Secret Lives of Women - Husband Beaters

It seems we agree on some points. However I don't see all abuse as control. Some one may tolerate abuse as simple as insults because they believe they love that person. The insults may not be controlling or physical but it is abuse. Over time, if the abuse gets worse rather than better, and it continues to be tolerated, and it turns to complete control, well . . . maybe it is weak mindedness. I think the "Lover Boy" phenomenon of the Netherlands brings that whole idea into the gray though. Some people are raised to be more forgiving and trusting.

The problem seems to be the idea that one would willingly be victimized. Where you may see a person". . . that can't defend himself "(or herself), I may see a person who is overly tolerant and patient.

by the way Cal, I saw this video last week and I was amazed at how tall and beautiful she was!! But you can't tell me there are 7 foot tall women, running around the US smacking guys around or verbally abusing them! lol...

Do you really believe in that statement? You don't think men that are abused are not weak? If they are not weak, than what are they? I'm just wondering because I don't get how someone who can't defend himself with his mind or strength is not weak... but that's just my opinion...

If you can, please elaborate..

Domestic violence is not about weakness. It's about one wanting control, domination and power in the relationship. And the best way to control, dominate and overpower the other is through physical, mental, verbal, emotional, socioeconomic violence. This has nothing to do with "weakness" or "strength."

Let me ask you something. Replace men with women and see if your statement still stands.
"Do you really believe in that statement? You don't think [women] that are abused are not weak? If they are not weak, than what are they? I'm just wondering because I don't get how someone who can't defend [herself] with [her] mind or strength is not weak... but that's just my opinion..."

Does it still apply to this situation? Do you think women are weak against their abusers because they don't fight back? If no, then there is a double standard that's being held which implies that men and women should be treated and reacted to differently, especially in the case of violence and abuse.

And if you still seriously believe that whoever is abused is just weak, then I suggest reading more about the facts and research about domestic violence in general. For starters, here is a website for the national domestic violence hotline.

http://www.ndvh.org/get-educated/what-is-domestic-violence/

Also, the idea that whoever is being abuse is weak is moving the blame from the abuser to the abused. When that happens, the abused is being victimized all over again.

First, thank you for elaborating, but no need for the link on further education. I wasn't asking for you to break down my comment, I was asking for an opinion on your statement. I wasn't attacking it, did I question it? yes, but not attack it...

Now, I do hold women and men to different standards when it comes to spousal abuse because a men should be able, again, if he's bigger, he should be able to defend himself and walk away. I never heard cases of a man being knocked out cold by a single slap like when a man does it to a women. I see your point and understand it when applying a women to it, but it's not the same.

I know all men are not created equal and there are always going to be smaller men than women in some relationships, but to say a man that's bigger than a female is not capable of defending himself is not weak, than it's your opinion, not mine.

I know men that have been abused as well as women and have always sympathize with the women first because the men that allowed their woman to abused them, were mentally weak, not physically weak. My family overall has a long history of male machismo and in some cases abused wifes, but most of the time when a men in my family tried it, the women in my family got involved and there was a beating of some sort on the men.

Was it to control the men? no,

was it to stop the men from abusing my aunts and cousins? yes!!

Is it conventional? no, but does it happen often where families gather together and apply force to stop spousal abuse? in this case on the male side, yes!

I'm not a fan of any type of abuse onto anyone, specially when it's towards kids and women, but you can sit there and keep changing the roles and I still wont classified them equal because a man, that's bigger than a female, should be able to defend himself. If he can't do it, then he should follow your links, because he needs it, not me.

I've always been against abusive men and their attacks on kids, wifes, sisters and strangers and will always defend them. Shit, I remember dating a Puerto Rican woman that tried her abusive ways with me and I stopped it the first time she tried it. Did i use force? nope, I used my mind and explained to her why she shouldn't. It took some time for her to understand but I noticed the men in her past, never stood up to themselves because she was the bread winner and she was a strong girl too. At 5'9 and knowing martial arts, this girl could kick anyone's ass, but she did try it once and again, violence wasn't my answer, educating her and showing her that it's not needed was a better solution.

Now, If I see a man hitting a women and she's on the ground and not able to defend herself, I'm going to go in there and stop it with force... why? because he's not going to come to reason and stop, even if i'm God. He's using force and that's all he knows...

So can I understand that men that are abuse shouldn't be consider weak, I can't. There are exceptions to the rule and yes, there are always going to be smaller men than women in some relationships and that's when I sympathize for them, but when that's not the case and they are just being pushed around and abuse....... then I do consider them weak.

Forget the mental, verbal, emotional, socioeconomic violence. I understand this country is lacking education for men and women, but not strength.

Thank you again for your comment, but I can continue living my life knowing that I can always talk to a women 95% of the time and come to a solution to a problem, compare to a man, that's lacking education and thinks he's the man.

Ksirys , thanks for explaining that so well . You guys generally have WAY more natural upper body strength than any female I know .

can we ignore the major contributing factors to DV?? It has nothing to do with physical strength.... Abuse never starets off as assault, it slowly builds into that point. As Ksyris has explained its about control, not strength. Most abusers start off with the verbal and mental abuse and it escalates when their s/o does not leave. Besides it doesnt matter how strong you are when you have a weapon in your hand.....

@KSirys,
"First, thank you for elaborating, but no need for the link on further education. I wasn't asking for you to break down my comment, I was asking for an opinion on your statement. I wasn't attacking it, did I question it? yes, but not attack it..."

No problem. :) And if my comment seemed defensive, sorry didn't mean to.

"Now, I do hold women and men to different standards when it comes to spousal abuse because a men should be able, again, if he's bigger, he should be able to defend himself and walk away. I never heard cases of a man being knocked out cold by a single slap like when a man does it to a women...So can I understand that men that are abuse shouldn't be consider weak, I can't. There are exceptions to the rule and yes, there are always going to be smaller men than women in some relationships and that's when I sympathize for them, but when that's not the case and they are just being pushed around and abuse....... then I do consider them weak."

Then by that logic, we shouldn't show sympathy to women in abusive relationships. Women should have the ability to just walked away. How about in other situations such as one abusive woman in a lesbian relationship? How about an abusive man in a homosexual relationship? The logic crumbles even further in situations of homosexual relationships. One logic that applies to one situation should have the ability to be applied to all situations involving the same incident, in this case domestic violence/abuse. And like I said, it has nothing to do with strength. It has nothing to do with size. And it definitely has nothing to do with gender/sex. Abuse is about controlling the other by ways of withholding, demeaning, humiliating and breaking down the other person. "Domestic violence and abuse are used for one purpose and one purpose only: to gain and maintain total control over you. An abuser doesn’t “play fair.” Abusers use fear, guilt, shame, and intimidation to wear you down and keep you under their thumb. Your abuser may also threaten you, hurt you, or hurt those around you (http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.h...)." When discussing about domestic violence, no professional or governmental programs uses gender words to describe domestic violence. It's because it cuts across all ethnic, gender, intellectual, socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds.

It's similar in the case of rape. People who rape are not these "oversexual beings" but beings that seek to dominate someone else. Yes, men can and have raped women. But women can and have raped men as well.

"Forget the mental, verbal, emotional, socioeconomic violence. I understand this country is lacking education for men and women, but not strength."
Wait..what? Forget the mental, verbal, emotional and socioeconomic violence? That isn't about a lack of education on the abuser, those all count as ways of abuse. Destroying one's self-esteem isn't abuse? Demeaning someone isn't abuse? Using emotions to control the person isn't abuse?Withholding money from the significant other isn't abuse? I forgot to mention sexual but I think it's pretty obvious what I'll say.

Overall, the point of abuse is that it is chronic and the goal is to control and dominate. And to emphasize again, this has NOTHING to do with sheer strength or size. And I said in the previous post, if the man who is abused is considered weak, then that is moving the blame from the abuser to the abused, resulting in further victimizing. The abused becomes ignored and joked about (demeaned). It is similar to the abuser except that it is society and logical fallacies such as those that continue to hurt the abused and create further misunderstanding and misconceptions about the issue of domestic violence.

I know a woman who is a 4'2'' and physically abused her 6' tall boyfriend and later another man her husband. There are many men who stay in abusive relationships and being blackmailed that if he leaves he will never see his children. It is very easy to make comments "walk away" when you really have no personal experience.

@motherfortruth,

"It is very easy to make comments "walk away" when you really have no personal experience."

Wow... It sure is very easy to make the comment "walk away" because I do have "personal experience" in the matter. But thank you for "assuming"... since we see that happen most of the time on this site.

@KSirys,
Please channel your anger and get involved to make changes and fix the wrongs.
I am here to have an intelligent discussion and not anger competition, or a "biggest victim" competition. Experience of abuse in your family has shaped you to have a strong one-sided opinion. My life experience and my professional experience influence my opinion. Only in open discussion we can find solution to a common goal - end of the violence.

@MotherForTruth,

lol.. you're the one here angry because you assumed i didn't have "personal experience". and now you're suggesting "biggest victim" as well?? Wow... You need the help!

You're only right about one thing, think about a solution before you start attacking others. Good thing there is a block feature on this site...

@regjoeschmo,

great sites for data, but again, every form of research is never 100% accurate. Or should I think that these types of data are 100% facts??

Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims (based on data) -http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2677098.ece

White boys smarter than girls and non-whites (based on data) - http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/jamesedwards/2009/04/22/white-boys-smarter-t...

It's great to have the internet and all of the "researches" that are done, but by no mean are they 100% fact.

when the data consists of factual sources, and empirical study they definately do have more clout than surveys done by special interest groups who depend on the data they recieve to increase their funding.....

Well stated.

Except that domestic violence isn't about taking it out on others. Its about one's ability to control the significant other.

Yes, there are some instances that people take their emotions onto unsuspecting people. But, in the case of domestic violence, it is chronic. The abused is experiencing this from a spectrum of every day to several times a year.

There is a big difference between "I am sick and tired of hearing you nag!" and "You little shit, where's my dinner you fag/slut?!" The first one is clearly about someone who had a bad day or something similar to that. The first statement barely has any hints of control. But, the other is obviously someone who is abusive. The statement's aim is to be demeaning and humiliating to gain power over the victim.

Domestic violence is considered to be in the category of abuse. My suspicions about why it's called domestic violence is because of society's ignorance, misunderstanding, and misinformation about the mentality of both the abuser and abused in a relationship that is otherwise known as unhealthy. Domestic violence isn't about yelling at your significant other or taking their anger out. But, it is chronic with one being the person in control and the other being controlled.

Yes , it is about power and control . These people use this method to cope with the world . It is a short term solution and does not usually address the real issue .

There is a difference between power and cope. There is no evidence or research to suggest that power and coping in a abusive relationship is correlated. There is also no evidence to suggest that the abuser in the relationship is abusing because that is their way of coping with life. But, there is evidence to suggest that the risk factors for someone to be an abuser is when they themselves have witnessed one of their parent abusing the other. According to social-learning theories, the abuser has witnessed how their parents have interacted and will copy what they witnessed (the model) and will do the same in their future relationships. In a sense, there are research that concludes a correlation between learning to abuse and abusive parents within their participants.

Power is intentional and actively seek to control and dominate through the methods of demeaning and humiliation.

Coping is both unintentional and intentional but it does not seek to control and dominate.

@anglcazn,

"But, there is evidence to suggest that the risk factors for someone to be an abuser is when they themselves have witnessed one of their parent abusing the other. According to social-learning theories, the abuser has witnessed how their parents have interacted and will copy what they witnessed (the model) and will do the same in their future relationships. In a sense, there are research that concludes a correlation between learning to abuse and abusive parents within their participants"

Nope!

Sorry, but this model doesn't always apply. I grew up around so called men, (more like cowards) abusing their wives, my dad at times attacking my mother both mentally and abusively, once we left the surroundings of her family members. In grammar school, get picked on until I was in high school and I started to fight back. In the streets because I was poor and didn't have the means for a different pair of jeans or fancy shirts from so called friends. But for all the abuse I grew up around and verbal attacks that were addressed at me when I got to this country because I couldn't speak english or dress like the rest of the latinos or blacks in my community, not once have I apply those same tactics unless someone was stupid enough to think they can start some shit with me.

Like I've said before, 95% of the time, I can communicate with a female or even a male if he's educated. But that percentage drops when you're talking to a guy who thinks his way is the right way and thinks he's "the man". There are women that also think like that, but not as many tried to get tough or push your views to the side and diminish you because of their size or strength. It's not always verbal, because I don't hear Doctors, Attorneys, Politicians or Engineers on the news because they were verbally abused.

You might think that power or cope might not correlate with each other, but once you see the abusive side of a relationship, all the so called data, research and studies go out the window, because half the time they are not right.

I'm no doctor and never will become one, but it's pretty simple to understand this type of behavior when you've lived it and can actually say, you don't fit into the so called "research"

"Sorry, but this model doesn't always apply. I grew up around so called men, (more like cowards) abusing their wives, my dad at times attacking my mother both mentally and abusively, once we left the surroundings of her family members. In grammar school, get picked on until I was in high school and I started to fight back. In the streets because I was poor and didn't have the means for a different pair of jeans or fancy shirts from so called friends. But for all the abuse I grew up around and verbal attacks that were addressed at me when I got to this country because I couldn't speak english or dress like the rest of the latinos or blacks in my community, not once have I apply those same tactics unless someone was stupid enough to think they can start some shit with me."

Did I mention risk factors?? I wasn't stating it as the "cause." No where in my statement did I say what caused what. I said there was a correlation, which is different from cause. And what I was stating from the social-learning model is a way of treating the situation of those that abused and those that are abusers.

"You might think that power or cope might not correlate with each other, but once you see the abusive side of a relationship, all the so called data, research and studies go out the window, because half the time they are not right."

It seems that you're not here for the sake of discussing but to be righteous in your opinions. Yes, your experience makes you valuable as an individual. But, if you're claiming your experience as fact, your overshadowing others who experienced similar situations but are in different predicaments. Experiences are great but data, research and studies are based on the general participants in an experimental or observational setting. Half the time they're not right? Do you even know how research is conducted? Or are you picking and choosing based on your experiences?

"I'm no doctor and never will become one, but it's pretty simple to understand this type of behavior when you've lived it and can actually say, you don't fit into the so called "research""
And the argument of "you'll never know how it feels because you never experienced it" comes up. One doesn't need to merely experience it to understand it. The job of research is to inform the general public about the topic so people who do not experience it can at least understand and possibly prevent it.

@anglcazn.

"It seems that you're not here for the sake of discussing but to be righteous in your opinions. Yes, your experience makes you valuable as an individual. But, if you're claiming your experience as fact, your overshadowing others who experienced similar situations but are in different predicaments. Experiences are great but data, research and studies are based on the general participants in an experimental or observational setting. Half the time they're not right? Do you even know how research is conducted? Or are you picking and choosing based on your experiences?"

My sincere apologies if my comment seemed righteous, but in no way was I trying to do that. I was just stating my experiences and why I think, again, I think there shouldn't be an equal standard for women in abusive relationships. Both men and women should face the same legal punishment because there are no rulers in one relationship... there should be compromise and understanding of each others rights beliefs in any relationship.

"And the argument of "you'll never know how it feels because you never experienced it" comes up. One doesn't need to merely experience it to understand it. The job of research is to inform the general public about the topic so people who do not experience it can at least understand and possibly prevent it."

Again, my comment on experience wasn't meant towards you, it was a general term used on the logic of research.

anglcazn , you seem like a very intelligent young woman . With a lot of book learning . Life experience will add a whole new dimension to your knowledge . You can CHOOSE to use power to deal with your problems , or you can think about them some . Consider your options . Men have a great deal more upper body strength . More than me at least . It is TOO EASY for them to resort to the power of force , because it takes no thought . Mentally lazy , you might say . Tempting . Fewer women have this option . Some can use looks , words , and can be skilled manipulators , as well as some men . That is my experience , and also what I have studied .