Japan embarks on annual whale hunt; can Sea Shepherd be far behind?

Hello ankab,
This conversation has already come to an end but I never once said Japan was the only whaling country. I disapprove of people judging others on the basis of culture. The previous individual in the discussion greatly defended your side with sensible information and arguments. I think I defended my viewpoint as well. Norway and Finland also fish for whales, as they are plentiful in those areas and good to eat. My concern is the fact that our country must become involved in every other country's business. We are not the "World's Police". A silly American does not have the right to tell another individual who has grown up in a different country with different customs and experiences that they are morally right or wrong. It's simply none of our business. If you read the article or the previous comments, the government only sponsors about 10% of the Japanese whaling industry while the sales of the meat account for the rest. The fishermen working for the corporations do not make that much money and it's silly to think that they are anything but lower to middle class. Hurting the worker never hurts the corporation.

What is interesting about minke whales being abundant is that they were completely ignored during commercial whaling because of their small size relative to blues, humpbacks, and other large whales. They were considered a joke and waste of time. The IWC continually failed from the 50's - 80's to set "sustainable" kill quotas and the larger whale populations were decimated enough to get support for the whaling ban to allow populations to recover. Some have done better than others. Mikes are still abundant b/c they were never desirable until the large whales were almost gone (some are still close).

So saying that the minkes are ok to hunt because they are abundant, is just the next step in the process that has wiped out the oceans' once abundant whale population. The blues are gone, the sperms are abundant. The sperms are gone, the humpbacks are abundant. Now that the larger whales are all decimated, the minkes are abundant. Japan is notorious for overfishing. They'll do the same thing to the minkes if they had their way. The difference is that this time there is no demand for the meat and its all sitting in deep freeze storage.

One more point... you mentione thier research is being done to show the abundance of minke whales to support lifting the ban. Why does that research have to be lethal? It would seem a population study, under normal circumstances, does not include killing the subjects (with brutally and slow means on top of that).

According to the article, it seems that due to lack of interest from the younger population, whaling would likely die out. However, because of political moves by anti-whaling groups and the Sea Shepherd, many in Japan view these actions as attacks on their culture and have turned to support whaling because of all the national attention it's getting with those fine folks at Whale Wars. I don't really see what's wrong with letting the older Japanese population, who is used to eating whale meat, enjoy it while they're living so this 'issue' can naturally die out due to lack of interest in whale meat from the younger generation.

From the article:
"He said the entire operation costs $65 million to $76 million per year, of which the government provides about $5.5 million. The rest comes from selling the whale meat, and the entire operation is "barely making a profit."

That's a lot of whale meat sold. Having anything over a million dollar industry demonstrates the demand for that product.

It's interesting that you cited the sperm whale as being 'extinct' or 'endangered'. That has to do with the way whale populations are structured. Sperm whales in particular live in many different remote areas in which they can be neither hunted nor counted. They also dive for longer periods of time than other large whales, making it so the don't return to the surface as often. Maybe in select parts of the world, the animal population has decreased, but that's not to say the trend is worldwide. The problem you are, or should be, having is the fact that 400,000 large male sperm whales were killed in the 20th century, and therefore the birth rate has been reduced. However, to say an animal in the ocean is extinct or endangered is a very hard stance to take.

"However, to say an animal in the ocean is extinct or endangered is a very hard stance to take."

I don't agree with this point. There are many species in the oceans that are endangered. The southern and northern resident orca pods in the pacific northwest, atlantic & mediterranean bluefin tuna, various species of sharks, chinook salmon in the pacific northwest... All these are well studied in terms of population, threats and are in fact endangered.

As to your other points, I simply do not see the need for whaling and I think the methods used on an intelligent and socially complex mammal are incredibly cruel. No land based slaughterhouse would be permitted to use these methods, which in most cases have the whales writhing in intense pain for extended periods of time.

I also think whales are absolutely incredible to see in their natural environment. Its my personal opinion that they've been hunted enough and its time to let them be. I'd like them to be able to grow their populations and live how they have lived for millions of years before we came onto the scene. I get that not everyone feels that way. But having seen humpbacks and orcas upclose from a kayak, I'll always feel that they have more value just doing what they do, without interfence from us.

I have seen whales as well in the wild. While all animals are beautiful, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be eaten. Buffalo and deer are great examples of this, as are even cows (I think, anyway). It is great to have a passion for something, but when a passion goes so far that it causes people to commit international crimes or affect diplomacy, there can be problems. I also don't think it's positive when people, like the guy from Whale Wars, try to incite anger at other cultures to further a political cause. I don't like the way Whale Wars is looked at positively as many viewers don't consider all of the consequences of these peoples' actions.

Thanks for helping me learn more about whales and whaling, and we can agree to disagree on some of the other issues. I really have to taste a whale first before I can join the cause. (joke)

yeah thats exactly the same thing... comparing chickens and cows to whales. ocean dwelling animals to factory farmed animals. International waters to country's jurisdiction. that is exactly the same thing.

I hope those people that are killing these whales get fucking murdered in cold blood, how about that? Biocentrism at its finest, and to me, a whale is worth more than 100 humans.

What, ii?

which part was unclear?

Wow. 100 humans are equal to one whale to you? That's funny, since you need human beings to protect whales. What you really mean is, "human beings who agree with you are okay, but those who don't are worth killing". Good thing the world doesn't give a sh*t about your opinions! It's very funny that you bring up factory farming. In Japan, a mountainous region, factory farming is nearly impossible. Since the country is an island, the population has existed by fishing. I highly doubt you'd think the same way if something happened to someone in your family, yet it seems that your parents have enough money to help you embrace these crazy opinions without much recourse in your life. It's always the rich simpletons who have decided to make a very complex problem suddenly a simple one.

haha no. not at all. I am not rich. Thanks though. Humans do not need to protect whales from anything except other humans...they live in the ocean and have done so for longer than we've known that they have existed...

I was bringing up factory farming to null your stupid simplified comparison that a whale is the same as our factory farmed animals. Not in any way was I mentioning Japan's factory farming or the lack thereof. I was stating that you comparison was over simplified and not even applicable. The same goes for you and really everyone--no one gives a shit about you or your opinions! so that was unnecessary to say.

My crazy opinion is that humans exploit everything I and do not think they are entitled to. it is a complex issue because Japan has agreed to treaties that would prevent "research" on whales but instead they continue on doing it. No research is published (which the treaty requires). There must be a lot of research going on!

In no way is this a necessity. In no way is this something that should be condoned until there are no whales left.

International Whaling Commission
Antarctic Treaty

On 23 July 1982, members of the IWC voted by the necessary three-quarters majority to implement a pause on commercial whaling. The relevant text reads:

“Not withstanding the other provisions of paragraph 10, catch limits for the killing for commercial purposes of whales from all stocks for the 1986 coastal and the 1985/86 pelagic seasons and thereafter shall be zero. This provision will be kept under review, based upon the best scientific advice, and by 1990 at the latest the Commission will undertake a comprehensive assessment of the effects of this decision on whale stocks and consider modification of this provision and the establishment of other catch limits."

Guess who belongs to the International Whaling Commission? Japan does.

Furthermore, their research permit has been in effect since then. So this is really all research? If it were necessary for their sustenance then it would have been a different permit. Where's the research?

http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/table_permit.htm --- Scientific Research Permits issued-- majority of them going to Japan and guess what?! You cannot waste the whale meat once you've taken them for 'research'! How convenient and thrifty of those nice Japanese people, not to waste meat!

Population Estimates --

http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

Notice how so many species are very few and unknown? Wow. Considering this is the entire ocean, I don't think that 100, 1000, 3000, or even 10,000 whales is all that many.

Actually, maritime law dictates that a boat from one country cannot attack a boat from another country unless we have enacted war, even if both boats are in international waters. This is the problem with Whale Wars and diplomatic ties to other countries. Factory farmed animals are not the same as wild animals, yet as long as an individual is able to support his family through hunting, there should not be others telling him or her that he or she is morally and culturally unjustified in doing so. If you are not rich, you should understand that life is rough and some people have no other choices than the ones they are given. I was stating that the people on the show Whale Wars attack the WORKER, not the corporation employing the worker. Do you think the corporation loses money over a whale being lost? If you were to support every single animal on this earth that's gone extinct, you'd have no time to do so. As humans, we even hunted our previous evolutions to extinction.

What gets to me most about people with opinions like yours (100 humans is equal to the death of 1 whale) is the spreading hatred for one's own population. It's like racism, but with animals. If you want to fight a political battle about the value of animal life, then you can't seriously say that the life of a chicken is not worth as much as the life of a whale. So far, we can't even compare brain capacity (I haven't seen any whales developing tools or philosophical thoughts recently, nor have I seen a chicken do these things. They are therefore of the same value).

For clarification, I was not iterating my own opinion on whaling and its equality to the slaughter of factory farmed cattle and poultry - I was stating the story from the recent South Park episode because the people commenting on this forum seemed to have missed the point of the recent episode of South Park. If you want to go tell someone they're wrong, go tell Matt Stone and Trey Parker that their comparison was inaccurate. Personally, I don't give a crap about whales (so go and hug a tree) [from the episode...don't get angry here].

And the International Council on Human Rights has China as one of its permanent members. Obviously these committees are not constructed to do anything - just to make us feel better about ourselves.

The Japanese have been hunting whales since we've been living in caves. They're not extinct yet, and if there are 10,000 whales in the ocean, then they can repopulate for the next season if only 1,000 are hunted. A lack of whales hurts their business just as much as (or more than) it hurts your conscience. It's simply bad business to kill all the whales.

the problem with that argument is simple-- they are not supposed to be for sustenance. They are issued scientific research permits. They are clearly NOT DOING RESEARCH. They are not supporting their families through the food that the whale meat provides, or at least that's not what they claim upfront. They claim research, which it is not.

Are you trying to justify hunting animals to extinction in the guise of survival? I highly doubt the Japanese people would starve if they went without whale! come on.

Whales are convenient and thrifty. I didn't really understand what you just said there. One whale produces a lot of meat, and every part of the whale can be used for different products. This is why early Americans loved hunting the American Alligator and Buffalo. Not to mention, whales are super tasty.

I'm justifying hunting in that I don't believe whales are going to extinct. I'm sorry, but a marine biologist tracking even 100 whales does not mean that they are tracking all the whales in the sea. I am also stating that going out and hurting the worker will not hurt the corporation. I never said the worker takes the whale home for themselves. Where'd you get this idea? That's physically impossible. They cause the workers to lose money and time when they disrupt their fishing activities.

I don't really care - I don't eat or not eat whale. It's not really my concern what another country or culture decides to do (I'm not a xenophobe). It's in their culture and I guess if I grew up with these ideas I'd be pro-whale hunting, too.

My point was that whale is taken for scientific research, not food. Fish for something else, just do away with the whales. Raise other fish in rice paddies, aquaculture, fisheries, or harvest from the ocean sustainably.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

If you want to prove your point don't cite everything from one political enterprise that makes money off of your political views.

So does the cause validate the multiple and international illegal actions taken by the protagonist on Whale Wars to incite racial/cultural hatred against the Japanese (including faking that he got shot by Japanese whale hunters in order to bring people over to his cause)?

Okay, even with the scientific research, I don't see a problem with them keeping the meat. Agree to disagree is fine. I don't really swing either way on the issue except in the facet that it hurts poor workers to hit their boat with another boat. It's good that you care about what you believe in and thanks for the interesting discussion. Have a good day!

Just adding some info to your discussion. This is not some fishing village custom that dates back thousands of years. (not that a long standing custom would justify the horrific and painfully slow deaths that occur). The Japanese whaling industry was established post WWII. And because only 1-3% of the population eats the meat, there are thousands of tons of whale meat surplus in deep freeze. And because the industry is not profitable, it is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government. So there isn't much of a point to this. The workers are getting paid no matter what. The industry is outdated and not necessary. The Japanese governemtn is considering ending the subsidies, which would bring about an end to Japanese commercial/research whaling.

As far as whales going extinct, their numbers are still so far below pre-commercial hunting numbers. For example, Blue Whales used to number over 300,000 and they are around 10,000 today. There is a very interesting book called Harpoon, Into the Heart of Whaling, that goes through the history of commercial whaling. It is interesting that the industry started with the largest whales and practically wiped them out over time moving to the smaller ones as the larger ones became threatened with extinction. During all this time, the IWC set quotas at levels higher than what scientists wanted but were politically agreed upon. Very simialr to what we are seeing today with blue fin tuna and the body charged with regulating a sustainable catch.

Just sayin.

While commercial whaling started in the 20th century, you can't say whaling in Japan is not a custom as they'be been doing it as early as 1500 BC (the oldest book surviving in Japan speaks of consuption of whale meat) and large amounts of whaling in Japan have been going on since the 12th century. If you don't believe me, look it up. In fact, the Inuit culture in America has been whaling that long. You can see that with the whale bone penis clubs used in early warfare. If you don't think Japanese fishermen don't lose money when they return with a broken boat and lost whales, then that's a dream. Someone pays for what's lost, and the methods that the Sea Shepherd and his crew use are nothing but foolish and despicable. In earlier times, the acts they've committed would have resulted in war.

I understand about inuit subsitence hunting, but that is not the case here. These whalers are not villagers taking part in ritual hunting to feed their tribe. They are not fishermen in any traditional sense. And I don't think their wages are dependent on thier catch. The whaling industry is not able to sell their catch, even when below quota, because of the lack of demand. Their wages are what they are and the industry is heavily subsidized by the government because it is not profitable. So yes, someone pays -- the government/tax payers. And it isn't for what's lost, it is for the lack of profit from a lack of demand. Taking the Sea Shepherd out of the equation for a moment, the Japanese commercial / research whaling is not sustainable in any respect -- environmentally or financially. So why not just end it?

I believe humans are meant to use the resources of this planet, and I view animals as resources for human consumption.enjoyment, whatever.

I know there are a lot of people that feel that way. I'm not saying we shouldn't use resources, obviously. But I think that we need to do it responsibly and ethically. And I think that species that evolved long before us and share the planet have rights to use resources as well.

Wow. You totally missed the point of that episode. The point was that these idiots on their little boat are ignoring 'problems' at home (our own 'mass murder', if you will) of livestock while demonizing the Japanese who have been doing this for generations. The show is disgusting to watch. These people interrupt fishermen's lives, often times AFTER the whale has ALREADY BEEN KILLED. Yeah, that's so valiant of you all, let's run our boat into a bunch of fishermen whose lives aren't hard enough as it is.

I think Whale Wars makes America and the American Left look like stupid, selfish, thoughtless prissy twats. I really wish it would be taken off the air.

Not to mention they violate international law and make that seem as if doing so is 'proper' or 'heroic'. I don't understand how Whale Wars even exists as a t.v. show as it blatantly throws its stupid 'principles' in the face of established international law. These people are terrorists, not heroes.

Just wait till they find out it was Chicken and Cow.

i completely agree with you. if that is not what they're researching, or possibly the best seasoning for whale bacon, then they really suck at research.