Hugo Chavez: Thug

Peterz,

At this point, I think we will have to agree to disagree on a few points. While I respect Mr. Chomsky, I certainly don't consider him to be "the most renowned critic of U.S. foreign policy." That is a subjective distinction, and I can think of a dozen people just off the top of my head whom I believe have greater EXPERTISE on U.S. foreign policy than Mr. Chomsky -- before we even get to a discussion of the quality of his analysis. I also have a different perspective on Human Rights Watch. My best friend was an attorney for the organization for about 8 years. It has its weaknesses, of course (what organization doesn't?). But I cited their letter as an EXAMPLE of the evidence of torture coming out of Venezuela, not as the ONLY source of such information.

I am not arguing -- at all -- that there have not been improvements in Venezuelan society. I am simply highly disatisfied with what appears to me to be the suggestion that Chavez' human rights violations are simply part of the price that must be paid for those improvements. I am simply not persuaded that the improvements could not occur WITHOUT the violations. I would also submit that the breathtaking increase in oil prices -- and thus oil revenues -- during that critical period in Chavez' administration/rule made the improvements a good deal easier. Of course, I also understand that the poor would not have seen ANY benefit from those increased revenues if some political elements in Venezuela had their way.

Lastly, I would simply reiterate that I am not buying into the mainstream media depiction of Chavez that you describe. But neither am I discarding ANY of the sources that appear to me to be reputable and objective. While I am sure I am capable of gullibility, I have had to penetrate so many lies over the course of my career that a healthy skepticism is pretty much second nature by now.

I am interested to see where Chavez goes from here. The next six months should be very interesting.

I appreciate the report. I would suggest to you that what happened was obviously wrong. However, I would also suggest to you that instances of abuse by officer, though significant do not necessarily connotate government policy (in the same way that police abuses in the States doesn't necessarily mean that it is synonomous with government policy).
What I would suggest to you is a better indicator is if you put the Chavez gov't in it's historical context comparing it to human rights abuses before it or during the short lived coup (that was supported by the US).
Though HRW is also usually a good source of information it has been criticized by reknown scholars such as Noam Chomsky (the most reknown US foreign policy critic) and Greg Grandin (professor and person involved in the truth and reconciliation committee for Guatemala as well as Gregory Wilpert, (professor who has written a number of books on Venezuela). The criticism had over a hundred professional signatories.
Their is a correspondance that can be followed through venezuelanalysis.com which is here:

HRW report:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/09/18/decade-under-ch-vez

Scholars respond to the HRW report:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4051

HRW responds:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4105

Scholars respond:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4051

Again my point is not that their isn't problems that happen in venezuela, but the trajectory of change in venezuela is actually the opposite of what we find presented in the media. If we assume that everything bad is representative of the government and do not see how structures are changing, and if we aren't aware of the many ways in which venezuela is becoming more participatory we can allow the media and the us government to mislead us.

i JUST GOT THIS IN MYMAIL.....

Yo, Solarlife!

UrbanGypsy has replied to your comment on Current.com:

"UrbanGypsy said:

I hate when people post videos and I can't turn off the sound. Especially when they don't pertain to the article. Don't force others to listen to this. I'm not interested."
_______________________________________________

I agree, I don't like it either.
I am using Google Chrome, by linking the current article, the video shows automatically up with autoplay, I would prefer autoplay off, also for my own videos, they delay site build up.

So thanks to Miami getting up 5:30 in the morning

Solar,

Of course you don't need a permit to protest the war. You do, however, need to have a permit in order have large gatherings of people in some locations. There are literally millions of locations in the United States where you can protest the government without a permit -- I am sitting in one of those locations right now (my kitchen). But if you want to gather 500, 1,000, 5,000 people in one of the prime protest locations (usually outside a government building or in a city park), you need to get a permit.

The Courts have upheld this requirement on the grounds of public safety. The public has a legitimate interest in seeing that the circumstances surrounding a protest are not such that violence and/or destruction of property are a likely outcome. For example a request for a permit by the white supremecists to hold a rally in a city park on the same day as a Black Panther reunion is scheduled in the same location might properly be denied unless the rally is moved at least one day earlier or later.

In fact, having been involved in the process myself a few times, I can tell you that I am often quite insistent that the permit be brought to the attention of the local police. I WANT at least a bit of a police presence around my protest to intervene if a "certain element" shows up to stange a counterprotest. I don't want my people getting hurt, and I sure as heck don't want my cause to get the terrible PR that would come if one of my people hurt someone else or damaged their property.

But I and a half-dozen of my friends can hang placards over our shoulders and wander all over town protesting some governmental action or policy -- without a permit.

Well UrbanGypsy
to protest against war you think you need a permit ?

It is a citizens first duty, to have his say, look to the constitution.President Obama thinks about Afghanistan, 9 years useless war, healthcare first?

Are we, taking care for America,
ready to reconstruct America, yes we are,
but not for ever.

Or you want to recreate a new Warzone in front of
your housedoor.? I think the economic downturn
of the world by US driven sub-prime scams with
almost no "Money-Cleanwashers" in Jail is a joke.
. Here you see the Problem of USA Today
thanks for dialog in a Multi polar World
Think 2050, 10bn people on the planet

Social skills, that's Miami, all together
have a nice beach day Urbangipsy

@ Solarlife

What's your point? Are you arguing that just because its done here in the US that its fine that its done in Venezuela? Its not right anywhere.

Furthermore, I doubt that the American protestors you are showing were arrested for "inciting civil war" like the ones in Venezuela were.

I would understand if they were arrested for protesting without a permit to organize or if they were actually incting violence by throwing rocks or destorying private property. But that was not the case in Venezuela.

In the case of the American protestors they had no permits to protest in the area where they were at. And despite warnings by the police, they refused to listen.

The two examples are very different.

And to answer the question in the picture- In China you get arrested because you HAVE NO RIGHT to protest in the first place. If you get arrested here its for a different reason.

Peterz

Re: civility. I too appreciate this kind of discussion and debate and greatly prefer it to nonsensical name-calling or the "verbal shoving matches" that occur so often on this site and are so tedious.

I have no desire to be unfair to Mr. Chavez. My opinion of him has frankly developed slowly and is the result of reading many pieces about him in American and British newspapers and magazines that enjoy a fair reputation for objectivity. Therefore I doubt my opinion would take a 180 degree turn -- but I am always open to additional information from reputable and objective sources.

Former detainees told Human Rights Watch that they were beaten during and after their arrests with nightsticks, with the flat side of sabres, and with helmets, gunstocks, and other articles. These beatings often continued as they were being transported in National Guard vehicles. Two detainees stated that their captors hurled tear gas bombs into a closed vehicle in which they had just been seated, causing extreme distress, near suffocation, and panic, while three described how the powder from tear gas canisters was sprinkled on their faces and eyes, causing burns and skin irritation. Three stated that they were shocked with electric batons while in custody and defenseless.
The repeated reports of tear gas powder being sprinkled on the faces and bodies of individuals in custody, as well as the release of tear gas and pepper spray in vehicles crammed with prisoners, are particularly disturbing. Gas used in confined spaces is more concentrated and lasting in its effects than when used in the open. It could cause individuals who are incapacitated or unable to move to suffocate. It is also potentially fatal to those with lung or heart ailments. Direct contact with tear gas powder can cause blistering skin burns, eye injury, and lasting respiratory effects. There should be a full investigation into the alleged abuse of chemical riot control agents and, if the reports are confirmed, strict orders should be issued to prevent a recurrence of this practice in the future.
Letter continues on like this at some length, but you get the picture...

Peterz

From Human Rights Watch:

Washington, D.C., April 9, 2004
President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías
President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
Palacio de Miraflores
Caracas – VENEZUELA
Fax: 58212 806 3221
Dear President Chávez:

Printer Friendly Version
Related Material

More Information on Human Rights in Venezuela
Country Page

Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors
Press Release, March 5, 2004
Free Email Newsletter

Contribute to Human Rights Watch

I am writing to express Human Rights Watch’s deep concern about credible reports we have received that National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people who were detained during the recent protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities. Such cases were not unusual or exceptional. The abuses allegedly committed were widespread and appeared to enjoy official approval at some level of command in the forces responsible for them.
On March 14, during your ‘Alo Presidente’ address from the Burros Island, you denied that government security forces committed human rights violations during the protests and insisted that the rights of all detainees in Venezuela are respected. Indeed, you challenged those who had complained about human rights abuse to present you with the names of victims, and you declared your uncompromising commitment to promoting human rights and bringing human rights abusers to justice. In the spirit of that commitment, we respectfully urge you to ensure that investigations into these alleged abuses are impartial and thorough, and that the parties responsible for human rights abuses are prosecuted.
Human Rights Watch does not take sides in the current political conflict in Venezuela. Our commitment is solely to the protection of fundamental human rights enshrined in international treaties such as the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other, Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the American Convention on Human Rights, which categorically prohibit torture under any circumstances. As a party to both of these treaties, Venezuela has an obligation not only to prevent violations, but also to conduct thorough and impartial investigations, and to prosecute those found responsible for committing them.
Over the past several weeks, Human Rights Watch has collected testimony regarding alleged ill-treatment and torture that took place from February 27 until March 5. The cases described below are based on Human Rights Watch’s interviews with young people who were detained during the protests and, in one case, with a detainee’s parents. Venezuelan nongovernmental human rights groups have also documented similar abuses, as have press accounts based on interviews with former detainees. Altogether, the available information suggests a disturbing pattern of conduct that clearly violates international law enforcement standards.

CZtheDay

Their is also no evidence of torture that you keep mentioning either in this article or elsewhere. So I'm not sure where that statement is coming from.

People from developed countries find it easier to talk about Human Rights and taking some moral high ground against other countries, but it is in my opinion that developing countries NEED to prioritize to actually develop. And this entails silencing, sacrificing and, yes, even rewarding certain sectors of the economy.

The Philippines have been practicing democracy since America gave it independence on July 4, 1946 and it has since slipped into a perpetual limbo. None of the promised transparency, better governance, etc. actually came into reality. And Filipinos has been practicing democracy for close to 80 years now yet have only seen their country lag farther behind her neighbors. And I'd actually blame this on democracy -- there's no continuing policy since elected officials would always rather start something new; and there's no long term planning because people find it useless to do so in the bureaucracy.

The press in the Philippines too are too noisy, split amongst political factions each shouting their own version of stories. There's a lot of noise from the political spectrum that NOTHING is actually done.

Judging from the way things went from my home country, I'd say Venezuelans are probably suffering from the same thing. If the leadership wants real development, then a lot of silencing will have to be done to prepare themselves. China did it; Singapore, Japan and a host of other countries did it as well at some point.

I would agree that jailing non-violent protestors is criminal. What neither of us are in a place to say is whether they were violent or not.

A site run by the person released supported the military coup and called for action to bring down the government. The Venezuelan government had suggested the person was a recipient of funds from the US which is not a big step.

Eva Gollinger has repeatedly through the freedom of information act got documents released documenting support of opposition movements.

Again we have two perceptions on the protests.

Peterz,

That is all very impressive. Every American President during my lifetime -- including the younger Bush -- could list the 100 most significant achievements of his administration, and it would sound just as impressive. Truly. However, I believe that reasonable people could gather and come up with a common yardstick that measures conduct that is simply unacceptable. I would submit that Imprisoning non-violent protesters and torturing them is a practice that any reasonable person would include on that yardstick.

I am not saying that Chavez ranks among the monsters that ruled countries like Germany, Italy, the Soviet Union, or China at various times in the last century. I am not even comparing him to regimes like the one governing Burma (Myanmar) or the Sudan today. But people are suffering. His means do not justify his ends.

CZ,

A very fine post. Thank you.

Peterz - I think only time will tell the quality of the legacy Chavez will leave, and I believe the measuring stick of that legacy will be the permanence of that which he has left behind. To date I would argue he has done nothing which is of a permanent nature; everything has the appearance of being temporary and all about image.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jan/12/franciscorodriguezonchavez

NeoCongo,

If I may be so bold, that was one of the finest posts I have ever seen above your by-line (and that standard was already impressive). I think you have approached the issue with great balance and nuance -- exceptionally persuasive.

current89,

Also a superior post (admittedly this is MY estimation...before allowing yourself to feel flattered, consider the source of this praise...) -- you show great depth of understanding and feeling...you are a very wise young man...stay healthy, we are going to need you...

American hypocrisy, tell the world was is wrong.

US must solve now it's own problems, why handcuffing protesters against war ?

Replace the name Chavez by Bush amazing result.
Guys South-America is a different place .........

"necesita la mujere" hombres, no US like Seinfield
logic involved. thanks for discussion, great...

When will Columbia be the home base for a next target undercover war in the name of drug barons CIA guided against whom ?

Also read http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/report-examines-econ...

* The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.

* Most of this growth has been in the non-oil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector.

* During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and do not take into account increased access to health care or education.

* Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.

* There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999-2000 to 2007-2008.

* Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.

* Real (inflation-adjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.

...it is remiss to talk about his tendency towards drawing attention to himself and moving at time unilaterally without contrasting it with the way he is developing participatory society in venezuela...
I know the media loves to criticize venezuela, but I encourage you to read another perspective which doesn't deny criticism, but also recognizes ways in which venezuela is becoming more democratic, community councils, cooperatives, public referendums, etc.

Please read the article entitle "Which Way Venezuela" by Michael Albert for a look at that.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3670
(it was originally posted a zmag/znet)

It would be remiss to assume that helping the poor in his country and being a totalitarian megalomaniac are mutually exclusive. He did very much help the poor. It was his schtick. And he is now a megalomaniac.

There is significant evidence, not proof, that the US did try to assassinate Chavez at least once. And it appears his ego blossomed soon after, as if his egomania was his defense against his justified paranoia (somebody tried to assassinate him after all.)

I'm certainly not defending him. He is a tyrant. It is however, amazing how all of these tyrants spring up on top of all our oil. Little is as black and white as the CIA and hawkish element of our government would like us to believe. Two things are undeniable. Blowback is a bitch, and we cannot develop alternatives to oil quickly enough.

First off it might be noteworthy to recognize that the protest was violent. Secondly it might be noteworthy that these groups were funded by the US. Finally the person arrested has actively supported the coup and violence against the government. Of course all of this was unimportant to NPR and the person who posted this trash article.

Below is quoted from
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4842

Last month, right-wing student groups began a series of protests and hunger strikes that were sparked by the arrest and detention of Julio Rivas, the coordinator and founder of Juventud Activa de Venezuela Unida - United Active Youth of Venezuela (JAVU) on September 7, in relation to a violent opposition protest against Venezuela's new Education Law in Caracas on August 22.

The government also says that JAVU is the recipient of substantial funds from U.S. government affiliated organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the International Republican Institute (IRI), and the US Agency for International Development (USAID), with the aim of interfering in Venezuela's internal affairs.

Statements on the group's blog site have included calls for bringing down the Chavez government and a communiqué supporting the June 28 military coup in Honduras. However, shortly after Rivas' arrest, JAVU administrators closed down their own site.

Although Rivas was released, opposition student groups and political parties, including Democratic Action (AD), A New Era (UNT), and Justice First (PJ) said on Saturday that they were continuing to protest for ‘all the other political prisoners' in Venezuela.

Among others, Venezuelan opposition groups claim that former metropolitan police officers Iván Simonovis, Henry Vivas and Lázaro Forero and six others, convicted of homicide for shooting demonstrators during the April 2002 military coup, are "political prisoners."

Their is another side to every story,,, to bad we never get it in the US.

Chavez is nothing more than a modern-day Peronista.

Oh, absolutely! If the US engages in wrongful conduct (like jailing people who violate our drug laws) that should completely excuse Chavez from any wrongdoing. What was I thinking?

I have seen this argument 1,000 times -- Chavez should be given a pass because the U.S. are bad guys. Tell that to Chavez' innocent victims. I am sure they will be impressed...

half of the people in our jails dont agree with current cannabis laws................modern day slavery ! whats the difference ?

I won't pretend that the U.S. does not engage in shady practices, but the assassination of a foreign leader is not only a federal crime, it would be an impeachable offense. I think that the odds that we are currently trying to assassinate Hugo Chavez are EXTREMELY small.

Meanwhile, he is torturing people in his prisons for nothing more than disagreeing with him.

I think Hugo has become paranoid. Not without reason. We have been trying to kill him for years.

I am not sure just how high the mountain of evidence has to become with regard to Chavez' totalitarian meglomania before intelligent people will stop defending him with the pathetic "he made life better for poor people." Well yippee.