Looking At The Beef In The Vegetarian Argument

if someone wants to be a vegetarian, then they will be. i grew up around farming and ranching, and never saw any of the horrific abuse that goes on in factory farms. because that kind of behavior was simply unthinkable. i'm well aware of it now, and am an advocate for the ending of these horrific practices. however, i will continue to eat meat because it's my nature. i'm an omnivore. you do not have to turn away from meat just because of the crimes of a few psychos. and just because horrible things go on in some of those places, does not mean that animals are unilaterally abused in each and every slaughterhouse. sure, they die, but then, their fate could be much worse, say, being killed slowly by the fangs and claws of a predator.

#1 Who would eat a hamburger EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK for YEARS ON END? That's disgusting. If you were to eat ANYTHING every day for years on end it would cause health problems, especially if you were eating it at the exclusion of other dietary needs. I eat free-range grass fed beef about once a month or less. And I love it. It's delicious.

#2 Wow, a study done by a biased organization, with results that hold controversy amongst the larger medical community? I'll believe that without question! Now really, is there a link between eating TOO MUCH meat and other things, like colon cancer? Certainly. Should most Americans eat LESS MEAT than what they do? Certainly. Should everybody go vegan, lest they die? That's fucking absurd. I'm with Jane Goodall's non-extremist diet: more veggies, more fruit, less meat.

#3 This is a grouping of statistics that biases towards a pre-determined conclusion. It doesn't separate grain-fed livestock, which depend on petrol-intensive agriculture, from free-range livestock, which are carbon neutral to carbon negative.

#4 Really? Lettuce? Did you know that pound for pound, beef also has 100% more essential nutrients, enzymes and amino acids than lettuce-- which is mostly water?

#5 Free range, grass-fed only beef is carbon neutral to carbon negative. The grass that grows actually takes carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it in the ground via it's root systems, which act as a carbon sink and helps to rebuild topsoil. It's only when livestock is kept too intensely in unnatural concentrations that overgrazing causes detriment.

#6 Another grouping that biases towards a predetermined conclusion. Certainly factory farming is terrible. But you need to separate factory farming from the sustainable agricultural practices that have been used from ancient times up until today.

fourfingaz' Influences/Heroes:
Rage against the machine, MLK, Freedom fighters

______________

I just wasted a bit of time checking out the mini-details fourfingaz submitted on himself.

Two of the three influences (see above) that he'd chosen immediately came to my shocked attention, because I was so astonished to see his choosing Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and those Freedom Fighters. Simply put, can anyone possibly imagine any of those brave individuals writing to us in the same ugly, hateful manner with which fourfingaz chooses to write to people?

I grew up in the Civil Rights Movement, and although I never personally got to meet Dr. King (marched with him, though), I did meet up with any number of those brave, intelligent, gentle-minded Freedom Fighters.

I'm glad I'm an atheist so I don't have to worry that either Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or our Freedom Fighters would be rolling in their graves with shame at the horrible, disrespectful, and hate-filled way with which fourfingaz addresses us.

I needed to say that. Thank you.

We eat flesh constantly, religiously/ and wickedly/ we chomp on KFC and Mickey D's delicious number 3's/

but you're the chicken, easily, if you can't watch a dvd of factories that murder animals compassion-free/

tragically we sometimes think our meat comes magically to stores and not from torture, as it does actually/

When we eat beef, how often do we question how each animal lived and suffered defeat?/

not that we ask how we farm our wheat, but there's no suffering to plants and trees /

compared to how we artificially force pigs to breed, as the mothers lose their will to breathe/

their babies bleed inconspicuously/ these animals live listlessly as the 'employees' kill freely/

it's really quite disturbing that it's all hidden behind such a thin curtain, yet most ignore on purpose, for certain/

there's more in store for a person who eats this perverted version of beef then losing sleep/

the industry pulls the wool over our eyes like sheep, as antibiotic-resistant bacteria creep into our teeth/

the future's bleak if this catastrophe continues to spread internationally, and intelligent animals lose sanctuary/

intelligent cannibals, humans, give thanks and bury furry/feathered friends down the hatch, with curry in a hurry/

saying grace saves face, bless the neck down of this animal race, but the head has no place on our plate/

we have no basis to rate the steak as great, because the cow was shipped from out of state with no name plate/

so the meat we make and bake, then eat, is fake/ because no one seeks the time to take our kind consumers to the factory line /

where death is blind and torture goes undefined/ think about your order next time you dine/

I think you are what you eat. The antibiotics that are overly used in the meat industry are a good enough reason to stop eating it altogether. Europe is already starting to take steps to cut back on antibiotic use.

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Jogging is actually good for your heart.

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Folks, don't ask me why I just wrote that, but something suddenly came to me, and I simply HAD to post that. I feel as if my mind is mystifyingly being controlled by some dark foreign four-fingazed entity.

I watched, Food, Inc. last night....I will never buy another hamburger/eat at a fast food joint again! That was enough for me.
Even my boyfriend made the remark about becoming a vegetarian!
I don't know I'll go that far, I have always been a meat eater. Just don't know where I can buy any now. :((
I'll be eating a lot more veggies, that's for sure.

While it would be wonderful to all eat healthily raised meats, it is not affordable for most people. Other than that, I don't have the slightest problem eating meat, because I know that those domesticated animals wouldn't even have a life if humans didn't raise them for food.

I would love to hear an argument for why it is better to have no life than a bad one. Talk to people you know who haven't had the best home life. If they haven't killed themselves yet, there is a pretty good chance they feel the same way as me.

As much as I would loveloveLOVE to see the cattle ranches gone from Nebraska FOREVER, I can't deny that we evolved into omnivores for a reason. We were not built to spend a third of our day grazing (although sadly, that is what some people are doing anyway..and not for veggies). And the facts about cancer and heart disease more likely from eating meat, are I expect taken from a study using mass produced 60-75% lean beef. This is what the majority of our country eats for meat, despite knowing about all of the nitrates and hormones pumped into these animals which DO cause cancer and other health issues. The high fat calorie content accounts for the heart problems. HOWEVER, this is not an accurate argument for vegetarians, because this is only one type of meat. They're not covering the lean meats including 95-98% lean and/or "organic" beef, chicken, turkey, fish, and wild game. Many families including mine eat from those meats exclusively. Personally, I only buy local meat, or from the short list of more "ethical" farms. Getting all the earth products to make a healthy vegetarian or omnivore diet takes more time and money than people can often afford (especially in this depression). I greatly admire those that can make it work for them, since it is a whole lifestyle change. But like our dependency on oil, we would need either a supermassive change despite the cost from the general public, or a change from the supercompanies above. Without that we can't really go very far as a society.

To summarize, I strongly believe our society as a whole should eat less meat. I do not think it is a good idea to try to persuade people to stop eating meat entirely.

Awwwwwwww......

Be careful, or I'll send you some stuff on fish! [GRIN]

Anyway, just for the heck of it, fellow music-lover, here's the link to the group loosely-named "Veganism." It's really all about animal rights, and lots more, but we vegans tend to be [non-violent] animal rights activists, so veganism and animal rights "go together," if you will.

I always appreciate when I catch submissions or comments from animalia libero.

Oh, the chickens! How sad is THAT, huh?! They, too, have their beaks and toes cut off -- without anesthesia -- when they're just babies. And they're such sweet little creatures, too.

Thank you for giving me an emotional boost just now, PressCore.

Thank you E.V. for your kind hearted, warm, compassionate,feeling story. I buy frozen fish, but that's the only compromise my conscience will ever make. Ever since animalia libero told me about how cruely chickens are raised, I won't even buy eggs anymore. God Bless you. For what it's worth, I'm 60, and I walk faster than people 1/3 my age. I still feel like I did when I was 17. I'm simply more aware of my mortality than I was in 1966, and for it, am more patient & prudent than I was back then. But I know when I recover the 10 lbs of lean muscle mass I've shed since, I'll be back to my proper weight of 173, and run like the horse again as I did in 1976 when I ate a vegetarian diet.
Human Growth Hormone is an extremely powerful substance. It can transform
or deform anyone with it or without it.

I love when they never post the bad side of there argument.
Vegetarians.....Die younger,There kids are sick more often, slumping sex function, muscle loss, bone damage...............

Somewhere within this spaghetti mess... southrabbit said:

"We respect them because they are important and give our lives to us so we can have a better life. It's a trade off. They usually only live a few years more anyway. Better that they do it fat and happy."...............

Oh, oh, oh, dear.

First off, I think you meant to say these animals give THEIR lives to us. If you meant that, oh, gosh, how wrong you are. Have you ever talked to any animals to ask them if it's okay if you cruelly slaughter them so you can get some protein? Animals shouldn't be used by us.

Secondly, and hell, this is tough to keep succinct: First you say they "usually only live a few years more anyway," which is not an accurate statement. And it goes with your last sentence, "Better that they do it fat and happy." Oh, my.

These farmed animals are injected with growth hormones and other drugs that genetically alter them, and their offspring, for ever and ever after. So they live much shorter lives only because -- if they're not slaughtered while still young -- they are suffering! And what are they suffering FROM? Their FAT!

Every day that I go up to Animal Acres (a farmed animals sanctuary), I see these little piglets, whom I can scoop up in my arms and hug and kiss. I go back just a few months later, and they're up to 200, 300 pounds. Within just a couple more months, they're all up to 800 POUNDS EACH!!!! That's because they've been genetically altered. And as a result, the pain within -- the weight on their hearts, their livers, their kidneys, their skeletal systems -- in horrifying. It's unbearable to watch as they lie in their straw, unable to get up. So when a volunteer brings out their food, they have to struggle mightily to work themselves up onto their KNEES, which end up bloodied and worse, because they then drag their overweight (by about 600 pounds) bodies to the food bins and eat in that fashion. And because they're such clean animals, they go through the same painful ordeal when they have to poop and pee, because pigs are extraordinarily clean animals, and keep their "bathroom" area separate from where they sleep or eat or hang out.

I've seen this with our beautiful turkeys. They've been genetically altered to grow gigantic chests (more "meat," you see), and so their delicate little feet oftentimes give out on them, and they collapse with broken legs (they're already toe-less, since the farmers have chopped off their toes, along with their beaks). The worst is watching them try to hop down from a bale of hay to the ground, because their legs simply snap... and then they die. No, maybe the worst is watching them when the unnatural (humane-caused) weight causes their hearts to suddenly GIVE OUT! Just like that. It's agonizing to watch. Sometimes I've seen the turkeys' bottoms literally burst open, and their insides begin to slip out. These turkeys, by the way, are super intelligent, surprisingly friendly, and love to be petted and talked to. In fact, with some of "my" turkey friends, if they sit on my lap long enough, and I keep giving them the attention they are craving, they begin to PURR!

All the factory farmed animals are either skin-and-bones or super fat, and it's only because of self-centered human beings.

I can't even look at the slabs of beef in the supermarket without getting nauseated.

Animals are to be respected and held in the highest regard, not to be eaten.

I thought my reply rant was pretty good... but I also wanted to add that Americans have historically been classically conditioned to like things that are in high supply. When the US started producing corn fed beef people didn't like it... but now they love the taste of it. Just like how they strip the vitamins from a McDonald's burger to make it cheaper to produce... our meat contains less and less nutritionally desirable content. Not to mention all the antibiotics they have to use because they cows get sick and infected from acidosis and from other problems associated with eating corn (another product we're trying to get rid of because we have too much).

In short... all of our meat has become an over processed fast food slurry that is killing us slowly. I already talked about the spread of disease from improper farming practices. The last meat recall was... last week, right? Hmmm.

Either way... the farming and consumption of meat in our current process is killing everything. The world, people, animals. It's fucked up. Just eat LESS meat. Seriously. You don't need a burger every day.

I'm a vegetarian and I find this article really biased.

The word "meat" is being used as a blanket statement. There needs to be a differentiation between factory/ plant produced meat and organic free range meat.
Meat is plenty healthy for humans, we've evolved to eat it. What is bad is factory raised, anti-biotic eating, chemical pumped McDonald's "meat." But if I raise my own chickens or fish for my own fish in some waters that happen to be plentiful (not likely), it's totally healthy and beneficial.

Another note, just because it takes less water and carbon to raise vegetables doesn't make it carbon footprint-less when it gets to your table. Those vegetables you buy at the super market can come from all over the world. And thats a lot of carbon pumping travel.

If we just bought local and organic the world would be a lot better.

I LOVE VEGETARIAN FOOD
it tastes great and is actually good for you
(i don't only eat carrots)

eat, drink, and be merry!! I'd much rather enjoy the food in my life and die a few years younger than eat carrots the rest of my life and maybe even still die young

The Hollandishers have come up with an artificial pork product that's intriguing.With enough perseverence, they no doubt will improve on it enough to learn as they go along, and really come up with something tasty. I won't buy meat because of the brutaly inconscionable and senselessly horrid way that humans enslave other animals for food. Since the type of ultra high tech devices envisioned in the Star Trek TV series such as protein sequencers and food replicators are still a long way off,,, no doubt artificial meat is the best we moderns can come up with to substitute for the real thing. But it will be worth it to avoid the health problems that eating meat inevitably causes. And it's not like this idea is something new. Winston Churchill suggested the idea 70 years ago.

From the Atkins Diet Revolution book and all the research that went into it, I read some interesting facts about human health. Though humans have evolved from primates who were herbivores, since the last Ice Age, the
modern Cro Magnons who absorbed the Neanderthals that we're all descended from, survived because they ate meat, and stored fat. That's why were now omnivores. And also, It wasn't until the 2nd generation of Americans who ate denatured grains(non whole food) came of age during the 1890s that modern humans even knew the kind of degenerative diseases usually associated with aging that have reached epidemic levels today. It's the combination of a high cholesterol, high saturated fat diet AND high levels of sugar simultaneously that causes heart disease, diabetes, etc. You can really live well, and keep the weight down by either being a vegan or a meat eater, because humans are biologically adjusted to it by now..That's a generality. It won't work for all people. But what's really killing us slowly is all the toxins, and pollutants that have made any kind of natural food endangered. The human immune system wasn't designed to cope with massive invasions of foreign substances. To keep in perfect health at any age you need to maintain an enzyme to antibody ratio of 48. You'd be near death at a ratio of 23. So eating RAW,organically grown vegetables,fruits,grains,nuts, seeds,legumes still wins hands down despite the rationalizations carnivores come up with. And that makes perfect sense when you reason it out. Evolution occurs in generations over vast intervals of time. Humans have adapted to being meat eaters over the past 10,000 years well, but humans per se developed the molars, amylase enzyme saliva, low hydrachloric stomach acid levels, and super long small intestines over milliions of years. That's why you'll always feel better after eating a vegan meal. Out ancestors were always eating on the run from predators.

Animals that feed on both meat and vegetables are omnivores, not carnivores.

Of course, many of these things could also be addressed by reducing the amount of meat in the typical American diet. Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I'm eating it 3 meals a day, every day. Nor should it.

as long as vegetarians/vegans don't claim they're starting a revolution or saying they're better than others. it's a dietary choice. it's really not the most important thing in the world.

I won't kick a dog that's dying on the side of the road. but hell, I'll eat a cow. people have been doing it since...forever?

some vegetarians/vegans can be pretty cruel to us meat eaters.

it is not natural to be vegan. we are omnivores, remember?
we simply need to make our meat production more humane and limit it, i suppose.

i don't even like beef, i prefer white meats, they're better for you. everything about beef in this article is relevant and important to know, hence why i choose not to consume it. we do have plenty of proof of what beef can do to you.

but to not eat meat all together is quite freaky. believe me, i have a very new age outlook on life and part of being a human and a naturalist is understanding that we are meant to eat both meat and vegetation. just keep it natural and organic as much as you can.

New Agers! Awaken! You have canine teeth. There is a school of thought that can amass data on the incidence of cancer being directly proportional to that time when humans began eating grain. You are ferkin carnivores, like it or not. Now.....pass me a greasy burger...on the rare side if you please.

Not eating animals is a great way to reduce environmental destruction and improve your health at the same time. Aside from these practical concerns, I personally feel that it makes sense to avoid harming other animals when possible.

I think, the animals from factory farming are not healthy to eat, that's why I left.

Oh, my, you've no idea how much I agree! Factory farming is abhorrent.

And simply BECAUSE of factory farming, I left my vegetarian way of life and went vegan over 15 years ago! I live with a clearer conscience, now.

the things that go on in these factory farms should be illegal