medium of choice.

Politically this has many interesting ramifications. For instance the tax systems of most Western countries assumes business being done by retailers in a commercial zone. Business being done online with no paper records is nearly impossible to track effectively. Governments are scrambling to find ways around this. America especially is working on making the net unfree for private businesses. Word is they haven't got a chance since American businesses are failing to handle the mass migration of industry to China and Mexico, reducing the consumer monetary base. The economic engine in the near future will be online person-to-person transactions.

One final note regarding future businesses: the melting of the ice caps is raising the seas slowly but evidence exists that sudden surges of melting can dilute the salinity in the oceans, resulting in major shifts of climate causing currents. With, for instance, 2/3 of Florida going under the waves and cities like Washington DC, NYC and Boston becoming flooded major portions of the east Coast will become uninhabitable. This will force the mass relocation of millions of people precisely in a period when the government is bankrupted by three wars and world wide recessions. The likely result will be the weakening of the American political system and the collapse of the American economic engine.

"There's nothing psycho-babble in any of my posts and you STILL haven't had the courage to admit that your PhD was in Business Management or some other lame subject"

".I have nothing against business degrees, why should I?"

Seems to me you hurl insults obliquely and you and your "friends" cannot even see your surliness. Nice blinders you wear. First you call it "some similar LAME degree", and then come back in your next post and totally dismiss (or excuse) yourself.

I really do not care what you believe or do not believe. Think whatever you wish, but I certainly am not going to prove myself to you, NOR will I lead you to my real name and open the door for you to have access to who I am, where I live, what my businesses are, etc etc. If you think the protection of my privacy serves some other purpose...be my guest.

Of course I support a standing military. I don't necessarily support a standing military in other countries though. Let them stand HERE.

And once again you continue on with your insults...that you are blind to, but I am not. I just love the way you rationalize things..."you misspelled so therefore you are not who you say you are". Wrong! I type like shit, I am busy, and this is not a "paper", a publication, an article, a business letter, or anything of any import whatsoever....Nor is there an edit function. I type, I post...if things came out a bit goofy in the haste of that post...I am not too alarmed about it....but of course this gives you the ammunition to hurl yet more assumptions and insults..

I think you are an ass, quite frankly. And I said this before...we are done. Bye.

You still like to start with an insult. I will try to get a straight answer yet one more time. You object vehemently to government in your life, yet you can adapt to it easily. I take then you feel a failure of ethics, perhaps, re the intrusion. Do you support the standing military? That's not an inference, Savant, I do not slip things in the back door, it's a straight question, do you support a standing military? Moving on....I have nothing against business degrees, why should I? It's important to have some basic understanding of our economies in order to run a business. Why so sensitive? Your degree was in business, it seems, and you design buildings. Interesting how you got your doctorate in psychology yet you work in construction. I worked in civil engineering for 30+ years myself. Didn't do much design as I was too poor to get into college and thanks to the environment at home it was impossible to study enough to get any scholarships. I don't take tests well, I analyze the answers too deeply. As you know, a test is not testing your knowledge but your ability to give the teacher the answers they want. For instance a question involving the speed of light never mentions "in a vacuum" and of course the speed of light varies according to the medium in which it travels. We've managed to nearly stop light cold. Too many questions had multiple answers, all of which were right under certain circumstances. That's life, though, isn't it?

You assume a great deal, you know that? "The extent of what you are qualified to respond to might be something like this: "oh wow, you have construction companies...things must be tough for you right now" Actually I expect you are doing just fine, you can piss away $80,000 a month, remember? Construction does fine in a recession if they work in the right field. I was in civil engineering, remember. Cities like to build convention centers, rebuild city halls, fix crumbling infrastructure. People do alright if they flexible enough. I am not sure you are, but you are rich, so you must be right. I just love the way you make these judgmental pronouncements... no that is sarcasm, it actually pisses me off that you judge me, always judge me as inferior to yourself. Naturally I don't like it, but that is your style. I can't expect a leopard to change it's spots. You are not open to new information.

"you might be able to offer similar sediments" See "Savant"- you can't spell, you use the incorrect words, you jump to conclusions, you insult everybody you can and you are so amazingly sensitive to perceived insults that you have no good communication skills. I have shared your comments and mine with a number of people and to a person they assert that you undoubtedly are lying thru your teeth about your "PhD", your money, your businesses. they base this in large part by virtue of the fact that aside from insults you provide no real information about these skills of yours. You haven't the ability to read your own writings to correct mistakes, which is something that a PhD should be bright enough to handle. Your psychological insights are invariably wrong and misguided. I think they're right, I think you can't answer questions about your doctorate thesis because you never wrote one. I think you're angry because you are afraid of being caught in your lies. Naturally this will enrage you, but you do it to yourself. Try being a mensch for a change.

Wrong again. Change is change, fear of change is the reaction to it. Will things be different? Yup, very different. Survival of the fittest...adaptability. I'll be fine, I do not fear change, I just find this progressive notion of change to be highly distasteful. I don't like 'big government' involved in all life processes, thinking they know best and controlling individuals from cradle to grave. I object to it vehemently. But I have no problem adapting to it.

And in your previous post, you were once again derisive of anyone that happened to have a Business Mgmt. degree. Pretty much all degrees are somewhat worthless when it comes to real-world application (even Psychology degrees for that matter)...but ANY degree serves a more important role...one of discipline, delaying gratification, and a multitude of other character building and maturation development. You always make these sweeping "insults".

My businesses have nothing to do with my degrees. Do they have too? Where does that assumption come from? My businesses are architectural firms and construction companies. The construction industry is the hardest hit industry in this recession. That's life. But surely you are in NO position to comment on my business practices, management styles, or any of the dynamics of me or my companies. I did not ask for your opinions on a subject that you could not possibly know anything about (inasmuch you do not work for my companies). The extent of what you are qualified to respond to might be something like this: "oh wow, you have construction companies...things must be tough for you right now". Period. If I were a real estate agent, you might be able to offer similar sediments. Similarly, if you make fine art and sell it, at certain price points, YOUR business probably sucks right now too. I don't offer you solutions because I am in NO position to understand YOUR business (although I do "design", which is a form of art).

The economy affects everyone..and each will have to find their own ways to change/modify/adapt. I only take exception to those that whine and cry "I deserve".

@Savant- I know your title. You already told me that. Re-read my post. I asked what your doctorate was in, I asked for a link to your thesis so I might enlighten myself. Your company, then I suppose, has something to do with psychology? I thought you spoke of "sales"? What can a clinical psychologist be selling? Diplomas? I don't pretend to know about your life per se, you won't say anything of any great value, but I know people, I study people. Oh, I don't have a degree so of course I can't be as insightful as you, but I do study people and I do study history. I think you are afraid of change in the economy of this country. You have said as much many times before. The changes you see are large, looming and life-threatening. That's called fear, so why is it so bad when I acknowledge your fear? Oh, that's right, you think I have an infantile mind and am not qualified to make evaluations of people's psyche, especially yours. yeah I forgot.

The "government" consists of people, a rich mix of people. Most agree that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Witness how the American president insisted on dropping nuclear weapons on two civilian populations, knowing that American prisoners were a few yards from the target. Power corrupts. But power is given. A president has power because the people agree to follow him/her, or at least not to hinder him/her. In the same way money, currency, has power over people because they accept it's power. the Natives were considered intellectual inferiors because they valued money for the metal and had no use for paper money. They also never bought and sold land because only an idiot would think you could "own" land! So power structures are based on a give and take arrangement. If a government takes to actions of a destructive nature it is in the power of the people outside the government to refuse the authority and to remove the government from power. In the past governments have exceeded their power over the people by using the military as a weapon to threaten the people, but the military obeys the commander in chief voluntarily and if the military leaders see the government as an enemy to the people they may refuse to assist, leaving the government with no power over the people. So people can refuse to kneel before Big Government. You can only lose your life.
The new global economy "works" in that it has not crumbled into chaos yet. Old systems are not well suited to this kind of global competition and will fail if not modified. They may fail anyway. America has gone the way of a capitalist/profit taking economy which works in a limited market place but when opened up to the global trade cannot make as much profit and by it's standards fail. Our American industrial advantage has been folded into China's resources, reducing our power to compete. The model that worked in the 1950's cannot work in the new century. Expensive computer driven machinery is competing with co-ops of native women. People of heart will purchase the native goods before the inferior imports. I have record players from the 1960's which still work. I also have two Chinese record players sold in American stores in place of American players and each Chinese machine has failed to run after a few weeks. there are no returns, no refunds because they last that long, so you are forced to buy cheap Chinese goods. Our American businesses don't employ Americans to make good merchandise, they hire Chinese companies using slave labor to build cheap good which are forced on the American consumer. Our new lot in life is to buy Chinese goods. This "economy" is a profit driven example of last century's paradigm and cannot stand for long. America, as a debt ridden third world country is learning how to whittle toys for sale at the farmer's market. We make our own soap and sell the excess for enough to buy a bag of fresh donuts. We brew our own beer and grow our own tomatoes, potatoes and beans. We drill new wells. This is how we will survive, not millionaires opening up new factories, because they won't; it doesn't make profit-sense.
The single most important thing is access to information and free communication. If they fuck with the internet we are screwed, but we should remember that the internet was made by geeks fooling around, a new one can be built and the old one can be cleaned up and saved. Remember the experts trying to control us were the outsiders in High School, they live next door and they can't repair their own mowers. They should be easy to out-think.

"You know what, I am a bit sick of your holier than thou psuycho babble"
Well son I got tired of your holier than thou attitude too, but I hung in there. For crying out loud, Savant, why can't you look at your mis-spellings before you post? There's nothing psycho-babble in any of my posts and you STILL haven't had the courage to admit that your PhD was in Business Management or some other lame subject. What is your background that you can dismiss my statements and suppositions as "psycho-babble"? "Who the hell are you?" Some guy with a phony name talking and talking about what a great man you are and how you are so sentimental and compassionate and yet your last post was the first time I have read something from you that was not a wad of spit in someone's face. Still, though, you say "You have to understand the minds (and read the papers published by those that put it together)" which carries with it the clear implication that Connie does not understand and has not read the papers, whereas YOU have done both and are therefor superior to her knowledge. That's ego, my man, something you have a lot of. Still not answering my posts except to spit in my face. What about the micro loans, what about reorganizing, what about finding some kind of work for that woman to try other than whatever it is your company does, and you still won't reveal what it is you do!?

You have too much money and apparently plenty of time on your hands from making widgets. This is why small companies do so much better than yours. The owner has done all those hard tasks running the machinery and understands why the workers need air conditioning and profit sharing and natal leave. You slept on park benches for 2 whole years. Did you have to? Or were you pinching pennies? Did you have no friends or family to tap into for a couch? I had a buddy let me sleep in an abandoned car on his property, kept me alive for awhile. I slept in a closet for a couple weeks and in a basement for a few days. Big freaking deal. When I was young and homeless I got caught in a three day riot in Berkeley. I was working with the Free Church. The day after the riot broke up I was taking tear gas and pepper gas canisters out of the church from where the pigs tossed them, and brought them over the back alley fence. I spotted a wallet in the dirt and picked it up. The IDs (there were a few) showed the man was a socialist and the damn socialist started the riot, so I kept the $85 in cash. Then I went out into the street and found someone begging for pennies who looked pretty hungry and bought them a nice dinner and took them home to meet friends and sleep inside. I did NOT have sex with them. The remainder of the money went to sandals for me, a flute for me and a bottle of Mr. Pibb I thought that was a good example of how an economy should work. I did the hard work, the person responsible paid me and I shared my earnings with those in need. So I am not holier than you, Savant, I am just some guy who doesn't feel warm and fuzzy about all your worries about your multi-million dollar business problems. And I think that not everyone around me is a moron.

Haven't you noticed that more than one person reading your posts has reached the conclusion that you are arrogant and self involved? There's a reason for that. You accuse me of psycho-babble anytime I cut close to the bone, any time you feel threatened. Why "babble"? because you can't understand it? It's pretty simple, even a 20 year old would recognize it. You bluster and swear and stiffen up but you are afraid of facing certain truths and you are afraid of change, that the economy might evolve and leave you behind is a real fear. Is it because you are so stiff and unyielding that you might not be able to have a business in a bankrupted United States? Maybe you sense that in the new economy people will have to back each other up, and think more holistically and you don't actually like people getting too close? Again, evaluate objectively some of my suggestions for your business.
Maybe you will open up enough to reveal what it is you do and what your doctorate was in.

@Savant- "Seems to me too many people are too busy being engaged in how to write a script for someone else's life, because they lack the competence, drive, or skill to do anything for themselves."

and yet you attempt to write a script for others. You had a script for the person you fired, (the only one in all these years) and it just happened to be a woman. That's a bit revealing, kiddo. Do you hire blacks or latinos? Just wondering, gathering facts.

"they lack the competence, drive or skill to do ANYTHING for themselves." Well, I submit that I am in fact a more than competent artist and drafting technician. I believe, based on public reaction, that I have created beauty which has the capacity to last for thousands of years. I work a lot in ceramic, you see, which is the oldest medium people have used for art/religion. By the way, do YOU have a religion? It impacts on your philosophy of life and that can sometimes effect business. As far as drive, well I learned to build kilns using a multitude of fuels, I built several kilns, forges and foundries and taught myself how to use wood technology to take clay up to cone 10! I am driven to understand comparative religions, politics, neurology, cosmology, philosophy and humanity. Been working on my 6th reading of the Bible, various translations, a reasonable translation of the Holy Quran, numerous essays on the impact of environment on DNA and so on. Economics is in there too. How do people create an economy and what is the smallest human interaction which may reasonably be called "an economy"? Have you read about the "micro loan" trend in India and other "emerging" economies? It's fascinating, the difference between your kind of economy and their kind of economy. Co-ops are springing up to manufacture, export, create and market, and the only profit they seem to be interested in is enough to expand the business to employ more local workers. Maybe you could hook up with such a business and increase your profits by helping women somewhere in the world break out of economic slavery! But you won't, will you? because they must pull themselves up by their boot straps, even if they don't have them.

Hey in the beginning of our friendship you pounced on me for never going over point by point those links you supplied, although I insist I did in fact read your material, yet I have asked dozens of questions and supplied links for you, books to read etc and YOU, for your part, have refused to acknowledge you even saw those suggestions. That is not fair! not equitable! What did you think about my suggestions? So far I get the feeling you don't care for anything I might say, nothing has any merit whatsoever. That's a hard row to hoe, kiddo. I am not the enemy. A person who declares themselves to be a thinking man, even a depressed thinking man, should be interested in all the information they can get, especially information from areas with which you are not familiar. How else to expand your knowledge base? How else to improve yourself? Unless, of course, you feel you have "made it" and have no need to read further. geez, in a changing world that is not a wise way to go, trying to stop while in a moving train could get your head taken off by a mail sack. By the way, in this example I am the hobo riding underneath your private car. You would send in the guards to pry away my fingers and toss me to the ground sweeping by, whereas I would be willing to share my peanut butter sandwiches with you and your guards. That's essentially how I see us.

By the way, I'm an Aries, sign of the mind and leader of men, except I have a Pisces rising sign which waters down the fire a bit, like a soggy ram. So I know the answers but am unwilling to forcibly lead others as they might also have good ideas.

Savant, I figured it out. I figured you out. You are afraid and lashing out at everybody because of your fear. Oh you sure won't admit it because fear is a weakness in your world, but you are afraid that the current changes in the economy will leave you behind, that starting from nothing you became great and you might return to nothing. It's an understandable fear and I apologize if i rubbed salt into your wounds. But you are an arrogant, insulting jerk and you bring it on yourself. You have not failed to insult every single person on this forum at every possible chance. Nobody is as smart as you are, nobody has the insights you do. How do you know you are so smart?(Rhetorical question) because you got rich! You employ people, and you have fired someone who could not manage, in this recession, to sell what you are selling. Unless your prospective clients got a listen of you and decided that you were an arrogant jerk out for profit and uncaring of anyone but yourself.

What is it that you sell that isn't selling right now? Okay, that salesperson didn't pan out when others were. Yo found that they had absolutely no skills you could use in your business, so you fired them in the worst recession in history. That's a great call for a capitalist boss, but not so good for a humane boss.

How do you feel about small business in competition with yours, if such a thing is possible? I can't be sure because you never mention your company. I have a company, too, boss! "Deep Relief Studies: sells fine art sculpture, photography, and I design gardens. Nobody but the wealthy can afford artwork today and i live in a place where millionaires are a dime a dozen. They like the casinos and the race tracks. So I am growing vegetables, chickens and fruit to make enough food to get through the winter without having to buy those items from far away, making my business as green as I can get it. How about your business? Have you attempted Green Renovations to bring costs down without letting people go? In theory the govt will give you tax breaks, if you pay taxes.

".go do it BETTER yourself" Are you suggesting that I become a capitalist like you? I would suggest you sell all your goods and business and start doing work for Habitat for Humanity. You meet a better group of people, like an ex-President, and feel good about yourself. Seriously, you are on constant attack mode. That is typical of people who have struggled in a profit-taking environment to finally have enough money to be happy... only you are NOT happy, you are pissed at just about everybody. How do you treat your wife/husband? Too personal? You got kids? What if your child decided to be voluntarily poor? It's called "simplification"--http://simplitudes.com/simplicity/the-philosophy-of-voluntary-simplitudes. Would you condemn your child as a fool? or would you try to listen and understand?

and lay off Connie, she's making a point and you don't want to hear it. Stop with the insults. A truly intelligent and insightful person can pull off an argument without resorting to name calling.

I have little sympathy for naysayers and whiners. I was on the streets alone since I was 15 years old. I worked my ass off. I paid my OWN way thru college, I paid my own way to get a PhD and worked literally around the clock. I have never in my life had the time to sleep more than 4 hours per night. I took "self-responsibility" and saved so I could build something. I invested all I had...I never took a dime from anyone, but 64 people expect their check from ME each week. I am responsible to them...but no one is responsible for me.

If someone else did not obtain success in their life...then with some exceptions...it is their own fault. I came from NOTHING, in fact, probably far less than most posting here...( I doubt if many of you spent 2 years sleeping on park benches out in the streets). SO the way I see it, if I could get an education by my own efforts, and build businesses by my own efforts...I don't see any reason for any one else to be complaining!

Rather than complain and point fingers...go do it BETTER yourself. The world is an empty board, it only awaits for YOU to pick up the chalk an author the script for your own life. Seems to me too many people are too busy being engaged in how to write a script for someone else's life, because they lack the competence, drive, or skill to do anything for themselves.

You just love to be insulting and contrary, don't you? I fire ONE girl in my 27 years of business ownership and you immediately accuse me of poor communication skills. Trust me, some people are lazy and irresponsible! The fact that I bothered to even try when she never had more than a 27 hour workweek for her 40 hour/wk job is in fact a credit to me! That she refused to lift a finger for herself during this recession is HER fault...not mine. That she was given countless opportunity and STILL did not bother to show up to work on time, (or even bother to come in at all), is HER fault.

Stop patronizing me. Yes, I have heard of the Peter Principle...and I am not talking about Civil Servants...I was quite clear in stating private sector employees.

Every employee thinks there boss is the idiot, they all think they can do better. They are free to save their money, invest a few hundred thousand dollars of their own, assume all the legal, financial, and fudiciary responsibilities; and go out and do it better! Who is stopping them?

I have never met an employee yet that has any concept of what it is like to own a business. They simply expect their check to be there at the end of the week. It is MY responsbility to see to it that it is. They do not have the sleepless nights, nor have they ever given up THEIR salary. Several times during the course of business ownership I have gone without salary, so they can get theirs. In fact, I have not even taken a paycheck since last October, so I could help preserve THEIR jobs during this bad economy. Ironically, no employee stepped up and offered to give up their salary for the good of the company! They are employees because they like worry-free security.

I had an employee (through his own neglect), total a brand new $40,000 truck. Insurance on him alone escalated to $9,000/yr (auto only). MY company gets the lawsuit. MY company replaces the truck. He is "sorry", but if he quits today, he does not suffer the consequences one bit. I am responsible for all their actions...good and bad.

Tell you what...I will GIVE you one of my companies. FREE! I will sign it over to you. YOU are responsible for the $261,000/month overhead! But like most employees...they have it in their heads that there must be some corporate money tree growing outside, and all I have to do is go outside and pick off the money-leaves and pay the bills. They just never seem to realize that their cars, phones, equipment, offices, etc etc just don't materialize out of thin air for their convenience, that it is only in what we sell that produces to money to provide these things, and that if they are not doing their job, then bills cannot get paid.

IN 27 years...there has only been 3 years in which I earned more than my General Manager. Many small business owners are often among the least paid "employee" of the corporation...we invest in the HOPE of having a larger payoff someday...but for the most part, the small business owner never excels in leaps and bounds over the employee. But, for all the risk the Small Business owner takes, and all the stress that goes with it...If I want to go in late...TOUGH! I should have some benefit...afterall, I am paying YOUR salary (while I myself am not even taking one)..

I understand why you have never made more than 32k per year. I have no clue where you might have worked...because here in California, you cannot even hire a secretary that cheap!

I don't think you have any idea what it is like to try to sleep each night when you are responsbile for $261,000 worth of fixed bills each month! Small business owners have to collateralize their credit with their homes,personal gurantees, etc etc. IF those bills don't get met, it is not simply "i have to go bankrupt"...it is a matter of losing EVERYTHING! You think you have the guts and the brains to be so much better...YOU take it over. As I said, I will give it to you.

The way the demoncrats are in bed with business, I would have been better off voting with them rather than Republican.

@Savant- I think it is reasonable to have exception to a rule which has exceptions. Have you ever heard of or read about the "Peter Principle"? I know you wouldn't like it because it contradicts you, but it reinforces my observations of work in the real world. You go so far until you are in over your head and then you hit a glass ceiling. In point of fact in civil service, which is a big employer, idiots reside at the top and the few people who do the work are many layers down. It's not a superior worker who gets the raise, it's the best test taker or bullshit artist. But it doesn't matter what I believe or have observed, does it, Savant? It's your conclusions or the highway. sigh.
By the way, you keep talking about jobs with 6 figure salaries. Do you make that much? because if you do it's small wonder you can't figure me out. I never in my life made more than $32K/yr and then my back was crushed and now I try to live on liability and a tiny pension. I have no bootstraps to pull up!
"And this general scenario is rampant in this country" you did it again, you took one specific and made a general rule from it. I worked my ass off when I worked. Unlike the boss, who came in late, slept in his office and laid men off for daring to suggest that morale was bad. He was a moron with NO ethics and no concept of a fair shake. He was the grandson of the founder of the company. So using your logic all the bosses are lazy and incompetent. I know, because I knew one. But here you are, a BOSS. You by any chance generally vote Republican? Oh small wonder.... Every single time I have been employed by others I have found so many mistakes and errors in judgment that half my time was trying to mop up the messes left by my incompetent employers. Poor deed descriptions, bad mapping techniques, bad understanding of real property law etc etc. The bosses, not the tech.
"And as I said...my top people are sought out by my competitors ALL the time"
My gosh, you even refer to them as "my people" as if you own them. Not, "my employees" or even "friends".... no, they are your people, doing your work, per your instructions or they get a warning or five and then you fire them, even in the middle of a recession. So you were incapable of retraining that woman, eh? Couldn't reason with her, she didn't "get" your way of looking at things? Savant, you might begin to wonder if your communication skills are lacking somewhat.

"people get exactly what they deserve." Rape victims included? Little girls shot in the back of the head and buried in a shallow grave? My son with a tube in his gut and a hole in his throat deserved to be splattered into a near vegetative state? I deserve daily pain? and of course you deserve all your savings and investments, God is rewarding you because you are a superior human being, with a greater understanding of mankind and the souls of individuals. Man it must be great to be you. It's like I said in the first, any person who has to apply the label "savant' to his screen presence must be suffering from an over-active ego. I understand why you think the way you do, but I wonder if it has ever occurred to you that the "real world" varies by culture, by gender, by life experience? In India it was and maybe still is, quite common for a man to reach your level of wealth and then give it all away in order to sit in some secluded glade with rice bowl in hand, thinking about life, the gods and sometimes- nothing. You would be considered a very shallow and vain person out of synch with the real world responsibilities. So the same person can be many things to many people for various reasons. Life is more complicated than you seem to think.

You always tend to look to a philosophical exception rather than just accept the meaning of what is said within its simple context. Since over 70% of all private employment comes from small businesses, my axiom generally holds true. NO small business man/woman is going to lay-off or fire a "producer". The rule-of-thumb is that a "producing" employee must earn 3 times his cost to 'break-even'. (which is pay his salary, and the overhead that supports him, including non-producing support staff). So if I pay a guy $100,000/yr, then to continue that employment (at that rate), he needs to produce $300,000 worth of profit. If that same guy produces $1,000,000 worth of profit and asks for a raise...he will get it (and probably not have to even ask).

Conversely, I see so many "under-achievers" declaring that "they deserve"! I laid a person off once and saw that she had blogged all over the place how unfair it was she got laid off. She never posted how she was given 5 warnings over the course of a year...or how her attendance was the worst imaginable, or how she got caught texting and face-booking so many times that we eventually had to ban cell phones for all and ultimately put locks on all the computers. She never mentioned how she never achieved one single MINIMUM goal that was set for her. She never mentioned how we made long standing "minimums" that every other person had easily achieved, even MORE lenient (cut in half) just for her benefit.

And this general scenario is rampant in this country. People of "value" are desired by other companies. We are not speaking of some elitist group... but just ever day employees and employers. The "little people"...the MAJORITY.

And as I said...my top people are sought out by my competitors ALL the time. Oftentimes even enticed with MORE money...but my compensation and perks and all of the things that go into retaining GOOD employees is such that no one has ever quit any of my companies to go work for someone else. Ever. ANd that is the way things work in the "real" world that we both inhabit. Ultimately, people get exactly what they deserve...which is the foundation for all mental health (self-esteem, self-respect, self-determinism). Simple stuff.

@Savant- "A person that excels, will get promoted. Pretty simple." AWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAW!!! Two words: George Bush

I am so sorry I laughed, but that is so 80's or something. The shit rises to the top, that is why our government is run by shit heads. If you want to be some sort of honcho than you must have some shit in your head. I shook the shit out of my head a long time ago. I am a peon and I know it because as rich people go by they pee on me! Seriously, the more power and the more money any human being gets, the more stupid they become, the more they rely on others to think for them and the more they rely on their money to always be of value.

Suppose the actual last World Power dumps all of it's Federal Notes, all of it's dollars? Suppose they stop lending to America? Where is the army to line the borders, shoulder to shoulder, 24/7, listening to holes and upwards for planes? How will you stop the hungry from following their noses? Ya know how to stop them from coming up here? Broadcast that we all have AIDS, there is no money... and there isn't....and then shoot every single human being in America who consumes anything made elsewhere, or who hires somebody not born in America. By the time you are through our borders will be secure and nobody will want to risk their life to come here.

Sometimes I think this whole site is some kind of real-time fantasy group.

See, the reason Arizona exists is that the leadership in Mexico was so messed up, so dis-functional (like new York), that they did not "secure" their borders, and so white guys moved into the stinking desert. White guys... everybody here white, yes?.... white guys stole all of northern Mexico from the peasants who lived there. Now they have exhausted the resources in their stinking desert so they come looking for odd jobs in our stinking deserts, but we don't share nicely. Do what histery mandates: kill everybody who does not think as you do, or looks like you. Save the children for slaves and the women as... well you know. That is your standard answer to immigration but they always slather on words to disguise the blood and flesh of the matter. Just like in the so-called Holy Land, the great SW is going to go to war over water. Everything else is superfluous.

@Shawn- I wasn't mocking you, Shawn, relax! I was being ironic about the two of us being over 60, that's all, as in "for what it's worth..." Nobody listens.
"make a global empire realistically attainable." That's the area I start to have a "red flag" on. First: global- how global? Every freaking square inch, every human being, every city, state and farm? Seriously, how global do you mean? I cannot have an educated reaction until I know the terms. That's why I stopped going to Bible school. Second: empire- do you mean with an emperor, one human being at the top? Or a federation of empires? A corporate empire, if you will? There are various flavors of empires.
"So you apparently do not think a relatively small handful of men have an enormous amount of financial control and power, globally speaking."* HEY! No changing the subject, Mr_Siegel! A global empire being realistically attainable is absolutely NOT the same scenario as a small group of men having a great deal of financial control and power, globally speaking (what is the extent and definition of "global?") Will you insist on New Zealand as being part and parcel of this new empire of the globe? Okay, how about Easter Island? Because it makes a BIG difference when you are asking about "probability". Is anything probable at any given time? Is it happening NOW in your neighborhood?
* hate to say it, but what exactly is realistic compared to not bloody likely? Nobody makes mistakes? Nobody squeals? Nobody gets cold feet? Nobody tells a friend of a friend in order to get laid? The thing about groups of conspiratorial men is that they always take notes and always look at the happy outcomes instead of the likely outcomes. They are imminently predictable.

Will the black community be included in this new world order? because i am thinking I have known more than a few members of the Black Panthers who would have objected mightily. Furthermore, as the Census Bureau found out, there are regions of rural America that no damn govt' man dare come into vertical, without being sent out horizontal. So you need to move to rural America, go feral and learn to bang rock together.
***That was a metaphor for learning basic survival skills.

@William_Shirley

Look, I mentioned my age only in response to your, "This may seem cold to you, but I think i am older than you and I have seen more chaos, death and pain than you".

I prefer one step at a time. You say "not so obvious" is my proposition that the current virtually instantaneous global communications network, together with the enormous financial power and control exercised by a relatively small handful of men, make a global empire realistically attainable.

No one can argue the communications aspect (to whit, this blog, as picayune example), so you apparently do not think a relatively small handful of men have an enormous amount of financial control and power, globally speaking. Correct?

It's a questionable argument. Just like Tyson foods using illegal immigrants for a cost that is far below what they would have to pay an American citizen...so we see this as exploitative. However, from the perspective of the laborer, they see it as an opportunity, making FAR more here than they would have a made in the country the left.

But out of the 30 million businesses in this country, how many of them are engaged in such exploitive practices? We do have minimum wage requirements in this country...and IF immigration laws were actually enforced, this type of exploitation could not exist either.

And aside from minimum wage laws, there is also 'natural selection' (so to speak). A person that excels, will get promoted. Pretty simple. A person that is of value will get offers from other companies. To retain worthy employees, they must be compensated properly. As all things in life, it ultimately comes down to personal responsibility. Those that take no responsibility are always the ones screaming the most, "I deserve".

@savant re connie.... she didn't say,"the rich get richer at the EXPENSE of the poor." What she said was,"from getting rich on the backs of the poor"
Meaning, obviously, how the rich obtain their wealth by the actual physical labor of the poor. For instance, poor kids sewing sneakers for Nike are a great example of poor backs sweating for the benefit of the rich. Nike is a rich corporation. You will find very few examples of people using the sweat of their backs to produce a rich life. Boxers and football stars think they are getting rich, but their owners are far, far more wealthy. In contrast a field laborer working for pennies a day for a company like Green Giant still ends up with a few unscrambled brain cells.

@Connie- you're asking that the rich give up wealth for the poor and that flies in the face of the rich paradigm. The whole point of life is to make as much money as possible, especially if that wealth is made from the blood and the sweat of the underpaid working class. This is why so many unions are "giving back" their hard fought for contracts in order to retain some kind of job at all. The trend will stop when American peasants (you and me, for example) make the same daily wage of pennies as the Asian peasants. Then we will have world equity, with our handful of billionaires just as rich as their billionaires. Then they will have a BIG poker game in which one person will emerge with ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD! Let's hope it's in Euros because the dollar won't be worth spit.

However I would like to point out that as long as the grass grows and the wind blows we can still grow beans and potatoes and gather up firewood. Keep out of the way of the massah's carriage and you will be just fine.

What names do I call people? What the hell are you talking about?? What is "my kind of ilk"? Every time you start a conversation with a halfway decent tone, YOU always resort to either thinly veiled derisiveness or outright insulting. I made one or 2 direct insults at you months ago, because YOU were insulting everyone! And still your tone oozes with that sanctimonious patronization!

And yes, politicians and lobbyist are bedfellows, of the same corrupt nature if you will. The difference however is that politicians are SUPPOSED to hold themselves to a higher standard...THEY are supposed to the keepers of a just and civil society. They have the duty to uphold..hence, they are the most culpable. Then to compound their corruptness, is their arrogance. They THINK that they know best, that the people are too stupid to rule themselves, so that they need to intervene on our behalf for the good of mankind. They intervene only to serve themsevles...so their lie is compounded by their hypocrisy. So, although both halves can be said to be equally greedy, the ultimate bulk of responsibility for moral ineptitude lies with the politicians.

And even this is contextually limited. Again, is the inept and lazy who demand to "take from the rich" any less selfish than the man that wants to earn those riches for himself? The moral compass swings more in the favor of the person that actually DOES something and GIVES something than the person who just wishes to TAKE.

And segueying from there in regards to Connie, (and her plea for the poor)...it amazes me to no end that some lug nut twister on the assembly line of GM gets $76,000 plus unbeleivable compensation package and retirement benefits...and is pretty much guaranteed absolute job security irrespective of job performance (so long as he achieves the minimum requirement...which of course succeeds in only producing workers who do the absolute minimum). In contrast, the Engineer with a Master Degree starts at $42,000/yr...has to be an OVER-acheiver to secure his position and get ahead...and may ultimately contribute greatly to the growth of the company, and possibly society as a whole. But the "producer" has no job security, and does not leave in his wake a legacy debt that is a burden on society just for him/her having existed.

@Savant - "The fault is not with those that try, but with those that make such trying fruitful.".... so by that kind of thinking it is the fault of the women in the short skirt, not the rapist who attacks them? How about a "shared fault"? Could we agree that there is no real functional difference between lobbyists and politicians? The way others before us have written the laws, it seems a shared responsibility is expected in these cases. It is a crime to both offer a bribe and to accept the bribe.

"You continue to miss my point. " - See, now there is where you DO lose me. I get your point, do I need to spit it out back at you for confirmation? I keep telling you that the effects you describe are clear as sunshine and nobody is arguing that the rich are stripping wealth away for themselves and by controlling the governmental agencies they have essentially taken control of the government et al, and that is the definition of fascism. It's just handy to have a name for it. But if, as I am trying to get through to you, if it is all just a natural pattern for human beings placed in such positions of power to attempt to bang their breasts and establish themselves as "alpha male" by whatever the current standards are? Sure it is! We are half a neuron away from the Neanderthal, how bright do you think we are? Those guys who run BP, for example didn't have enough sense to know that a $500,000 check to protect the whole freaking well was pennies! They can't tie their shoes, so of course they act like they don't care. They can't care, they are ever so slightly autistic because of too much money. My point, which YOU don't seem to be able to suss out is that you and your ilk haven't the wherewithal to change this slide to the ocean so all your links and waving of the arms makes little sense. Having nothing to do, what would you do? You go online and insult people. I guess it makes you feel better. OH! I forgot. This has nothing to do with you or me, only everybody else. I guess I don't understand why you call people names. How will that pull us out of the quicksand?

@shawnsiegel- Well I thought it was pretty obvious that emperors ruled empires. THAT was obvious. The rest, not so obvious.
"I'm 65, by the way, not that it make a helluva lotta difference."
For whom? or for what? I just turned 60 and it seems to make a difference to me. The possibility of finding a way to raise enough money for a functional MRI exam under reasonable conditions is getting smaller every day. "The Butterfly and the Diving Bell" is an excellent 1st person account of what it is like to lie in bed all day, every day, not able to move and the people around you think you are vegetative. It's like working for the state. Jon made the choice not to provide a seat belt for his old VW van. I told him he would spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair, but being prescient does no good if you cannot be believed. We can't bring him home because he needs to be turned every 2 hours and I have a degenerative condition of the spine, so i can't even do that. Not enough visiting nurses in the area, no good neurologists and Jon is just a broken worker.

@Connie...

So Unions taking all those employee dues (directly from the wages of the worker) and dumping millions upon millions into political campaigns is not exploitative? (Not to mention all the golf course and resorts they have invested in that are not to be used by the people that actually paid for them).

Businesses do not have any monopoly on greed. People are greedy...Period. If it were not for the Democrats repealing the Glass-Steagall Act (which had been on the books since 1934 to PREVENT banks from acting as they did), and if it were not for Barny Franks and the game he played with Fannie and Freddie and the lies he told when reporting on them; if it were not for Clinton (after repealing Glass Stegall then MANDATING that banks hold a 40% portofolio of these "junk loans" to the unqualified, thereby forcing banks into positions they did not want to be in in the first place, but then he gave them a way out by creating the ability to create derivatives), then none of this would have probably happened.

And then when all the corruption of Fannie and Freddie start coming to light, Franklin Raines is forced out, getting a nice 60 million dollars in severence pay for his 3 years of "service". (and now Fannie and Freddie get a few billion of taxpayer stimulus money and EXEMPT from following the same laws imposed on other financial institutions)

(btw, I don't recall making any mention whatsoever about how much money I make or do not make...I merely pointed out the obvious fact...We have a progressive tax system, the more a person makes, the higher percentage of their income they pay in taxes).

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"Why is it immoral for you to desire, but moral for others to do so? Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it? If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it?"

“When you work in a modern factory, you are paid, not only for your labor, but for all the productive genius which has made that factory possible: for the work of the industrialist who built it, for the work of the investor who saved the money to risk on the untried and the new, for the work of the engineer who designed the machines of which you are pushing the levers, for the work of the inventor who created the product which you spend your time on making, for the work of the scientist who discovered the laws that went into the making of that product, for the work of the philosopher who taught men how to think and whom your spend your time denouncing."

“Every man is free to rise as far as he’s able or willing, but it’s only the degree to which he thinks that determines the degree to which he’ll rise. Physical labor as such can extend no further than the range of the moment. The man who does no more than physical labor, consumes the material value-equivalent of his own contribution to the process of production, and leaves no further value, neither for himself nor others. But the man who produces an idea in any field of rational endeavor-the man who discovers new knowledge-is the permanent benefactor of humanity. Material products can’t be shared, they belong to some ultimate consumer; it Is only the value of an idea that can be shared with unlimited numbers of men, making all sharers richer at no one’s sacrifice or loss, raising the productive capacity of whatever labor they perform. It is the value of his own time that the strong of the intellect transfers to the weak, letting them work on the jobs he discovered, while devoting his time to further discoveries. This is mutual trade to mutual advantage; the interests of the mind are one, no matter what the degree of intelligence, among men who desire to work and don’t seek or expect the unearned."

“In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability. The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the ‘competition’ between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of ‘exploitation’ for which you have damned the strong."

...P.S.....and IF you are committed to 'helping the poor', then YOU go out and make more than $200,000/yr so you can contribute $80,000+ of YOUR money to taxes and lend a bigger hand! The best way to help the poor, is to help yourself! For the more you make, the more you GET to give!! Isn't that a thrilling prospect for you?

Conniepae...

Exactly how do the rich get richer at the EXPENSE of the poor? What "rich" are you talking about?? The rich political movers and shakers? (which are for the most part Liberals) Who gave you YOUR job, some poor person? Most businesses in this country who hire 70% of the entire workforce are small businesses, and MOST small business owners are not even close to rich. According to Obama, only 2% of those small business owners make over $200,000/yr.

Seems to me through a plethora of entitlement programs, the poor make out at the EXPENSE of everyone else...even YOUR tax dollars are going to support them. SOME actually are in legitimate need of societal support...MANY abuse it.

Sure is some sweeping statement you made...and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, irrespective of how wrong and unsubstantiated it is.

" I agree that corporations take advantage of the laws in America to ingratiate themselves into the highest level of political power."....

Corporations could NOT take advantage of anything unless the politicians opened their door and held out their hands to give them such advantages. The fault is not with those that try, but with those that make such trying fruitful.

You continue to miss my point. It makes no difference if there is some global government or not, for THAT has no chance of success (as you point out). The point is that under the banner of this global rhetoric nobility that laws, rules, and regulations WILL be enacted (as they currently are at dizzying speeds) that will greatly reduce our freedoms, while simultaneously reducing individual wealth. (Dictators don't like bright or wealthy people too much)...and make no mistake about it...this Administration is creating as nearly as possible (without having yet stepping over the line), a dictatorship.

I don't harbor concerns about "everyone is out to get me"...this is not a "me" experience...we ALL are going to get taxed into oblivia and controlled and regulated in ways never before experienced in this country. Just the notion of "wealth-redistribution" should be enough of an indication.

I have more faith in trinkle-down wealth than in trinkle-up poverty.

I would absolutely refuse to have a microchip put in me. I wouldn't not let it be put in any of my family members either. I am a conservative Christian and can't help but think of end times when I read this. It scares me honestly.

@William_Shirley -

If my inference was incorrect, than the remainder of the first paragraph was indeed moot. But thanks for the prize, anyway.

I'm curious - are you including in what you say in my comment was the obvious, "The significant difference today is that the speed of global communication and the reach of the financial power, and attendant control, of a relative handful of men, is such that the globe can be realistically viewed as attainable empire."?

I'm 65, by the way, not that it make a helluva lotta difference.

I'm sorry about your boy.

@Shawnsiegel "many of those men who plotted to rule the world, is that they did! (rule the world, that is), contrary to what might be inferred from your post - that is, they ruled empires"

Yeshua Freaking Crips, why is everybody so goddam sideways that everything said must be inferring something? I DO NOT infer, I make a simple statement, sometimes i expand, I often use metaphors and symbols and refer to religion and history because we're talking about a single species with almost the same DNA as our ape cousins, the archetypes are the same, the same strings on the same joints of the puppets so they all move like most of the human race. Get it?

Yes and you win the "NO Shit" prize for stating the obvious. Emperors ruled over Empires. A couple of points of clarification: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence- that a few, or several if you insist, people ruled over others for a time, however long or brief, does not preclude many, many other plans to rule over others which exploded in their perps faces. That, you will agree, is obvious. I submit that the current movement, such as it is, will not produce a global super government because the appropriate factors or all wrong, IF the movement to which you refer is that contained within the documents Savant keeps slapping across my face. Now of course I have a normal name, I'm not a savant nor a psychic as refers to politics, but I have a keen eye for details and I have studied history, gathering up a nice library on the subjects. It's certainly within your rights to ridicule and dismiss my thoughts because they don't parallel your own, but that will not make them by that virtue, "right". SECOND point of clarification: the past is no guarantee of the future, but a man would be a fool to ignore where he has been.

This may seem cold to you, but I think i am older than you and I have seen more chaos, death and pain than you. The blood of my brother ran across my fingers as I searched for something that was "him". There is not one person alive today who will be alive in 200 years. They will all, even me, die their appointed deaths. You can't worry about the deaths of millions when the death of your child is coming. My child has been in a coma for over ten years, waking once or twice in that time to try to see me or speak to me. In your scenario my son will be turned out, euthanized, and cremated. I suppose they might give me his ashes. You'd think I would in a tizzy about this, and at times I am, but I am just a father and in this state I have no legal rights to my son because he is 35 years old. If our current governor has his way to balance the budget my son's facility will be shut down and he will be sent to a nursing home somewhere in the united states as a ward of the State, where he will die with a year or two as those places are swarming with anti-biotic resistant bacteria and he has no real immune system. I brought him out of one of those places before, he weighed 95 lbs and had a 104 fever. So I know what kind of place is in store for those who do not think clearly and plan ahead.

""The spiritual sense of our place in nature...can be traced to the origins of human civilization....The last vestige of organized goddess worship was eliminated by Christianity."- Al Gore" Yeah, but we all know Al is an idiot-savant. OOPS! Sorry, man, I wasn't playing off your stage name!

..."Am I afraid to answer the front door or pick up the phone? Nope. I do not suffer from paranoia. "
"They only call it paranoia if it isn't true. Sometimes they are out to get you."

If you went to the front door, peered through the spyhole and saw someone you did not know, frightening and fierce, would you be afraid to open the door? I would hope so! Have you ever had your phone tapped? I have, several times. I believe I have a nice fat file at the FBI, according to reliable sources. So, based on MY personal experiences, I AM afraid every time I pick up the phone. I hate phones, you never know who is listening, no matter what you are talking about. I am NOT paranoid, though, am I? I have been to the mountain and i have seen with my own eyes the promised land, and it was gray with smog and filled with shallow eyed gray little people, and over it all was a single corporate logo: Beatrice. Be afraid, be paranoid. But don't be foolish.

"For an obviously bright guy, you sure have some huge roadblocks to understanding this simple concept." and for an arrogant jerk you sure have a hard time listening to other people. You tune everything out except your own finely woven patterns. What the hell makes you think I do not recognize that the "average" voter is not a deep thinker? But I think it is because there is no actual "average" voter to point to, to lay one's hand upon. Are they conservative? progressive? it varies? What is there in the concept of "average" voter for you to work with except to insult the intelligence and integrity of an entire group of people, having met but a few, and shown nothing but contempt for? Hubris will be your undoing. The typical voter votes. Period. You can conclude from this that it is possible one voter is voting because they believe the votes are counted. Now factor me in, I vote because I am quite sure they do NOT count the votes. I therefor am forced to deal with the idea that they nevertheless want and/or need some voters to vote. So I pull down the brim of my hat and I vote. You cannot reduce people to numbers and learn anything but arithmetic, in my opinion.

"World civilization as we know it will soon end." as it has and always will do. Define "soon". Yeshua told his followers he would return in their "lifetime", or was it "their" lifetime? Every moment of your life hundreds of the little beings which make up your corporal self are killed off and cast aside, yet you remain. You have changed, and for those little workers maybe not for the better, but change in living things is inevitable.

A flea was walking in the woods when he came upon a huge boulder.
"Get out of my way!" he bellowed, but the stone would not move. He screamed again, "Get out of my way!" and still the stone would not move, so the flea tried to lift it up and shove it aside, but he could not hold it. It slipped from his fingers and crushed him. Nearby a great redwood tree had been watching the whole thing. "Too bad for that flea. He should have waited. I have been watching that mountain for many thousands of years and it's almost worn clean down."

@Savant (obviously)"Again you allude to me being some schizophrenic wing nut, which I take great exception to" ...As well you should, but go back and read the actual words without bothering to find an inference. I am not very subtle. I pointed out that the extent of the fears you are obsessed with compare remarkably with the kinds of fears which drive the paranoids with whom I am personally familiar. This is not meant to insult you, if you had spinach on your teeth i would point that out too. My problem with such vast conferences of evil and greedy people who have been patiently working through the decades to create a New World Order (that's an example of a similar image, not to be taken literally). I agree that the world is knitting together economically. I agree that corporations take advantage of the laws in America to ingratiate themselves into the highest level of political power. This set of configurations are classic fascist properties. However it is a chaotic collusion of implied agreements between similar people. I'm interested in a deeper understanding of the kinds of mentalities who crave this sort of power and "wealth". I think I have the impression you haven't any concern for that sort of inquiry. That just doesn't work for me, each corporation is merely people doing things along a common goal (in theory) So I have studied through the decades people who are bent this way and my conclusion is they work badly with others. Each strong, neurotic or even psychotic personality is prone to self serving actions, especially over the long haul. That's why there's no Whig party in America.

Now here's the thing: even though people in groups have a collective intelligence inversely proportional to the size of the group, actions come from individuals. They're not dragging logs here, they're taking over the Free World! Suppose Stalin had been a "team player"? Or Gandhi? Wouldn't have worked. You like to insult the intelligence of "people", which must relate to individuals generally, you compare them to one celled animals. In one respect I would agree: they move like one celled animals, or sometimes like schools of fish. Personally I prefer the metaphor of a herd of cattle. If you have interacted much with herds I am sure you know what I mean. But cattle need someone to lead them, a Judas goat if you will. Different sort of four legged sack of meat, but similar enough. A goat and a cow can be very clever and upset many an apple cart. If you saw a herd of cattle running your way in fierce abandon it would not be smart to consider the herd as a single unit, you need to focus on and control one or two of the top cows to influence the rest. That's how countries go to war.

That's all just to try to explain clearly enough for you my take of the present and future of this nation and much of the Western world. Looking at the resources and chaotic nature of the various factions of the "Go Global" movement, like splintering glaciers running down a steep slope, I can't see how anyone like you has a chance to "do" anything about the direction of the progression of the ice. But you can get out of the way.

Mortality control?!

Hot damn, I love it. I love English, and I have to admit, these psychotic bastards are inventive with it.

"Work", it said across the top of the arched gates of the Nazi concentration camps, as prisoners were marched in, the cruelty and burden of their ensuing treatment to cause the weight, density and life of their bodies ultimately to ebb off their bones, "sets you free".

Well said shawnsiegel. I didn't bother to point out the obvious of a "smaller" world. There is nothing wrong with the idea of 'sustainable development', it is only how they plan to evoke it that is problematic when viewed against individual freedoms and rights. This "conspiracy" or agenda is about to close the lid on those freedoms that used to be our Constitutional rights. What the final outcome may be a 1,000 years from now is not of much concern to me right now.

Obama made no secret of announcing: "we are 5 days away from fundamentally transforming America..". No one bothered to ask WHY or into WHAT. That statement in isolation should have sent shivers down any reasonably thinking persons spine, but when weighed against all the other statements made by those that have influenced, written, or shaped policy; it takes on much greater meaning. (The primary players in all of this are Maurice Strong, Al Gore, Mikhail Gorbachev, George Soros, David Rockefeller, et al) Here is what they have said:

"We are close to a time when all of humankind will envision a global agenda that encompasses a kind of Global Marshall Plan to address the
causes of poverty and suffering and environmental destruction all over the earth."- Al Gore

"We need a new paradigm of development in which the environment will be a priority. World civilization as we know it will soon end. We have very little time and we must act. If we can address the environmental problem, it will have to be done within a new system, a new paradigm. We have to change our mindset,
the way humankind views the world."- Mikhail Gorbachev

"I envisage the prinicles of the Earth Charter to be a new form of the ten commandments. They lay the foundation for a sustainable global earth community."- Mikhail Gorbachev (co-author of the Earth Charter)

"We require a central organizing principle - one agreed to voluntarily. Minor shifts in policy, moderate improvement in laws and regulations, rhetoric offered in lieu of genuine change - these are all forms of appeasement, designed to satisfy the public’s desire to believe that sacrifice, struggle and a wrenching transformation of society will not be necessary."- Al Gore

"Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse?
Isn't it our responsiblity to bring that about?"- Maurice Strong

"Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty, reduced resource consumption and set levels of mortality control."- Professor Maurice King

"We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects. We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of acres of presently settled land."- David Foreman

"The big threat to the planet is people: there are too many,doing too well economically and burning too much oil."– Sir James Lovelock

"Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning,
and suburban housing - are not sustainable."- Maurice Strong

"A reasonable estimate for an industrialized world society at the present North American material standard of living would be 1 billion. At the more frugal European standardof living, 2 to 3 billion would be possible."- United Nations,
Global Biodiversity Assessment Report

"The spiritual sense of our place in nature...can be traced to the origins of human civilization....The last vestige of organized goddess worship was eliminated by Christianity."- Al Gore

The problem, William Shirley, with many of those men who plotted to rule the world, is that they did! (rule the world, that is), contrary to what might be inferred from your post - that is, they ruled empires...corners, if you will, of the world. The significant difference today is that the speed of global communication and the reach of the financial power, and attendant control, of a relative handful of men, is such that the globe can be realistically viewed as attainable empire.

And as for many of those plotters whose "dreams died with them"? - so did tens of millions of their citizen subjects.

You imbue my explanations with intent they never possessed. There is a political agenda...PERIOD. Irrespective the philosophy and historical rhetoric, the impact of these policies is going to affect our lives, here and now. It's ultimate success; when weighed against that they wish to accomplish; is questionable. I seem to think it has much greater chance of success nowadays, then it did 100 years ago, (or a 1,000), for a myriad of reasons I wont get into.

Again you allude to me being some schizophrenic wing nut, which I take great exception to. Just because I suggest policy is going to affect our lives and "here" is from whence this policy emanates, does not make me a paranoid. It makes me informed...period. How I might "react" to that information is what would determine paranoia. Just like "The Patriot Act" was an insidious piece of legislation (although VERY noble sounding, for the 'worst' the bill is, characteristically the better it sounds). Does the Patriot Act exist? Yes, it does. Am I afraid to answer the front door or pick up the phone? Nope. I do not suffer from paranoia.

Again, you resort to name calling. This is what put me in opposition to you in the first place. Before you ever said a word to me, I read post after post of you "putting down" other people for any reason you could find.

Every Administration has an "agenda". When campaigning, they call it a "platform". There is very little Truth conveyed in these "platforms", they are merely lip service to dupe the clueless. Understanding what that agenda may be and its impact upon one's life is left to those that take the time to follow, look, research, and understand...something that every voter should do before they cast a vote.

That I called the average voter a "paramecium" does not indicate anything psychologically about me. It is well known that the average voter is not the sharpest knife in the drawer...and of course the politicians capitalize upon this. It was McNamara who said: "....who cares, the average voter doesn't bother to read". He was quite right.

For an obviously bright guy, you sure have some huge roadblocks to understanding this simple concept.

"If this were just some nebulous "conspiracy", then there would not be meetings, documents, endorsements, etc etc. This is all easily verifiable."
"Conspiracy: An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act"
I propose that in such an expansive "conspiracy" (see definition) there would, in fact, be meetings, documents and endorsements. They need not be meetings in the flesh, thanks to the internet, but certainly individuals would have to interact with one another and since these are all high level businessmen we are speaking of I expect the would be most comfortable in a business-like environment. I also propose that in a certain political/business environment even without a sinister agenda things would continue to move along in the same manner, with power and wealth being collected by the few, to the detriment of the many and with the idea that like a tournament eventually "there can be only one."

"All politics is couched in "noble ideas" as an obfuscation to mask a more nefarious intent; inasmuch the general public on a whole has the intellect of a paramecium and vote upon either looks, sound bytes, or some other trite consideration. The public is easily duped." Savant, calling the society in which you live as being populated by paramecium-brained idiots sounds a hell of a lot like hubris. Pardon me if that insults you. I did not call you arrogant, but it walks like a duck and quacks. I see in this statement that you have no respect for any political action, yet this whole conversation deals with political action, or action "by the people". How can anyone be sure at this point that YOU haven't any nefarious intent? You have certainly burned me a few times when I was not a threat and my comments primarily innocent. You're not going to like this but just read my words and do not try to see depths which are not there. I am a simple man and i try to speak clearly. I have known in my life several paranoid schizophrenics. My sister in law was one, a sever case. She was as sure as you were that a vast number of people were plotting to ruin her. Her arguments were complex and sometimes curious, but they all connected the dots for her. In fact, it is a symptom of the disease to search out unconnected "facts" and link them into a conspiracy (there's that word again) against her. Of course I am not trying to imply you are unstable, but I think it wise to avoid the appearances of simple paranoia.

Here's another comment you won't like but I have to say it, it works for me: have you ever watched "South Park"? Of course not.... but there was an episode wherein a deranged man took one of the children hostage. he set up a screen and slide projector and began showing slides of him at various places in the world, Paris, Grand Canyon, etc. They looked like movies of a vacation. Each time a new slide came up he would turn to the kid and say "See? Don't you see? There! and There!" But the kid couldn't see anything but a man standing in front of the Washington Monument, the Grand canyon etc. He couldn't see a damn thing. You keep showing me slides of your convictions and all I see is a man who thinks the bus is going to jump the curb and kill us all.

I'm getting nowhere here. You have a fixation and I cannot see any real logic here, just rants, insults and bluster.

Organizations are like gestalts. The minds and thoughts may crowd together, but they cannot merge, it goes against the substance of humanity. it is a kind of death to submerge yourself in a group. The sentient members of the species will not tolerate such domination for very long. As a result the military, for instance, will overthrow a tyrant even though they put him in office. Look how many times Saddam had to kill a suspected assassin. Even the demi-god Hitler dodged a bullet or two. There are different kinds of greed and in a conspiracy such as you postulate,(even if you don't like the word) the individual members expect that each other member has the same sort of greed, but this flies in the face of history. No two people have the same goals. Thus it is that a complex system of controls and domination such as you fear will melt down of it's own corruption. Every single time it has been tried it has failed. You cannot remove the heart from the body politic without killing the body.

So maybe They are working on control of the masses. TV has that skill locked down, and Fox news is a great example of the kind of idiots who are swept up in a world wide plot to rule the world. But that is a bit of my point. I look at the people who seem to be involved in this evolutionary trend toward fascism and global government and I see ignorance of human nature and an atheistic take on the universe. Sure, maybe some of Hitler's men worshiped the Norse gods, but the Norse gods were not demons, they protected the common man. So Hitler was destroyed by his own madness. At the moment we are in a prolonged war with the Muslims, and Christians and Jews are trying to start a world war to destroy a philosophy and a faith. They cannot succeed, it can never work. Yeah there are some minor genocides going on, but so what? If a religion is a real religion the Deities produced will protect the devotees. Jews and Christians worship a homicidal misogynist and the Muslims worship a clone of the same. They change the rules and argue over holy days, but it is the same God. Now in the region of the two great rivers there exists Inanna-Ishtar, who can be the Goddess of Life, or of Death. We have poured millions of gallons of blood into the Holy River Euphrates and that has summoned up Her deadly aspect. as a result we have bodies floating out to sea and the sea is filled with blood and oil. In the legend, though, they trick Inanna-Ishtar by filling a plain with red dyed beer so it would look like blood. She hastened to drink it all up, thirsty from her rampage, became drunk and slept. When she awoke she was again the Goddess of Life.

My point, my dear Savant is that for tens of thousands of years men have plotted to rule the world, even as the world grew in size, so did their greed. but in the end they were just men, mortal and flawed and their dreams died with them. I suggest you think about this and understand why no one suggested they kill the Goddess. It was best to give her what she needed, rather than that for which she thirsted. Give the men titles, positions of respect and unlimited money and they will be happy not to punish the slaves for being slaves. Does it matter which group of rich white men make the rules? Most people live slightly out of the laws anyway and dictators are mortal. If Dick Cheney was made master of the country(again) how long before his "heart" burst asunder? Then things would change again, and again and if you just survive long enough you might get a chance to influence the flow of the Great River. Now is not the time to act, now is the time to study and think.

You miss the significance of the Earth Charter and the Bertrand Russell quote. The B.R. quote is embedded in the founding documents of UNESCO, it is not just arbitrarily made up. As I said...it is on page 61 of UNESCO's founding charter.

Bertrand Russell and Julian Huxley (founder of UNESCO) were contemporaries, and I guess Julian was quite enamored with Russell because he built UNESCO on a lot of Bertrand Russell philosophies and quotes him extensively in those founding documents. (He does not quote Chomsky, hence I did not give Chomsky as a reference). My posts contain only those quotes contained in the original documents, so they are not "examples".

Yes, the Earth Charter is only 5 pages. Yes, it all sounds noble. In fact, even Agenda 21 sounds noble. Prior to "death by climate change" the mantra was "death by over-population". Some focus group probably did a study which found that a political campaign ran upon the premise of "we have to kill 3-4 billion people in order to survive", did not bode well with the voting public. All politics is couched in "noble ideas" as an obfuscation to mask a more nefarious intent; inasmuch the general public on a whole has the intellect of a paramecium and vote upon either looks, sound bytes, or some other trite consideration. The public is easily duped.

You still use the word "conspiracy", and I still do not quite understand that. Agenda 21 and the Earth Charter work hand in hand with each other. They are an overarching political blueprint. That blueprint has been followed and implemented in ALL policy, it is a driving political force. May 3rd-14th of this year Agenda 21 had their 18th meeting in NYC with 179 signatory nations, 2,646 CSO's, over 80,000 representatives from NGOs with 'observer status'. The programme was called "The 4th Cycle of Implementation". The title alone implies that 3 cycles have already been implemented (and they have!). The Johannesburg Summit of 2002 was a REAL global meeting. All that summit was was a re-affirmation of the Agenda 21 protocols. It is no "conspiracy when the facts can easily be verified. For example, right from the USDA and EPA websites:

USDA: “The U.S. Government has joined with foreign governments, international organizations, non-governmental organizations, academia, and the private sector to plan and implement voluntary partnerships that promote economic growth, social development and environmental stewardship. For example, at the World Summit on Sustainable Development held in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 2002, the United States established and/or joined more than 20 partnerships to advance sustainable development. In addition, USAID, operating under the new Global Development Alliance (GDA) business model, has initiated or significantly expanded more than 200 public-private alliances in 2002 and 2003″.

“The United Nations recently passed a resolution on partnerships, “Towards Global Partnerships” (A/RES/58/129), and additional information regarding international sustainable development partnership efforts may be found at the UN’s Commission on Sustainable Development“.

EPA: “The United States government is extensively engaged in international climate change activities in areas such as science, mitigation and environmental monitoring. EPA actively participates in multilateral and bilateral activities by establishing partnerships and providing leadership and technical expertise. Multilaterally, the United States is a strong supporter of activities under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)“.

Further...there are over 28,000 CSOs all pushing this same agenda. The end result is complete government control over every aspect of our lives. To save Mother Earth, Agenda 21 argues that the UN must oversee strict regulation of our planet’s atmosphere, lakes, streams, rivers, coastal waters, wetlands, oceans, forests, jungles, grasslands, deserts, tundra, mountains, urban areas, rural areas, health care, education, nutrition, agriculture, labor, production, consumption – in short, everything. The most accessible version of the document to come out following the Rio summit was published under the title Agenda 21: The Earth Summit Strategy to Save Our Planet (Earthpress, 1993). Edited by environmental-activist attorney Daniel Sitarz and enthusiastically endorsed by Earth Summit chief Maurice Strong, the book provides a powerful, if unintended, indictment of the UN treaty. It approvingly admits:

“Agenda 21 proposes an array of actions which are intended to be implemented by every person on Earth…. It calls for specific changes in the activities of all people….“Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced – a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level”.

The admission is staggering. Look again: “all human society,” “every person on Earth,” “every human action,” “every level,” “demand,” “require.” The totalitarian power grab is so stunningly transparent that it seems impossible that any nation would endorse it. Yet it was unanimously endorsed by all of the countries in attendance, including the United States.

Do we see these things happening in our Society? Yes, we do! All policy can be traced back to Agenda 21.

Yes, union membership is down, which is why Obama made the promise to get the EFCA passed (the card-check bill). It is also why SEIU has gone international (and ACORN).

Perhaps our difference is that you are content oriented, whereas I am context orientated. No one can look at some singular piece of Washington drivel and then limit a discussion based only on the content, without consideration of the CONTEXT from which it flows. These people are just not pulling something out of their butts and giving it a try. It ALL has a reason, and it has a purpose. You have to connect the dots. I don't go off on some tangent about the Illuminati, Rotschilds, or some speculative or hysterical "conspiracies" that will forever remain unprovable. I provide real facts, backed up by real documents. If this were just some nebulous "conspiracy", then there would not be meetings, documents, endorsements, etc etc. This is all easily verifiable.

It amazes me how the Republicans are always deemed as the "fat cats in bed with big business", when the facts show that big business donates much more campaign and lobbying money to the Democrats! Admittedly however, the Republicans are using fascists tactics (the use of PPP's, just like Hitler did), however, the Democrats are using Communist tactics (social reforms) just as Stalin did. I guess that is why Obama has 37 self-avowed Marxist/Communists/Radicals as his "czars". Bush probably had just as many "fascist" advisors...of that I am not certain.

@War_Gods Here's another analogy for you: I am on the sidewalk waiting for a bus. A bus approaches and a man standing next to me starts shouting that the bus is going to jump the curb and kill us all. I'm not seeing it, the driver has eye contact with me, the curb is high and the bus is slowing down. Should I jump away onto the lawn and look like a fool when the bus stops, or do I continue to trust my vision and reasoning rather than a shouter? Now add to this that the man shouting begins to call me insulting names, like "infant" and "fool". I have no inclination to jump. Maybe I'll get hit, maybe not. Sure avoiding being foolish is not always the correct thing to do in a dangerous situation. I would be willing to run from a burning building bare-ass naked rather than wait til I get my pants on. Contrary to rumor, I am no fool.

"I think you come from a background where let it go and see what comes of it is the approach," Not even close. I am a detail fanatic. I like the eyes dotted and the tees crossed. I always look for the details before I move. But I look thoroughly! In the case of this great danger you folks worry about I have to say I have seen it all before. I was part of a group of men and women in the 70's who were preparing a site in a wilderness area to hide out in while Nixon destroyed our society. I've lived in a commune, traveled with migrant workers, instructed sculpture in a small liberal arts college. I was at People's Park during the riots, i watched policemen burst into flames from gasoline bombs and I have seen old women beaten down by other policemen for the crime of existing within range. I have stared down the barrel of more than one gun contemplating how much of my life I had left. I am no fool.

"And if we do not attempt to make a stand we are left with no choice but to follow" I disagree heartily. Rarely are there but two choices. I suggest a reading of "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi Myamoto. You attack when you are ready, not when your opponent is ready. You prepare yourself but at the moment of contact you should be reaching for the Void, not an intellectual evaluation of the fight. In both our universes great powers are struggling for control of great wealth and territory, but the bull doesn't attack the flea on his back, he attacks the matador. AND no matter how many fleas agree to take down the bull they are but fleas and if they attract his attention he will scrape them off on the wall. You need to know your own strengths and the strengths of those around you. Savant is arrogant and insulting. I could never work with such a shallow mind, even if he throws a thousand links at me, because each and every link is selected to reinforce what he already believes. A person who cannot see clearly beyond his own expectations is a poor partner in a fight. Remember to seek the Void and control the Center, that is the way to defeat an enemy.

Regarding the "Earth Charter", by any chance are you NOT talking about:
http://www.rochesteralliance.org/index_files/Earth_Charter.pdf?
because that document is but 5 pages long and seems like a pretty nice thing. There is no talk about taking over anything, simply being aware of changing social and economic realities brought about in large part by the internet and the natural and steady globalization of human society. I don't see that as a threat. I see NAFTA as a threat, but not this Earth Charter. Witness:
"The Earth Charter is a declaration of fundamental ethical principles for building a just, sustainable and peaceful global society in the 21st century. It seeks to inspire in all people a new sense of global interdependence and shared responsibility for the well-being of the whole human family, the greater community of life, and future generations. It is a vision of hope and a call to action."
Comments? Because I don't find this proposal a threat. It seems to be recognizing that we need to care for more than our individual desires and have some empathy for the rest of the life on the planet.

Ummm, if you are going to add quotes from Bertrand Russell, a member of the nobility and something of a fruitcake, then I get to add quotes from Chomsky. My man would have a better set of political credentials than a philosopher who liked group sex and hated government. I cannot understand, frankly why you would toss in that load of bull at the last minute. If you quoted Lenin, or Hitler or even Obama, but Russell? I don't see the value and I sure as hell don't see where he has had any widespread influence on American politics. If a President had written something like that, sure, it would be alarming, but as far as I can tell the Republicans are the closest thing we have to fans of his ideas, and even they pick and choose which parts to adopt. The dumbing down of American children has been carried out primarily by the Republicans but they are following Mussolini's playbook, not Russells. Could you elucidate? Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure to correspond with free thinkers, even if they do insult me at every turn.

Savant! You're still talking at me! Okay, let's see what we have. I absolutely agree with your comments about the failure of our government to provide basic obligations. I'd suggest more like an across the board 10% tax, but 8% might do it.

Yes, I speak of the Right as fascists simply because it seems to me that it was Right wing administrations who were most eager to sell the country out to the corporations. The 5 Justices who declared corporations have the right to unlimited bribes were all lifelong Republicans. But I refer to our entire government as Fascist based on the article Mussolini wrote for the Italian Encyclopedia. The definition he supplied (and he ought to know!) read pretty much exactly like the Republican platform during the last election. here's a link for you if you're interested: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

Well, Savant, I apologize if I have implied the Left was any more competent than the Right. I have no such illusions, the Left (such as it is) has done nothing to stop the slide into Fascism and participated gladly in the illegal wars the Republicans started. They deserve at least half of the blame for the destruction of our sad little republic.

Joe, thanks again for the insults. I referred to Nostradamus and Revelations as crap. Let's look at the word: crap is a euphemism for feces, which is processed food and other material which has passed through the bowels. As a metaphor for these predictions and dreams it calls forth the image of bits and pieces of previous religions, philosophies and rumors, taken in, chewed up and stirred up and deposited for all to observe. But come on, have you read them? How about I call it "nonsense"? Would that make you happy? I am NOT, absolutely NOT trying to insult your intelligence in any way, but if you believe in the so-called predictions of Nostradamus i will certainly begin to have doubts about you. Back to Mr. Noir.

Why do you continue to state i have never followed your links or read the material? Simply because I find it to be nonsense? I don't expect people to agree with my statements, even maybe find it nonsense. That's just human nature. Obviously you feel comfortable insulting my intelligence with every post since I arrived here but I don't take it personally. You have no idea who I am or anything about my history, so naturally any opinion you have about my intellect will be flawed. I guess you want me to go over point by point the concept of a vast conspiracy such as you seem to feel exists, but it's just such a silly and weak idea i can't figure out where to start. To begin with, if we can agree that not every conversation between two politicians is not a conspiracy and if we can acknowledge that every single person involved with the government has multiple agendas, i would posit that rather than a conspiracy we have something more of a gestalt which directs the individual actors to a common goal. This would not need an actual conspiracy, it would just be a fact of human nature. You give people who are needy for approval and greedy for material wealth and you put them in charge of almost unlimited money and power and those people are going to screw up everybody else for as much of that power as they can grab. Since they all seem to consider themselves above the law, maybe because they write them, they have no problem killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in order to move their agenda along. But they don't need a conspiracy to do that, is my point.

As far as my "pontification", I admit I have been accused of arrogance and pontification before, but like you I sincerely believe in what I believe, so naturally my wording will sound as if I have no doubts, but quite truthfully, my confidence in my conclusions should not be construed as a condemnation of yours and certainly not a measured personal insult. This is the way I speak and write. i try to be clear as I have found that many people have not read what I have read or experienced what I have and so they live in a different world. I am not saying my world is the only one, but I do retain the right to hold my beliefs as dearly as you hold yours. That seems mighty fair to me. I am not trying to convince you of anything, that would be silly in these circumstances and I hope you are not trying to upset my applecart.

I'm not saying that people in government are not changing the political landscape and this is in the direction of a fascist form of government, I am simply doubting that it is a formal conspiracy of the kind you seem to be portraying. Human nature and greed is a good common mix for just this sort of movement. It's also cyclical. Every few years we drift in that direction and then things change and drift in a leftward direction. It's like the way the stock market is designed to have huge peaks and valleys in order to make the rich even more wealthy. Manipulation of the market is part of the equation. History clearly shows this regular pattern of democracies folding up and becoming dictatorship. Seems we can't trust people with power and wealth, they always want more. I therefor tend to see a natural progression of political evolution where you might see a conspiracy. I just don't see the need for collusion when human nature will do the same thing if we just let it.

I tell you what, you cool it with the snarky insults and I will try not to be too sure of myself. Would that help advance this conversation? Would you agree to look at links I provide? because I get the feeling that your lack of respect for me would get in the way.

I tried to convey the idea that I believe that "it" doesn't need a lot of conspiratorial back room negotiations when human nature will produce the same result. The rich are scum of the earth, they leave blood and death in their wake. No poor person ever invaded another country. It is always the nobility who start the wars and always the poor who die in them. Any comments?

"Strengthening the role of workers and their trade unions"... I am under the distinct impression that trade unions are being weakened by our economic policies under both democratic and republican administrations. Their membership is down, their influence is down and every state is forcing unions to tear up their contracts and settle for fewer benefits and lower salaries. Look at the current situation in New York. The governor is threatening to close hospitals and schools and shut down the government if the legislators do not accept his budget plan, which includes the unions giving back virtual every advance they have made in the last 20 years. That is not strengthening the unions, it is destroying them.

"But you do not care much about facts (which explains why you do not bother to look at anyones provided links)" Now here again you choose to insult both my intelligence and my honesty. I don't think I have insulted you nearly as much as you have me. AND once again you declare, with no evidence, that I do not read your links. Savant, it is possible to read every word you shove at me and still reach a different conclusion. It's your ego that is getting in the way. If you can show me something besides what I have read so far I might be willing to admit your idea of a vast conspiracy working on the destruction of America is plausible. So far I am reading stuff I have heard a thousand times before and no matter who writes it, it still sounds like crap to me. I'm sorry, but that is the word that works for me. No amount of insulting me will get me to leave behind my reasoning and adopt yours when my sad little brain has studied the issues and reached a different conclusion. Why does that bother you so much? I'm not upset that you have decided things about me and mine that are incorrect and insulting, it's just the way you think.

How about government stopped working for the people and let us take care of ourselves? Government should provide national security, collect minimal taxes to meet its obligation, (8% would meet every current obligation the government now has), and have some form of international trade.

You always speak of the Right as psychotic or fascists, and in your armchair analysis fail to point out the corruption, hypocrisy, and destructiveness of the Left.

Further, you continue to put down everyone, and their ideas, YET, have never bothered to read a single link provided you so that you can respond to the speaker, rather than just pontificate for what seemingly appears to be for the sole benefit of hearing yourself talk.

You eschew Agenda 21, and YOU point out how such overarching policies cannot work. Well, despite what YOU think, it is working. Almost 20 years in the making and slowly creating an infrastructure to promulgate it, has finally succeeded. The repealing of Glass-Steagall was the first MAJOR start. Another nifty trick that Clinton pulled was to have amended the Federal Advisory Committee Act, thus enabling NGOs and CSOs to interface with Congress and Society in ways never intended. He also reformed the laws in regards to grants, so now any accredited NGO is raking in our taxpayer dollars. Further, the de-regulation and lack of oversight in regards to Public-Private Partnerships has further eroded freedom while re-distributing wealth in accordance to these new NGO laws that essentially say: "I will give you money to provide me a report that gives me the outcome I want to hear...and in exchange for this money you must support my agenda and you must champion both ME and my cause".

SO while you say "it cannot work"...the fact is, it IS working. But you do not care much about facts (which explains why you do not bother to look at anyones provided links). ICLEI is in EVERY state, county, and most major cities in the US, promoting "sustainable development" as outlined in Agenda 21. These (4) chapters alone, just by LOOKING at their titles...one could discern how much of this has thoroughly infested our society:

Chapter 27. Strengthening the role of non-governmental organizations: partners for sustainable development (goal satisfied)

Chapter 28. Local authorities' initiatives in support of Agenda 21 (goal satisfied)

Chapter 29. Strengthening the role of workers and their trade unions (Obama promised the Unions he would pass the EFCA, then this goal will be fully satisfed, although even without the EFCA, it is underway)

Chapter 30. Strengthening the role of business and industry (PPPs...goal satisfied)

Further, running concurrent with Agenda 21 is the Earth Charter, adopted by UNESCO and signed by G.W. Bush in 2000. The Earth Charter is the educational program to undermine classical religion (being done as we speak) and to propagandize children into acceptance of Agenda 21. The Earth Charter is largely being orcehstrated by the UN University of Peace (co-chaired by Maurice Strong who was the co-author of the Earth Charter). It is fulminating thru our society via Robert Muller's schools and THe Earth Scouts.

UNESCO adopted the Earth Charter because it dovetails precisely with the founding principles and philosophies of UNESCO. Here is (1) example of many:

It is to be expected that advances in physiology and psychology will give governments much more control over individual mentality than they now have even in totalitarian countries. Fichte laid it down that education should aim at destroying free will, so that, after pupils have left school, they shall be incapable, throughout the rest of their lives, of thinking or acting otherwise than as their schoolmasters would have wished. But in his day this was an unattainable ideal: what he regarded as the best system in existence produced Karl Marx. In future such failures are not likely to occur where there is dictatorship. Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. Even if all are miserable, all will believe themselves happy, because the government will tell them that they are so.” - page 61

More psychobabble^ Anyone who refers to prophecy as 'crap' clearly has a flawed argument.

Articles like this seem to be able to predict the future based on tea leaves or something: "Children conceived by parents who are already covered under the public option will more than likely be implanted with a chip by the consent of the parent." This is sheer speculation, not objective reporting. Children are not inoculated without the parent's permission. Unless it is a threat to the child's health, in which case you still have to go through a judge, the State cannot interfere with a parent's right to raise their children the way they see fit. Note that we allow children to be home schooled, we can refuse to allow our children to have blood transfusion, too. So you could refuse to have a chip implanted in your child, or even yourself. Just claim religious obligations or something.

I am constantly amazed at how people can confuse a label with it's object. They speak of "government" as if it were a great beast left over from the Paleolithic Age. Government is people doing work for the greater population. It can be your neighbor, your spouse, even your child. I worked for the government for over 30 years, I was part of the government. Some of my supervisors were idiots at their Peter principle point and some were quite intelligent and informed. Just like a large party where some are sober and some are not we manage to nevertheless have a common goal of a good time with nobody being hurt. Instead of saying "The government is plotting to get us!" try saying "The majority of my neighbors are plotting to get us!" It sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? Even paranoid? The leaders of the various political parties plan and scheme to get votes to retain control of our tax dollars for their personal enrichment. It's a natural thing to want to steal that which is not well guarded, at least in a society where greed is a virtue. But a cursory glance at the history of the world shows that everything tends to balance out. If America became more of a dictatorship the world would respond accordingly. The "liberals" would most likely leave, the intellectuals would either stay to fight for freedom and liberty and end up in the gulag. The conservative would begin knifing one another for control of what was left. Eventually the conservative fascist movement would collapse of it's own corruption and we could try once again to build a nation based on a balance of rights vs obligations to society. You have to keep trying.

Joe, you don't know me enough to insult me like that. Hard to understand why you lash out at me but leave a lunatic like Vannario alone. Did you mean to say "pseudo-intellectual"? What exactly about my statement do you consider "pseudo"? Not to say I am an intellectual by any means, but I have read several highly respected authors and have been interested in both politics and religions for many decades. I think I'm a careful thinker, at least I try to find a variety of views to sift through and i have come to the conclusion that our country is doing what most republican empires do: drift into fascism, start a few wars, bankrupt themselves morally and financially and then collapse into smaller states. I expect America will do this too and it would be a good idea to plan for it. It's not the "End Times", not even the end of civilization, but it is certainly the beginning of the end of something. Patterns of civilizations are not Laws of the Universe. We don't have to continue down the fascist road, but as you must have noticed, a great number of right wingers are ready to change this country to suit their bigoted views, even to the point of violent confrontation.

Finally Joe, what was "predicted"? Nostradamus and revelations both predicted crap, but that's all it is: crap. One might suggest a potential future based on current events, as I have, but to predict with any detail what millions of people might do at any one time is just foolishness. I don't get your point. I understand you disagree with something I said but i can't find it in your post. Kindly elucidate. (There's an intellectual wording for you, Joe.)

William cut it with the pseudo-intellect psychobabble,you can dissect all you want but this was predicted.

I cannot belive 3.369 people like this !
MAYBE THIS IS THE BEGUINING, MAYBE
THE ANTICHRIST, WE NEVER KNOW ! I WOULD NOT ACEPT IT.
He [False Prophet] also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (Revelation 13:1-18).

And when you started your diatribe by comparing my intellect to that of an infants I lost interest in you. I still say this whole idea of a massive global conspiracy, or a massive national conspiracy fits right in with the ideas that people object to a changing society by becoming angry and suspicious. You turn that anger on anyone who disagrees.

NO, nothing in the links, posts, pouts and rants makes it sound any more doable, reasonable, possible, practical or potentially happening. It would require people of huge damaged egos to convince other equally damaged people to agree on how to do something that will bring great power to a sick person who needs rehab but is getting encouragement. The government is us. We mean you no harm. I have a Town Building Inspector who gets pissed off every time I paint the hen house and he sends me a certified letter telling me I cannot have chickens on my property. Seems a few years ago they created "building codes" and try to impose them on me. I write back and tell them to shove it, I have always had hens, ducks, horses and goats on this property. they back off. Now they are allowing a building contractor to destroy a 20 acre wetlands by passing a town law amending the definition of a wetlands. So in theory he's building on the one part of the property which, if taken alone, would not be a wetlands. The entire street came to the meeting and objected, but it was passed anyway because NY does not have referendum. So the trees will come down and the animals will run away but some rich guy will become wealthier.

This is not a conspiracy by any stretch of the imagination. This is one fat slob of a Board member who went to school with a contractor and who can bully the other members of the board by being loud and obnoxious. It's easier to cave in. See, they didn't plot and scheme to take over the neighborhood by modifying their laws. It just fell into place. If you start picking the wrong "dots" to use for filling them in you will get a wrong final product. GIGO

Savant, people like you become the SS because you worry about plots and conspiracies and see danger everywhere. You want to violently oppose that evil and you end up making big barbecue pits for the minorities who have failed to connect the dots. You'll have to! They might be part of the plot!

The government is screwed and is screwy. The big freakin organization which takes our money and wages wars with it is just like any other big company with unlimited funds and the ability to kill thousands of people with the signing of a paper. Charles Manson had the same plan but lacked the resources. Nobody liked his songs. What we have here is an empire in quick decline, accelerated by globalization, which redistributes the "wealth" without regard to the impact of massive numbers of unemployed, underemployed, starving and homeless. In Nature we are taught about the balance of forces. Things tend to balance out, we don't get a world made of T-Rex and a hippo, we get tens of billions of life forms living in various relationships with one another. As in all cases involving Life, things change. Not changing along with it is not a death sentence, although many a Social Darwinist says so. Sometimes what you have is all you need.

Take the concept of money. What is it, how long have we had it, was there ever a time when we didn't. If there was such a time, how did we eat, clothe ourselves or find shelter? We exchanged goods, services and love. Sometimes you feed someone else out of love. No money or sex involved. Since money is an abstract representing a service and marked by a paper or metal chit, or numbers in a computer,( Let's not break it down to 1s and 0s.) we can see that the idea of gaining vast amounts of money, call it wealth, requires that there be vast numbers of people with no money, no wealth. Finite number of dollars and coins cannot be divided infinitely, at some point the pyramid is upside down, and that my friends is unsteady.

So with all the new billionaires and all the legislators being on the take we can expect the uber-rich to want to buy the whole damn country. Personally I think they will have to face China if they want America. Very few people have beaten China in wars of aggression. Now consider this for a moment, even if they are plotting to own it all, what happens when they die? The kind of plot outlined in "agenda 21" type of crap requires a coordination of resources never before seen. It requires either a psychotic personality to push it along, in the way Cheney pushed the new World War. Being not quite right in the head he blew it, he expected to "win easy" in Iraq and then sail into Iran and probably Pakistan. And here we are, bogged down in three countries and no one with the balls to just pull the troops out ASAP.

The Illuminati were all the rage during the Reagan years. His senile old brain did so much harm to the Republic that many people figured it had to be a crazy conspiracy to finish off all our liberties and freedoms, wiping out out civil rights. What it was, was Alzheimers and a president surrounded by Yes Men. In kabuki they are surrounded by Noh men. We should try that, because while Clinton was getting hand jobs in the closet the nation was shedding it's protective skin of regulations. The Bush family probably own most of America now, although i am quite sure it's a corporate situation. Like Hitler Bush had a lot of very sick minds around him, all very wealthy, lots of money and no minds, just lizard brains and testicles. See how well that worked out? Now scan slowly to the right and look at America. Our highways and bridges are falling apart, our electrical grid is stretched to it's limits, our soils, waters and air is polluted and getting much worse. Especially the water, which is pretty much the one thing you need for life, so it makes sense that a psychotic mind would want to destroy it, or actually control it, they never admit to being destructive, they always mean what's best for the little "man", otherwise known as cannon fodder.

See guys... you too Mr. Noir, This "conspiracy", whether you are talking about the Knights Templar, the Rosy Cross, Tea baggers or "the government" all of these terrible assaults on our person, our rights and our lives have been going on for so many thousands of years. It's not that they are immortal, even the Illuminati were never immortal, it's just that people in power always follow the same path and republics always turn into empires, which then become corrupt and incompetent so they collapse into smaller states, sometimes they recombine and sometimes they just sit there, like the Caribbean. All of this could happen without a conspiracy, just like life will emerge from water and earth if you wait long enough. It isn't spontaneous generation, it's just stuff happening. If you don't want to be swept up in these theories, just ask yourself why anybody would have the slightest interest in controlling or following YOU? Most of us peons can continue to do what we do under any kind of dictatorship if we have enough time to adjust. It's the geniuses, the savants who will be picked up and tortured and converted into whatever it is they convert people to, maybe a born again Marxist. That system failed, too.

Hey, Savant, I called you a moron and that was mean. I want to do better than you do at playing with others. How about this: I'm a moron, too. It fact I'm a bozo most of the time. In fact we're all bozos on this bus.

when you start your diatribe with "you are a moron", you can be assured you lost my interest at that point. perhaps you could not figure that out on your own. all I can say is I tried...now I am done with you.

Savant, you are a freaking moron, bottom line. I keep going over the material on "Agenda 21" to find some rational bit of sense to it and the problem is that I have been hearing this crap and drivel for close to 50 years and it still makes little or no sense. That to you is proof i am an idiot. So don't let yourself be upset by the words of an idiot, just skip past everything I say. It's easy, you're a goddam genius, even your name is a testament to that. Just ignore me.

Since the dawn of time men have been afraid of those who lead them, and for good reason. People who feel the need to tell others what to believe and how to believe it are not well in the head, they are damaged goods. You will invariably find a history of familial abuse, learning disabilities and asocial behavior. They argue with people violently if they disagree with them. They even become violent in a physical way, leading eventually to things like the Holocaust and the Rwanda genocide. On a smaller scale you find the Jim Jones crowd and then you get down to the people in purple capes and sneakers flying off to the comet. It's important that when somebody tells you what you must read and what you must avoid that you recognize this controlling attitude is the product of sick minds, not evil minds.

The End of America happened about 100 years ago, if you are referring the democratic republic the Founders envisioned. Or is it? Reading the letters and articles of the founders reveals an almost hostile attitude towards the masses. Obviously slave owners had no regard for the intellect of spiritual standing of their slaves, and so it is now with the average taxpayer. Our owners care little or nothing about us except insofar as we openly agree with them and pay our taxes. Taxation is extortion by a minority group imposed on the majority in order to support their wars of aggression and acquisition. Government is rule of the majority by a minority. In that context the two types, (government and citizen) are different, but from an objective view the two groups are identical in all things except that one has chosen to be subservient to the other.

Imposition of control over a group of people requires a number of things in various combinations. For instance you can control a crowd with tear gas, hundreds of police and shackles, but this does not address the root cause of the confrontation. Usually this is a class problem. The ignorant wealthy classes always try to control the ignorant poor classes. Anyone who is not ignorant is captured, tried and executed by either side for daring to contrast and compare as opposed to follow or lead.

Why would a Christian, Jew or Muslim object to a World Government when their faiths project just such a future for true believers? One of the reason these three religions are always at one another's throats is that each believes the other is trying to impose a World Government on the others, based on their religion. Each religion is a mish-mash up of doubtful history, mad ravings and political theory, with just a smattering of spirituality. Charles Manson used the same concepts and techniques to control his people: we are the chosen few, it's okay to kill the Others, in fact it is important to kill the others if they won't listen and convert.

(Author's note: why do they always have to kill the others, why not ignore them? Why is it important to clear the board of unbelievers?)

World domination theories, one world government, vast global conspiracies and religions are very similar in nature and derive from the same need to explain the world and it's inconsistencies. Religions produce Devils, Tricksters and such to explain why things go wrong. Political religionists produce conspiracies. the bigger the field, the bigger the devils and the broader the conspiracies. A global government would endanger the fascists, the dictators and Popes, so it must be ferreted out and demolished. A problem arises when no such conspiracies exist.

The problem with "connecting the dots" is selecting which dots to connect to which dots. If I may be excused for inserting that of which I have personal knowledge, A friend of mine called me to explain that she needed my advice. It seems that she has been hounded by people staring in her windows at night. Furthermore, her ex-boyfriend had been sneaking into her bedroom while she slept and injecting heroin into her veins, at the ankle. The proof was the fact that he had been a heroin addict, they had broken up, she finds red spots on her ankles and she was exhausted in the morning, as if she were stoned. She had connected the dots, missing only that there were aneurysms in the back of her brain pressing on a part of her brain that seems to control moderation.

Another person looks into the sky and sees a dragon. I see stars. I would like to say there is a dragon there, but in fact, I sincerely only see stars, maybe in the shape of a dragon, if one connects them in a certain order, and ignores the other stars around. But I am being sincere and thoughtful, I just don't see things the same way you do and I suspect it has less to do with my tiny pea brain compared to, say, a true savant, than my background and personal history. We'll just have to see how things turn out. the last umpteen thousand similar conspiracy theories seem to have gone bust, maybe Agenda 21 or it's baby will have better luck.

I think it is appropriate to convey to you what I wrote and conveyed to both Robert Muller (President of the UN University of Peace) and Maurice Strong (president of damn near everything)

Sir:

There is nothing wrong with any of your philosophies per se, but what you fail to seem to recognize is that they are 'yours'. You strengthen your own beliefs by surrounding yourself (via your associations, such as but not limited to the Club of Rome) with others whom you share a bond of commonality.

When an outside individual begins to see how through your various associated NGO's you are raping the world of it's wealth, one cannot help but wonder if you are noble, or pure evil hiding behind noble rhetoric. I don't know the answer, but I suspect you are not re-distributing your wealth--nor living in a hut communing with bugs and furry little rodents. Neither are any of your associates. In other words, you have a noble idea how the rest of us should live, but no willingness to lead the world by example in this endeavor.

You sit on Boards alongside David Rockefeller, whom happens to be chairperson of the World Economic Council and the Environmental Grantmakers Association that awards my taxpayers money to organizations such as yours. I guess collusion is of no consequence to Mother Earth who has no moral yardstick for her children. Yet a moral code can be devised by you and your associates for others to abide?

Despite the glowing rhetoric, the narcissism that lies at it's back seemingly clouds the realization that 'your' beliefs should begin and end within the boundary of 'self'. What you believe is within the providence of your own freedom of choice. Evil seeks to take away other peoples freedom of choice, and in this case predominately by perverting the educational system so as to indoctrinate the youth to 'your' world view. ['your' is meant to be inclusive of the entire group of you]

I would like you to take a look at yourself and to see if your philosophy is benign; (such as Buddha, Christ, Ghandi, etc), whom walked upon the world and spoke of a greater spiritual well of perceptual reality...as opposed to those who foist it upon the world through hidden forms of coercion and propaganda. Hitler started with a philosophy, but the execution of it was a bit tainted, yes? Ask yourself: -- "what kind of man am I really?" You are either benign or malignant, there is no middle ground.

You speak of love, yet accord to no other love. Love is freedom of choice, it has no coercion at it's back, nor does it make any demand.

Gaia Earth paganism is centuries old philosophy, and who knows, you may be right. If you are, this is not something you will be able to ponder after death as the plant that once nourished you yesterday, is in turn nourished BY you tomorrow. There you will eternally rot. God or Mother Earth? Once we die, we will know the answer. What if you are wrong?

(however I do acknowledge that for ONCE I have seen you ask someone for a reference link...THAT is participation).

Well, if you had actually read the substantive links OR for that matter, even my post in its entirety, you would have known what a PPP was because I clearly defined as 'public-private partnerships', and I deliberately threw that out there to PROVE you do not even bother to read what is said. Similarly, the acronym NGO (non-government organization) is pretty well known by most everybody that has a modicum of political awareness; inasmuch we are being taken over by this ruse foisted upon us. So even in context, the letters PPP should have meant something, irrespective of the fact you never bothered to read a word I said.

And no, I am not going to rag on you for the sheer sake of being obnoxious...only to the extent where I make MY point.

#1 "I don't care about your Gaia, your color, your bank account, your car, your boyfriend or girlfriend, your favorite food, or even your political party affiliation. I merely wanted informed and insightful political thoughts shared...not your aspersions, opinions, or life story."

Yes, I get that. You have no positive feelings towards me at all. Not as a person, an intellect or a soul. You see me as dirt under your boot.

#2 No, apparently you do not get it at all, because you still seem to think this is about YOU. I neither like nor dislike you. I deem no one higher nor lower than myself, so again you make an unwarranted judgment call. I DO however take exception to the fact that you have continually mocked other people for their religious views exclaiming the virtues of Gaia and the immaturity of holding a God belief.

#3. I made it quite clear that my discussion here was to address political issues. When I make a statement, I enclose reference links. I relate directly to what is the issue at hand. It does not require of me to delve into my family history, my religion, or really anything at all about me...because it is NOT about "me", whereas seemingly you are turning this into a forum about "you"..

#4. I cannot fathom why it is you think you are contributing to the momentum of the political diatribe when you do not even read the posts in their entirety (evidently), nor respond DIRECTLY to the links, the post itself, or even bother to acknowledge or question the posters point of view. Instead, you ignore totally the individual and what they are saying to forward YOUR story, and often times at the expense of others.

#5. As I have said often, if you wish to discuss the topic at hand, put it out there and discuss.

#6. As typical in most of your posts, it "appears" to be condensending in nature. "Do you know what conciousness is...etc etc"? As a Psychologist and Analyst, I happen to know a bit about the subject, BUT, who cares??? How is my psychological expertise germane to this conversation. If I am writing an article on the psychological differentiation between this or that, then we can go there. I have written and published several such articles...look them up and comment if you want to debate those things...

Noam Chomsky! Well, what a delightful read...kinda like making a pact with the devil himself when it comes to this country...you know, that country you think has gone way beyond the tipping point already. Its people like Chomsky and that drivel that have helped...although, the audience is more to blame than the author themselves. I quoted Chomsky in my latest article. YOu cna have a sneak preview before it is published...

http://recyclewashington.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/the-earth-charter-companion-to...

War Gods, I have been trying to check your story about having to register our houses with the government like our cars and I can't find a thing about it except some laws in Australia. Could you get me a reference so I can read the bill as passed... or as offered up?
I've been waiting for Savant to tear me a new one. My family thinks I should not bother trying to communicate with closed minds, but I just find it really fascinating how people work their logic. I used to study logic and it's history and it's very interesting how social paradigms creep into our thinking. For instance if you had a lot of bad luck lately of course it would have to be the gods messing with you, eg Trickster and to say it was not connected with a mean or spiteful god was illogical, because they do that sort of thing. If I am suffering because my son is in a coma, obviously I am being punished by God for being a Pagan, because Yhwh does that sort of thing. All very logical based on the appropriate paradigm. Sort of like how now we believe that money is wealth or that money actually has intrinsic value, but of course small bits of metal or paper have very little value outside of society's paradigm set.
I noticed in the 60's that everything the paranoid yippies said the government was doing turns out to be true. Now I know that even more of their wild dreams were not dreams at all. But our excursion into Viet Nam was predicated on erroneous information: the Commies are going to take over Asia if we don't stop them here. Absolute bullshit, people are greedy and they want nice cars, so communism is not very welcome in countries where the people see a future for themselves. In a perfect universe they'd want better trolley cars and wider bicycle paths, not commissars and bad toilet paper.
The paradigm that "government" is an actual entity with different goals than people is pretty interesting. See, I view government as a lot of people doing things. At the moment there are tens of thousands of people from here over in Afghanistan killing people who do not know them and for no good reason. None of these killings are called "murder" but of course that is what a human killing another is. They deal with being mass murderers by saying "the government made me do it". When I was a kid my Dad would ask me, "If everybody jumped off the roof, would you do it?" His paradigm for dealing with mass murder was to NOT kill people. He felt it was wrong, unethical and the Army was not amused so they made him a mechanic. Now that was interesting because Dad joined up not just to fight Japs and keep the world free, but to get away from his evil youthful ways: stealing cars. Dad never got caught but he was very good at stealing cars. His view was the cars were just sitting there and he wanted a ride. In India he stole a plane and flew it around. He had wanted to be a pilot but the Army wanted him to be a mechanic, so Dad watched pilots and learned to fly. After Dad was court martialed he was in prison, a bad man in a bad place. Thanks to that dad never was able to find good employment, after all the Army said he was a bad man. They even made him recovered the corpses floating in the bay after the Japs' bombing runs. Years later Dad could be found in the back yard, staring at nothing at shaking all over. yeah they broke him good. Now, Savant, I know you don't like to hear anything personal, no opinions or speculations, but this is a lesson, so just skip the parts you hate. Suppose we look at how bad dad was. He took things and figured out how to steal them, so that's not nice. But he left them near where he had taken them so the owner could find them and the cars were never hurt or vandalized, so was he evil? He also wanted to fly and great skills for a pilot, but the Army wanted him to be a mechanic. So Dad wanted to fly away from the par-boiled corpses floating in the water and they made him swim out and collect the heads and arms. (Savant, this next part is a rhetorical question) Which act was evil, which did the most harm? Taking an airplane, or forcing a man to collect body parts?

If you thought the Army actually harmed more people than Dad you would be in my camp. Here's the connection for you Savant. Dad was a mathematical genius, he could do the calculus in his head. He could learn how to make anything machine work. He taught himself to sew on a machine and make dress patterns from newspapers. We were pretty darn poor and Mom worked so Dad sewed dresses. he worked when he could get it, as a surveyor but when the companies or municipalities found he had been court martialed they fired him, every time. So they let go a man who was able to do just about anything except control himself when drinking. They lost the training, the potential manpower and no doubt some money, but their paradigm with regard to war vets was to hate and dismiss people who were not let go from the military with a less than honorable discharge. This forced us to live in poverty most of our lives. We paid fewer taxes, bought fewer things and did not contribute to society as much as we could have had if, for instance, the kind of discharge you got was considered personal and private. Society loses out when it attempts to control people who do not need to be controlled.

If our incompetent government, run as it is by people who cannot create things and who make their money by talking and signing papers, tried to control the entire population, even with magic microchips, they would fail because the "government" hasn't been able to do very much in the way of advancing society or creating a low-carbon footprint economy, even when it is obvious that their actions or inactions is costly in terms of that money stuff and in human lives. Group intelligence is inversely proportional to the number of people involved. That's why Congress seems to be somewhere in the low moron levels.

Every society which tries extreme and artificial means to control and direct large numbers of people eventually fails and collapses into tribal areas and protected cities. Add this concept to the rising of the oceans, flooding our coasts and forcing millions to move just in North America, then add all the peoples living at or slightly above current sea levels and the actions of a few Americans, even fabulously wealthy Americans with evil intent, pales in comparison. Whatever terrible schemes those people cook up Gaia is about to put the screws to. That is to say the group intelligence which is this planet, unlike the group intelligence in Congress lives to live and can change it's systems to promote Life. Not lives, like little people tossing bombs at one another, but Life. So our population problems are about to trump evil schemes to control our lives.

Can you point to a government, can you touch it, smell it or taste it? It's an idea, a concept, a paradigm and paradigms can change as fast as the climate or water heating in a pot. It exists in your mind and in the minds of others, but notice how every citizen in this great nation has an entirely different idea of what our government actually IS and what it DOES? What is the color of a government? What does it taste like?

One day America will be a legend, maybe even a myth. People will look up at night at the stars and connect the dots to make fabulous images like dragons, hunters and dogs. Absolutely none of those images are real or actually exist outside the mind of the observer, it's just connected dots in our imagination. No matter how many drawings you make of the dragon, it is just a bunch of connected dots.

"Trying to hold a conversation with someone that probably doesn't even know what a PPP is, is like trying to converse with an infant."

"Purchasing power parity (PPP)" "Point-to-Point Protocol" "Public Policy Polling" or "precision plumbing products, inc."

Or any phrase with 3 P's in it. What is your point here? That I have the intellect of an infant because I might not guess which PPP you mean? Wow. Anybody ever accuse you of being a jerk? Because I am leaning that way.

The paradigm you advance is not as complicated as you suggest. Those "dots" you connect are many and varied but in the end you picked them to promote your original idea that YOU were smarter than all those terrible people you fear and hate. So why do you fear them? Why not let them trash the country, break the nation and then scamper off to Brazil or Israel? Are you invested heavily in real estate? Banking? Personally I have no investments because I think profit taking is in the end a dangerous concept which promotes greed and violence. I know the "dots you talk about, the bits and pieces of the trail which leads to the Truth, but it's an old truth, a very old truth. The rich want to control everything so they can get more rich because they think it will make them happy. It doesn't, money becomes just numbers on a page. But Death is interesting. Most fascists seem to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering. Dick Cheney. You can never heal these minds. If you were King of America you would have to kill Dick because he will always want to hurt people and make money doing it.

#2 Again I miss your point. Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any claim of civil, criminal, or political conspiracy. According to Wiki just about any group of people planning together to kill, steal, maim or control are involved in a conspiracy. So the Health Bill was/is a conspiracy as is Agenda 21. People conspiring to do something, almost always violent.

#3 "Pontificate"? I post my thoughts, my experiences, my deliberations and you call me a pontificater! And I thought I was contributing to the debate. I guess you don't read what I say because you disagree with my attitude: I don't agree with you. Savant, seriously dude, I do NOT "thrill" over writing here. I do not like being called an idiot. It bothers me and I go back over my reasoning to see what I did wrong. Then I respond. Besides just agreeing with you, how exactly should I proceed in such a way as to not appear to be pontificating? "talk in a dogmatic and pompous manner". I try to be precise, I try to be concise. I try to write as if the person reading has no access to a dictionary. I guess I failed and I am sorry for that.

"I don't care about your Gaia, your color, your bank account, your car, your boyfriend or girlfriend, your favorite food, or even your political party affiliation. I merely wanted informed and insightful political thoughts shared...not your aspersions, opinions, or life story."
Yes, I get that. You have no positive feelings towards me at all. Not as a person, an intellect or a soul. You see me as dirt under your boot. Got that! Okay, let me find some things to agree with you and then you can correct my syntax and logic, but as a loving father or older brother and not as a angry shrink.

Why exactly do you NOT care about Gaia? The idea that the planet might be knitted together into a large living organism is rather a LARGE idea which has LARGE implications for the importance of whatever we do on the surface. Studying the nature of consciousness is as important as studying political history.

I am white, or at least my tummy is. I drive a Volvo, I'm married, straight and I am in no political party although I do read a bit of Progressive sites. Mostly I read newspapers and news services from around the world. I also study Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Joseph Campbell, Maria Gimbutas, and any other book which deals with humanity. I study human consciousness as well since my son has been in a comatose state for the last 10 years. Did you ever think about where consciousness is? You can remove most of a human brain without impacting consciousness yet we teach that the brain tissue is like a computer generating consciousness. Show me a computer which can work with half a motherboard. Oh I am a retired civil engineering tech, a drafter or CADD tech. I am also a life-long artist, primarily wood fired ceramic sculpture. I already have a blog which is read by maybe 3 people. It's mostly about gardening and consciousness with a lot of comparative religion. So I recognize a zealot when I read one. I was married twice before. I seem to be attracted to crazy people with that ego you denounce pushing me to help the crazies from themselves. It never works. I have no idea why I bother trying to communicate with you. You have no desire to understand my points and spend your response insulting me. That's not a conversation I enjoy.

"Nothing is ever as simple as it appears, nor does anything ever happen without a reason. It is an arduous task to fit all the pieces together and reveal the big picture, but one thing you should be certain of is that there is always a framework of thought that precedes all policy." Did you think of that yourself? No, that was a snarky comment, please forget it. It really isn't all that arduous, you know. I can move along nicely reading bills that get passed, checking out commentary, studying the speeches and looking at who voted how. That's why I figure the US of A is a lost cause, past the tipping point and about to go full tilt into Stupidity.inc. They kinda expect people like you to get all riled up, they have it in their plans.

Just wait, Savant, for the nation to split into it's component parts. A handful of regional councils is all we need to buy and sell goods. The Constitution forbids a standing army so we save trillions there even without breaking up the Federation. I say arrest every CIA agent and Gitmo them all, same for the HSA. But they won't. They will kill a lot of innocent people, like they always do. Any insurrection will be bloody, poorly thought out and most likely be over with in a few weeks. I don't believe any American walking today has the balls to fight the Government*, nor the skill sets to pull it off. Your best shot is to acquire skills needed to grow food and heal bodies and then keep a low profile while the idiots in Washington drive the nation into the rising oceans. Look for high ground.

*government of, by and for the corporations, which are themselves just a group of people doing things.

BTW, there was a woman here at some point by the name of Anna Litengberg(sp) whom disagreed with me vehemently. (and I her)...but she offered intelligent arguments, substantiated those arguments, and brought something to the table. Differing perspectives on a shared topic is fine by me, but in the final analysis in ANY political discussion, by necessity, people are going to have to waffle between fact and conjecture. The problem with interpreting political data is that it always requires inferential analysis. The reasons for this are many-fold, but the most obvious are simply because legislation is drafted in legal language and thus requires such interpretations; and secondly; those interpretations then have to be weighed against a body of empirical evidence that illuminates a political agenda or overall philosophy that has been exhibited over an extended period of time. Nothing is ever as simple as it appears, nor does anything ever happen without a reason. It is an arduous task to fit all the pieces together and reveal the big picture, but one thing you should be certain of is that there is always a framework of thought that precedes all policy.

I am not sure who you are reading when you make this response, but I know it that once again it did not address a single point I brought up, while adding stuff that was never once even said. Again, seemingly you converse with yourself, and in the process have some delusions in regards to others.

#1. I never said Al Gore was the anti-christ, nor ever even implied it...so I wonder what you might be smoking.

#2. You continue to speak of conspiracy theories. Calling Agenda 21 a "conspiracy" is like calling the Health Care Bill a conspiracy. Both are very real documents., hence they are not created within the womb of speculative inference.

#3. You continue to pontificate about you, and what you think, and what you have done, etc etc...while I continue to provide direct links to direct sources which you continue to ignore and continue to fail to comment upon. You bombard me with your experiences and your opinions, neither of which are of the least amount of interest to me. You can discuss the issues at hand and integrate into the conversation, or perhaps just open up a private chat room...enter it twice, and type away to yourself and enjoy the thrill that gives you. As stated, I responded to a political issue that blossomed into other political venues. I don't care about your Gaia, your color, your bank account, your car, your boyfriend or girlfriend, your favorite food, or even your political party affiliation. I merely wanted informed and insightful political thoughts shared...not your aspersions, opinions, or life story. Have something to contribute, provide a substantive link. Want to editorialize and tender a biography, get a blog page and Facebook account.

Well you make interesting points. Sociopath:is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal. So people in power appear outwardly normal, ie they have big houses and lots of money and people suck up to them. The people who are taking up the title of "government" as opposed, I suppose, to the People, seem to enjoy partaking of amoral conduct, eg bombing babies. They further.. as do you... seem to lack a sense of empathy at least towards anyone with a slightly different flavor opinion. For instance you accused me of being a "Liberal" and I am not sure what you mean by that term as it is used by so many people to insult so many kinds of other people. I consider myself to be very conservative. I feel we should conserve our resources, especially intelligent people who work outside the popular edges in order to find new bits of information.

Why do I not fear a government conspiracy to inject us with Chinese made electronics in order to monitor our every move? Have you ever owned a cheap Chinese cell phone? It sucks and fails, like the circuits in our missile launchers. So those chips will be made by the Communist Chinese, yes? OF COURSE! Americans can't make complex tools, hell they've forgotten how to make fire from two kinds of rocks! So the chip is Chinese, the group handling the injections is American. have you ever seen a group of badly paid Americans work on something they don't believe in? I worked for the State for 30+ years and I know that the program will be so badly managed that you have nothing to fear. Some teenager will hack the chip registry and you can be anybody you want to be. American adults are damaged goods, they deserve to be cattle. The future is in our children, those not living in coma wards. See my son is in such a ward since he went through the windshield at 30 mph. He didn't like rules and seat belts. One morning he learned that at 30 mph you don't always die. Now I have spent thousands of hours online studying the health system, the government, human consciousness, and a lot of history. I have no faith in conspiracies because it requires more than one human and all humans are flawed depending on where they grew up. I grew up in the stinking desert so I am ironic, sarcastic and cynical, but I am also a pragmatist and I say the "government" is a loose collection of morons, idiots, and psychopaths. Worry about the people you have insulted online, savant, not the freaking government. It can barely tie it's shoes. Check out the Gulf of Mexico.

But why do you care? Everybody you get a response from is an idiot sitting in front of a computer made in Communist China by people who hate our guts, networked by a system cobbled together by geeks in university, government and mothers' basements, easily hacked and monitored and so is useless to communicate with. If They are listening, You can't win. Start a garden, build a house, design a windplant. If some guys in a suit come looking for "money", give them fresh brown eggs and a watermelon. Why not? When do you expect to become immortal, savant? Next week the elixir will be ready? Nonsense! You cannot save the herd, they are marching up that ramp toward the whirling blades and the more noise you make out there in the meadow the better chance you have of attracting attention of those very devious, almost omnipotent evil bad guys. Do you think because you are "educated" you can reason without emotional baggage? hell, dude, you scream at everybody! geez, calm down. WHAT exactly do you want to "conserve" if indeed you are a conservative. Obviously the Constitution is gone, as are the Bills of Rights. We have no right to privacy, to a living, to a home, to freedom from pain, to choosing who represents us in Washington, as if anyone ever did. We do not have those rights because they have been taken away by very rich men and women, some of whom like to hurt people by proxy, maybe in person. I don't care how smart you are or how many links you provide... I read, I watch, I observe the same things you do and I come to a different conclusion. That does not make me a devil or even wrong. I might see something you missed, but of course that wold mean YOU would have to accept ME as someone who can think outside the box correctly and you seem to like to hold on to that title. Well, fine by me, Savant, you are the rightest man I ever read and I think all your crazy ass ideas that make no freaking sense are in fact the cut of the cloth and we are all swimming in a shit river with no preservers in sight.

Al Gore as the anti-Christ???? All Freaking Gore?? You would have had me if you said it was all Cheney or even Rove but Gore? he's a joke, a caricature of a Democrat. Glenn beck is Evil, he's one of the ones you need to watch. Cheney and Beck have divided up the Western world and now they're playing Risk. Except it's all in their minds because in the end one human has to decide to buy into the story that those meatballs have balls. And brains, but they have money and it is with that money they have always bought ideas. They took a cheap route this time and went right to Mussolini for what to do next. Trouble is, Savant, your fear and anger help their play. They need lots of fear and confusion while they do their thing. Great, let's get online and scream FIRE!! Geez, Louise. What a dork.

Just start doing what men do. Nurture your family. Grow food. Maintain your shelter. And may I suggest, eat your green beans.

"The only true consistency is inconsistency, and the only true inconsistency is inconsistent inconsistency." fred brighton 1957

And yes...I have had enough of foolish diatribe that only casts aspersions, yet has nothing concrete to put forward....and remains unwilling to verify anything so he/she can contribute something of merit...it pisses me off! So does your armchair diagnosis of sociopath. A narcissist is in no position to render such a diagnosis. Thus far, you have offered nothing that does not end or begin with YOU...yet we are discussing politics. In fact, during this entire thread, the only contribution you have made is in regards to "you", neither proving nor disproving anyones claims with any material facts that you have produced that lie outside the providence of "you".

So, as a Clinical Psychologist and Psychoanalyst, I have some empirical evidence that has been habitually displayed by you that tends to characterize you...because I have related with several people here, and those relations are vastly different than the one I have with you...Yet, in ALL your responses, regardless with whom...you are always responding in precisely the same manner...as if YOU were the motor-center of the universe around which all other things flow.

Your points are valid, yet, you still have not confirmed that these things even exist, so until that time you are merely just talking. You do not have to believe me, for "fact" is not a matter of belief. That I am considered an "expert" on Agenda 21 is something you do not know, nor really should care. However, I have spent the last 3 years of my life, countless thousand's of hours, with a team of 600 other individuals (members of my website) that have likewise dedicated countless 1,000's of hours into research as well. If you had bothered to open any of the documents, you would have discovered that all the research is substantiated with direct links to government, government documents, or publications by the ORIGINAL author....there is no "youtube" as research, or wikipedia, or other peoples articles, or WND, or any potential of unrealibility.

So, as I said to you in the past...READ first, opinionate second. And without understanding UNESCO, its inception, their beliefs and philosophies, their Constitution...the people, their influences, etc etc...it is hard to fully understand Agenda 21 or the Earth Charter in a comprehensive fashion. But that too has been laid out in great detail within those 3 articles. What value you may confer upon the FACTS is entirely up to you...but at LEAST know the facts first,

A mind tethered to a post makes a very short journey.