IS ABORTION JUST A WOMEN DECISION OR BOTH, MAN & WOMEN

Get Wit It didn't spoke down to anyone

Abraham Lincoln was a great speaker and he wrote his own speeches. He was a terrible speller and even worse at grammar.

Ernest Hemingway was the same way....well he was more of a terrible speller.

revering US presidents? count me out. how does this tickle your fancy? from the author of the declaration of independence...

"the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" -Thomas Jefferson

using the bible, even then, as one's reference point immediately renders one's argument futile. remember back in history class? the part about how we came to this land to GET AWAY FROM RELIGION? was that part left out of your scriptures?

j_j. we just can't legislate religious beliefs. that's SO 300 years ago.

You just started a new conversation.

I'll wait until you actually continue the one you started in this post.

i agree

so do I.

MORE DELUSIONAL EVIDENCE!

Ah...so women are inherently tyrants.

Yes yes J, women are tyrants, and selfish whores, don't forget your original assertion of selfish whores... we get it, you have a problem with women who get abortions and want to enforce guilt while getting everyone riled up. Got any new tricks?

Sarcasm.

Do you have any new tricks?

Well, reasoning with you and having a sensible conversation was working out so marvelously, I thought you'd be getting bored of it by now!

Sarcasm again.

Redundancy in progress.

i must be a tad daft today; i missed who you might be referring too. ah well.

Predicted....where?

Meh, I'm having fun, besides, I put all of my alerts about messages from current into my junk mail. I'd go insane otherwise.

you definitely speck with experience

There is no obviously because that would mean you have facts to back your statement up other than opinion. I do not believe you have such. Obviously shouldn't be used.

I don't understand your objection, are you saying that a man can be "as affected" by the outcome of this decision as a woman?

Obviously on the stakeholder is ridiculous use of the word. It's like you're stating if someone doesn't see it for what you believe to be right then they are wrong and stupid because they missed the apparent "fact".

If it took only the woman to make the child you'd might have a point. But since that didn't happen and she needed the sperm to create the baby with her monthly egg...well the decision was two then to have sex and then two to create a baby....it should be two deciding on having it.

Her body is the weakest argument ever.

There are many court cases where the court intervenes and won't allow someone to do what they want with their body. So it's a bogus use of defense.

Of course when it comes to sexual reproduction men have to be involved. But I'm not going to back down from the assertion that each party suffers very different risks. Beyond the immediate risk of infection with an STD a man is obligated to risk literally nothing in having a child with a woman, honorable men stick around to raise the child but that is a choice. Whereas a woman puts up her whole internal and psychological homeostasis as collateral, worst case scenarios include death and lasting depression.

Do you find these notions to lack veracity? Which ones specifically do you dispute?

Your whole wording I dispute. You try so hard to make being pregnant a chore and a hateful task.

And I take you think that men shouldn't have an legal need to provide any financial help to the woman such as child support since she pushed it out herself she can pay for it herself.

At the risk of being crass - I don't know what the hell you're talking about

If I have put you off being pregnant don't do it

Now it "seems" like you are accusing me of not believing in fatherhood but I can't be sure. Please either edit your original post for the sake of clarity or expound. I don't know if English is your first language but I ask that you make an effort to be clear.

I don't know what you don't get.

Explain yourself better.

"And I take you think that men shouldn't have an legal need to provide any financial help to the woman such as child support since she pushed it out herself she can pay for it herself."

This is the part I don't get
Are you saying I believe this or is this something that you believe, is it something that one of us doesn't believe? The grammar and incorrect use of language relegate the statement to ambiguity.

Just becuase you don't get it doesn't mean it's wrong.

But for your sake:

Men don't have to pay child support because the women do all the work making the baby they can do all the work raising the baby.

/end of story.

SO what you're saying is that if a man is expected to pay child support in certain contexts, then he must also get a say in whether the child is aborted....Is that what you are saying?

If a woman has the right to do what she wants because it's her body (stupid reasoning) then she has to pay for the baby should she decide to keep the baby. The male has NO connection to her what-so-ever. None. He doesn't have to do anything to help her even if it were a mutual agreement to have the child.

Why?

Her body. Her problem.

Well that is a somewhat consistent point of view, before now my posts were aimed at addressing logical errors in your arguments. I don't fully agree with you, but that is at least a self consistent argument, which is good enough for me.

I don't agree with it either. But that is the logic that is used to dictate the fake woman's rights.

You have MAJOR point!!!! wow!!! respect

see, we're on the same page bailey78, but some of the rest have some great views, like depending on the situation, "rape"

Well yea thats just common sence. I would never expect A woman that was Raped or was pregnant by way of incest to have to carry a child to full term. I don't like the fact that so many think an abortion is practicing safe sex.

What if the relationship is good and a disagreement accrued and the lady finally tells the man that she's scared about having the baby because she's not sure if you would be a good mother.. and it was kind of planned, then what?

Stupid people would die if it were black market just like drugs...stupid people die.

As for not harming them----those people don't know how to research right. You can't do something that dramatic and it not affect you.

Getwitit - That sounds like an issue that needs to be worked out between those people. If a woman is in the position where the father is available and interested, she should include him in the decision process.

Right J, the American Psycological Association, those fools don't know what they are doing! They think they're so smart with their fancy doctorates, published, peer reviewed research papers and years of education and experience in the field! Clearly you are more qualified to speak on this matter; what was I thinking...

None of that means they know what they are talking about. Porn stars have education as well...doesn't mean they aren't stupid whores.

You're stating that as if it matters. A homeless person could have been a millionaire, but that doesn't matter when he's sitting on the side of the street hungry and alone.

Someone can be a Greek and Hebrew reader and writer, doesn't mean they'll interpret the Bible correctly. That's like stating a Kindergartner who can read and write English can understand Shakespeare based on that alone.

These are the same morons that think that video games have zero affect on people. You can't put trash into your mind and then produce positive results. It's not possible and no study will make it so.

Having a LIFE in you (whether or not you lie to yourself and say it isn't) and killing he/she to fulfill a selfish desire will rot you from the inside out.

That's like stating those that go into war are fine with killing others because they are fighting for the right side. Haha....just because someone is a specialist or they spout big words and write papers doesn't mean they are 100% right.

Foolishness to think otherwise.

Yep, I'm clearly the fool in this conversation. How can I argue against the insight that you've provided in this thread, like "women are selfish whores" and "stupid people die" ... I sure hope you are recording these gems of wisdom for future generations!

I also enjoyed your random analogies, you're ever the clever conversationalist! Now that you've so thoroughly disproved the validity of highly educated doctors and scientists, I hope you don't mind if I ask YOU to be my reference, since you obviously know more than anyone. What's extra special is that while you contend that researchers don't know jack, your opinion is somehow correct without even needing evidence to back it up! Amazing! It's all so clear to me now...

I called no one a fool on this site. My statement was that it's foolish to think that they are 100% right.

The rest of what you said is non-important.

If there's anything you ARE an expert on, it's most certainly non-importance.

I agree with you Delia, it is beautiful when a man and woman can come together and make a child, the person with the most at stake makes the final call. Pregnancy represents a massive physical and psychological disruption of a person's most intimate equilibria. Despite the presence of social and legal stigma a man is in a very real sense able to duck out whenever he chooses. No one but the woman in questions should have the final say.

Delia, I very much like and respect your thoughtful comments, but I do think the jist of it is that if life is defined as sacred from conception, those adhering to that concept cannot compromise with any other ethical arguments because murder is the ultimate crime. "Sacred" is pretty hard to define in secular law, so I prefer your point of view, but that hardly matters when a significant percentage of the populace considers those involved with abortion are murderers. One of those unsolveable problems, it seems to me.

I don't care to be agreed with.

The destruction of humanity and the Earth is not happening because of my views. Nothing I do or have said or the way I live my life is destroying anything.

I don't kill babies.

You don't care to be agreed with, J? But surely there are people lining up outside of your door to endorse your viewpoint...

Please, tell me about the destruction of humanity and earth, how one can contribute to it, and how you have avoided such a burden. Yes, I've been sarcastic, but this time I swear I really interested...

Keep kicking ass DeliaTHEArtist. I do not understand where J is trying to bring the conversation and for what purpose. I also feel that no one should respond to this poor confused soul. This is such a hard issue for most anyone. I believe it really depends on how you view the situation. Think of not a cute baby but a little cell who might become a baby, but you never know what might happen. hey, you don't want that responsibility? we can fix that for you.

The sperm and the egg of a human man and woman will ALWAYS create a human. It has never been proven (and never will be) to create anything other than a human.

So women are selfish whores?

Yes, women are selfish whores... because not only did Found_Avenue hint at that very idea multiple times, but he even went so far as to bluntly announce that women are selfish whores.

Oh, Found_Avenue didn't do that... Oh shit... I guess that wasn't implied here.

By the way, why would a woman of such morals as to sleep around be considered a whore or a slut which have very negative connotations, but a man is usually considered a stud?

You did not address selfishness.

So you agreed. Thank you.

I'm sorry, I forgot that it is much more difficult to pick up sarcasm in a written medium. Yes I was being sarcastic, though I'm not convinced that you didn't pick that up.

As far as selfish goes, I figured that since all humans are inherently selfish that it was redundant to call a woman selfish or argue the point. I'm sorry for my misunderstanding on that part.

Humans are also inherently hypocritical and are a mass of contradictions.

That doens't mean you can't call someone a hypocrite or call out how they are full of contradictions.

It matters not if humans are inherently anything. That doesn't detract from the FACT that abortions = selfishness and I'm not talking about the 'inherent' kind. I'm talking about the over the top kind.

J,
Its amusing to me that you don't see the selfishness in expecting a human being who does not want to give birth, to voluntarily allow her vagina to get all torn up by the head of a baby, simply because it would please you.

Newsflash: Your thoughts on this issue are exactly as selfish as the ideas which you oppose. No more, and no less. So you can climb off of your high horse now.

It's selfless to give birth.

It's selfish to abort.

Simple as that.

It's selfless to give birth? Are there not people who have kids just for the welfare? Are there not people in other nations or in this one who have kids just to have someone who can support them in their later years? I will yield that usually having a child is a selfless act because of all of the effort it takes to raise a child, but there can be many selfish reasons behind a selfless act that out weight the acts.

Isn't all abortions due to the woman being raped?

Ohno that's too extreme so that's not right. Just because it happens doesn't mean it's the majority. I should remember that next time.

Found_ave., Your explanation of how this issue should be dealt with in our country is right on, in my opinion. I do not understand why there are some who would deny that right. I feel if the women chooses that option, that this will be one experience that weighs heavy on their conscious and not on mine. If I were in a relationship I would want consideration of my opinion but I have no authority over another individuals life choices and decisions. I am even disagree with some of them but I will not tell her she can't do it. She can and I want her to have protection under health-care(i dont' believe it should be insurance, its a right) I want this procedure to be in a regular doctors office with out fear of harassment.

What if the relationship is good and a disagreement accrued and the lady finally tells the man that she's scared about having the baby because she's not sure if you would be a good mother.. and it was kind of planned, then what?

the advice for this situation is the same advice i give every time where abortion is concerned.you think yourself and all your options through you make the best choice you can for your self and resolute your self to it.but on a personal note.always remember no matter what you believe that when you are alone in the dark with only your self it feels like murder

Good point!

exactly!!! and that the lack of responsibility.

No child support

But women want their cake and eat it too....so they can be fat and happy. By all means be so...but don't get mad when you're called a bloated cow.

aborting a child is what women do and that's not showing any love for anyone...the child or themselves.

Neither is forcing a woman to "take responsibility" for a decision that 2 people made when she is the one faced with ALL the consequences. How is that right?

It's not right that a child is born in Africa and then a few months later starves to death. Arguing the right of a selfish woman isn't really winning points.

There are also people in Africa who think that if you have HIV and have sex, willing or not, with a virgin that does not have HIV, you will be cured of the disease.

The point being, a lot of Africa consists of third world nations where people don't know what a condom is or how to use it, and where tradition has taught them that having lots of children to take care of you when you get old is a good system of retirement.

Abortion is the topic, not me.

Found_Avenue, I have to agree with J_Jammer on that. Abortion is the issue, not speculating on peoples personal lives. Though a sharp tongue can be fun in these kind of debates, please don't speculate or suggest about such things.

Yes, but in this open forum, you have chosen to discuss women with such bizarrely virulent, hostile, spite-filled words, that you MAKE yourself the topic of conversation.

You might get off on being an "unpopular" voice on current, but by now, you must be smart enough to realize that using misogynistic arguments will cause people to judge you thusly.

Stick to ethics, ideals, and intelligent arguments, and you won't be made the topic of conversation. Let bitterness and defensiveness control what you say, and people will respond to you in kind. It's hard to hear your real opinions (you know - the ones that are informed by logic and NOT emotion or personal vendettas) because right now, you're coming across as an angry, introverted adolescent who is determined to carry a lifetime of unjustified resentment towards women...

I can say whatever I want to about anyone I want to as long as it's not about anyone on this site. So you can threaten me with your words all you want to, it won't change what I can do and will do.

And I have a sharper tongue and powerful wit. I'm also smart enough to know that I'm not getting int this with you. I'd win. You'd cry but the outcome wouldn't be good and I'll stick with the outcomes that are good so that playing another day is what happens.

If you can't handle the topic at hand maybe you should forfeit posting in this topic. If you can continue on topic then you'll do just fine.

I am not the topic. Just remember that.

Sigh, that went well.

Back to topic?