we can start by not using healthcare reform as a ruse to give government total power over the populace.
We can then institute legislation that will actually do something to reform the few problems with healthcare costs and competition. In other words we could use a little common sense.

TO Saladin: Thank you! Now if JohnA would shut off his tape machine about paying his taxes for everyone's healthcare we'd be halfway to the Tea Party in Boston. I said I wouldn't respond to some people, but his incessant comments about his paying taxes is getting old. Maybe his useless tax money could be used to pave his own driveway or something material and priceless to himself since he's not worried about anyone else. TO JohnA: Have a Happy New Year! anyway!

Maybe if you grew up, become self-reliant, get a job, and join those of us who pay taxes, instead of expecting the government to blow your nose and wipe your ass, you might feel differently.

The notion that there is any significant fraction of our population that does not wish to work towards being independent, safe, healthy, and wealthy, and instead prefers to live on food stamps and never see a doctor except in the emergency room is a myth.
Fraud by the poor and 'lazy' is not a significant part of America's health care expense, unless you count the emergency room that is their only option.

You are describing a place that is not America, JohnA.

It's a convenient bogeyman though.

You know what's funny about that argument John? People ON welfare have parroted that argument to my mom.

I call bullshit, you're just an egotistical, self-important ass. Everybody works their fingers to the bone. You're not special other than the fact that you don't give a shit about people who need help.

It will be if this bill passes.

It may be something a lot of people don't want, but 60% of people DO want it.

So it's kind of irrelevant that there are a lot of you, there's more of us.

The problem is the word "it".
When one says American's don't want it, what are we talking about here?
Healthcare reform? No, most Americans REALLY REALLY want that.
A compromise that sucks for everyone? Now that one rings true. I don't think Americans want that.

But, see, the problem is that the preferred Republican free market system wont happen so long as Democrats are around. And the Democrats' preferred single-payer system isn't faring much better. Both of these are a fantasy. And just about everything in between those two ends is a whole bunch of less-functional crap that's only slightly more beneficial than our current system, and has it's own set of baggage, corruption, exploit, and inefficiency.

So we can complain all we want about not getting exactly what we want. Either a compromise or nothing is all that's available.

Unless the Dems in power grew some balls, perhaps.

The problem is yes a majority of people want health care reform but no a majority of people do not want this worthless, most likely unconstitutional, not even worth the paper it is printed on bill to become law.

Basically the problem is the Democrats are too weak and pansy ass and Harry Reid is too scared of his own shadow to stand up and tell the Republicans in sheep's clothing better known Independents or moderate Democrats and the actual Republicans to f*** off and either propose something useful or STFU and get off the pot if you will. But by the same token the Republicans are being jerks too by being racist, judgmental a**holes who don't even give the President a chance to speak before they attack him and tear him down while at the sme time co-opting the teabaggers true outrage and demands for government reform to raise funds for their re-election campaigns.

I just wish that members of Congress on both sides of the aisle would pull their heads out of their ass and quit counting their money long enough to realize that the rest of America outside the Beltway just wants ALL of them to actually hold a vote--say no--and move on to actually addressing the real issues like the economy and the lack of jobs so we could pay our health care premiums.

You act as though the Democrats never used the filibuster when the Republicans controlled the Senate before 2006. They used it so often, then Majority Leader Bill Frist threatened a "nuclear option", changing the rules to disallow filibuster, until John McCain and the gang of 12 persuaded him not to. This is nothing new, for either side.

That's not what I meant to imply - Indeed, Dem's been pulling similar styled of BS, and BS distinctly their own.

The problem - and my point - is that we're escalating.
Republicans are using the filibuster far more than Dems did in prior years(point of fact), and when Republicans come back to the majority, it likely that Democrats will begin to filibuster even more than the Republicans are now.

See what I'm getting at here? We can't keep doing this.

The filibuster, like the electoral college, is whitey's back door to control the government in case the people actually start doing it.

I don't know about that - maybe or maybe not.
But the filibuster also represents a safety valve for some more reasonably un-good things. The mechanism has it's place... Or at least, could have it's place, if it were better implemented.

It's not revenge, it's not wanting my taxes to go up to pay for your health care. If they do pass this and raise my taxes to pay for your health care, the revenge part will come next November.

So I guess you are against taxes paying for my public schooling, or the roads I drive on, or the fire department that will save my house and life if need be, or the police department that will help me if I'm in trouble. In fact, let's just screw taxes altogether. Every time you drive on a road you can pay a toll, every time you send a kid to school you pay a small fee, any time your house is on fire, you pay the thousands of dollars it will cost the fire department.

Let's screw taxes and pay every time we use a government service. Sounds like a plan to me. I don't mind dragging my wallet out every time I get in my car or call 911.

Perhaps it might be more accurate to imagine that we'd be paying Prometheus Corp $1,000 above market value for their fire relief services due to their regional monopoly.

Or pay an additional $300 on your monthly fee to iSafeZone for addressing your security needs at a location outside your proscribed neighborhood.

Or bump up your rate plan with EduSpace, since little Timmy has recently been found to be dyslexic.

Or complain to customer service every week at MyTransCare to address the malfunctioning stoplights.

Because Taxes are BAAAD!

Taxes wasted are bad. Me paying for people who have absolutely no intention of contributing and live by scamming the system is bad. Me working to keep my mortgage paid and my utilities on, while others live in public housing I pay for, eat with food stamps I pay for, collect welfare I pay for, and have no intention of ever doing anything else is bad. And now they get to stand in line in front of me to see the Doctor I pay for, that's what is bad.

There will always be people who "scam" the system or don't try and help themselves, but the truth is that a lot of people do try and have not intention of scamming anything.

What's that saying? "Better a hundred guilty men go free than one be hanged." Something like that.

The point is that there thousands of people out there who genuinely need help and we as good citizens should do our small part to help. If that means a small bump in taxes, so be it.

Having that said, the new healthcare bill is crap. It's better than what we had, though.

we are already doing our part.
when your statement is examined in light of everything we are already paying for and a few other inconvenient facts, then this fails to be an excuse to give progressives more power and to tear off another piece of the constitution.