Community | January 03, 2010 | 383 comments

Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084

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jefftego

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece#cid=...

Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”.

Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence.

The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year.

Dolphins have long been recognised as among the most intelligent of animals but many researchers had placed them below chimps, which some studies have found can reach the intelligence levels of three-year-old children. Recently, however, a series of behavioural studies has suggested that dolphins, especially species such as the bottlenose, could be the brighter of the two. The studies show how dolphins have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self and can think about the future.

It has also become clear that they are “cultural” animals, meaning that new types of behaviour can quickly be picked up by one dolphin from another.

In one study, Diana Reiss, professor of psychology at Hunter College, City University of New York, showed that bottlenose dolphins could recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts of their bodies, an ability that had been thought limited to humans and great apes.

In another, she found that captive animals also had the ability to learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Other research has shown dolphins can solve difficult problems, while those living in the wild co-operate in ways that imply complex social structures and a high level of emotional sophistication.

In one recent case, a dolphin rescued from the wild was taught to tail-walk while recuperating for three weeks in a dolphinarium in Australia.

After she was released, scientists were astonished to see the trick spreading among wild dolphins who had learnt it from the former captive.

There are many similar examples, such as the way dolphins living off Western Australia learnt to hold sponges over their snouts to protect themselves when searching for spiny fish on the ocean floor.

Such observations, along with others showing, for example, how dolphins could co-operate with military precision to round up shoals of fish to eat, have prompted questions about the brain structures that must underlie them.

When it comes to intelligence, however, brain size is less important than its size relative to the body.

What Marino and her colleagues found was that the cerebral cortex and neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that “the anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain”. They also found that the brain cortex of dolphins such as the bottlenose had the same convoluted folds that are strongly linked with human intelligence.

Such folds increase the volume of the cortex and the ability of brain cells to interconnect with each other. “Despite evolving along a different neuroanatomical trajectory to humans, cetacean brains have several features that are correlated with complex intelligence,” Marino said.

Marino and Reiss will present their findings at a conference in San Diego, California, next month, concluding that the new evidence about dolphin intelligence makes it morally repugnant to mistreat them.

Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, who has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, will speak at the same conference.

“The scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are ‘non-human persons’ who qualify for moral standing as individuals,” he said.
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  2. tags:
    Animal Rights,  Dolphins,  bottlenose dolphins
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383 comments // Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

  • Diarmuid_Lynch
  • Sean_Sultan
    • +2
      Sean_Sultan  
    • cr00kshanks:

      I think eating meat, in the past, was necessary and rarely viewed as an evil. However, cannibalism while sometimes necessary was and is never acceptable. Many philosophers and scientists have felt the need to answer why and explore the issue. Ultimately, the defining rational was that animals are not human (though it is now recognized that humans are animals). So then the question became: what is human? To the scientific community the most defining factor is intelligence. So, if something has the ability to have an intelligence which is comparable to humans it implies that, at least to the scientific community, it has to be recognize as human. Or comparable to human. Killing is necessary for life, this should never be ignored. You have to kill in order to exist or you would have died of disease before birth. The reason this is important is to decide when killing is necessary and acceptable and when it might be necessary but completely unacceptable.

    • 2 years ago
  • Dmerza1989
    • +3
      Dmerza1989  
    • EthicalVegan:

      What about if they died naturally or by accident?
      I am not a huge meat eater myself, if you eat deer and you accidentally hit one and its dead or its in so much obvious pain the most ethical and compassionate thing to do is to kill it . Wouldn't it then be almost a disservice to leave it on the side of the road?
      I agree with how the Native Americans, used animals, they made sure to use as much as possible out of respect, because they did need animals for their survival and they did not know any better. Do you agree with that view?

    • 2 years ago
  • EthicalVegan
  • Dmerza1989
  • kamos
    • kamos [removed]  
    • This comment was removed as a violation of community guidelines.
  • EthicalVegan
  • sailshamas
    • +2
      sailshamas  

    • “We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth.”
      donsgal
      Henry Beston

    • 2 years ago
  • SimonH182
    • +3
      SimonH182  

    • I think this sort of thing is inevitable. Where non-human entities gain rights, including citizenship and such. Really, it's more of a question of if artificial intelligence, extraterrestrials, or "lesser" animals on our planet that get the treatment first.

      @ Timothy_Riches - Learning to communicate with dolphins may be interesting. They may bring unique perspectives, if they have the capacity to learn mathematics and science as we understand the concepts, and it is essential if a dolphin, earning their rights to live in our society, are to hold jobs (paying ones!) and communicate their desires on how to spend it.

      @ Baby blue rocs - it is "mean" to eat a dolphin if you consider them your equals, same goes for pigs, cows, dogs, humans, and anything else under the sun. It's all about perspective, and opinion, as much of Ethics is to begin with.

      @Ethical Vegan - I must admit, I admire you're position on eating only plants. I am an omnivore, though, and was born able to consume both plants and meats. It is what I'm made to eat, so I eat both. There are some animals in the animal kingdom that eat other animals, do you consider them mean? Nature is what nature does.

    • 2 years ago
  • EthicalVegan
    • +1
      EthicalVegan  
    • SimonH182:

      Hi! Never used the word "mean." And I'm sure as hell smart enough (and old enough) to know that nature is nature. So -- for ME -- I choose not to exploit any and all sentient beings as much as possible. I am vegan because I'VE chosen to be vegan.

      If you read up on the "history" of human bodies, you'll see that it's possible you may be incorrect about your being an omnivore (certainly from a dental standpoint).

      Nonetheless, you eat our animals, and I will continue NOT to eat our animals.

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Boccia
  • Timothy_Riches
    • +1
      Timothy_Riches  

    • If I could choose one area of study that has the most potential for positively changing how humanity sees itself it would be facilitated communication between dolphins and humans. Think of the possibilities!

    • 2 years ago
  • babybluerocs
    • 0
      babybluerocs  

    • it is being mean to eat a dolphin but do you not care about pigs or chickes or turkeys, they have a life to i mean, to some place we probably are freaks that eat animals they don't eat and they think eating a dolphin is alright. i guess you just shouldn't eat any animal then beacause somewhere will think its animal cruelty

    • 2 years ago
  • EthicalVegan
    • 0
      EthicalVegan  
    • babybluerocs:

      To whom are you asking your questions, addressing your comments?

      I am a vegan, so I care about ALL animals (from the tiniest to the biggest).

      You end with this: "i guess you just shouldn't eat any animal then beacause somewhere will think its animal cruelty"

      It IS animal cruelty. There's no "thinking" about it. It's animal exploitation, abuse, and cruelty.

      Not really sure where you were intending to go with your comment(s), unless it was simply to suggest that no humans eat any other beings, no matter what.

    • 2 years ago
  • aflady
  • ruhige
    • 0
      ruhige  
    • EthicalVegan:

      Plants are living beings too, the last time I remembered.

      Then, if I would not eat the "lesser" species of our Earth, I would not eat anything.

      So I eat what I was born into.

      Nature is nature. Animals eat each other. And with this new, recent findings, I think we are nothing more than animals having a better intelligence.

    • 2 years ago
  • treewolf39
  • EthicalVegan
  • EthicalVegan
  • Ayla_Holthaus
    • 0
      Ayla_Holthaus  
    • aflady:

      I think it's more of the though of eating something that has been abused and used. It would be natural to go catch one thing or two to eat but when animals are being treated like produces (like sodas or chips) being over produced and over used; it's a little stupid. I think that a lot of people that agree with better treatment of animals are also looking out for humanity. That's why the obesity rates are so high. We eat too damn much!

    • 2 years ago
  • Ayla_Holthaus
  • Chris_Boccia
    • 0
      Chris_Boccia  
    • EthicalVegan:

      this is just kind of a random question thing, but kind of based off what you said about caring about all animals. what is your stance on eating mushrooms? mushrooms aren't plants, and are actually more closely related to humans than plants, as i remember from bio 101 back in the day.

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Boccia
  • conclusius
  • Ayla_Holthaus
  • marckk13
    • +4
      marckk13  

    • Just do it for science. No big deal, don't eat dolphin.

      Think about this, if the dolphin can reach the intelligence of a three year old, isn't that just like eating a three year old kid?

    • 2 years ago
  • Barolo
    • +1
      Barolo  
    • marckk13:

      You realise that your rule about not eating anything that has the same level of intelligence as a three year old limits you to eating pidgeons? You have severely underestimated the intelligence of animals.

    • 2 years ago
  • mybodymyright
  • marckk13
    • 0
      marckk13  
    • Barolo:

      Yes, my simile to compare the two definitely means that we're limited to eating pigeons... Oh wait: Shrimp, fish, clam, ALL PLANTS, chickens, turkeys, cows etc.

      I appreciate the... attempt?

    • 2 years ago
  • Chris_Boccia
  • Aryel_Knoles
    • +6
      Aryel_Knoles  

    • what is the point of getting in an argument about this? yes humans are animals. to the person who asked if carrots were sentients...i am very sorry but carrots don't have brains, i mean really? why do so many people think they are smarter than science? its stupid. there are facts that are undeniable like the fact that dolphins can feel emotion just as well as humans. they have been known to commit suicide after a mate dies or tragedy in there lives.

      reading this article i was so happy, can you just take a second and realize that dolphins can master basic language...you could talk to a dolphin! that is incredible. i for one have never talked to a carrot. just accept that there are other things on this planet than humans and evolution is allowing other animals to start catching up. while we are killing our own species they are evolving. get over it or embrace it because it is utterly amazing

    • 2 years ago
  • EthicalVegan
  • ruhige
  • Justforthiscomment
    • -1
      Justforthiscomment  

    • To start I would like to say, I don't advocate the killing of an animal just "for kicks" as I feel that is just wrong and wasteful. However, if you were to walk up to me and give me a moral lecture for killing and eating a dolphin when you don't do the same for one who eats a pig, worm, dog, cat, cow etc, then I would call you a hypocrite. Why stop there, what about plant life? If you are going to say don't eat animal life then why are you saying plant life is any better to kill? It is funny how everyone is saying that we are just animals and yet it is only animals "LIKE US" that we protect, if we said the same about race we would be racist, but if animals are close to us and we are prejudiced then that is ok? So plant life is a different type of life, why not cherish it as well?

      If you are going to go so far as to say we are just animals and other life is AS important, then logically, you should avoid eating anything alive. Even if this leads to your own death at least, morally, you have done your job as thousands of lifeforms will survive (and actually thrive) from your not eating them (and them eating you afterwards).

    • 3 years ago
  • calm_incense
    • +1
      calm_incense  
    • Justforthiscomment:

      I bet you think you're *real* clever, don't you?

      Idiot.

      The bottom line is whether or not the organism is capable of experiencing pain.

      Is it sentient? Does it have a central nervous system? Pain receptors?

      I don't give a damn whether or not it's "alive".

      People who bring up plants as a "counterargument" misinterpret the reason for opposing animal cruelty in the first place.

      Oh, and people don't complain about dogs, cats, and cows being abused?

      Are you fucking retarded?

    • 3 years ago
  • Justforthiscomment
    • 0
      Justforthiscomment  
    • calm_incense:

      Wow, thank you for being so rude, I appreciate it.

      I know that I was using many hyperboles in my argument but it was to make a point. Was I making it against you? Maybe not, it was against people who just yell at the top of their lungs without at least contemplating the other side of the coin.

      We aren't talking about "abusing" an animal. I agree, animal abuse is horrible. I would not hesitate to scold someone kicking an animal or even get involved physically to stop them. We are talking about the right to eat an animal or not. Now I believe that there are two possible ways to see it:

      1- Humans are special creatures, sentient we are not just "animals", there is something about us which sets us apart. You claim dolphins are too, well perhaps they are and if they truly are special as well then there is a very good argument that they should not be eaten. But does that mean we should not eat a creature like a worm? Do you know for a fact it is not sentient. Do you know that a carrot isn't sentient? What proof do you have for this. All I am saying is that there are certain things that we cannot know, and our understanding of the universe is biased, like it or not. However, when we see signs pointing to a good possibility of an animal being sentient I guess we should abstain from hurting that animal

      2- Humans are simple animals, nothing special about us at all, nothing sets us apart really from any other animal. I find in this case that using an argument such as "we should not eat dolphins" makes no sense. In this case eating anything is justifiable as there is no standard on which to base the merit of one lifeform to another.

      On a side note I find it quite odd how we categorize life and sentient beings. We see something being self aware only be comparing it to us, which is pretty egotistical. How are we to know that plant life, which seems to respond to changes in nature much better than animals, isn't a truer form of what a superior being is?

      Calm incense I fail to see what your own personal view point is. If you'd like to send me a private message and we can discuss this further, I'd like to hear some of your ideas, of course if you are just going to slander me then please don't.

    • 3 years ago
  • fauxsherrrr
  • jefftego
  • RodneyE
    • 0
      RodneyE  

    • Dolphins need to be protected to the fullest extent. It is terrible what the bastards in Japan are doing to these itelligent creatures. For those that do not know what i am talking about, In Japna there is a place called Taiji. in Taiji they capture torture and slaughter the dolphins. If interested in learning more one should consult the papers and of course I strongly encourage everyone see the doncumentary "The Cove." It was great and it truely got me more interested in the ocean and preserving its natural beauty!
      -Rodney E

    • 3 years ago
  • yaget1chance
    • 0
      yaget1chance  

    • One thing I have always thought is: Dolphins can learn to do what we ask them to do and learn to perform many human type tasks....we have yet, without mechanized help, been able to learn their commands..we can only theorize and guess.

    • 3 years ago
  • thereisnochaos
    • +1
      thereisnochaos  

    • If you followed the arguments that these scientists are making to their logical conclusion, all animals would be treated as non-human persons. Basically, should just be like the Na'vi.

    • 3 years ago
  • Animal_Chin
    • +1
      Animal_Chin  

    • Yes, we must force the dolphins to assimilate to Western culture. Soon all young dolphins will be forced into the public school system where we will teach them that their ancestors were nothing more than savages. After years of debasing and belittling the dolphins native culture, they will finally give in to their new corporate masters and build ocean floor casinos. Before long we will have plenty of dolphins in the work place obeying orders, paying taxes, getting fat at McDonald's, and joining the military in order to die for the corporate interests that enslaved their ancestors!

      Er... Wait a minute... I'm thinking of Avatar...

    • 3 years ago
  • EdJoyProductions
  • mindcruzer
  • calm_incense
  • mindcruzer
  • calm_incense
    • 0
      calm_incense  
    • mindcruzer:

      "For those people who now have sufficient food to feed themselves, what keeps them from reproducing? Nothing, obviously. And so, more people, again not enough food, and the problem is perpetuated. Those who struggle to feed every starving individual in the world are actually making the problem worse rather than bringing it to an end. Now your population is growing exponentially"

      The most well-fed countries grow least; the least well-fed countries grow most.

    • 3 years ago
  • calm_incense
  • kitteneater
  • tenletters
  • twodee
  • EdJoyProductions
  • Davidod
    • 0
      Davidod  
    • Image

    • People are animals, too: who knew? :)

      FWIW, here's a National Geographic documentary that reveals how dolphins are not the innocent peace-loving cute animals that some of you seem to believe them to be:

      http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/dolphins_the_wild_side/

      Just because they are wild animals is not an excuse to allow supposedly 'superior' humans to destroy their habitat, or use them for entertainment purposes. We have much we can learn from our fellow travelers on this tiny blue ball, humans and non-humans alike....

    • 3 years ago
  • nightmonkey
  • FlatCat
    • -3
      FlatCat  

    • Well they better get themselves a whole lot smarter quick cause I can kill em' with six pack plastic toxic goo tuna nets and the good old fashioned hook on a string.I say a tin of dolphin while Im out clubbing only the cutest of baby seals makes a refreshing day ender.

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
    • 0
      sedgleyoss  

    • Oh sorry Mrs. Gross I have seen the many comments in which you insult people. I made one mistake while I was commenting. I love how one screw up makes it so all credibility is lost on this site. How about this? Many scientists want to reclassify the Bonobo and chimpanzee as Homo paniscus, Homo sylvestris, or Homo arboreus as their DNA is 98% similar to human beings (the other scientists think that the genus homo is incorrect and that humans should be reclassified as Pan sapiens which would be in the same genus as the bonobo and chimp). That means that all of your comments regarding apes will be wrong in a few years. It sucks that people comment so much as to how others are so stupid yet they don't research the topic they are so passionate about. (so in a few years according to your logic will you then be the stupidest person on current?). By the way I know chimps are apes. I was using the term monkey as a interchangeable word. While this was incorrect and my response to you was as well (mainly to get a rise out of you and see how ridiculous you actually are) there is no need to overreact in such an irrational manner.

      oh and here is an article about monkeys who select specific tools so I may appease you. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/39930/title/Capuchin_monkeys_choose_t...

    • 3 years ago
  • smallgod
    • 0
      smallgod  

    • Ms. Gross (ironic?), you have nothing to say but nasty personal attacks. The bonobo is under consideration for reclassification, not that this even matters, so your little 'point' is soon to be wrong and baseless again. I don't know why you feel the need to act like a bitch on its period (as in a lady dog, and the ludicrous way it acts when menstruating. I'm not 'calling you a bitch', per se), but apparently you do. Your logo image with your arms crossed is a classic representation of unapproachability and malice, and is a stance one is taught to avoid in business lest one be considered as such. Your attitude is unwarranted, absurd, emotional, and extremely childish. If I were you I would feel ashamed, but considering how grossly (fitting?) unapproachable and irrational you have demonstrated yourself to be, I'm sure that won't happen. If this is how you act to people off of the internet, with your half-baked emotional thoughts and internet-researched half-truths, God bless you and the hard life you no doubt have.

    • 3 years ago
  • Lucretia_Gross
    • 0
      Lucretia_Gross  

    • Sedgleyoss is a moron. I don't usually say things like this on open source social media outlets, but he sent me this message privately after I ridiculed him for not knowing the difference between a monkey and an ape:

      "I was referring to the bonobo monkey. It is not an ape. Look up your animals and don't make such silly assumptions."

      I then had to correct this person...AGAIN...because the Bonobo "monkey" isn't a monkey either. It's also an ape. It used to be called a Pygmy Chimpanzee. Clearly this person is a moron and we shouldn't be wasting our time trying to argue with an uneducated fool.

    • 3 years ago
  • idontlikehim
    • 0
      idontlikehim  

    • sedgleyoss,

      You are the king or queen of misunderstanding other people's perspectives.

      I registered just to tell you that i don't think you are a very valuable human if you carry this trend into your everyday life.

      "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle.

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
    • -1
      sedgleyoss  
    • idontlikehim:

      I don't disagree with saving dolphins. I simply disagree with their intelligence levels. If anything they are similar to an ape not a human. Why single me out? I did not compare the holocaust and Native American suffering to that of dolphins. I did entertain the thoughts of others especially sensible people like jef to the point of my companies donating money to the cause. I am also probably the only one who disagreed with the subject who actually watched the cove in full and changed my opinions as far as the killing methods and captivity of dolphins. The mark of intelligence is not blindly agreeing with everyone's thoughts nor is it to register on a website to denounce the value of a human life. You are seriously intense.

      You're right. I don't get the perspective of comparing the holocaust to dolphin hunting. The holocaust looked much worse to me than that video shown in the cove. I don't get how people compare animals to humans as far as intelligence. I don't get why people want to fawn over and save only dolphins while other intelligent animals such as parrots and monkeys (apes I don't wanna piss off gross) are also eaten and caged.

      The funniest thing about this whole thing is that you disagree with me on one topic. There are probably millions of other topics you and I and many others would agree with. However, I touched on something that you are passionate about. Instead of commenting and providing any information as to what concerned you, you just made an irrational statement.

      You registered to comment on me? I love your handle I will remember myself every time I see it :) That makes me feel awesome (I feel like I already have my own little Colbert nation) and it makes me feel like you have a lot of time on your hands.

      I'm the worthless human? "I registered just to tell you that i don't think you are a very valuable human if you carry this trend into your everyday life" I didn't register on a website to be an asshole :)

    • 3 years ago
  • underthebus
  • Davidod
  • maisry
    • 0
      maisry  

    • Of course, dolphins are persons! On a much lower intelligence level are the 3 feline persons I live. Any pet or horse owner, or anyone who has raised an animal knows they are persons.

    • 3 years ago
  • jac1992
    • 0
      jac1992  

    • Does this mean if you eat dolphin (I haven't but I have been told its very tasty) does that mean you are a a canibal?

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • conclusius
    • -1
      conclusius  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      you have to be kidding. I'm not one for animal cruelty, and I guess after reading this article, I won't really be eating any dolphin, but come on. humans have opposable thumbs and highly developed vocal chords for a reason. I suppose the only reason dolphins haven't created a consumerist culture or a television is because they realize it's silly?

      you said in another post that other animals have the ability to love. how can that really be? love is a word humans apply to an incredibly abstract feeling, and in a modern world of sex changes and gender ambiguity, that word is becoming more complicated.

      I dunno. my point is, once dolphins start organizing their own spoken word poetry and some form of communication that's accessible to humanity, then I'll really start to ponder the idea of a "non-human person."

    • 3 years ago
  • conclusius
  • pandaman2105
    • +2
      pandaman2105  

    • wow...there's a lot to respond to on this story.

      to put it simply, they are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, INTELLIGENT. why do they have to speak our words or use a spear to prove it? they have their own complex way of surviving, so do we, like cooking food and wearing clothes. they're different from humans in a lot of ways, but they are similar too, like with communication. who says there has to be a vocal language for us to realize it?

      also, dolphins should not be in captivity. would we put any of our own in a cage to be looked at anymore these days? I don't think so.
      yes, we had the time of side-shows, but i'm talking about now, in our time of more communication and ethical awareness. dolphins have come to that point in their existence, but i'm sure it will take a while before it is acknowledged completely by those who want them to "entertain".

    • 3 years ago
  • marckk13
  • bethopea
    • 0
      bethopea  

    • in the water humans would be so limited - no form or writing, no welding...I could see a hinderance of verbal and industrial growth. this would mean less garbage and more appreciation of nature yet less productivity i should think.
      just saying that if dolphins were land bound they would have a much higher competition between humans.

    • 3 years ago
  • TasteHi
    • 0
      TasteHi  

    • I don't think "entertaining the audiences" is ever a justification for imprisonment or the cruel and unusual punishment of any living being. That being said...
      I don't know exactly how some "aquatic circuses" operate in the training of animals but the 1 I have visited seemed to be trained by students that had very nurturing bonds with the marine animals. Apparently the aquarium is just a rehab center and when some animals have become dependent on being fed by hand they just aren't released back into the wild.

      I think the most heinous thing I've seen is the treatment of land mammals in circuses like Ringling Brothers they really treat those elephants like they posses no emotion what so ever...very sad, I don't recommend clicking this link if you have a soft spot for smart trusting mammals :
      https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=235...

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  

    • I love Penn and Teller, but I read that episode somewhat differently. The bullshit I found was in the people who semi-worshiped the dolphins, or made money from exploiting the idea of dolphins being intelligent, even spiritual creatures- the bullshit falls on the heads of the humans, not the dolphins.

    • 3 years ago
  • EdJoyProductions
    • 0
      EdJoyProductions  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Agreed. The stunning part of that episode was people that offered dolphin assisted human birth. That was a dangerous and crazy practice that needed to be exposed. Those exploiters not only wanted to put a mother in child in danger for the sake of novelty but did not even take into consideration that the blood involved might attract sharks.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • Trauzer
    • 0
      Trauzer  

    • Ahhh... this reminds me of the Dolphin episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! And how Dr. John C.Lilly conceived of the Cetacean Nation while openly experimenting with LSD. I can't say I agree with treating them as "non-human persons." I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm just saying I'd need more convincing beyond this article and the slue of comments here to sell me on this idea.

    • 3 years ago
  • AmbeIdrew
    • -1
      AmbeIdrew  

    • Intelligence is not the basis of the uniqueness of human beings. Humans are unique creatures and are set apart from non-humans in many ways.
      Humans are moral creatures, meaning that we have a inner sense of right and wrong (unfortunately we often chose to do wrong). We also have an ability to reason and think logically and learn that sets us apart from non-humans. Animals sometimes exhibit remarkable behavior in solving mazes or working out problems in the physical world, but they certainly do not engage in abstract reasoning—there is no such thing as the "history of dolphin philosophy," for example, nor is there any evidence that non-humans have developed at all in their understanding of ethical problems or use of philosophical concepts.
      Our use of complex, abstract language sets us far apart from non-humans. I could tell my son, when he was four years old, to go and get the little, black wrench from my toolbox in the basement. Even if he had never seen it before, he could easily perform the task because he knew meanings of "go," "get," "little," "black," "wrench," "toolbox," and "basement." He could have done the same for any of dozens of other items that he perhaps had never seen before but could visualize when I described them in a few brief words.
      Another mental difference between humans and non-humans is that we have an awareness of the distant future, even an inward sense that we will live beyond the time of our physical death, a sense that gives many people a desire to attempt to be right with God before they die.
      Creativity is also unique to humans in areas such as art, music, and literature, and in scientific and technological inventiveness. It is no surprise that non-humans are not doing a scientific study of humans.
      I expect that some will respond by saying that I am evaluating non-humans based on human perspective. Exactly. That is the point.

    • 3 years ago
  • Mark701
    • 0
      Mark701  
    • AmbeIdrew:

      All valid comments. However, you are talking about modern man. I doubt our ancestors i.e. apes and/or ape like creatures possessed any of the attributes you discussed. Man didn't even have a written language (Rigvedic Sanskrit ) until around 1500 BCE. Humanoid skulls have been found that date back 3.5 million years. It would be interesting to compare their abilities and intelligence at that stage to those of dolphins. My point is that species evolve, and given enough time what we consider to be a creature with relatively low intelligence and abilities could evolve into a species that ultimately ends up being more successful than our own.

    • 3 years ago
  • AmbeIdrew
    • 0
      AmbeIdrew  
    • AmbeIdrew:

      You bring up an interesting point regarding language. The limits of extant written records, however, are not proof that there ever was a time when man did not speak. The idea that our ancestors did not speak is an unprovable hypothesis. Extant written records provide no basis on which to conclude that man is becoming basically more intelligent. Written records instead provide a basis for arguing against a process of evolving from less intelligent to more intelligent.

    • 3 years ago
  • Mark701
    • 0
      Mark701  

    • We may be looking at the species that will take our place after we've eliminated ourselves through global warming,war, famine etc. In 20-30 millions years or so a dolphin might even land on the moon if they can survive our killing them.

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
    • 0
      sedgleyoss  
    • Mark701:

      Global warming would kill them too. Actually it would kill them especially. You are right though. In that long dolphins and monkeys could evolve to do the same as humans. Imagine the in between species and how we would react. That would suck.

    • 3 years ago
  • Manatee_man
  • treewolf39
  • Manatee_man
    • 0
      Manatee_man  

    • Dolphins are way smarter than humans. They may lack High intelligence like humans, I never see dolphins seggagate each other because other dolphins are different or because they come from a different ocean. So if We're so smart, why do we hate each other so much, we should know by now that Racism is bad by now. The Dolphins understand that Racism is bad, so why don't we be like them and just swim around and by nice to each other?

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
  • Davidod
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • +1
      DeliaTheArtist  

    • But humans ARE animals! The distinction we make between us and everything else is in our heads...I'm not saying humans aren't the dominant species. We are in practically every way except for the category of numbers, in which I think ants have us beat - but at some point we have to recognize that some of the characteristics we attribute to humans - self awareness, societal influence, thought process, love, etc, are shared by many other species on the planet. Dolphins are an amazing example of highly intelligent animals who plan for the future, have societies and show emotions for each other.

    • 3 years ago
  • Nephwrack
  • Lucretia_Gross
  • Terry_O_Connor
    • 0
      Terry_O_Connor  

    • Ouch, talk about a backhanded compliment. "You're the most intelligent known species of life form on this planet after G.W Bush, Paris Hilton and that Terry Ó Connor guy"

      LOL,

    • 3 years ago
  • TenaciousZ
  • TenaciousZ
  • sedgleyoss
  • Varex_Sythe
  • sedgleyoss
    • 0
      sedgleyoss  

    • Are you comparing dolphins then to individuals with disabilities? I don't get any of your analogies as they do not relate to the situation at hand and as you must emotionally charge every argument you have. Dolphins are not people. They should not be tortured but they should also not be valued in the same way a human is. Dolphins have done nothing for you and instead you decide to forget a species which has changed the world. I get mad because you idiots don't know much about other animals and not even all that much about the animal you defend. Other animals are as smart or smarter so why do you focus on these creatures? Maybe because they are cute :) Do you know why many of the founders of greenpeace have left? Because these ideas are outdated and stupid. Animals feel but they do not have complex emotions relating to forms of jealousy, wonder, and passion. When an animal paints a full painting or writes a poem we will talk.

      People who are disabled or mentally challenged are still far more superior to animals (*now you are comparing these people to animals?! wtf?!). They are still having more complex thoughts and performing more complex behaviors. A person in a coma is having more complex dreams then a dolphin when lucid.

    • 3 years ago
  • crob80227
    • 0
      crob80227  
    • sedgleyoss:

      So now you know what a person is a coma is dreaming and you also know what a dolphin dreams?

      And you know this how...?

      And my comparison is correct because your entire definition of what constitutes a "human" begins and ends with tool-use and language.

      So if a human cannot speak (learning disabled) and cannot manipulate tools (physically and/or mentally handicapped) then by YOUR definition then are no longer human.

      The problem is you have a very, very poor/limited defintion of what lifeforms can be human.

      I'm merely pointing out how flawed your very, very narrow defintion of "human" is because many disabled people would not be classified as human under it.

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
    • 0
      sedgleyoss  
    • sedgleyoss:

      It is your definition that animals are comparable to humans. It is not mine. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. You compared the holocaust to animal suffering. Nothing left to say when stupid comments like this are posted by individuals like you.

    • 3 years ago
  • jfill
  • s_peak
    • 0
      s_peak  

    • Humans are already slaves to the ruling classes. Let's not give ourselves too much credit. We are NOT competent enough to be elevated about animals on the scale of intelligence as far as I'm concerned. We have no morality and compassion. Dolphins actually have us beat in this respect.

    • 3 years ago
  • Davidod
    • 0
      Davidod  

    • Anyone who says dolphins are fish is automatically dismissed as a clown, with little to add to a discussion where the topic at hand IS dolphins (they are mammals, if you know what that word means).

      Anyway, the idea of granting legal rights to dolphins is just more anthropocentric auto-stimulation by an egocentric group of hominids. Worse, it's rather pointless and hypocritical, since we don't even care about granting basic human rights to fellow humans. Millions die due to starvation, wars, greed, etc, but it's not MY tribe dying, so not MY problem.

      As far as using human intelligence as the guide-line by which humans decide which animals deserve greater rights, here's another example of how humans are so biased by our view of what is worthy that we define intelligence only in our terms, trying to encourage the survival of animals made in our image.

      I've always thought it was the height of hubris to think that man's definition of intelligence is the ONLY one that matters (and from a practical standpoint, it IS, as we're the dominant species at the time). Much as my dog has no capability to understand the principles of the internal combustion engine that powers the pick-up truck that he's riding in, humans would be fools to think there's not concepts that are simply beyond the realm of human's ability to comprehend, the brain's ability to fathom.

      BTW, it's not 'survival of the fittest' per se, but survival of the species best-adapted to their specific environment. Sharks are incredibly adapted to THEIR environment, after given millions of years to adapt. As are the fish they eat, as well: otherwise, the fish species wouldn't be around to be eaten, right?

      Someone mentioned the ability to use tools as evidence of greater intelligence, but dolphins and sharks have survived quite well in an environment where they don't NEED external tools to eat. In fact, some species of whales use high-energy bursts of their sonar to stun and disorient their prey, after using the same ability to echo-locate. No batteries needed; they ARE their own tool.

      Here's a skill that dolphins have developed that was recently undocumented by humans, and doesn't even have a word in Humanese: their ability to manipulate water, described by most as blowing bubbles.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuVgXJ55G6Y

      My guess is it's a by-product of their familiarity of living in the water column, as well as practice for hunting, play, etc. I'm guessing it's a bit like how man's ability to juggle isn't done for survival purposes per se (street performer excepted), but as a side effect of man's manual dexterity. I think of it as rostrum dexterity. :)

      And those who believe dolphins are peace-loving animals, realize dolphin society includes some rather unpleasant activities the equivalent of gang warfare, with killing, fights over territory, etc.

    • 3 years ago
  • sedgleyoss
    • 0
      sedgleyoss  
    • Davidod:

      Dolphin society?? What religion does this society have? What laws? And everyone knows dolphins are mammals. People referred to them as fish in order to get the reaction you just gave.

    • 3 years ago
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