Israeli-Palestinian clashes raise tension in Jerusalem

wich is exactly the point of my post, the claim to israel is not from the torah but global community standards.the fact that the arguing parties are jewish or muslum is irrelevent to reaching a conclusion. relying on the facts of history dictate who has soviergnty

It is only the ultra Orthodox Haredim who regard the temple Mount as a forbidden zone....and yes there is a sign at the entrance stating this from the Chief Rabbi. The Haredim believe that the Third temple will be rebuilt through God's will and following the coming of the Messiah, and not through secular military force. These guys also refuse to do military service and don't pay taxes. They do not recognise the Jewish state but live there and enjoy the liberty and security it offers, not to mention the blessing of having access to the Western Wall. I recently saw posters in the Haredim district of Meir Shearem saying 'Zionists and their collaborators out'.
There are many non-Orthodox Jews who are religious and who support the idea of reclaiming through force or other methods and liberating the Temple Mpunt from Arab Occupation and rebuilding the Temple.

http://www.templemount.org/tempprep.html

Personally, I have no problem visiting the Mount and praying there.

Ladybug,

You think this debate is pathetic? Not everybody enjoys the luxury of having a secure place to live.

Multiple posts should also have explained to you that many claims to this land having nothing to do with the "book" you are referring to.

And if no land belongs to anybody, do you mind if come and setup shop in your (I mean "our") front yard?

No land belongs to anybody,and for people to say it's in a book that the land BELONGS to anybody is F ed Up.

the claim to the land of israel is secular. it happens to be the jews in questiion. had it been another group they would be the rightfull government.56 other arab nations officially formed less nobley, with no complaint from the jews. no jewish organization doesnt respect the international standards the way the palastinians do. instead of terror attacks they protest at the un.instead of calling for do overs they adhere to cease fires.
it is the basic diplomacy that israel recognizes and hamas does not that makes israel a recognized govt and hamas a terror organization

You guys are pathetic fighting for words in a book. It's only a fucking book.Religion sucks and I really see it here.

a lil too hot massanova we didnt respond well in my case cuz i have a job and a wife to tend to before this.
the beauty is that despite israel being a jewish state it is secular in its law enforcement. it doesnt matter what the talmud says because israel is not governed by it. jews are aloud to visit the temple mount including the dome of the rock, just cant pray there (as to not offend the muslums).
there are many rabbis (usualy very outspoken) who are anti zionist who use the talmud to show that god has cast us from israel to live among the nations so we do not belong in israel.
its a religious argument that has nothing to do with the policies of the state of israel.

Massanova,

What is the "religious fairy tale" you refer to? That Jews have lived in Israel before 1948? Show me a source that says Jews did not live in Israel.

What does the symbol in your icon represent?

What? No comments from freecrack, bielski, markbt116 annd the rest of the gang on what the rabbi said?

Oh that's right I forgot, most Jews are secular and don't believe in the Talmud or any of that other religious nonsense, yet they still believe that they have a claim to the land based on religious fairy tales.

Seems like a rather obvious conflict of interest of sorts no?

"According to halacha (Jewish religious law), it is forbidden to ascend to Temple Mount," Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv is quoted by Israel Radio as telling President Shimon Peres. "I've said this in the past, and I am once again repeating this statement that Jews are forbidden to go up to the site."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1119724.html#

Facts are stubborn things, indeed. For one thing, so-called "East Jerusalem" is not a separate city -- it is the portion of Jerusalem that was illegally seized by Jordan in 1948. (Following which, of course, the Jordanians proceeded to destroy synagogues and use Jewish tombstones for their urinals.)

The "Occupied Palestinian Territories" are neither "occupied" nor "Palestinian." These territories are the heart of the Jewish homeland where Jews lived for centuries, and which were again illegally seized by Jordan in 1948. (After which, all Jews were expelled.) The only "occupiers" were the Jordanians (that is, the citizens of the Arab state comprising 83% of Mandatory Palestine).

in 1948 israel created an independant state by fighting off the british who were in power at the time(not palastinians). when a new state was being established the un offered the un partition plan making two states but the arab league refused.
had they accepted thier would be a jewish state a palastinian state and an independant jerusalem.
instead the palastinians chose to align themselves with syria,moracco,sudan,egypt,jordan,lebanon,yemen, and saudi arabia in an arab war against the jews.they (in this war)lost alot of land, as the terms of the cease fire signed on behalf of the arab nations.not stolen agreed upon. just as in 1948 in 1967 egypt,syria,lebanon and jordantook another swing at the jews in what is now known as the six day war again aquiring land as a result.
the palastinians were used as pawns by other arab nations, had the palastinians once sided with israel this conflict would be a cold war instead of an active one.
did israel take palastinian land definitely
but was it theft no

massanova,

Are you claiming that israelis are not under routine attack and violent provocation? (did you read the article above these posts???)

Are you claiming Arab leaders do not deny the existence of the holocaust?

The excuse of claiming to constantly be under attack seems to be a good excuse for the Israeli gov't to kill people and take their land for Jewish-only settlements.

Massanova,

you say "Terrorism is what you get when you kill people and try and steal their land." That is by definition justification.

In a vacuum, I do not agree with Israeli settlements. However we are not in a vacuum. We are In a world where Israelis are under constant verbal and physical attack, where Arab leaders openly declare Israel should be wiped off the map and Jews pushed into the sea. Nothing will satisfy Arabs other than the demise of Jews. I do not believe the settlements are contributing any more or less than Jews being in any part of Israel. Israelis would glady give up the settlements in return for peace, but they know it will serve no purpose.

Nope I'm not justifying it, but when you kill people and steal their land for Jewish only settlements, you can expect people to want to defend themselves and react in an extreme manner.

You must agree with the Israeli government's policy of stealing Palestinian land for Jewish only settlements right?

Massanova,

So you are openly admitting you believe palestinian terrorism is a just and purposeful way to retaliate against what they perceive to be unjust?

Can you explain how mindless violence aimed at Israeli civilians is ok, but Israeli defense of their home is not?

I'm glad you have finally shown your true colors.

Terrorism is what you get when you kill people and try and steal their land.

I'm against your lies

massanova,

Again, you are proving Israelis are resorting to peaceful methods. So what are you against exactly?

What is your agenda?

Stay on topic. We are talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict not your campaign to get America murder Iranians.

From Jewish blogger Richard Silverstein:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-medi...

**********

"A reader of my blog has received the following email which documents both the efforts and the agency that originated them. The solicitation to become a pro-Israel "media volunteer" also includes a list of media links which the ministry would like addressed by pro-Israel comments:

Dear friends,

We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it's a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.

I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you're up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets.

If you wish to participate, please respond to this email."

Yea massanova you have to admit that Those Isralies who cleverly staged "ALL" of those riots and made it look like the Iranians Bullies were picking on the Green Party,,,and the Isrealies must have a new army on the web faking the story.....Wow their good!

Massanova,

"Army" of disinformation agents? Your link states "so far 5 (REPEAT: FIVE)" volunteers have been recruited.

And if there were many more volunteers combating antisemitic and anti Israeli rhetoric, your objection is.....what? Would you prefer the Arab technique of strapping dynamite to your chest and sneaking into a night club or public bus?

Israelis and Jews promote peaceful methods of combating the people that seek to destroy them. Can you provide a link to a significant similar Arab/Muslim counterpart?

Your link only serves the point you oppose...thanks for putting it up.

Actually it is Israel who has the army of disinformation agents on the internet. Israel's real war is the war of opinion.

Since the mainstream media and advertisers are either Zionist owned or influenced, they already have that sewn up.

To keep that money flowing from US taxpayers to subsidize Israeli settlements as well as provide their weapons of mass destruction like WHITE PHOSPHOROUS and the overall well being of the Jewish state, Israel must win the war of public opinion and concensus on the internet.

This is why they have an army of bloggers to help out, and they are everywhere spouting their poisonous disinformation like to save Iran we need to bomb it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html

Israel recruits 'army of bloggers' to combat anti-Zionist Web sites

SO many assholes here on current it is unbelievable. So many with opinions stated without fact.

Philistine,

Your argument points out that Jews are the oldest existent civiliation with any claim to Jerusalem and Israel. Agreed. You point out that Jews were forcibly expelled. Agreed. Why are the lives of people who lived long ago less valuable than the lives of people who live today. Jews had their homes taken from them. That home is Israel.

You completely ignore any crimes the Arabs of every country routinely commit against Jews. In fact, other Arab nations encourage the existence of Israel by making living in their countries unbearable for Jews.

I don't disagree with your quote by Nahum Goldman. Can we get an Arab counterpart willing to recognize the same thing? Why do so many resort to and promote viscious murder? As long as their is not peace, there clearly has not been enough effort to achieve peace. We need Arab leaders and thinkers to acknoledge this also. Instead they seem to believe as long as there is not peace, there must not have been enough of an effort to wipe out Jews. This is evidenced by cash rewards for families of suicide bombers and antisemitic comments and holocaust denials by Arab leaders.

When the Arab Muslims first entered Jerusalem in the 700's AD they found a city whose Jews were kicked out and not allowed back by the local Christians.

The Temple Mount was literally used as a trash dump.

The Arabs were not happy with the situation and forced the local authorities to clean up the Jewish holy cites and invite back Jews to the city.

At first, some 70 Jewish families took the offer and moved in, and by the late 1800's the Jews became a majority in Jerusalem.

When this happened the Arabs along with their Turkish masters who at the time ruled the Ottoman Empire did absolutely nothing, and said absolutely nothing.

It was business as usual.

Now, compare this historical behavior with how Israelis have been treating Palestinians residents of Jerusalem with constant evicitions, home demolitions, revoking residential permits even for Palestinians born and raised there if they dare be absent from the city for 7 years, and worst of all transfering its citizens to land taken during the "pre-emptive" 6 Days War of 1967.

This transfer is totally illegal under international law.

Jerusalem, after all , wasn't even founded by the Jews. It was actually founded by the Canaanites at least 800 years before any Jews set foot on it.

At the height of its biblical history Jerusalem was a mere 15 acres. Now, after confiscating over 8% of West Bank Palestinian land and transfering it to Jerusalem, the city is ever growing with no end in sight.

I will let Nahum Goldmann, former President of the World Jewish Congress, have the last word in my post. In 1974, he wrote about The Original Sin:

"...If we had invested in the Arab problem a tenth of the energy, the passion, the ingenuity, the resourcefulness which we developed in order to gain the support of Britain, France, the US and Weimar Germany, our destiny in the development of Israel may have been quite different. We were not ready for compromises; we did not regard it as a major problem. We did not make sufficient efforts to get, if not the full agreement of the Arabs, at least their acquaiescence to a Jewish state, which I think would have been possible. That was the original sin."

freecrack, I agree that violence begets violence. In this forum I am trying to promote an educated discussion, force contributors to back up their statements with facts, and call out racists and antisemites who are hiding behind a current news story to vent their hatred.

and operation cast lead is retaliation for sderot and sderot is the retaliation for the wall the wall is retaliation for suicide bombers so on and so on.
how about not subscribing to violence apologies and take the position of all violence is wrong. without a stop in violence who will feel safe enough to speak peacefully?
if you want the situation to continue as it has of get worse by all means maintain a machiavelian perspective.
if you truly want the inhumane travesty in gaza to end condem violence and support a road to peace.
what will finger pointing accomplish aside from breeding hatred?

Are Muslims really illegally occupying the Dome?

This violence couldn't be retaliation for the Gaza slaughter and the ongoing settlement constructions could it?

this story made it into a post on the Current.com Blog! congrats!

Israelis exert overwhelming force at every juncture in dealing with the Palestinians. The invasion of Gaza last year resulted in almost two thousand palestinians dead including women and children. In all the rocket attacks that preceeded the Invasion less than two hundred Israelis were killed.
The Palestinians are living in squalor in Gaza with raw sewage and deplorable living conditions, if the Israelis really want peace in their own country they had better start to address the plight of the Palestiians. Before any of you call me any names you should know I am married to a jew and my closest freinds are as well. Many American Jews are not at all satisfied with the conduct of Israel.

tommic

“Muslims respecting the Jews in their special way in Jerusalem on the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. And the silence by the ummah (the worldwide Muslim community) is ..... predictable and vile.

The warning to stay away was not a warning but a signal to riot, that the violence was preplanned. Today, surprise, surprise, the police found wheelbarrows of rocks up on the HarHaBayit. Prepositioned, ready, tons of ammunition to rain down on women and children praying peacefully. Rocks may sound primitive and less dangerous than bullets or bombs. If you think that please review videos of stonings done under sharia law by Moslems as "punishment" for various sins and crimes. We're talking baseball sized rocks and lots of them.

Let me just point out that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian". It was a marketing term devised by the godfather of Islamic terror in the modern era, Yasser Arafat, to subvert and destroy the Jewish state and kill Jews.
REMOVE THE DOME FROM JEWISH LAND. STOP THE ISLAMIC OCCUPATION OF ISRAEL.

The Jews better start telling it like it really is and stop talking this dhimmi nonsense. Stop deferring to Islamic empire lust and imperialism. It's like the Jews are picking out the stones for their own graves.

After the Muslims "finished praying," they began stoning the Jews. Feel the love.

I see the Jew hating low life scum bags are out in full force for this thread. A real vomit fest.
The Temple Mount is illegally occupied by the Arabs and they have no right to be there. They practise a form of apartheid there, banning all non-Muslims from entering al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. No non-Muslim is even allowed on the Mount after 11.00am. The situation sucks and is sickening. The israelis are too soft on these bastards and should just flatten the two buildings and reclaim what is theirs. But guess what? The Jews want peace so they take the abuse. Big mistake.

Massanova

The US does not fund Iran.

The link you provided lists unverified facts, has quotes taken out of context and is clearly insubstantial in its nature with broken links, and paltry popups.

I'll repeat my question:

Do you define other democratic nations with self-defense campaigns in Arab lands as "terrorists?" America, England, Canada, etc.?

Israel's terror campaigns are legendary and very well documented. Here you go, read up for yourself.

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm

I do think that one of the most dispicable terror attack was the massacre of Dr. Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 praying Muslims on the Jewish holy day of Purim in 1994.

Goldstein was an American doctor and was a member of the American terrorist organization, the Jewish Defense League. The American media kept this very quiet.

Massanova,

Backup this fact, and provide some background.

Do you define other democratic nations with self-defense campaigns in Arab lands as "terrorists?" America, England, Canada, etc.?

FACT: America finances the most dangerous terrorist nation in the world.

ryan0000,

I asked what you would do, not what you would not do. You still provide no solution of where 6 million victims of 2000 years of discrimination and genocide should go.

Israel was Jewish territory in biblical times before they were ousted. Are the lives of people who lived a long time ago less valuable than the lives of people who live today?

Furthermore, you live on Native American lands I presume. Are you volunteering to return "your" land to them? I know many who would glady take it back.

Have you guys forgotten about the attack on Gaza almost a year ago? Israel used American military technology against the terms of our agreement(only for self-defense) to kill hundreds of Palestinians. On top of that there are well documented cases of human rights abuses in Gaza including the use of white phosphorus, using Palestinian civilians and children as human shields, the direct targeting of civilians and attacking a UN sanctioned refugee camp. The icing on the cake? Most of the buildings that were damaged in Operation Cast Lead have yet to be rebuilt due to the embargo and blockade on Gaza.

ryan0000,

More palestinians being killed than israeli's is no proof of your argument that Israeli's are not under constant attack. Palestinians kill fewer people than Israelis because their government is unorganized, inefficient and virtually non-existent. That in no way vindicates their actions.

What would be your response if people from your neighboring town randomly fired rockets into your town, even if they rarely hit their targets?

Furthermore, your tone is obnoxious and rude. I'm trying to have a polite discussion. Are you FUCKING serious?

markbt: "How would your opinion change if you were Jewish? Where would you go?"

I wouldn't move into land occupied by Palestinans for over 1000 years, call it mine, build settlements in the most populated areas, cage in gaza (literally...they can't leave), and then act SURPRISED when they fight back.

The state of Israel makes me sick to my stomach. And I'm ashamed my government is supporting them. They have 0 moral ground. THEY ARE AN OCCUPYING FORCE. How would you like it if a huge influx of muslims came into the U.S., and set up huge settlements all around your town, didn't let you leave, and imprison or kill many of your friends, family, etc.

Anyone claiming Israel has any right to do this is full of shit.

Right on ryan, the two posts above are a good example of why this would get ugly real fast.

The Palestinians are too busy acting like troglodytes to get their shit together and act like human beings and the Israelis are so caught up in their self-righteousness that they've forgotten that they're an imperialist nation oppressing an entire population based on race.

This is a classic example of why wars persist, cultural and social misunderstanding and tragedy coupled with greed and bloodlust.

Frank Furter: couldn't say it better. It should be obvious, but I guess people are distracted,misinformed,apathetic.

Markbt116: are you fucking kidding? Constant attack huh? Do your fucking homework.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3694350.stm

does that look equal to you? Palestinians fire rockets into SETTLEMENTS (illegal) at most killing 1 or 2 people, but mainly just hitting property. The response: Many times 100's of Palestinians killed, jailed, etc.

Wake up.

Frank Furter, Your response is disgusting, ignorant and working against your purpose.

Israel is under constant attack. Other arab nations refuse to accept Palestinian refugees, temporarily or permanently.

This article points out the restraint and tolerance of Israelis. For one, Arabs are allowed to live, work, vote and pray in Israel. Then when the Arabs plot attacks, the Israeli's stop short of banning all Arab religious practices and only ban it for young males who are most likely to carry out the attacks.

When is the last time you heard of a Jew freely and fearlessly attending religous services on Arab controlled territory.

How would your opinion change if you were Jewish? Where would you go?

Let's hope this simmers down, because a fight in Jerusalem could get fucking ugly real fast.