Community | December 07, 2009 | 174 comments

Jewish groups back Muslims on minaret ban

source: http://current.com/http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259831455845&pagename=JPost%2...

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Vierotchka
http://blog.travailler-en-suisse.ch/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/stop-minarets-sui...

Citing religious discrimination, a diverse coalition of Jewish organizations is objecting to Switzerland's ban of minarets on local mosques.

Swiss voters this week approved by a strong majority a referendum outlawing the construction of minarets. The measure, pushed by the right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP), was supported by 57 percent of the population.

However, Jewish organizations, realizing that a crackdown on Islam could have repercussions for Jews as well, have come to the defense of Muslim worshipers, arguing that the Swiss's move was unjustifiable.

Rabbi Pinchas Dunner, executive director of the Conference of European Rabbis, an Orthodox organization, said "a war on religious freedom cannot defeat Islamic extremists. The best weapon against radical Islam is support for moderate elements in the Muslim community and promoting interfaith dialogue."

In contrast, the Anti-Defamation League tied the move to religious discrimination against Jews.

"This is not the first time a Swiss popular vote has been used to promote religious intolerance," said the ADL in a press release. "A century ago, a Swiss referendum banned Jewish ritual slaughter, in an attempt to drive out its Jewish population."

Noting that the "Swiss government opposed the initiative during the campaign and underscored its commitment to religious freedom in a statement after the vote," the ADL urged Swiss leaders to "be vigilant" in their "defense of religious freedom, even though the SVP is the largest party in the Swiss Parliament and has two of the seven government ministries."

The American Jewish Committee's David Harris echoed these statements. "The referendum result amounts to an attack on the fundamental values of mutual respect," he said.

"While there are certainly understandable concerns in Europe over Islamist extremism, these cannot be legitimately addressed through a blanket assault on Muslim communities and their religious symbols," he added.

Meanwhile, it appeared that Italy might hold an anti-minaret referendum of its own.

Roberto Caldeoli, leader of Italy's right-wing Northern League party, said, "Respect for other religions is important, but we must put the brakes on Muslim propaganda, or else we will end up with an Islamic political party."

French Ambassador Christophe Bigot told The Jerusalem Post that "Muslims, like Catholics, like Jews, should be allowed to worship the way they wish. So why limit construction of mosques?

"What is important in Europe is to work for moderate Islam, for an Islam that is based on education, openness and freedom. The decision of the Swiss state will be to limit the activities of the worshipers.

"I don't think this is very helpful. This promotes the idea that we have a problem with Muslims. We don't have problem with Muslims. We have problem with Islamists, and Islamists and Muslims are two radical differences. And this kind of decision blurs the lines."

Asked if France's ban on the burka was not the same, Bigot answered, "A minaret is part of the mosque, and the Muslims go to the mosque if they are religious. A very small percentage of women wear the burka. And here we are talking about a very, very isolated minority among Muslims."

Asked if the burka ban was an infringement of religious freedom, Bigot replied that "religious freedom has to be combined with the duties of every citizen, and among the duties of every citizen - this is the French perception - there is kind of a minimum agreement of shared values, and among them is that every woman has the same rights as every man.

"And, as we know, the burka most times is imposed on women by men. So just from this perspective we don't think burka is appropriate. This is not a free act, it is an imposed situation placed on them."

Asked if the minaret ban could spread to other European countries, Bigot said that "the issue is different in France. The discussion we have is how do you finance the construction of mosques, and how do you create a national Islam.

"How much are we able to curb the influence of foreign countries on Islam in France. This we think is a valid debate, because we want a French Islam; we don't want an Islam that is importing values form parts of the world completely disconnected from European values."

Hegumen Filaret (Bulekov), a Moscow Patriarchate representative at the Council of Europe, voiced support for Switzerland's ban.

"Accusing Switzerland that it is somehow discriminating against the Islamic minority would be at least lopsided," Filaret told Interfax new service.

"The issue of minarets is not an issue of religious freedom, but it is an issue of political presence of people of a certain faith and ethnic background in a country. Taking into account a rapid rate of Islamization, visible signs of Muslims' presence would have, in particular, a political tint," he said.


______________________________

I have deleted this post from Current because of all the incredibly ugly hate-speech against Islam and Muslims and thread hijackings in many of the comments that were posted, and am re-posting it with a "clean slate". Sorry about all the good comments that are gone, hopefully those who posted these comments will do so again.
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174 comments // Jewish groups back Muslims on minaret ban

  • TheOuroborus
    • 0
      TheOuroborus  
    • TheOuroborus:

      Blah, blah, bling, bling, blah... You're replies are SOOOOOO unexpected. Oh wait...

      goodname - You're lack of history on the World Trade Center bombings (yes, plural) is nauseating. I lived in Brooklyn both times they were attacked you f#ck. The trail of ash and soot rained on my house for weeks. We couldn't find the sister of one of my employees for days who had worked there. Found her later in a triage center in Jersey. Don't lecture me on it.

      Oh, and didn't anyone teach you how to read? I said "street law" you idiot. There might be only 2 governments practicing it, but rules the lives of millions at ground level. I write a dissertation here on this one. Burkas in France to tribal massacres in the remote regions of Chad... it's all in the name of their law. Here's a good one for you:

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/chad-muslim-in-laws-seize-wife-kill-son-of-con...

      Street law, bro... street law.

      AlbyFlugzeug - Sad that you can only see the world through American eyes. Let me hip something to you... They're talking about Switzerland. Have you been there? I have. Your problem is typical of so many armchair automatons.

      I ain't a ring-winger guys. A tomato? Hell, I'd throw a shoe at Palin if I had the chance. This is a realist issue and until you've had a millennium of family in an alpine village supplanted by a foreign religio-culture, then shut the f#ck up.

      Ugh. Keep it coming.

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
  • TheOuroborus
  • CarolineS
    • 0
      CarolineS  

    • the last thing we need are reminders of how far we are all seperated in our minds due to religion and other things etc, im sorry, but they deserved the ban, all religions should be banned from building their grand buildings for worship, instead when there starving people in the world.

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • CarolineS:

      Who deserved the ban? The Swiss Muslims? For what reason? Those who are not of Swiss origin are for the most part second or third generation immigrants, naturalized Swiss, and totally integrated into the Swiss society. There are a great many mosques in Switzerland - and most of them are part and parcel of pre-existing buildings, not "grand religious edifices". There were no plans to build more mosques nor minarets except for one case in which the local authorities did not grant permission to build minarets - this law is totally pointless as it stands since it already was up to local authorities to accept or refuse the building of minarets, and was aimed precisely at discriminating against Islam and spreading irrational fears and hatred against Muslims.

    • 2 years ago
  • AlbyFlugzeug
    • 0
      AlbyFlugzeug  

    • Rabbi Dunner's remarks are the most positive. So were the Swiss Government's which publicly stated that the referendum would be unconstitutional attacking religious freedom. That is more than we get in the US about attacks to the Constitution which happen all the time here. The Supreme Court is asleep, and ADL does nothing.

      And ADL has no business commenting like they do criticizing Switzerland for the past. The US also passed anti-immigration legislation 100 yrs ago to limit Catholic and Jewish immigrants. And the KKK worked assiduously against those immigrants too!

      Today, legislation is being passed in AZ against Latinos, and the US mass media is being used by corporate owners to stir up hatred and discontent. ADL do nothing about that. The right-wing groups are whipped up in fear frenzy to vote the way they do. The Swiss right-wing are no exception. And party executives just like ADL's use the very same fear mongering techniques to raise support and funds. Easier to blame minorities for economic and social problems than blame the politicians and corporate power that put them where they are. Israeli filmmaker Yael Shamir's new film "Defamation" explains the way these systems work, and political industries of hate perpetuate.

      The point is stop the ability of parties to use fear and disinformation about minorities in the media. Teach citizens what real democracy is (although that would empower them to fight the corporations and politicians, which is why it was dropped at school in the first place). Then referendum like this one won't get passed.

    • 2 years ago
  • FallenMorgan
    • 0
      FallenMorgan  

    • Robidog, nobody is being an "apologist" for terrorism or extremism. That label has been thrown around by numerous members in the past, who spent all their time blasting people who disagree, and bashing Islam, Muslims, and to a lesser extent, Arabs.

      The apologists are the ones who back up the Swiss People's Party and their minaret ban. People who support this ban are apologists for Nazism and hate.

      We support religious freedom for everybody. Nobody is being an "apologist" for "evil."

    • 2 years ago
  • curtisreed
    • 0
      curtisreed  
    • FallenMorgan:

      FM, while I do agree wtih you that bans on scarves, minarets etc is antithetical to freedom, I take issue with your constant attempt to equate the over-reaction of Europeans to what they perceive as an invasive culture as "Nazism".

    • 2 years ago
  • FallenMorgan
    • 0
      FallenMorgan  

    • "Enough of this bullshit. Time for the lowdown on these cowardly apologists for evil."

      I'm very sorry we believe in religious freedom for everyone.

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  

    • Moderate Imams

      None of these issues has anything to do with minarets, which are generally built alongside Europe’s large urban mosques, where the imams are usually moderate establishment figures. Those imams who preach jihad don’t do it from minarets; they are laying low in store-front mosques, often on the run from the police.

      There are reasons to be concerned about Europe’s ability to integrate its Muslim citizens. But the subject is too important to be guided by religious stereotypes. The riots in France’s suburban ghettoes in 2005 were a testament to the failure of social policies, not to a resurgent Islam.

      Issues like minarets or the burqa -- the ominous-looking head-to-toe garment, worn by a small number of Muslim women, that is being targeted by French President Nicolas Sarkozy -- are beside the point. As an editorial in Le Monde said last week, the burqa, however offensive it may be to a woman’s dignity, is hardly a threat to secularism, the keystone of the French republic. According to a weirdly precise report by a French domestic intelligence agency, it is worn today by exactly 367 French women.

      Fear-Fueled Vote

      It is worth noting that the Swiss referendum against minarets was supported mostly by rural voters, whose fear of Islamic aggression comes more from ignorance than experience: it’s a safe bet that many have never seen a minaret, except on alarmist campaign posters where they are depicted as comic-book missiles.

      There is no excuse for stigmatizing any religion. That goes against the very values of tolerance Europe claims to stand for. It also marks a discouraging setback for the further integration of Muslim citizens, which has to be the goal of every European country. There is no other choice.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a6kHZEWw7yCo

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  

    • Minaret Threat Eclipsed by Swiss Intolerance: Celestine Bohlen

      Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- If it did nothing else (and it may end up getting knocked down in a European Court of Human Rights), Switzerland’s vote to ban the building of minarets drew attention to Europe’s identity crisis. The Swiss -- like the French, or the Germans, or the British for that matter -- are clearly worried about the Muslims living among them.

      Worry is one thing. It can be irrational, yet understandable. When people stoke those worries and turn them into fear, intolerance follows, and that is unacceptable.

      The Swiss vote has succeeded in shifting focus away from the social and economic problems of immigration, and toward religion. Putting the full weight of Europe’s cultural identity crisis on a slender piece of traditional architecture was both disingenuous and dangerous. Worse, it seems to be catching.

      Previous debates about the role of Islam in Europe involved issues other than religion. The 2004 French ban on head scarves in schools was about the submission of women; the 2005 publication of Danish cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad was about free speech.

      A minaret, by contrast, is no more and no less than a symbol. Other religious symbols draw protest -- a nativity scene in front of City Hall, say, or a cross on a mountaintop -- but they, unlike the minaret, are not part of a house of worship.

      Yet the minaret is being outlawed in the heart of Europe -- to scattered applause in neighboring countries.

      Four Minarets

      Somehow, an obscure referendum about Islamic architecture in a country of 7.8 million with just four minarets and 400,000 Muslims struck a nerve across Europe. That’s especially true in France, where politicians had been trying to manage a debate over “national identity,” and keep religion out of it. Now the cat is out of the bag.

      “It is a completely irrational issue, because a minaret can’t harm anyone, but it’s very rational politically, because it sells well for a certain electorate,” said Francois Heisbourg, director of the Foundation of Strategic Studies, a Paris-based research institute.

      Suddenly, people are expressing views that they once would have considered racist or intolerant. In a survey taken the day after the Swiss vote by Paris-based polling agency Ifop, 41 percent of French people questioned said they opposed the construction of mosques, up from 22 percent in 2001. On the question of building minarets, 46 percent were opposed.

      Zero-Sum Game

      There are an estimated 20 million Muslims among the European Union’s 500 million people, some of them native (mainly in the Balkans), many of them already second- or even third- generation in France, the U.K., and Germany. Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands, among others, have accepted more recent arrivals. Islam is now Europe’s second-biggest religion.

      One source of the fear of Muslims -- a theme that keeps coming up in print and in conversation -- is Europeans’ deep and complicated resentment of an unfamiliar, historically hostile religion that is perceived as a direct challenge to Christianity, Europe’s dominant faith.

      In this view, disputed by church leaders, the contest becomes a kind of atavistic zero-sum game. Why else would leaders from Italy’s xenophobic Northern League party propose to put a crucifix on the Italian flag?

      There are other explanations for the widespread unease with Islam: its association with jihad and terrorism; the demands by Muslims for special treatment, such as segregation by gender at public swimming pools; persistent illegal practices like polygamy; and a sense that some Muslims ignore, even repudiate, values that are at the core of European civilization, such as free speech and the separation of church and state.

      (continued below)

    • 2 years ago
  • goodname
    • 0
      goodname  

    • Sadly moonloon, i believe your over anylisng the purpose of a minaret
      "to send a message regarding the spread of their religion, thus encouraging more followers, and intimidating the local populance"

      A minaret is sort of like the muslim version of a steeple, in olden times someone would go to the top and recite the call to prayer, now they use sound systems. The reason minarets are tall is because back in those times, these people had to be heard throughout the city or community. Minarets in the western world seldom recite the call to prayer. Throughout the years they have however become a part of the architecture of a mosque, although they are not necessary or as you said "required". The situation in Nigeria is in my opinion a tragic one, and does not reflect real Islam

      "And give unto the orphans their property, and give them not the vile in exchange for the good, and devour not their property to your own property; verily, that were a great sin."
      -from the Koran
      lexicorient.com/e.o/texts/koran/koran004.htm

    • 2 years ago
  • MoonLoon
  • 02
    • 0
      02  

    • I was amazed to see this re-posted when it was just stopped. But I am more amazed to see it is in the headlines - and with very few comments.

      How did this miracle come to be?

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • 02:

      02 - no miracle - it got a great many views in a very short time (over 1,000 as I write), which is what propelled it up. Also, many people may have greenlighted it without leaving a comment. That's how it works.

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
  • MoonLoon
    • 0
      MoonLoon  

    • I assumed that the Swiss were concerned with Minarets dominating the skyline and sending a message to the World that Switzerland was becoming a Muslim country. I am also certain that this is the intent of the Muslim world when building Minarets in far flung corners of the globe. They want to send a message regarding the spread of their religion, thus encouraging more followers, and intimidating the local populance. A wealthy muslim in Nigeria has built a HUGE compund on Lekki Peninsula, maybe 30 acres with housing, apartments, Mosque, and the required Minarets. The local people squatting in shacks around the area refer to it as the house built with "blood money". I agree with them.

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
    • 0
      DRudeBoy  
    • MoonLoon:

      You obviously know nothing of Islam. The minarets are symbols of faith and piety, not intimidation and repression. The Muslims have a right to their place of worship, unscathed by the government.

    • 2 years ago
  • MoonLoon
    • 0
      MoonLoon  
    • MoonLoon:

      Yes, they represent faith and piety to Muslims. However, the faithful of other religions would not see them the same way. If the violent extremists, within the Muslim World continue to murder innocent people, the Minarets will become a Global symbol of cruelty.

    • 2 years ago
  • goodname
    • 0
      goodname  
    • MoonLoon:

      Sadly moonloon, i believe your over anylisng the purpose of a minaret
      "to send a message regarding the spread of their religion, thus encouraging more followers, and intimidating the local populance"

      A minaret is sort of like the muslim version of a steeple, in olden times someone would go to the top and recite the call to prayer, now they use sound systems. The reason minarets are tall is because back in those times, these people had to be heard throughout the city or community. Minarets in the western world seldom recite the call to prayer. Throughout the years they have however become a part of the architecture of a mosque, although they are not necessary or as you said "required". The situation in Nigeria is in my opinion a tragic one, and does not reflect real Islam

      "And give unto the orphans their property, and give them not the vile in exchange for the good, and devour not their property to your own property; verily, that were a great sin."
      -from the Koran
      lexicorient.com/e.o/texts/koran/koran004.htm

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
    • 0
      DRudeBoy  
    • MoonLoon:

      How about church bells and crosses?

      Are you suggesting that the entire Islamic community is responsible for the actions of a small minority of radicals and extremists?

    • 2 years ago
  • MoonLoon
  • Vierotchka
  • DRudeBoy
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • MoonLoon:

      Imagine the whole of Islam being one Mosque in one city. One or two of the members are going out and creating mayhem. When does it become the responsibility of the others, of the larger membership to stand up and grab the rascals by the shirt collar?
      When does the membership insure their position within the city at large by being responsible citizens?
      This is not a personal challenge - this is for you to get off by yourself and think about.

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
    • 0
      DRudeBoy  
    • MoonLoon:

      But is that really applicable to Islam? The Islamic community is varied and the larger mosques are usually very moderate. Their is no Islamic Church, Mosques operate independently.

    • 2 years ago
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • MoonLoon:

      I meant that: there is massive violence in the world - I hear very little in opposition from Islam. I am sure many if not most non-Muslims think the same thing - they do not hear the cry against it and they do not see the work that must be necessary to push the violent trends down - emerging from within the Islamic communities.
      It's almost as if everyone's saying "Oh, it's someone else doing all that - not us" It's the minority who no one knows anything about. Those other people.

      I just want to live my life. I don't want to go out and change the larger world that I am not connected with. So I understand - but hey, this world situation is bad.
      All these mosques are, in fact, connected as a group-community. Together, they are Islam, and could be a force for change. Where else is such change to spring?
      The world seems like a house-afire. All you hear is "fire" - I don't see people getting up and starting a movement.
      Like Martin Luther King got up and started a movement -a world changing movement. A wrong needed righting.
      There just seems an absence, a vacuum - of such effort.

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
    • 0
      DRudeBoy  
    • MoonLoon:

      Imams and Muslims speak out against terrorism quite a bit, just a year or so ago 5,000 Imams in India issued an anti-terror Fatwa, conflict is much more interesting news here. The situation is also made difficult by the fact that many Muslims want the West to acknowledge and stop its wrongs.

    • 2 years ago
  • artsychic
    • 0
      artsychic  
    • MoonLoon:

      If you knew anything about religion or religious architecture, you would know that Islam is a religion of peace and minarets are a necessity to its architecture, as is a steeple to a church. Maybe you should read the most basic and popular book on various religions--World's Religions by Huston Smith--because obviously you are ignorant to this subject, and need to read up on it.

    • 2 years ago
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • MoonLoon:

      I think that, after all this violence and the Jhadists and all the hackles raised as high as they can be pushed, it will take real committed effort to undo the very strongly running engine of war.
      The question has been asked repeatedly, when does the face-slapping stop? Is the idea to just keep fighting and blowing people up? Until when? What goal is to be achieved?
      Because, frankly, at some point it won't just be Minarets.
      If Islam is for peace, it has to be seen that way from without. From all non-Muslim eyes. Everyone has to see that the community of Islam is struggling against violence and for peace.
      I don't think the percentages of those for violence as opposed to those against are well understood by the non-Muslim peoples. We don't know if it's 1% or a tacitly wavering 60%. We just see more and more. More and more.
      If I were in that community, I would not be thinking it is simply an internal affair.

    • 2 years ago
  • buzzbee23
  • TheOuroborus
  • dcuisinot
    • 0
      dcuisinot  

    • Hey guys,

      I know many of you have strong opinions about this subject, but please remember to keep your comments on topic and free of personal attacks or any other remarks that violate community guidelines.

      Thanks,
      Danielle

    • 2 years ago
  • calm_incense
    • 0
      calm_incense  

    • "incredibly ugly hate-speech against Islam and Muslims"

      "Don't you DARE try to put a human face on Israel."

      -_-

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
  • calm_incense
  • Vierotchka
  • calm_incense
    • 0
      calm_incense  
    • calm_incense:

      You wrote that second quote and you know it - that is absolutely the kind of thing you have thought, written, and posted throughout that thread. You are a bald-faced liar. Shame on you.

      Usually I'd post a link backing up my claim; I reiterate, it's a shame you realized you couldn't offer decent rebuttals to those who took offense to your lazy and sleazy arguments (typically either blanket statements or ad hominem attacks), and therefore decided to save face by deleting the whole thread (even when it was already locked, thus rendering such action completely unnecessary, save for the attempt to block others from reading what had already been posted).

      Anyways, I long ago realized the pointlessness of conducting discussion with you, so if you're done, so am I. I usually don't single out individuals on the Internet, but your comments have been so utterly annoying in their thoughtlessness and hypocrisy that I couldn't help but call you out by name.

      I'll end simply by saying this:

      Jews think they are the victims, and Muslims think they are the victims. Each group believes it is *reacting*, not initiating. However, there is far more anti-Semitism spewed by Muslims than Islamophobia being practiced by Jews. The most prominent and vocal "Islamaphobes" tend to be non-Jewish, either American conservatives or European nationalists. And yet, who do the Muslims lash out at? Who are the ones whose home country's very existence is constantly being denounced by Muslims, and even by many non-Muslim Americans and Europeans? American and European conservatives are the ones propagating most of the antipathy for Muslims, but it is not they who bear the brunt of Muslim hatred.

      That would be the Jews. Thirteen million of them versus one billion Muslims, and then some. And yet Israel is still seen as the "big bully", despite being smaller than the state of New Jersey, less populous than freakin' Honduras, having a GDP less than that of Portugal, and having a GDP per-capita less than that of Cyprus. Never mind that Jewish civilians aren't blowing themselves up to intentionally kill women and children (not to mention men). No, they're all held accountable for the self-defense measures of their state government. Never mind that Arabs are never held accountable for the atrocities *their* state governments are responsible for, even when perpetuated among fellow Arabs.

      Nope, just the Jews. Those dirty, dirty Jews. If only we got rid of them, the Muslim world could *finally* live in peace.

      China exerting control over Kashmir, Xinjiang, and Tibet? Nope, only Israel's territorial claims are worth the anger. The governments of Myanmar and Iran cruelly oppressing millions of people? Nope, only Israel's government is worth the anger. The Sudanese military's massacring of half a million people? Nope, only Israel's military is worth the anger. Russia's skinheads committing violent acts of brutality upon immigrants from neighboring countries? Nope, only Israel's civilian population is worth the anger.

      Nope, just the Jews. As has been throughout history. As will always be. Go figure.

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
  • dcuisinot
    • 0
      dcuisinot  
    • calm_incense:

      Hey guys,

      Once again this discussion is getting off topic and focusing on the people discussing this issue rather the discussion itself. If this continues this entire thread will be locked to give everyone a chance to cool off and refocus on the topic.

      Thanks,
      Danielle

    • 2 years ago
  • DRudeBoy
  • calm_incense
    • 0
      calm_incense  
    • calm_incense:

      "Lies - your modus operandi is unworthy of a human being."

      Is it a lie that Jews think they are the victims?
      Is it a lie that Muslims think they are the victims?
      Is it a lie that each group believes it is *reacting*, not initiating?
      Is it a lie that the most prominent and vocal "Islamaphobes" tend to be non-Jewish?
      Is it a lie that Israel's very existence is constantly being denounced by Muslims?
      Is it a lie that there are thirteen million Jews?
      Is it a lie that there are one billion Muslims?
      Is it a lie that Israel is smaller than the state of New Jersey?
      Is it a lie that Israel is less populous than Honduras?
      Is it a lie that Israel has a GDP less than that of Portugal?
      Is it a lie that Israel has a GDP per-capita less than that of Cyprus?
      Is it a lie that Jewish civilians aren't blowing themselves up to intentionally kill innocent civilians?
      Is it a lie that Jewish civilians are constantly held accountable for the self-defense measures of their state government?
      Is it a lie that China exerts control over Kashmir, Xinjiang, and Tibet?
      Is it a lie that the governments of Myanmar and Iran cruelly oppressing millions of people?
      Is it a lie that the Sudanese military massacred half a million people?
      Is it a lie that Russia's skinheads commit violent acts of brutality upon immigrants from neighboring countries?

      You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.

      You would do well to incorporate SPECIFICITY into your posts, instead of making cop-out blanket statements and straight-up personal insults, such as the following:

      "What a load of putrid bollocks!"

      "Absolute bullshit."

      "That man is hatred and lies made flesh, he speaks like a Satanist. He is evil incarnate, and divorced from humanity."

      "You are a bald-faced liar. Shame on you."

      "Lies - your modus operandi is unworthy of a human being."

      "You are full of shit and lies. You are an insult to humanity."

    • 2 years ago
  • dcuisinot
    • +1
      dcuisinot  
    • calm_incense:

      Hi,

      This particular thread is no longer focusing on the topic and is getting very heated. I'm locking this temporarily so that those involved can take some time before adding to this discussion.

      -Danielle

    • 2 years ago
  • 02
  • goodname
  • robidog
  • Vierotchka
  • Progresshiv
  • thedirtman
    • 0
      thedirtman  
    • robidog:

      This is not clear. No one demands that we like everyone. What is demanded is the maintenance of order. That is why there is separation of church and state. Let people wear what they want to wear as long as it does not obstruct order. America's forefathers wanted it that way. If you want to say "I don't like the headdress" then fine - that much is expression. If you say "you can't wear a headdress" then fuck off - we do not share your call for morality.

    • 2 years ago
  • 02
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • robidog:

      I have just watched some of these. This guy's pretty good - who is he?

      Why would anyone waste their time with the "God" stuff? Why waste their time? Waste their time? Waste their time. W-a-s-t-e their time.

    • 2 years ago
  • calm_incense
    • 0
      calm_incense  
    • robidog:

      "incredibly ugly hate-speech"

      "That man is hatred and lies made flesh, he speaks like a Satanist. He is evil incarnate, and divorced from humanity."

      ...never in all my time on the Internet have I had to put so little effort into revealing someone's hypocrisy. -_-

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Walker
  • curtisreed
    • 0
      curtisreed  
    • robidog:

      yeah Chris, you are SO right!
      Not all Nazis killed Jews, so let's not jump to conclusions that Nazism was evil. It was just..."misunderstood"?

      No, I know, it was "hijacked" by a few "radicals". But really, Nazism was pretty good. Right?

      ***SARCASM***

      There are good Muslims, no doubt. But they are not running the show, are they?

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Walker
    • 0
      Chris_Walker  
    • robidog:

      You need to spend some time with both a modern Muslim American family and some time in the middle east bro....instead of making videos about matters you have know real knowledge about...your video is just spreading hate and fear of Islam...U should read the Qur'an

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Walker
    • 0
      Chris_Walker  
    • curtisreed:

      Your so deluded....your speaking in terms of absolutes and saying just because one person does something evil then it represents the whole community. if that was the case then I can say hey all Native American men are rapist, all blacks are criminals, all Americans are xenophobes, every white person belongs to the kkk, every German is a Nazi, all Irish people belong to the IRA, all Catholics are pedophiles ect ect ect... Now that would be terribly IGNORANT of me to generalize to that degree.

    • 1 year ago
  • Vierotchka
  • Ihatethemall
    • 0
      Ihatethemall  
    • Vierotchka:

      What I find somewhat amusing is .............I have deleted this post from Current because of all the incredibly ugly hate-speech against Islam and Muslims and thread hijackings in many of the comments that were posted, and am re-posting it with a "clean slate". Sorry about all the good comments that are gone, hopefully those who posted these comments will do so again...............and then you post a pic of a swastika.

    • 2 years ago
  • goodname
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • Vierotchka:

      I'm confused -you- terminated the (prior ugly discussion) and decided to start it with a clean slate?
      I noticed the whole thing taken from my account list.

      Why would any individual have that power? Who would think that is simply ok?
      It seems very much like a violation of the whole notion of open discussion.

      Do I get such power, if I decide so?

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • Vierotchka:

      Ihatethemall, I posted that picture because it underscores the fact that the Swiss People's Party admires Hitler and the Nazis.

      02 - no miracle - it got a great many views in a very short time, which is what propelled it up. Also, many people may have greenlighted it without leaving a comment. That's how it works.

    • 2 years ago
  • Ihatethemall
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • Vierotchka:

      I'm not sure about the green lighting, etc. That's how it works -
      Google said they do perfectly honest searches. Then they admitted they just put what they want up. (which is often what makes them money)
      This Current has consistently not worked the way it is stated. That's my experience.

    • 2 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  

    • First They Came - Pastor Martin Niemöller

      First they came for the Communists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Communist

      Then they came for the Socialists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Socialist

      Then they came for the trade unionists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a trade unionist

      Then they came for the Jews
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Jew

      Then they came for me
      And there was no one left
      To speak out for me

    • 2 years ago
  • grassroutes
  • Commentor
  • curtisreed
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • Vierotchka:

      Curtisreed, I posted that poem because the right-wing Swiss party is a Nazi-loving party, and because the right-wing in Europe is doing its damnedest to re-create the same anti-Semitic sentiments and actions against Islam as the Nazis created against the Jews. Holocaust survivors in Europe who lived through the rise of Nazi antisemitism in the thirties are saying the same thing - they are seeing this process start all over again, slowly but surely (just like the Nazis did), but against Islam and Muslims.

    • 2 years ago
  • FallenMorgan
    • 0
      FallenMorgan  

    • As the Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches stated, this referendum is not about minarets, but about the initiator's views on Muslims. It is nothing but hate.

      The hatred spreading through Europe reminds me of the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany that eventually led to the Holocaust. First, various rights were taken away - then they were forced to identify themselves as Jews and they were shoved into ghettos, where they lost their citizenship. Then finally, they were shipped to concentration camps in cattle cars, and systematically murdered.

      People like Geert Wilders hide behind the veil of freedom and democracy, when in reality they are Nazi bigots. And the Europe they hope to create is much like Germany in the 1940s.

      A lot of these sickos would celebrate if Muslims of the 21st Century end up facing the same hardships as Jews of the 20th. Like the perennial Islamophobes who show up on Current from time to time.

    • 2 years ago
  • curtisreed
    • 0
      curtisreed  
    • FallenMorgan:

      Wilders is NOT a "Nazi bigot". I hear as much hate-speech from you right now as I do from Geert. His argument is and has been that the teachings of Islam are antithetical to free societies. All you have to do is open your eyes to the constant threats of violence unless European societies bend to the will of Islam to see he's right.

      Just because some Muslims don't participate in those actions doesn't mean he's wrong. Since you get titilated by mentioning Nazism, let me point out that not all Nazis were involved in genocide, so would you argue that Nazism was NOT a hateful and violent belief system?

      All you have to do is read the Qu'ran to see why Wilders thinks what he does. And listen so many of the pracitioners confirms that belief.

      BUt of course, while democratic societies generally allow discussions around topics like this one, you--being a Muslim apologist--tend to try to silence the discussion by labeling anyone who disagrees with you as engaging in hate-speech. Sounds like mild-fascist tendencies bubbling up.

    • 2 years ago
  • samthesixth
    • 0
      samthesixth  
    • FallenMorgan:

      Fallen,

      You mentioned in previous postings that someday you would read the Koran. Have you done so yet? How is Geert Wilders a Nazi bigot? He uses the words from the Koran over pictures of violence perpetrated by Muslims. How does that make him a Nazi?

    • 2 years ago
  • lenhart
    • 0
      lenhart  

    • Thanks for reposting. And it is encouraging that Jewish groups have opposed a clearly discriminatory and arbitrary ban on what is --in fact --an architectural style. Opposition to it is based upon pure and blatant propaganda.

    • 2 years ago
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