Pat Robertson: Haiti is paying for 'pact with Satan'

I was responding to what Rush was blathering on about. He seemed to be implying that local governments were interfering with FEMA's effort as if there was an effort during Katrina.

I agree with you. I may not have been clear. That is what I meant about it not even being a domestic problem and complications about getting aid into Haiti. I wasn't thinking about the method. Rush was comparing the two disasters as if they are the same. His assertion that Obama is providing aid to Haiti as a self-serving political move almost made my head explode.

"I try my best to not make this about me." What a load of shit. He is comparing Obama reaction to Haiti to Bush's reaction to Katrina? WTF?! We have to go into another country now, there are complications. Katrina was domestic and Rush is blaming local government for the Bush administration's incompetence? Truth is of absolutely no importance to this guy.

He must have exceeded his Oxy dose. Sorry, I can't even listen to the whole thing.

Love Keith!

I do not know which quote was forwarded, nor if it was intact, or in context.

I believe we are alive - and are so in a partially observable Universe that is "real".
I understand enough and have studies of my own, that portray for me a Universe that is entirely beyond most people's comprehension, certainly a vast complexity beyond simplistic notions.
If our Universe, meaning for me all that is and the true nature of reality, is to be called "God" that's fine - although it leads quickly to a slippery slope for many.

Regardless, the simplistic notions have been taken as "rules" and rules allow non-thinking, non-comprehension and non-personal progress. Some people spend their whole lives believing in things that are wholly untrue.

And most of time, their whole envelope of person-hood remains horribly atrophied and small.
I see the institutions of religion as vile plague against the nature of mankind.

It seems most religions are either created with or evolve to a state where in the ability is achieved for one group to diminish another. Religion is a clever little device used by mankind that in most cases is so contrary or conflicting with the whole Christ thing. History has proven time and time again that this device of religion is nothing more than a tool of mankind to set into action the destruction or decimation of those whom they deem to be different or in opposition to that which they desire. Thus, in the name of "God" all things are possible no matter how extreme the atrocity may actually be.

Yeah, so OK I peed my pants laughing...and sent the dry cleaning bill to Pat Robertson...

Glad you enjoyed it. I love The Hermit.

@telcod, I really love the story. What a priceless gem of wisdom and so true. Thanks for sharing it.

now this is the way to counter Patty-cakes! Instead of hopped up self-righteous anger, match his ridiculousness with humorous ridicule!

Exactly!

The earth is in a constant state of decay as are all things from the moment they are born or created. In time, all things go from new to old making way for the new and the changes that ensue. This is the nature of all things physical.

@Walks in Storms; I was watching the Discovery channel today regarding Mega-Volcanic eruptions. In 1815 the eruption of Tombura (sp), sorry on the spelling, led to the global winter of 1816 and massive crop failures. What is your opinion on future events of this sort compared to the daily damage by human produced CO2? I am not trolling, just asking for an opinion?
Thanks,
Moon

My brothers and I still own 32 acres of farmland, 20 miles from the nearest source of light and industrial pollution and my father was an amateur astronomer and telescope builder when we were children(1950's). So I am familar with a "starry night", cold and clear, with millions of stars spread across the Milky Way. This view has been seriously damaged over the last 40 years. But it is still one of the most awe inspiring sights that I have ever seen.

"how do you debate with a parrot?" -Best line.

Agreed! The Haitians prayed to the "Quake Gods" and asked for their total devastation. I think it went something like this:
"Oh Quake Gods who art in the bowels of the earth. Please come forward and shake our asses, kill our mothers, kill our fathers, kill our children, hell just take it all. Please destroy all that we have. It isn't much so we won't miss it and if by chance you don't get us all, then finish those that are left with starvation, dehydration and the disease from the bloating bodies that are strewn all around us. Oh look over there under that sheet; its my baby. Thank you Quake Gods for your most gracious fulfilling of the curse we asked upon ourselves of you... We "Black People" like that kinda shit. Its because we are black.

They should have prayed for responsible leadership and destruction of corruption among government officials. Maybe, then a little light would shine on these poor people.

Glover didn't say Global Warming was behind the Haitian earthquake anymore than robertson said Haiti is paying for Pact with the Devil. Both are deliberate distortions. Glover said the Carribbeans are in in peril because of global warming and climate change. He's not directly referring to earthquakes but to natural disasters.

Believers must at least believe that god at least allowed it to happen. Can you look in a childs eyes and tell them, that "god has his reasons?" that he works in mysterious ways? That an estimated 100,000 were killed to "test" us? Can you tell them, "I know your mother and father and brothers and sisterers were killed, but remember, god loves you and lives in your heart!" Pfft. Give me a break.

no false stereotyping? Eh, do you ever make sense? Stereotyping is for lazy minds who can't be bothered to look past the surface.

I reused the word. And - I am not what one could call a lazy mind.

Although I wish to make peace. I've been workin' you guys too hard.
I do think religion is waste, etc but probably have gotten too far into having fun jabbing at it.
It's kind of like science - there is an idea put forward that people simply accept, when the whole time, the Universe is larger than whatever people 'believe' for their cosmology, and is therefore necessarily wrong, as the Universe is much bigger than the whole of the belief system.
Religions hold to their first notions of their cosmology (which were approximately that same as the commonly understood science at the time).
At least science has progressed. And a greater understanding will not harm their institutions - even though, I'm sure, there will be just as many nay-sayers holding to their past mis-preconceptions.

But I've been sticking a thorn into too many of you - which doesn't feel good for anybody. Please forgive.

the only thorn you're sticking in my side at least is the thorn of incoherence. Sorry, dude, but honestly more than half the time I can't comprehend your ramblings. I think you try to cram too much into too little a space of text that it comes off as flotsam and jetsam of half-finished sentences and ideas. Either that or you post high a lot.

Of course, sometimes I don't edit mistypes - but perhaps you're reading too fast, as well. Skimming, maybe.
Maybe you don't like what I've been saying.

I'll finish with religion on this: The Universe -or God- if you wish to say that, this 'place' we all have found ourselves and have asked what it is and why we're here, - we now can say (if it weren't obvious in the past), is SO MUCH greater than all the thoughts and ideas that anyone has ever thought, - that WE ARE ALL WRONG.

I'm wrong - and you are wrong, in so far as cosmology is concerned and certainly as far the cosmology that is generally attached to religious belief. It's not real because God is bigger than your ideas.
So the one correct notion is everybody is wrong.
God is not only bigger, but WAY BIGGER - than everything anyone is liable to place belief in. That includes the Bible and the Koran and anybody who has ever talked in tongues.

We're all wrong.

Also, the cosmology placed by religions is utterly antiquated - so a more expansive understanding is found elsewhere. It's a matter of how cheaply one would purchase their belief.

This is not to say, as cztheday has pointed out, religion or the teaches of Christ can not be a great sanctuary for deep spiritual guidance. I do not argue that. I do not argue how one finds peace in their life.

We have our ideas - hopefully good ideas - and it is in them that one places "faith" - because God or the Universe stretches way, way beyond whatever I've ever heard anybody talking about. Beyond them and beyond their talk and their teaching and their religious cosmology.

Seriously? How long does it take to write a comment? I'm going to help Haiti AND throw insults at Pat Robertson. There's plenty of time to do both. It's VERY good for the public to speak out against ignorance and hatred. It takes half a minute dude. It's not like I had to take vacation time out of work and drop every other thing I have/want to do to write this comment. How much time and effort did you waste on this comment to make sure everyone knows that you don't waste your precious time commenting on non-news stories? Think of all the wonderful things you could have done with that time. Too late now. That ship has sailed. You'll never get those 30 seconds back.

So you're saying when public figures say hateful things, we should all just shut up because it has no impact? What makes you think that when religious leaders or public figures spread hateful comments that it has no impact? I personally have people in my family who really believe that Haitians worship the devil and cast voodoo spells on good Christians.

mountains out of molehills, nox, but thanks for the melodrama! Pat regurgitating some old myth is not news but people just want to have something or someone to stone. There are more comments and views on this than there are on actual news items about Haiti's earthquake itself. It's a bright shiny object that easily distracts.

I think you are overemphasizing how much this distracts from the real news of the earthquake. Plus, I think this is news in its own right because it's important to point out ignorance/lies/propaganda/etc in the media. There are a lot of people who blindly believe whatever a dude in a suit on TV says. I don't think it's right to give public/media/religious figures a pass when they try to lead the public astray.

"but people just want to have something or someone to stone"

You mean like you criticizing people's comments here now? ;-)

Pat is the one throwing the stones. As it happens, he lives in a glass house. I say that condemning Pat Robertson in this instance should be viewed as coming to the defense of Haitians. It's not like we're picking on someone who is minding their own business.

And who cares how small a minority of people feel the way that Robertson does, I still think it's worth it to call out his hatred. It honestly doesn't take that long. I personally think it's misguided to criticize people for wanting to stand up for the Haitians when someone insinuates that the Haitians had this coming. Haiti needs human compassion right now. They don't need some crazy lunatic telling them they are being punished by God. That's the underlying message behind the comments criticizing Roberts here.

http://www.cbn.com/about/pressrelease_patrobertson_haiti.aspx

Whoa, steady on your soapbox! Pat didn't pull this comment out of his ass unlike others he has. The Devil Pact story has been around for quite sometime and used for the same reason to explain why Haiti has had so many misfortunes. He is not saying Haiti had it coming i.e. that they deserved it. That is yours and others interpretation. Saying a place is cursed is different than saying that people brought on themselves.

From his site:

"On today’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about Haiti’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering."
-----------------------------

"Plus, I think this is news in its own right because it's important to point out ignorance/lies/propaganda/etc in the media. "

In the media? Since when has the 700 Club ever been considered part of the quote media unquote? As for ignorance/lies/propaganda in the media look no further than the countless news media stating that Pat said "Haiti is paying for pact with Satan." which he did not say! Saying he implied is different than saying he said it. What would have been more accurate would have been to say "Pat Robertson thinks Haiti under a curse from centuries old pact with the Devil." That's more factual to what he said.

"They don't need some crazy lunatic telling them they are being punished by God."

One he never said they were being punished by God. Your words, not his. Let's not go all "Al Gore created the internet" on this. And two he wasn't telling Haitians anything as I doubt many Haitians watch 700 Club being predominately Catholic and the majority of them not having the electricity to see his stupid show anyway. Right now they could probably care less what some doddering old fool has to say so long as he is sending emergency supplies.

"I still think it's worth it to call out his hatred."

And where is the hate you speak of? If he hated Haiti would he be sending money and supplies there? Does the KKK send relief money to disaster-stricken countries of non-whites? Pat is just an idiot in this case and insensitive to dredge up the old curse myth at a time like this but people here are blowing the thing out of proportion in a Fox News kind of style. I thought Currenters were against that kind of thing and yet I see here so often people acting in a similar fashion as those they stand against. Pat's perceived ignorance and intolerance is being matched with ignorance and intolerance.

"Saying he implied is different than saying he said it."

Not to me. I stand by ALL of my comments even if it's "implied". That's the message he was trying to convey and that's what he believes. This is not the first time he's blamed the victims of natural disaster.

"Pat is just an idiot in this case and insensitive to dredge up the old curse myth at a time like this"

I agree. That's why I called him out. If you don't see what he said/"implied" as hateful then I give up. Most everyone else did. See ya around.

"That's the message he was trying to convey and that's what he believes."

that's an assumption not a fact.

"If you don't see what he said/"implied" as hateful then I give up."

That's a weak argument as it's not really an argument. I asked you how can he hate Haiti if he is sending money and supplies. Believing a place to be cursed doesn't mean a person hates it. One could also interpret it as him feeling sorry for the sufferings brought on by a deal he believes took place centuries before that the people of today had no say in. This isn't the same thing as blaming a rape victim because they wore a mini-skirt.

"Most everyone else did."

I don't believe in being a sheep just because it's trendy.

As I said before, he's an insensitive jackass for dredging that old myth up at a time like this instead of turning to something consoling. However, even if he did, most likely the majority of Haitians wouldn't have heard it because right now food, water, and medical supplies are more important than TV broadcasts of goodwill that they can't watch anyway for lack of power.

"I don't believe in being a sheep just because it's trendy."

Yeah because that's the only reason why people would feel that "implying" that the earthquake is The Haitians' own fault is hateful. (Yeah telling them they're "cursed" because they made a pact with the devil is what that means - word it however you want, it doesn't change anything). That's the same reason why most people don't like Hitler too. Because it's trendy. Baah. Baah.

"If you don't see what he said/"implied" as hateful then I give up."

"That's a weak argument as it's not really an argument."

no shit "I give up" isn't an argument. Neither are arguments over semantics which is the entirety of your argument, which is why I give up. You are entitled to your opinion and you can hold onto it as hard as you wish. Peace bro. Have a good weekend.

"Yeah because that's the only reason why people would feel that "implying" that the earthquake is The Haitians' own fault is hateful."

How is that hateful? Stupid yes but hateful? Hateful to modern Haitians? Hateful to the resistance leaders of 1791? Hateful to Satan? Besides he didn't say the Haitians of today made a pact but that the resistance leaders made a pact which in his mind and others before him caused this curse.

"word it however you want, it doesn't change anything"

Actually it does change everything. Just ask Al Gore about him inventing the internet.

"That's the same reason why most people don't like Hitler too."

Dear God, why did you have to drag Hitler into this? Nothing sappier than a Nazi analogy.

"Neither are arguments over semantics which is the entirety of your argument"

No, my argument is over truth and its distortion and the tendency for straw man arguments.

I've given up trying to justify why I think that Pat Robertson is hateful and I'll elaborate more on why I have given up because of your debating tactics.

He's not "hateful" he's an "insensitive jackass"
=Semantics (he should still be condemned whether overtly hateful or insensitive, it is inconsequential to the argument. Either way it's mean.)

He didn't "say" that it's the Haitians' own fault, he "implied" it.
=Semantics (they are equally reprehensible)

It's not that it's the Haitians' own fault, it's that their "cursed" because they allegedly made a pact with the devil.
=Semantics (conceptually equivalent statements)

Logical inconsistencies:

1. If most people believe a certain thing, it is because they are sheep/trendy.
- Not always. They are sheep if they are blindly following what other people believe without considering the belief on its own merits. Nobody who watched Robertson's video themselves and made their own judgment is being a sheep.

I used the fact that most people think Hitler was hateful as an example of a situation where most people feel a certain way (about Hitler in this case) when they are not being sheep. It doesn't matter that it's Hitler. It could be that most people think that starvation is a bad thing (it is not sheepish to feel that way), but yet you focused on the word "Hitler". It's because you're stuck on the language rather than the concept. I didn't compare Robertson or anyone else to Hitler. All I said, which I'm sure you would agree, is that most people think Hitler was hateful. But go ahead and dodge the issue by focusing on the word "Hitler" if you must. The point is that although sometimes a commonly held belief is misguided and sheepish, it is not always the case.

2. If person, A, implies/says something mean/hateful/insensitive (take your pick of words, stop focusing on them) to some victim, B, and A is part/leader/spokesperson of an organization that is helping victim B, then it necessarily follows that A must not be discriminating against/being hateful towards victim B.

It's just not necessarily true. Pat Robertson said horrible things about the Haitians despite the fact that his organization is also helping them in some way. Nobody ever said that Pat Robertson was logically consistent. He certainly isn't.

3. Somehow if the Haitians didn't hear Pat Robertson's opinion, it makes what he said less bad.

I'll let you mull that one over yourself.

It's for these reasons that I don't feel debating you would get either of us anywhere, because you are shifting the focus to semantics and you are focusing on my word choice. That's what we're arguing over. The actual debate has lost all of its meaning.

My opinion is that what Pat Robertson said was horrible and he should not have said it. Blaming the victims is horrible! Saying/implying that a group of people deserve to have death and destruction inflicted upon them is hateful. It does not matter that he didn't come right out and say that the Haitians deserved it. He believes that this earthquake happened because they are cursed because they made a pact with the devil. Given all the things Robertson said in the past about God's wrath, and the assumption that he believes God is just, then it logically follows that he believes what happened to the Haitians was a just consequence of their past mistakes (in other words they deserved it). That's hateful in my opinion. That's what it boils down to.

I know you don't share my opinion, and that's fine with me. I think you are subconsciously trying to defend Christianity when it isn't Christianity that is under attack. It's a mean, hateful, old man saying ridiculous things who is under attack. That's pure conjecture and I admit I could be way off base.

You want to simply pass off my argument as semantics to make it easier for you to dismiss it. Your debate tactics leave much to be desired.

Being insensitive and being hateful are not the same thing. I don't know what dictionary you are using but one is far stronger. As I said my argument is the distortion of truth.

You say he implied that the earthquake is the Haitians own fault. That's one interpretation and it's an assumption. That's why I brought up the Al Gore remark to show how the twisting of words even by the slightest can distort the truth and create a whole new picture.

You say he said the Haitians made a pact with the devil. He didn't. He said the resistance leaders did in their struggle with the French. And he is echoing what has been believed by a number of religious leaders in Haiti for quite some time to explain Haiti's continual suffering. He didn't just pull this out of thin air. To believe people or a nation is under a curse does not equate to hatred of them. It could also be construed as pity which is why he said we should pray and send aid. If he felt they had it coming, would he send aid? Would he have been sending aid even before the earthquake?

"Blaming the victims is horrible! Saying/implying that a group of people deserve to have death and destruction inflicted upon them is hateful."

You sure are hellbent to crucify someone you don't like. I don't like him either but in your self-righteous crusade you are tainting yourself with assumptions based more in emotion than cool-headed logic which distort reality. He did not say they deserved it. Implying that he said that is an interpretation of his words which in the quoted passage about his organization denies being God's wrath.

"They are sheep if they are blindly following what other people believe without considering the belief on its own merits."

My bad, I should have said lynch mob because that would be more appropriate.

"I think you are subconsciously trying to defend Christianity when it isn't Christianity that is under attack."

Another assumption and a shallow one at that. What I am attacking is hypocrisy which is something seen too often here. Current should be an alternative to the mass media and should be above the penny-ante tactics used by the mass media particularly Fox News to get ratings and stir controversy just for the sake controversy. I find users here to be little better than the mass media many of them claim to hate because they use the same tactics. Also I find many to be just as bad as people like the Tea Party or neo-cons for example because they jump in guns a-blazing with little knowledge while distorting the facts. They are the flip-side of the coin. This story is just one example.

Attacking someone like Pat Robertson is a temptation, a temptation that can lead people to go overboard and stray into the kind of territory that we complain about neo-cons, fundamentalist christians, Tea Partiers, Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck. It's an area of emotional responses, hatred, illogical reasoning, ignorance, distorted reality, self-righteousness, and ultimately hypocrisy and by straying into this area makes us little better than them.

Pat Robertson should be attacked for his insensitive statements but he should be attacked for what he ACTUALLY said and the timing in which he said it but once we go off into assumptions and distortions and wishing him harm and death then we become little better than him or the jokers at Fox News.

what he said was historically correct? haiti got together and in one unified voice made a pact with the devil (heh)? and then the devil agreed? (hahaahahahaha) please send me the video footage a newspaper article something... i don't even know how to get a hold of the devil. is that like a UN thing or...facebook maybe? i dunno

Historically correct? No wonder people like Pat Robertson have followers like you. People like him bring tear to Jesus eyes.

Even if we assume it is historically correct[which just bunch of voodoo to assume that HAHAHA] the pact and lease with devil ended in 1991. Unless you want to claim the God has been carrying the grudge this long........ridiculously funny indeed.

Get real people, God loves and does not intervene in our day to day lives and natural disasters.

Haitians cannot clean out their own toilets??? What message does that send!

Pretty sure the thousands of Haitians who died from the earthquake would beg to differ.

Don't be so melodramatic! I highly doubt Haitians are so thin-skinned that the babblings of a doddering old man regurgitating an old myth are going to bother them more than what they just went through.

thats great! laughed for a full minute or two

Would that be financial aids?

nope, I'm not embarrassed. I don't have to answer for the ravings of every nut who claims to belong to group I associate with nor should I or anyone else. If people would stop stereotyping, it wouldn't be an issue. Pat is who he is and I be who I be.

I am Irish Catholic and even with all the sexual abuse cases involving the priest and the church's attempt to cover it up....I am still proud to be Catholic, my faith gives me strength and solace in time of stress. Pat Roberston doesn't affect me, he made a fool all by himself.......B

And the first monotheists said there's "One God" - so all the little devils and minions and superstitious crap these people hold to - are also the creation of the one and only god.

You know, the term is going so shallow. Sitting inside a larger Universe that really is real.

Two minutes of thinking would bring these people too embarrassed to leave the house.