Who needs God when we've got Mammon?

how dare you make me lol, 02. ;P

Yeah, daily galaxy writer. -Cracked me up.

Actually those verses are about fiscal responsibility.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.

The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

But when the man heard this he became very sad, for he was very rich.

When Jesus saw this, he said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

Those who heard this said, “Then who in the world can be saved?”

He replied, “What is impossible for people is possible with God.”

Luke 18:18-27

You are barking up the wrong tree. Using the bible to instruct me or using your logic from the bible is not going to make me "think" or change my way of "thinking". Been there for many long sorry years, a slave to scripture, thinking that somewhere in there was going to be the key to everlasting life. There isn't anything there but words by men who all died. Jesus is dead, get over it.

I promise I won't quote anymore scriptures to you, if you promise to stop doing it to me. Otherwise I am going to have to ignore you like you don't even exist.

I enjoy debating with logic and reason. Occasionally I throw out a scripture, but I do so very sparingly, mostly to show how the bible contradicts itself and how people can interpret the same scriptures differently.

Whether there is an afterlife or not is really irrelevant to me in the here and now. I am living one day at a time to its fullest. If there is an eternity, I am living it now, I am not waiting until I die for my eternity to begin.

The way I see it, you are either going to live a powerful life or you are going to live a failed life. Powerful is knowing your self and letting your light of understanding shine brightly for all to see. Failed is living in the shadows of fear and trembling at the words on a piece of paper.

Jubal! Ju-bal, Ju-bal
I love it.

Im sorry Jubal but if the topic of discussion calls for a scripture im going to use it and if that means having you block me so be it.

and dont to go into a forum about religion without expecting me to bust out a bible verse to validate my points.

if u want to talk about secular issues, fine i am more than willing to debate without using scriptures (and you know i do), but just remember my christian values will always be behind them

is me using a bible verse worse than you ridiculing tea party members by calling them tea baggers?

i consider that offensive and a dead end to any real debate

I am not the only one who refers to teaparty people as tea baggers. I am being disrespectful when I do that. You are right. I didn't say block, because I wouldn't do that. If you want to send me private messages, you haven't sent me one that was insulting or a personal attack. That would be the only reason that I would actually block someone.

Actually I did block some people who had proposed marriage, but that is another story.

I said ignore, which is another thing entirely.

Did I ever tell you I was a Jehovah's Witness for several years? I went door to door and engaged in many lively bible debates, defending the truth. That is Jehovah's Witnesses Truth.

Here are all the Religions I have been affiliated with in my life:

1. Catholic (at birth and received first communion and confirmation)
2. Baptist (attended over a hundred services, my mother was Baptist but later converted to Catholic, then later became a Pentecostal Evangelical)
3. Evangelical/Pentecostal (spent some time following televangelists and this guy who was doing a whole thing on bible prophecies, his ministry was Amazing Prophecies)
4. Various Philosophies (during the my final year in High School I had taken a comparative religion class, I was attending a Jesuit High School and there I learned about all the Eastern Religions. It was a survey class, but we learned about their beliefs. I was very interested in Buddhism which I later tried to follow for a while.)
5. Jehovah's Witnesses (I was with them for almost four years after leaving High School)
6. Twelve Steps of AA (For a period of many years following my excommunication from JW's I turned to the Twelve Steps of AA for guidance attended many different 12 Step programs including Alanon, Co-Dependents Anonymous, Incest Survivors Anonymous, and Adult Children of Alcoholics. Attending these programs had the most impact on my life in terms of finding personal freedom.)
7. Gnostic (Christian Gnosticism)

Today I do not participate in any organized religions. I do not believe the bible to be the word of god. I feel at home with atheists and agnostics, I am still a theist, but the closest thing to a religion for me would be Gnosticism and the 12 Steps (God as you understand God). I am the ultimate authority in my life when it comes to beliefs. Truth for me is not absolute and is subject to adjustments as more is revealed to me in my search for inner truth. I believe in truths that would be defined as natural laws of science. I also believe in metaphysical truths, but those are like philosophies of any kind, including organized religions. It is ludicrous for any philosophy or religion to claim that they have the exclusive understanding of truth.

Just because I don't believe the bible is the word of god doesn't mean I can't appreciate it for literature, I still refer to the bible for its stories. Every good story teaches us things, but my bottom line philosophy is "TAKE WHAT YOU LIKE AND LEAVE THE REST."

You may think you have one up on me because you are still a loyal follower of the bible and you are some kind of Christian, but I do not know which kind you are.

Lets get one thing straight here, I am no better than you and you are no better than me because of belief or lack of belief in the bible.

Now when you say that you feel a little insulted by the reference to tea baggers, I retort that I am offended that you quote bible scriptures. They are the same thing because we both know that it is offensive to the other. Calling someone a tea bagger or quoting a bible scripture are ways to exalt one's self while demeaning the other. I won't demean you if you won't demean me, its really that simple. But we can also continue to play tit for tat, too. But playing that game is so juvenile and boring. It doesn't take much intelligence to be intentionally offensive. Real intelligence is learning how to win your opponent over by finding common ground and building on that.

You have been challenged.

i am just a bible believing christian i dont subscribe to any denomination, because i feel theyre too divisive i read the bible before i went to any church and like i mentioned to the other guy im not religous because religion implies rules and/or rituals but i go to church so i can fellowship with other believers. i have personal relationship with christ and he speaks to me through his word

no i dont have one up on you, i consider my self the king of all sinners ( as paul so eloquently put it)

and like i said earlier if the topic of discussion calls for it i will use a bible verse but if were talking about something like healthcare i see no need to bring a bible verse into the conversation

err, you mean Saul?

You're mistaken. I am qualified - and in the following manner: As you have pointed out, there are many ways in which people can create abuse for others on fallacious reasoning. Religion, however, is a neutral ground. It is the one court of play and the one subject most abused by the religious and of course, historically. We know that more abuse has been meted out by religion on this planet.
Then there is the aspect of brotherly love. I am not making light by this. Why is the passion to debate religion? -Certainly there can abusers needing to inflict pain.
However, I believe that most are, in fact, trying to commune with others and precisely because we are the same.
When we are young, we are trying to find ourselves. This is not my purpose.

There is the statement of declaration that there is a God. We know that one's feeling or acceptance of a God is not questioned, however, the subject of God becomes a question of the greatest profundity and here on Current, it has been proffered in discussion.
Of course when one's conception and perhaps very hold on good is challenged so, it may seem harsh; but I wish to remind you that it cannot be if not tendered as abuse or for abusive purpose.

I must offer this, if one does not wish to have their notions of God bruised, it is best to not engage in such discussion.
I do sense you are a good man. It seems obvious. (You did, bring it up).
I hope you will remember that I am not trying to harm - I am actually trying to enlighten. How are established mental constructions to be effected, if at least one voice does not aggravate occasionally? Shake 'em up a little bit?

Let me put it to you this way: If your child were suddenly pulled around by an obvious cult - manipulated by some 'belief' mechanism that would lead their life in directions that had they not been so encumbered, they would not take, would you endeavor and hope to broaden that vision?
Especially when they brought it up all the time. Because, while caustic at times, I am quite genuine.

Thanx!

The term God denotes the creator of everything. Since we can see 250 Billion stars in this galaxy alone (and more than 100 Billion Galaxies), it must be assumed that the power of the universe is fantastically greater than any of us can comprehend; or certainly will. Or very certainly - have.

Yet anyone who 'believes in God' (other than an appreciation that we are actually living in an actual reality), goes right ahead and promulgates some idea or scheme they think is God and decides to 'believe' in that.

You know that you don't get God but you have decided that your idea is God.
It means simply that whatever your ideas are, they are a mistake. They don't add up to God. You know they don't add up to God but since you want to believe, you go right ahead and believe your ideas amount to God

250 Billion Stars - with multiple planets - like this one - necessarily is way beyond whatever our ideas amount to, nor whatever books are floated about, nor whatever our mommies and daddies told us, nor how many people 'believe' whatever they believe.
Could they all be wrong? - Unfortunately for the god-people, yes. Their "God" is not the creator. It's bigger than that (or again) it wouldn't be GOD.
So, perhaps there's room for yet a greater expansion of one's intellectual discriminations.

02 , What you write is something to consider and you do well to keep that in mind , if only for humility's sake . You are leaving out a few key details . Experience and Individuality . Also , the term "God" is often a symbol for that , which is beyond comprehension . Rumi called it "the great mystery" , and wrote "some mysteries are not meant to be solved " . I climbed a mountain , once . Glaciers and clouds around and below . The spring waterfalls diving into prisms of diaphanous rainbows , and the full moon so close ... Though my senses , were full open , I was aware the sublimeness was beyond the limit of my comprehension . I can only hope my feeble human imagination and awareness were expanded by the experience . What need do I have of faith , when I have experience ? Whether you commune with the cosmos or with a personal deity , the individual experience with the cosmos is unique to you . You can argue with that if you like for what little good it will do you . You can never be , that person , know their individual experience . They can not be you . We each must find our own path .

This is true. I keep pounding my good friend because he is Christian. In the end, he can't answer the various traps I set for him, but he has retorted that he has had spiritual revelation - or the deep personal religious experience.

Of course, I have an opinion about that! :-} We've let our positions stand.

But certainly, I can feel that your mountain glacier experience was transcendent joy, truly; and based entirely in the real.

Mindless, happy, gerbils. Small envelopes. Low ceiling, high floor. Constrained outlooks. Dead people. The Herd of the Dead.

I think that book was written for political purposes (ie. control)...

And you think selected songs to be associated with the bible (psalms) are going to support a secular state?

Of course psalms support a religious society. Anyone could have assumed as much.

What produces good public policy are the results of unbiased research, not references to one side's religious manual.

Some nations boast of their chariots and horses,
but we boast in the name of the Lord our God.
Those nations will fall down and collapse,
but we will rise up and stand firm.
Psalm 20:7,8

The US boasts of its military power all the time...

A careless person,
Quoting much of the scriptural text but not living it,
Cannot share the abundance of the holy life,
Just as the cowherd, counting other people's cattle,
Cannot taste the milk or ghee.

Reciting a small portion of the scriptures,
But putting it diligently into practice;
Letting go of passion, aggression, and confusion;
Revering the truth with a clear mind;
And not clinging to anything, here or hereafter;
Brings the harvest of the holy life.

- from ananda maitreya's translation of the Dhammapada, 1 (Twins) 19 & 20

Don't you want to be in control of your own mind? How are you going to have real morals if you don't allow yourself, your own morals? The power of your own mind?
You're missing out on your own life. -Just, throwing it away. tick-tock.

my own morals?

lol ive lived that life long enough. it was very selfish

i finally found the truth and im sticking to it

"[I] must decrease [God] must increase"

Well, of course, your own morals are taking over. Aren't they? - I have found people tend to get better the more they stay around.

morals arent relative

-Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

-You shall not murder.

-Neither shall you commit adultery.

-Neither shall you steal.

-Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

-Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

do any of these seem relative?

or vauge in any manner?

The ten commandments are meant for people who pastor others. It outlines what they should and must not do to their flock.

And also, I believe one doesn't get morals from a book. If you can't figure out right from wrong and need to read the bible, well, that's an excuse I guess.
But as soon as someone holds to "rules" - especially rules made up by others, one stops thinking.

It's a hell of a thing to give up thinking.

I say drop the rules and find out how to be a right-thinking man in your own shoes. Your own backbone. Don't worry, it's right there as soon as you let go. Everything you hope to expect from yourself - will find you.

But you gotta drop 'the rules'. Let go of the chains. What you've been thinking might save you has been your trap.

but your conscience attests to them right?

Right is right. It's nice the bible says so - but how 'bout you? Or Me?

I know right from wrong. I am unfettered.

The Ten Commandments are like a mirror, it shows us our sin, and makes us realize our need for a savior. We are not able to keep them, but Jesus Christ did, therefore we are not saved by keeping the commandments.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Ephesians 2:8,9

Of course people wrestle with "sin" in these religions - but I say If you don't like some bad habit, throw it off - and walk away clean.

I know this: If anyone wrestles with emotional or mental problems, ideas or fixations, they are making those strong in their mind. That's what your brain does, a thought comes in your mind and if kept up, becomes your mind. Becomes you.

If you stop exercising any mental conditioning, line of thought or outlook, if fades away. What you haven't thought, five years running is five years gone.

Likewise, if one thinks and rethinks it becomes as strong as you.

Therefore, all this fretting and these things people think about and pray about reinforce themselves upon them. That includes visualizing sin upon yourself and creating ideas about the devil everywhere, etc. As many do.

You end up creating for yourself, those things you dislike or abhor. You make them you by thinking or dwelling on them.

Throw off - everything you don't want in your life. After a time, it will be truly gone.

That's nice, and all, but you've detracted from the original argument (likely because you couldn't stand your ground).

I would implore you to consider your religion to yourself vs. its role in society. These are two very different things.

As a case study, take a look at Norway. 2nd highest GDP per capita in the world, and yet they have a abundantly secular society.

Many religious christian conservatives in power tend to advocate for very non-christian policy. If you need examples, you aren't paying attention. To summarize, your personal religious journey has no relevance in a free democracy's policy making.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

Certainly not!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6 17-23

That sounds like a bad acid trip. Whoever came up with that needs to have their brain rung out.
It could be done pretty easy, ya just get an old ringer/washer, put yer head in and keep cranking.
Then, for God's sake, don't read any more of that shit.

CreditFigaro yes i know i deluded from my original point but How exactly does GDP point to how prosperous and happy a country is?

i advocate strong religous freedoms but i dont advocate a secular humanist society because athiesm is a religion as well and would breach the seperation of church and state.

02 i didnt really expect you to understand that

its basically saying that we had no knowledge of our sin therefore we were slaves to it, but when we are shown the ten commandments we are shown our chains

Jesus has provided the freedom through his death and ressurection

we are no longer slaves to ourselves but free in Jesus

Well, you obviously got religion. My whole hope is that it doesn't make a slave of you.
Some people like religion and they stick with it. Good luck.

im not religous, religion implies that there are rules and/or mandatory rituals, i have a personal relationship with christ

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both..."

1 corinthians 6:12,13

Yeah, well, ain't that the truth.

Come on, that's not true. Many smart people have been religious. Religion is a way of answering problems that you can't solve, and if you're very intelligent and think all the time, you may start to lose hope because of the seeming irrationality and despair in the world. Then religion or depression are often your only choices.

No - one of your choices is to just smarten up, pull your belt tight and grow-up. It ends up that your true self, your truly grown-up self, is the real person. You were born alone and you can stand on your own feet - and really, you'll be happiest.

There's only one god - stop praying to the devil. There isn't one.
There's just you - and the rest of god's creation...

Good observation . Being a part of a community helps many things . You get buy with a little help from you friends .

......a bit preachy for my taste.

That's just how I talk, I know it sounds a bit pretentious

Actually, the USA is not the world's most prosperous nation, far from it.

If you read it then post the link. It is so NOT important when someone makes a completely contradictory statement saying "I read it somewhere" but can't put it out there for other to read it. This statement is meaningless in this discussion if you can't provide a source.

I wasn't trying to "prove" anything. I just stated that I've read opposing conclusions before. If you don't want to believe me, I don't give a damn.

That said, I just typed in "religious people are happier" in Google and came up with 298,000 results. The phrase "atheists are happier", meanwhile, came up with 92,200 results.

I don't believe any of these is the article I originally read before, but here are just a few of the search results:

Is God an Anti-Depressant?: Studies Show That Religious People Are Happier
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=435412&page=1

Religious people more likely to be happy
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3577517.ece

Religious Believers Happier than Atheists and Agnostics: Study
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08031807.html

So quit being so goddamn snarky.

Thank you for doing that. I actually did read that same thing myself somewhere, that religious people tend to be happier. But I disagree with that conclusion.

Of all the very religious people that I know, perhaps 40 or so, they seem happy on the outside, when they are around other religious folks, like at church or at a 'get together', but what I see when there isn't anyone around looking at them, they are miserable. Many of them have very angry disagreements with their spouses and their children over doctrine and dogma. They complain about how terrible everything is and how they can't wait for the rapture or Jesus return to put all the bad people in their place. They stir up trouble where none previously existed.

Most of the people who I know that have turned their backs on organized religions did so because of the suffering they experienced trying to "fit in". They are now happier people because they separated themselves from their abusers.

Similarly, I have met many people who claimed to have had miserable lives of alcoholism, gambling, domestic abuse, family problems, etc, who eventually joined their church community, made friends who supported them, cleaned up their lives, and became much happier in the process.

I think it would be ignorant to declare that either experience is exclusively valid. Religion has done great things for some people and caused others grief. Considering the world is home to billions of religious people and billions of non-religious people, it would be silly to assert that either group is unambiguously happier than the other. There are too many extraneous factors. Life might be happier in Scandinavia than in the Middle East, but religion is not the only thing that distinguishes the two region from each other. Nepal is supposedly the happiest country in the world, and nearly everyone there is religious, the majority being Hindu.

Etc.

I know a gal who is happiest when she stays in bed, completely stoned on proscriptions and pot, watching the same movies over and over.

Regardless, human's brains are taken up with something - what? What is the thought-stream and therefore life that you have?

Remember, every other thing that you might be is traded in for what you keep thinking.

*recommend*

That's a crock and you know it. Have atheists ever operated hospitals? Soup Kitchens? Foodbanks? Shelters? Social Service agencies? Housing for the elderly poor? It sounds to me you're just parroting your professors who are telling you what to think. Grow up.

what a crock of shit, g-man- you're on a roll!