Doctors may 'fire' parents who don't vaccinate children

you don't know much of anything, do you

It is impossible to get shingles if you have never had chicken pox because it is not contagious. However, you can catch the varicella zoster virus from someone who has shingles, but then you would get chicken pox (the virus is the cause of both).

You get shingles when the virus, which has laid dormant in your nerves, re-emerges later in life. The reason UK has not mandated this vaccine is because it has been shown to be beneficial for adults with previous exposure to the virus, reducing the risk for shingles to manifest. Exposure to the virus from chicken pox serves a "booster shot," if you will.

Should be added here that we come into contact with much more mercury from food sources (seafood) than from vaccine sources. Also according to that link (good find) bekah posted the kind of mercury we get from seafood is more toxic than the kind in vaccines.

Trying to be nice is, well nice, but there is no equivalence here. People who believe in weird conspiracy theories and other attempts to discredit vaccines are simply ignorant.

2+2=4. Science works. People should find something real to worry about. Vaccines are safe and effective.

UndoInfluence, that is true. We are exposed to mercury through foods, especially fish, as well as other common objects such as mascara.

unimatrix0- Science may work and I'm wholly on the side of using common sense and science in responsible ways, but science is not always all-knowing and able to explain everything. The FDA link I provided clearly shows that we have not done the science to the full extent with this mercury variation in our vaccines. Therefore, science has neither proven nor disproven anything yet. So forgive me if this seems harsh, but you are going on the same ignorance that you are accusing others of. Mercury in it's natural for is extremely toxic and dangerous, as are other variations of it. This is why the FDA are in the process of trying to place this mercury type into context with all of the issues surrounding it.

In addition, doctors, scientists, and government officials are people too. And if an error occurs, it is up to the moral decisions of these people to fix them. But you cannot ignore the fact that there are those out there, even in those positions, that are not willing to take the fall for a mistake. Medical malpractice happens, more thorough and proper testing occurs, and amendments to laws are made. These are to combat previous known "facts" and statistics that these people have made in the past.

See the thing is, bekah, that one side is ignorant. They are ignorant of the fact that since 2001, childhood vaccines have not contained any amount of mercury whatsoever.

Not because there has been any substantiated link between vaccines and autism. Not because of confirmation of any sort of relationship between vaccination and deleterious effect. Because of fear. People's fear. The squeakiest wheel is getting the oil.

Sooooo, mercury is not causing the (continued) increase in autism diagnoses. What is happening is that in places where vaccination rates have plummeted, some childhood disease incidences have risen, for the first time, to near pre-vaccine levels.

By the way, science can't prove or disprove anything. Trust me, I know science.

*routine infant vaccines

thechilipepper0- the FDA actually says that there still is mercury in the vaccines. I'm not sure where you have gotten your information at, but the link I provided which gives a statement from the FDA on mercury in vaccines says that there still is. So saying that these people's fear is ignorant isn't helping the matter. The FDA says there are still vaccines that have mercury in them (while many have reduced or completely removed it) there's still those that have not- especially in influenza vaccines.

Right in the FDA's thimerosal introduction:
"Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine (see Table 1). A preservative-free version of the inactivated influenza vaccine (contains trace amounts of thimerosal) is available in limited supply at this time for use in infants, children and pregnant women. Some vaccines such as Td, which is indicated for older children (≥ 7 years of age) and adults, are also now available in formulations that are free of thimerosal or contain only trace amounts. Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose."
(Even those that have reduced their thimerosal content still use it in trace amounts.)

"The various mercury guidelines are based on epidemiological and laboratory studies of methyl mercury, whereas thimerosal is a derivative of ethyl mercury."
(There is no concrete studies on thimerosal. The studies we are basing toxicity and all our other safety issues on are from a different mercury variation.)

"As a precautionary measure, the Public Health Service (including the FDA, National Institutes of Health (NIH), Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) and the American Academy of Pediatrics issued two Joint Statements, urging vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal in vaccines as soon as possible (CDC 1999) and (CDC 2000). The U.S. Public Health Service agencies have collaborated with various investigators to initiate further studies to better understand any possible health effects from exposure to thimerosal in vaccines."

"Through its Vaccine Safety Datalink, the CDC has examined the incidence of autism as a function of the amount of thimerosal a child received from vaccines. Preliminary results indicated no change in autism rates relative to the amount of thimerosal a child received during the first six months of life (from 0 micrograms to greater than 160 micrograms). A weak association was found with thimerosal intake and certain neurodevelopmental disorders (such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) in one study, but was not found in a subsequent study. Additional studies are planned in these areas."
(And as for the link between autism and mercury, they have done some preliminary tests that came back supporting both ways. There was a weak association found in one study but not the other. This does not dismiss the issue or prove either side's point. It simply means, as the FDA have said, that more testing is needed because they simply don't know yet.)

Again, I still think that people who are hesitant to get their child vaccinated are taking the matter seriously- perhaps more than those who simply accept or refuse outright. I would suggest that they talk with their child's doctors to make sure that they are getting one of the vaccines that are known to be reduced or free of thimerosal. But that's just my opinion and what my fiance and I plan to do when the time comes.

Sorry, I added an addendum after I posted. And then I realized I could edit it. Whoops! I didn't consider the influenza vaccine a routine childhood vaccine since it is not required by schools for attendance. In any case, the only childhood vaccines still containing mercury are one version of dTaP and Influenza vaccines. There exist mercury-free alternatives for both.

Today, only one brand of flut shot (Novartis' Fluvirin) contains mercury. As your chart shows, one formulation has trace amounts.

Also, I believe (but may be mistaken) that you understand the FDA's definition of "thimerosal-free." In some unrelated instances, such as Trans fats, if it contains below a threshold amount, the food can be labeled trans fat free. This is deceptive, but sadly, legal. In the vaccines chart, thimerosal-free means exactly what it looks like. No thimerosal. Where it has been reduced to trace (less than or equal to 1 micrograms per dose) the chart labels it as trace.

They cannot determine toxic levels of the mercury compound in thimerosal b/c it is ethically moribund to intentionally poison human subjects. The info on methylmercury is all we got.

From the FDA: "In 2004, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its final report, examining the hypothesis that vaccines... [and] concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only." BTW, reviews are studies which examine a litany of other studies and derive a conclusion based on the pooled data.

I have nothing against people who want to stay informed. It's just that there is a large body of opinion on the internet that is flawed, based on anecdotal evidence, and thoroughly biased. Leading autism research is highlighting certain genes, but again, the specific cause is unknown. It might be even more complicated than that, as we are finding presence or absence of genes do not fully explain how a person turns out. There are activation states, activation timing (during development), interfering gene/gene complexes, promoters. All of these potentially come into play with Autism Spectrum Disorder. ASD is tricky, tricky, tricky.

It is ignorance like this that puts everyone at risk, people with no scientific understanding making crack pot decisions.

Science: The new word for God. If someone invokes the word science, in general to explain anything, then everyone should bow down and accept that the explanation is all knowing, all powerful, and the only correct answer.

This buzz word favorite of propaganda spewing morons on the internet is disgusting.

Anyone else sickened by this overly used word, to sell whatever tripe the average troll thinks you should have shoved down your throat, or injected into your body?

Oh Science, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name!

Any scientist worth his (or her) salt will tell you the scientific method does not prove things. It generates evidence divined from meticulous experimentation, control, and review that supports a hypothesis or goes against it.

If you think about it, science is a faith. When you break it down, you cannot prove anything. In any case, Seth, the Science you are describing is Media's Science, Sensational Science. That is what you get on the internet. And then there are the few who know science. If you can learn to discern Science from science, you will go a long way. And then maybe you will see the reason in faith.

unimatrix0, do you also believe there should be an i q test before an election? and the results decide whos votes count. Because that would be in line with your thinking here.

Viruses and bacteria propagate inside the body by replicating at tremendous clip. The faster and more often an organism (or life-like entity as in the virus) copies its genome, the higher the chance for errors in replication. That is what is referred to as "mutation." In the case of viruses and bacteria, a high mutation rate means many offspring will be unviable, but that beneficial mutations keep the overall population thriving and (potentially) one step ahead of the "arms race" with human meddling. Such is the case with HIV.

Put simply, your unvaccinated child is more likely to become a vector for these infectious agents to mutate and render medicine (antibiotics, vaccines, etc.) ineffective. With increased exposure to infection, they can propagate into variants more readily. Certain variants can decidedly more virulent, hence the Spanish Bird Flu, SARS, MRSA, you name it. HIV started as SIV, Simian Immuno-deficiency Virus.

^Pretty much, your unvaccinated child puts the whole species at risk by also keeping the disease circulating in the population longer.

Assuming, of course, that the vaccine does anything at all.

BTW, i don't get vaccines, i'm ok, people around me aren't sick all the time. I am rarely sick (anymore) and when I am it's usually only for 2 days or less. I take Vitamin D supplements everyday as well as a multivitamin to help with vegetable and fruit intake. I also occasionally take some Vitamin C supplements if I'm feeling a bit sickly.

....and there are people who get sick every other week. Some of them got all their vaccines. Some of them got none. Contrary to what you may think, people are not all the same. Anecdotes are not pervasive evidence.

The healthy human body is such a miracle of so many systems that must work in perfect harmony that it is no wonder some parts may function better in some than others. This is what you might call a difference is susceptibility to illness. So you've got great genes. Hey, me too! Unfortunately not everyone is like us. And A LOT of people do not get enough fruits or veggies. Maybe you should make that your cause. It would do better for public health than railing against vaccines.

Swine flu is a version of the "common" flu. The "common" flu is anything but thats why the vaccines that are made don't always work cause there are different types of flu types out there and you kinda have to guess which one will be the big one 6-8 months ahead of time. Most people have already been exposed to the swine flu in more than one "common" flu season. ADD is genetic, blame a different sort of injection your mom received, not the one you got as a kid.

On a side note: megadoses of Vitamin C actually compromise the immune system, you should probably look into any recent data on Vit C megadose supplements.

Same here. All I ever did as a kid was drink orange juice and run around sweating my ass off during recess. Even if I do get sick, it's only for like 2 days (cause I self induce fevers now ^^). The only touch of chicken pox I had ever gotten was a vaccine around my teen years. I seemed to have skipped that part when I was a kid. :(

Either way, doctors shouldn't impose vaccinations like that at such an early age. Sure, they could provide their opinion, but with so much anecdotal proof that vaccinations of newly born babies causes autism and whatnot... iono.

Amish communities as a whole are less vaccinated than the rest of the American population at a rate of about 50% vaccinated when looking at young and old generations. Child vaccination rates in the Amish however are on par with the rest of the country, and in the amish community vaccination occurrence isn't correlated to autism risk.

Some differences in the amish community: they DO NOT go in search of neurological disorder diagnoses like we do, they just adapt and train the children differently. They also don't have TV or the Internet and they also don't eat commercial caught seafood. But they definitely do get vaccinated.

In addition I would like to point out that it is not the "government" that makes these decisions. It is highly qualified doctors that specialize in disease control.

REALLY, was it the doctors in Mass that decided that anyone who doesnt take the shots can be sent to a camp and be quaratined until further notice. I was unaware that they were given voting rights in the mass state government

Nothing is above personal liberty, save personal responsibility. Yet, ones view of personal responsibility may not align with another's.

You CANNOT force your idea of morality on the populous. That's the tactic that Christianity tries to use and we've all seen how well that's gone.

Do what you will with your children, keep them away from those that don't get vaccinated, i certainly won't be the one to stop you. But know this, I have and will always have the right to raise my child how I wish. Vaccines or no vaccines.

"However do not expect me to be required to expose my children to yours. Period. End of fucking story."

Are you f@cking serious slarbee?

Expose your child to another child?

Because that childs parent is trying to avoid their kid from having MERCURY, and other poisons injected into their bodies?

This crap is so backwards it's sickening. Instead, the doctors, and parents, who have been informed those shots could debilitate their children sould be arrested for child endangerment!

People are completely dumbed down to the point of hilarity. Expose their children to my children!!!

Divide and conquer is working damn well as one can see by slabee's contribution here!

If you trust in vaccines so much why are you worried about exposing your children to non-vaccinated children? Shouldn't your vaccinations protect your children no worries?
It is the right of the parent to make choices for their children not the government. There is a risk in both vaccination and non-vaccination and it is the choice of the parent to weigh these risks and make the right decision for their family. It is naive to think that there is no risk in vaccination and also naive to think that vaccines do not provide any benefit.

OMG!! WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THE DOCTORS THEYRE KILLING US!!

Oh sorry I guess I should continue:

1. 106,000 Non-error, negative effects of drugs
2. 80,000 Infections in hospitals
3. 45,000 Other errors in hospitals
4. 12,000 Unnecessary surgery
5. 7,000 Medication errors in hospitals
250,000 Total deaths per year from iatrogenic* causes

Only #'s 3, 4, and 5 could possibly be attributed to doctors. Medication errors could be from a pharmacist. "Other errors in hospitals" does not necessarily mean doctors errors in hospitals. There are more people than just doctors in hospitals. Where are the stats for the number of people saved? Have a look at those and I think you'll find these numbers negligible.

That lifestyle section made me laugh.

NEWS BULLETIN: DYING IS THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH!!!

Vaccination should remain a choice! Access to medical care should be available regardless of someone's vaccination choice. Punishing people with refusal of care because they made a choice against the doctor's recommendation denies the end user the right to choose what should and should not be done to their own body (of that of a child in their care). As a previous poster said, this is America where we do have the freedom to choose [at least for now!]

WTF, I hope you don’t end up teaching my kids. Your idea of choice is skewed. A parent has a choice to which child care professional they wish to send their kids. If you don’t like the way they care for your kids you can go to another doctor. Sure, certain insurance limit you options but a parent could still pay out of pocket if they want to go to a different doctor who has the same ideological beliefs. A doctor that works for a private company has every right to choose their clients (Hippocratic Oath aside since this isn’t a matter of life of death.) If a doctor tells a cardiac arrest patient that they need to stop eating certain foods and stop their sedentary lifestyle but the patient refuses the doctor should have a right to tell the patient to not come back because it is wasting their offices time and resource.

In addition, your analogy to the public school teacher is bad logic. When you work for the public you must fulfill the public needs. In a teachers case the public demands (by law) a school year is X amount of days. By law a kid must go to school or they risk juvenile detention and the parents risk losing their kids. If the teacher worked for a private school they could try to stipulate that they want the ability to quarantine sick students. If the school feels like that is an unsuitable stipulation, the teacher probably won’t get hired. If the teacher doesn’t like the choices they probably won’t get hired, and nor should they.

Well said !

not to mention other cool stuff like monkey pus

monkey pus

lulz Saladin. My brother is a doctor and looks into this stuff as well. Again, there are doctors that are against vaccinations as well.

Remember that anyone can be swayed by money, what's to stop doctors as well. I've had a doctor tell me that they wouldn't answer a question about my health because that's not what my appointment was for.... wait what? Why should I make another appointment, oh that's right, more money. I wasn't asking for a full body check up, just a simple answer.

Annnnnd the failure of the private system gives you the right to question medical science how?

And, again, to put a narrative to the paranoia.

Someone who has spent their whole life studying medicine, presumably in the interest of helping sick people, and who is already making hand over fist is going to give you something he KNOWS will make you sick because he got "paid off?"

Where, pray tell, would this money come from? Because every doctor in America would have to be paid off, get back to me when you find A SINGLE ONE.

Tabular, that is when you find a new doctor. Cuz yours? Is shit.

Saladin, I'm not giving credence to TabRossa's point, but I wouldn't write off the fallibility of our doctors so quick. My father is a physician, and he regularly goes to the nicest fucking steakhouses in the city where he is lectured to by drug companies (The connections are more opaque than that, but thats more or less the gist). He's the furthest thing from corrupt, and this is a fact of life for doctors (google CME). But it would be naive to think it wouldn't influence how he practices medicine. Drug companies REALLY are that rich, and REALLY do that much pandering (also google "drug reps").

That makes sense, I definitely think that's true. Look at all the kids that are taking medication for ADHD, it's atrocious. But you'd lose your license from the board at the APA if you tried anything else. I'd say that's a good example of that.

But I just like pointing out paranoia for what it is.

You can't ascribe a generality like "all vaccines are bad" to the medical industry. The notion is absurd.

I hope you never reproduce.

If you enjoy creating retarded babies, go for it.

It's people like unimatrix, so willing to take their lumps. that just piss me off.

Believe everything the government or medical companies tell you and you will be a slave for as long as you live.

I don't care if you reproduce, but if you do, i hope your children are much more informed than you are unimatrix.

I'm not too big into conspiracy theories, but empire, you're right. The gov't and pharmaceutical cos. do not always have our best interest in mind. Civil rights denials, Iraq War, vioxx, and overprescription of SSRIs and adderall. These represent the failures of authority.

Then again, there are battles that have facts, and there are battles that have Jenny McCarthy.

There were plenty of people who choose a natural form of child raising long before mcarthy came along. Tell me what to do with my body? Scary world your headed towards. imagine your fear when the tables turn.

Actually we surpassed 1k a little while ago, we're slightly over 1/5 of the world's swine flu deaths.

One thing china is doing: they're rushing vaccines specifically to areas with reported outbreaks in order to contain the spread. China has also had less cases of swine flu than the US.

Check and mate!

Have you got yours yet? Get one for me while your at it.

A 30% decrease in child mortality worldwide has most likely come from an increased availability of vaccines in Third World countries that had little to no access to vaccines before- mixed with a high vulnerability to disease due to poverty and malnutrition.

Most would agree with you that vaccines save lives (I agree as well), but a mother who has taken her bubbling child to the doctor only to find a zombie in his/her place several days later, doesn't really care how much science you give her. Jenny McCarthy has never claimed to be a scientist.

It's hard to rationalize some of the awful chemicals and carcinogens that are found in these vaccines- especially for consumers in places like the U.S. that would willingly pay extra for more "green" vaccines (not that I would want other countries to have non-'green' ones).

You have very valid points for sure, but I don't like how people are made to seem like freaks or ignoramuses for questioning doctors, the CDC, and the FDA which have continuously allowed harmful drugs on the market.

Personally, I just found out that there is an Huge lawsuit against my (thankfully former) birth control producers because they forgot to mention that after taking it for a few years, there's a good chance you'll get a nice STROKE. I mean, how long has birth control been out? You would think they could make a safe one....

easy diode..

GWB went to to Yale. So these expert smart folks with the all the letters by their name can also be full of shit.

doctors go to school for 14 years for a reason. it takes that long to know what they know. so when a parent gets a "bad" feeling, i tell them tough luck

Alright then my brother who is a doctor and against the flu vaccination is right... right?

Diode, hardly do I ever flat out call someone a fool. But you are a fool if you follow everything "Smart People" say.

Degree's means close to nothing. There are smart people with and without them. e.g. Nikola Tesla

And Sure ChoirTramp, science and law are different but so is medical different from either of those. None the less there are idiots/morons in every category... sometimes they're not even idiots, they're just sellouts.

most of the vaccinations have kept dozens of diseases at bay that used to kill millions. if you don't want them, fine, invest in baby coffins cuz thats what you'll need when you're baby dies of something stupid that it could have been vaccinated against

Your right, doctors do go through 14 years of education to know what they know.

But, it only takes a little bribe money or some threats from politicians and medical companies, alike, to make what the learned merely a fading memory.

Follow the money and you will find the answer to most of societies issues.

diode - what the average lifespan of a doctor of medicine?

The percentage of incompetent people in the medical profession is equal to that in any other profession. Choose the group you consider beneath you and then consider there are as many incompetent doctors as that group.

It is a complete fallacy to think or say that because a person went to college for any number of years they are somehow moral, intelligent, are abreast of all issues in their field or competent.

More people die each year at the hand of doctors and crew than from "alleged" cigarette related deaths.

I'm smart enough to know that doctors are just human, not Gods. I will decide what to do with my health care and my childrens!

Did you just make up these statistics? You can't just make up numbers and state them as facts. I agree that vaccines have their place but many of the diseases that we are vaccinating for have a very low mortality rate. Such as Chickenpox and Mumps.

ignorance is bliss!

yelling "big pharma" does not negate your responsibility as a parent.

please do some research before spreading ignorance and fear.

and there are a helluva lot of them that DO. There's nothing natural about vaccines...

ill believe it when i see the data

then go google your ass off.

Yes theres nothing nature about vaccines. And we only want natural things in our bodies like bacteria and virus's. Because you know everything unnatural is bad and everything natural is good.

PS You could find 100 articles claiming the holocaust is fake if you googled that

Really you means the one that big pharma has the billions of dollars to create or manufacture out of thin air? Anyone willing to get an injection of poison into their body deserves whatever ill effects it gives them.

Formaldehyde is also in cigarettes, the toxic chemical in spoiled meat (putrescine) & cockroach pheremones (2-ethylphenol) are in coffee (naturally), etc. There are similar, if not worse, things in processed foods. Barbecuing meats and frying foods introduce acrylamide, a carcinogen. Tanning and sunburns increase the risk of skin cancer. High fructose corn syrup is found in nearly everything is nutritiously vacuous.

You should avoid a modern lifestyle more than you should avoid vaccines.

Follow the money on those studies and you may find that they were funded by pharmaceutical companies. Don't be so quick to assume that good unbiased science was used.