What’s Happening to SAT Scores for Minorities?

Part-time college professors travel around to different schools and doing so does not improve the educational experience. Having teachers travel around to equal out opportunities would first require one to create an accurate scale by which to gauge the quality of the teacher and then decide which students you feel are worthy of said teacher's time. You will never see your idea in the paper because you will never be able to find a school board willing to consciously place "worse" teachers in front of their students.

and how does government discrimination (the same thing that caused these problems) help?

That's why I said that I was cautiously supportive: I don't neccesarily agree that the government should give money to African Americans, but you can't discount that the reason that African Americans are generally {poorer, less educated, name your whichever ill} is that they haven't have a level playing field. So supporting them to make sure that they can get their fair share (what they COULD have achieved if they/their parents/grandparents hadn't been almost literally beaten down) is definitely admirable.

Do I think it's right that a rich African American who has a posh house, went to private school his entire life and has a trust fund should be given extra because of the color of his skin? No.

Do I think it's right that the African American kid who does okay in public, inner city school, and wants to go to college gets a bonus over me with my suburban, nearly carefree life? Yes.

The overwhelming number of African Americans are closer to the second than to the first, and the number of people in general who are in the second situation are disproportionately black.

I'm not saying it's a solution-I'm saying it's the best we have right now, and that stopping it would do greater harm than it's continuation.

Try studying inflation before assuming that the increase in value of the real estate really meant anything in purchasing power.

Actually having houses may not have directly increased purchasing power, that is something I am entirely willing to admit. Even if it doesn't increase purchasing power, mortgage payments are generally equal to or lower than rent payments for similar accommodations, leaving African Americans with less of their overall money to spend.

Besides, once a white family or couple pays off their mortgage...they have something for their efforts. They have a house with lots and lots of value. Which can be resold, inherited, or used as a place to live "for free." (No rent or mortgage payments, a huge bonus.)

Houses aren't necessarily just for "purchasing power" either. They can be used a lines of credit to start a business, or to invest a retirement plan, or pretty much anything you need capital for. Restricting African-Americans so that they can't do these economic activities can be just as painful.

I'll resist the urge to say something snippy, but never did I once use the phrase "purchasing power" in my original response.

Watch out! People may accuse of being Walter Williams....

that's funny.. i had a full ride at Mason and passed it up for Fordham.

I find it funny that when I am in dissent of the neo-cons, I am a leftist loony and when I am against the "leftist ideology" I am an uber neo-con.....

Why do people let such hedgemoney seperate them from the real issues??

My point is the basic fact that regardless of race. we all have the same opportunity, and laws that force an assumed opportunity actually reduce the true opportunity for others based on their race, which is in itself racism...... Just look at the firemen from Connecticut who spent months studying for their exam to get a promotion only to be denied because no "blacks" were able to pass the test, even if one of them was hispanic it didnt matter because none of them were black..... That is "affirmative action"??.....

did he change his skin color too?

First of all stop with trying to compare other struggles with Black and Brown struggles. Even tho those were tuff times, did your grandfather ever have to eat at Black only restaurants or have to go through the back door to sit down. Or was he ever chased by dogs in the street for fighting for equality....or better yet, did he have to be escorted into a ALL White school by the military to achieve a equal education. We can do this all day but the point still remains.....Brown vs. The Board of Education was passed 60 something years ago and the public school system still sucks in America.......

Not all poor and disfranchised people are looking for handouts you ass. You ever try and get a job with a high school diploma.....My mom has worked all her life with a high school degree and the same company for over 20 years but when she got laid off she couldn't find decent work. (especially in a Recession) Mind you she only made $10-$12 a hr for 20years.....how do you over come and succeed with this??? This isn't the old dayz bro.

All I have is my own high school diploma, my great grandfather didnt even have that.....

I did not make the generalizations you are making, never did I say "all" or "every" nor did I specify any type of race. Tell me how many kids need to be escorted to school now? How many people have to eat in a segregated resteraunt now?? Did those people who did do all of that do it so their decendants could get a free ride or special treatment?? Did MLK preach for equality or superiority??

Racism and prejudice is still racism and prejudice regardless of who, what, or how. There is not just two races and there is no race immune to being racist.

Italians are not "white" nor are they "black", my grandmother was french and was disowned for marrying my grandfather because he was not "white".

The problems we face as in part of our public school system are beyond race issues. Look up Harlem Baby College and see how well the children in that program are doing despite their race, location, or public education system.

Today people are beat up and even murdered for being white, yet there is no hate crime label when this happens because it is seen as retribution. Gangs like FSU ride on their anti-racism stance to sell drugs, beat, and murder people while the police and public see them as "heros" for their mantra.

Get past race and look at the bigger picture, right now in todays society EVERYONE has the opportunity.....

oh and my great grandfather had brown skin as his ancestors were enslaved by the moors...... Maybe if he had preferential treatment in his country he would not have had to move to the USA to support his family.....

My point still stands that regardless of his history or where he lived, he had to work to stay alive, there were no handouts for him.

Noone deserves any special treatment because of the color of their skin as they do not deserve to be given less because of the same reason.....

DO FOLKS WITH A DARKER SKIN TONE DESERVE HANDOUTS? NO! BUT DO KIDS THAT GO TO SCHOOL WITH NO COMPUTERS, AND BOOKS FROM THE 80'S HAVE AN EQAUL EDUCATION TO THOSE WITH ARE BORN ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF TOWN?

manuel, that is much different than affirmative action in which I am responding to directly...... the distribution of resources within communities is a whole other dillema in itself...... still I find it hard to believe that there are no options for these schools to get certain funding so they can receive computers..... even still I did not have a computer myself and even failed school projects because I did not have an internet connection, or a ride to a library with one..... sure I could have walked 40 minutes, but i was not motivated enough to do so.....

@ Regjoeschmo: I didn't mean to come off hot headed but from a person of "Color" stand-point...generally Italians were racist towards Blacks (Every mafia movie can vouch for that) and even though they did suffer oppression and extreme poverty when they came over here, the bases of their skin color allowed them to simulate easier into society than COLORED people. Affirmative Action was started because of this........I mean come on bro, in the black community if you were LIGHT skin you had a greater chance of simulating than if you were two shades darker. This is obvious today as we look at entertainment and movies.......fair skin women always shine rather than the darker chocolate people. (i.e. Beyounce and India Irie) Its not by accident, its how our society looks at beauty. CNN did a special the other day on Asians turning to bleaching their skin to appear more white and getting eye surgery to make their eyes appear less "Asian". Over the years Racism and Oppression has in turn made some minorities start to hate themselves and wanting to appear more mainstream.......White America controls what is and what isn't. If this is supposed to be a equal or fair society, ownership and a seat at the table would be great.

Just think JP MORGAN CHASE was founded in 1799.....Slavery was still in place. Free labor for almost 400 years.............Name any black or Hispanic owned banks in the U.S......????

If you base your expectations on italians from mafia movies are you not just as racist as those you claim to be against??

segregation of the immigrants was based on the prejudice they faced as they came in to this country. the issues with the banks go beyond race as it is primarily based on heritage and race is only a by-product. Obama did not get to where he is without bowing to such powers himself......

If banks are so racist, then why do black people use them?? (fececious and rhetorical)

Affirmative action may have been started with good intentions, but are there not laws that impliment punishment for people who discriminate based on race for employment?? Why add more laws that prevent employers and schools basing their acceptance standards on mere ability?? This is only perpetrating a race division rather than diminishing it.

Heres a story for ya: I applied at SEARS for a temp job while I was at school. The same day two friends of mine applied and were interviewed only hours before I was. I walked in and heard the lady doing the interviews describe two people who applied and made a statement about how she would never hire "those people".... She described my friends.. one was black, one was white, I got the job but never showed up in spite of her attitude....... You would never guess the person doing the interviews was black herself and refused to hire a young black man...... Even with affirmative action in place this happened. I am often called "whitey" or "cracker" myself when I am at a concert and wont buy drugs or fake tickets from a black person. I have also been threatened right in front of the Nokia theatre for exposing a group of men for selling fake tickets. They were selling fake tickets and threatened me because "this was [his] city" and I was making him lose money, right in front of three cops who did nothing to him.......

I do not consider myself "white" but am often treated as if I was. Only because of a persons own hatred and fear based on the color of my (and their) skin.....

Racism goes in all directions, I too have seen people be racist towards me. I more feel sorry they feel it is necessary than angry or impeded by their own perceptions.....

Here is a short list of black celebrities you ail to consider when claiming only light skinned people can "make it" in show biz.....

Will Smith
Martin Lawrence
Tyra Banks
Carl Weathers (Apollo from Rocky!)
Samuel jackson
Morgan Freeman
Denzel Washington
Eddie Murphy
Hallie Berry
Bill Cosby
Muhammid Ali
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Mr. T
Satchmo Louis Armstrong
Queen Latifah
Whoopi Goldberg
Johnny Mathis
Tina Turner
Aretha Franklin
Robert Guillame
and please do not forget the ever forgotten:
Funk Brothers "the soul behind soul music"
I could go on.....

Magnitude06...

"Stop comparing other struggles to black and brown struggles."

Did you forget that 6 million jews were massacred about 65 years ago?

Are there struggles somehow less significant than "black and brown" struggles?

That was an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

My man you are a day late on this topic but if I re-call alot of Jews recieved reparrations. And further more the article doesn't talk about Jews, and Italians.........it talks about African Americans.

I don't have anything against Jews but maybe you should ask the Palastines if they feel oppressed and racially targeted in the tiny place called the Gaza strip. They're saying the same thing about Israel....but who cares about them? They're terrist right???? Its not just a white or a black thing....It's a strategic thing thats harder to fight than just "overcome".

I simply here alot of bashing and finger pointing from people that have never walked in our shoes......alot of your commments on here are senseless comparsion between who had it harder. Ridiculous!!

And what the hell does your list prove of AA in entertainment...the simply fact that your ignoring there struggles defeats the point.....and I didn't say banks were racist.....I was giving you an example of what I ment by "Head Start".......within the 400 years we were here during slavery whites were building the future we live in right now. The slave owner still has his wealth passed down through generations.........how is this fair? and How does 100 years erase that? If you think racism doesn't exist your an ass and you need to wake up. Period.....and stop with the stories already.

I am not arguing who has it harder, and I apologize for the late entry into the discussion.

I am picking out a single phrase from one of your previous arguments that I found ill-informed.

Granted, I took it out of context, but you still said it.

I don't know what your sources are on reparations, but the jewish community did not receive reparations of any kind.

Maybe you are thinking of the Japanese that we kept in internment camps. They did actually receive reparations from the American government.

I understand your argument about the oppressed overcoming obstacles and I agree with it, but that is entirely different than saying 'no other struggle can be compared to the on black and brown people faced.'

That is exactly the kind of thing you are arguing against in your response to me.

Let me say that I'm a fairly rational guy that can listen to somebodies point of view on a topic but I felt like this guy was trying to make blacks seem lazy and full of problems and I'm getting tired of that. I just think the comparing lost site of the issue at hand.....My point still remains....Affrimative Action can't be killed until America is balanced...i.e. not just for Blacks (Although the article uses African Americans and Africans) but for other minorities as well. And somebody simply saying "They" are lazy and ignorant just bothers me.

Jews recieved Reparations from West Germany....Sept. 10, 1952. Not saying that this will heal the wonds but it was a start.

If you truly seek balance, then why force situations to be unbalanced based on the very aspect you claim to be fighting against?? Determinations based solely on race are racist, you cannot be for something racist and claim to be against racism..... its a catch 22. There are many factors involved in long term poverty, but the lack of opportunity is not the one we need to address because it simply is just not there......

My brother is an economist and friend of Sen.

Awesome book. I encourage people here to read it.

Like America is now, right? Where even government officials question the citizenship of the first "brown" man in the head office.

So then lead by example. Since when are politicians considered bastions of morality, upon which we should base our own moral compass? Last time I checked, a great deal of them are way more corrupt than the lay person.

You don't think they represent a cross section of society then? Many of them get voted in solely for ideological reasons...Much of what they say and the causes that they champion are based on who voted them in (aside from the money).
This idea that this country is some how post racial is retarded and a bit careless. I simply used the example of a politician as reference (as politicians are high up on the chain).

Of course they represent sizable portions of the society. I never said that the United States was beyond racism. I'm not stupid. That's no reason to jump all over someone for suggesting that we can aspire to more than that. Why should the attitudes of ignorant people bear any significance upon my own perspective?

If you dad ran out and your mother is a crack hoar , you will be too . I have seen 3rd generating prostitutes 13 years old ,baby sister (7) had cigaret burns on her arm . Daddy was a pimp . If you are unusually smart and very healthy , you could get lucky . It would take a miracle . All kids need support . Some have none . You have led a life of privilege . Good for you . Everyone else can stay in the little hell they were born into . Good luck with that , and I hope your sentiment never catches up with you . We are all just one addiction away from it .

"Art", you have small point there. However, there is opportunity, if we are willing to grasp it. We are not all condemned to failure!

yeah, but the problem is that white people thought they were special and treated (and paid) people of african descent like farm animals for a few hundred years and got stupid rich off their work.
You just cant say "OK, everyone's equal now. GO!"
Btw, the Emancipation Proclamation did call for every freed slave to be given 40 acres and a mule. They didn't even get that.

OK, so what's your sollution then?

There is no solution beyond making everyone entirely equal. It's just easy for minorities and radical liberals to scream "Well it wasn't fair for the last 200 years! It should be unfair the other way now!"

It's just a load of bullshit. Liberals can't accept the fact that inner city youth have no motivation or support to take their education seriously because their parents don't give a shit. It is not the responsibility of the US Government to hold everyone's hand and tell them it's going to be alright. But then again, look at our President...

Ares, where is your support for your "fact that their parents don't give a shit"? Sounds more like a baseless statement from an individual who doesn't understand the issue at hand(kind of like the "doctor" who wrote the garbage article). Slavery is not the issue. Institutional racism is the reason behind affirmative action. Look into it, though you probably won't read much about it on the anti-"radical liberal" websites

The facts I'm drawing from are sociological research experiments that prove that inner-city youths receive inadequate motivation from their largely uneducated parents. These trends extend well into the early 20th century, ever since factory industry has left the cities in large quantities. This void left uneducated factory workers stranded in the city with fewer opportunities for employment, because they elected to pursue a skill-less career in industry instead of pursuing higher education. The children of these factory workers are now suffering at the hand of their ignorant parents.

Schools in inner city areas receive inadequate funding because the test scores are so low, as well as property values surrounding the school districts. The reason property values are low AND test scores are low is because there is an extremely high density of uneducated minorities living in these cities . These parents have little interest in their child's education because they just don't know any better. They want their children to succeed but they don't want it bad enough to find out how to make sure their children succeed. There is copious violence in these neighborhoods, most often started from kids whose parents give even less of a shit. This violence threatens the opportunity for education of children whose parents encourage their participation in school. What you end up with is a cycle of poor parents and subsequently ignorant children.

That is where I'm getting my facts from.

The conclusions Ares is drawing can also be proven by looking into the Harlem Baby College, of which the people who were involved in learned basic child development while their children were toddlers and these children are doing quite well......

You didn't happen to hear that on the This American Life program did you? That was an awesome show. Too right though, mate.

Ares, would you mind being more specific by citing specific sociological studies?(As far as I know no sociologist would ever attempt an experiment on such a subject while observational studies/surveys probably occurred). Sociology is my major so I am interested in seeing any studies you can provide which support your claims. Some of the conclusions seem somewhat questionable such as the argument that parental apathy is the result of parents simply not knowing any better. One can "not give a shit" or one can want the best for their children in the context of what they know they can provide. Those are two entirely different concepts. Certain industries leaving an area and leaving a community without any ability to compete in the market is not a problem exclusively endured by minorities: consider the auto industry which has a large number of Caucasian factory workers. For those whose factories closed, there is no other alternative. I've studied enough sociology to know that without specific details I can not fully accept your claims and if you are willing to provide those detail I will be more than happy to discuss the matter further

regjoeschmo, how does Harlem Baby college have anything to do with this? A school which teaches people how to be better parents can have benefits in any community. The Harlem Baby college is most likely intended to make parents aware of the actions and attitudes which can negatively impact their children's future. If you study childhood development there are many actions which are more likely to be made by parents working multiple jobs, or those who are stressed by not having enough money to put food on the table, which can later lead to rebelliousness,detachment,etc. The "parents don't give a shit" remains a completely ignorant statement

If it's your wish to make this an academic debate, you're taking the matter beyond internet forum conversation. This is something you should be discussing with your professors.

Note: The term "experiment" was used in lay terms. It is not my intention to use sociological jargon when typical diction will suffice.

Here are two articles that discuss the points which I am making:

"The political and economic forces shaping concentrated poverty"
- W.J. Wilson
Political Science Quarterly. Winter 2008/2009

"The Code of the Streets"
Elijah Anderson
The Atlantic Monthly. May 1994
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/race/streets.htm

Enjoy.

Ares, your second source pretty much shredded every single argument you made. I'm halfway through your first source and things are not looking too good for your points. You read your sources right?

I'd love to see what steps your taking to draw your conclusions. My points are irrefutable. Bad parenting and poor education are indisputably connected. I suppose that's the beauty of loose science like sociology, that we can draw our own conclusions from the same data sets.

What conclusions are you seeing, explicitly, from my previous statements that are not in accord with your views?

Ares, your overall conclusion appears to be that minorities in the inner city are both uneducated and socially immobile by choice. Both articles you offer to attempt to support your statements acknowledge a history of institutional racism which is the basis for my viewpoint. According to your articles actions by lenders, the government, community activists, etc. have restricted the ability for many minorities to escape the inner city by finding jobs which pay a living wage and/or a more affluent neighborhood which would let them move in. Violence in the city, as described by your second article is the result of a feeling of isolation, low self-esteem due to paranoia about how one's ethnicity is viewed by the mainstream media, hopelessness due to generation after generation of one's family remaining poor, etc. Attempting to sum things up as "they don't give a shit", "they don't know any better", and/or the parents just need to try harder fails to recognize the myriad of variables which define the cause and effect of long term poverty. Bad parenting is one cause of reduced motivation in school and lower grades, however as your second article stated the "street" can directly impact the future of a student from a "decent" home. Affirmative action was created in order to counter the problems created by a system which not too long kept people segregated in way would drove down the quality of living for minorities. Viewing the issue from a historical standpoint, which your first article does, allows one to realize that without affirmative action many of the racist people in power(a vast majority of the civil rights movement is still alive) would deny access for minorities(women included) to schools, jobs, neighborhoods, businesses etc. Equal status under the law does not always translate into equal treatment. On a side note, I believe that affirmative action has also been utilized as a means to condition people into feeling more comfortable with groups other than their own. The majority of the people who call for an end to affirmative action are seeing the world through the rose colored glasses the policy created.

Then we simply have two polar views of the same issue. I'm obviously taking the more conservative stance here.

You summarized my conclusions by saying that I believe that inner city minorities are "uneducated and socially immobile by choice." You'd better believe it! This is the United States of America. The land of opportunity. I don't care if your brothers are all in gangs and your father ran out on you, and your mother is a crack whore. You can escape it.

I don't care that the Code of the Streets encourages you to behave a certain way in order to avoid violent retribution. Leave the inner city. There is nothing holding you there. Redlining no long takes place (at least not on the level that it once did), and even removing that from consideration, the military does not discriminate in their recruitment. There are infinite ways to escape the pit of the inner city, but these people are not taking advantage of it. It is far too much easier to say that they are disadvantaged (one of the biggest bullshit words that is ALL too prevalent in those articles) and consequently are incapable or restricted in their vertical mobility. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

To your note about equal status. I believe in disaggregation. There are no longer classes, we are all afforded the same opportunities. It's called a social continuum. Here's my theory: there are just enough minorities left in these inner cities that lived through REAL racism and discrimination. These people are still largely uneducated, and consequently hold prejudice to all white people, largely distrust the government, and fear if not resent the police or any other structured authority figure. These feelings are rational, but unfortunately fallacious.

I do not dismiss your argument as invalid, but I would not say it is sound in nature.

All things aside, it's truly a pleasure discussing stuff like this on this website with somebody who is actually taking a logical stance and communicating their thoughts academically in nature. Bravo, sir or madam.

@ares: Wow....in your own words.

"You summarized my conclusions by saying that I believe that inner city minorities are "uneducated and socially immobile by choice." You'd better believe it! This is the United States of America. The land of opportunity. I don't care if your brothers are all in gangs and your father ran out on you, and your mother is a crack whore. You can escape it."

You wonder why majority of liberals and free thinking people hate conservatives.....mainly because your out of touch with reality. Its easy to say you can do something when the shoe has never been worn. I'm done with this simple minded B.S.

I'm sorry, I must have missed your responses where you actually contributed to the discussion earlier. How adorably pretentious of you, you are "done with this simple minded BS."

You curse republicans for thinking people should help themselves. That's my fundamental issue with hardline liberalism. You apparently refuse to believe that people in difficult situations are capable of rising above adversity without you holding their fucking hand the whole way.

Simple minded BS indeed...

Actually if one did research the reasons and current results of the Harlem Baby College, it would become extremely relevant. I did hear the podcast from "This American Life" concerning it, and it was not too long after I helped my friend do a research paper for his Child development class. Of course he led the way as it was his project, but I cannot afford college so he let me join in the research portion.....

Point made by this program is that these children involved in it are all acheiving awesome academic success regardless of their school district, race, or location. Amazing what a difference an educated and involved parent makes!!! Too bad these classes are not readily avalable during pre-natal care.....

Point is, affirmative action is just saying 'oh, you're a person of color, you may not be able to make it in college like the white middle class kid who sits next to you...so let's take your basic apperance and let you slide right in, just so everything looks 'normal' to our standards' if they're were no such thing as racism, we'd all be given equal chances at succeeding/failing on our own, without the help of the race card.
maybe one day people can open their eyes.

I agree my friend......Getting reid of Affrimative Action won't solve anything BUT revamping it could help to at least provide "REAL" teaching and "REAL" answers to getting out of poverty and empowering yourself. (Just sending some at risk kids to college isn't the answer, I'm a witness) Throwing money at it isn't the answer but money can't be eliminated until real work is done to educate the less fortunate. (Tuff Task, No Resources, Failing Schools) It might not be a race thing to a certain degree but with Blacks and Hispanics making up a large part of improvised people in the U.S. a new plan needs to be formulated to help raise these groups into ownership.

"The solution is to replace these exploiters of the poor with political leaders who genuinely care about individuals and their freedom." Tell us something we don't already NO.....the politicians come to our Church on Election day for our vote and when the smoke clears we never hear from them again.

By the way Affirmative Action didn't start the Recession.....Politics and WAR did. Lets focus on the OBVIOUS things effecting our lives.