Turkish girl buried alive for talking to boys

I do not think anyone knows how far this stuff goes. The fact they we hear about it - way over here - means it happens more than we know.

Also, - when you read about these things over time, the stories from different places - and covering fairly wide topics involving women and what people do to them - it begins to add up.

Kind of like the smell of death - it just catches the nose.

In other words, if somehow these people in all these Islamic countries suddenly had to make a list of where all the bodies were buried, how big a list do you think it would make?
Do you really think it would be a small, unimportant little thing?

It is a problem, regardless of the size, the more people respond the more likely this abuse will be recognized, persued and stopped.
I would not discourage any conversation or opinion, it is how people learn.

Yep, it adds up to the fact that all of human kind is capable of doing some insane shit when put into the right environment. Wether it's a man killing his own daughter for given reasons, or a child that kills his own parent for not letting him play on his xbox.

No I do not know how big of a problem honor killings are. But neither do you. So suggesting it would make a big list on the number of death causes in Islamic countries, is not rational.

Even if your presumptions were correct, that most of these honor killings take place in said countries, how would you explain that they do not occur as often in western countries, where millions of muslims live.
Like I said, the environment and culture they grow up in is a big influence. That is why the millions of muslims that live in other countries, with a completely different state of mind, do not have these kinds of backward thoughts of killing your daughter when she talks to men. The few cases out of those 200 per year that do occur outside of Islamic countries, are just immigrants that still think like their family back home.

I don't think Muslims have out-grown their cultures as you seem to think. I've known a few - they have family and ties and travel back with some regularity.

What we have been discussing is backward - but then, there are many backward towns throughout the middle east. Cities too. - Millions of people. The towns all these terrorists might be coming from. They are coming from somewhere - correct?

Also, I have the feeling my 'tip of the iceberg' metaphor has a weight of probability. How many girls are stuffed under how many chicken coops?

You seem to lean, I think awkwardly, on unprovable proof. I should assert: where there's smoke, it's best to start asking about fire, not avoiding the question.

Are you hoping to avoid, to placate?

You are right, bad stuff happens all over the world - but this news begs us for concern - and it is entirely about what portends from Islam.

thank you.

If you have these kinds of materials and could collate them into a web document; and with the force and dynamics of your direct experience, it might prove to be a powerful tool to help the world in far-reaching ways.

A simple link can be passed around and read - over and over.

A site should have histories and methods of action that can be adopted, etc, but such a documentation might become a seed for many and be well worth your time creating it.

I understand, - completely.

:-} However - An organized, multi-page web site -with as a refined and cut-down content as humanly possible, "just the facts" - like straight news and no opinion - would probably be a fun few days of crapping around in your browser-editor program.
Then it goes up - and a little putting it on the search-engines and posting on talk groups.
And maybe there'd be a little back-pay for all your prior effort.
Once it's on the internet, it's 24/7, year in and out, with no further effort.

this is really bad to say, but the father was probably jealous.

Probably. 16 years old + backward, inhibited and deeply angry and now 'old'.
That's one of things, I believe has gone on with that young gal in Italy they have convicted of murder.
They had the rapist's DNA and tracked him down and gave him 30 years, but the prosecutors decided they could make a case against the young and beautiful roommate. They proclaimed that when the rapist broke in and was raping and murdering the girl, her roommate was there and decided to join because they had had roommate arguments.
I say, the prosecutors are old pervs who see the shining beauty of a youth that is forbidden them - they see the full blossom - and she's sassy and excitable - and it teases them and they just can't have it themselves.
Probably the same thing happened to Joan of Arc.

These people became old - and now everything they wanted in life is denied yet dances in a fire before them; - and they go 'postal'.

So you are just researching child sex right, sure.

that is normal to ask - why would someone search "_____ sex" anyway? is it to learn about it, watch it, crime fight those you see talking about it, is it simply curiosity? hypocritical of those who oppose it also search for it...such is life though, full of hypocrites...oh oh, it is okay for ME to do it but it is NOT okay for YOU! Sounds like my family and the government for that matter...mother always knows best, dearest.

Christianity is also a violent religion...Crusades anyone??

I have seen, believe it or not, that when you really get down to talking with some Muslims and they start getting angry enough to tell you what's really bugging them, they blurt out "Bay Watch!"
:-} - That's true!
They DO NOT WANT OUR CULTURE infecting their culture. They want control - so they can have their women without any undue and unwanted influences giving them the idea to wear high skirts and take off in search of more pleasant surroundings.
That's one of the main elements down in the heart of this, they do not want to lose control of their women.
people in the west learned a long time ago - you can't control women. Not unless you burn or bury a few, maybe.

Very interesting Observation 02, could we say there's more going on about Primal instinct maybe? I think you've got the wee corner of a very big stone up thats deeper in the mud or eye than most people notice. personally I like to look at things as "the human condition" it helps me to grasp elusive forces at work on many issues.

The stone is set deep in. Burying your 16 year old daughter. There has to be some huge piece of humanity missing in those people (it was by family vote). That is what their background and religious culture did for them. Make them profoundly less than what we can know as the innate value of the human person.
They are missing that quality - for which and about which we have built our perceptions of humanity.

The family dynamics going on here are stifling. I suppose if you don't agree with the males, you, too, could be next.....

Definitely - and tragically, they go along.

We've all heard of this kind of thing attending backward peoples, backward places. However, this is also an aspect that is Islamic. An aspect of Islamic culture. And in the modern world, today - I have to wonder why the very rich leaders in the many Islamic countries aren't starting to ask themselves how they can engage a program, that would be seen as a strictly Islamic program to bring an enlightened change.

After all, great accolade finds the image and legacies of such great leaders. Where are these people?

As it is, their reputations, as Muslims, wear these kinds of incidents - like a badge.

You need feel no shame. It is extremely difficult for anyone to get a grasp of just what is really ticking inside someone else.

Regardless, these kinds of activities in the Muslim world carry into their local social interactions; which can spill directly into the greater world and your own life. It might be thought that 9/11 is an example - or any Islamic terrorist activities. These things start and are carried forth by people. The kinds of people who want to retain their freedom to subjugate women as they see fit.
It is good to try and get a solid understanding of what these people do and how they are thinking in order to have an understanding of our present world situation.

It is, after all, the world you hope to live in.

Not discrediting evil and (Islamic) extremist views but could group think and mob mentality be forces at play as well?
Could the situation be bigger than the person(s)?
We will never know exactly how this meeting went but one thing is for sure - she went down there with out any bruises or cuts.
Yet she did go down there with psychological trauma and I can speculate a lot of guilt.
The psychological side is worth mentioning - for both parties. it is so sad that people resort to putting their supposed loved one to death instead of seeking treatment for themselves. this is really where education and lack there of comes in to play. When you are taught religious extremism instead of schooling you are bound to have many problems with out proper know how to fix them...and I am not talking about meds here.

i din t agree with nuke em freedom of speach u big pussy

i did not say you did. but someone else did so that was a response to that. and you can have your freedom of speech, but you might want to learn how to spell first.

if you look at default settings on here the responses go from newest to oldest. so my ranting was about previous comments that was posted.

I understand your passion about this issue since you are a father yourself but still i feel obligated to go over some things again for you:

1-Calling me a big pussy and not offering anything else to the conversation is not a good defensive strategy.
2-use spell check or learn to spell. again not good for your defense.
3-Learning and observing how this website works might come in handy for future confusions and conflicts. i.e. just looking at when comments were posted might help. in this case the nuke comment was made to a comment that was made 21 hours prior to mine. and yet again this is not good for your defense.
4- and just being calm and thinking before talking is always a good idea. let's have good intellectual conversations. it is always easy to call people names without actually saying anything valuable.

A lot of your reply seems devoted to pointing away from Islam to similar or similar sounding injustices.
Whether subtly or strongly voiced, such argument attempts to thwart attention on Islam. The subject here is Islam, nothing else.
Present day and wide spread problems within Islam regarding the treatment of women is the subject. Other religions are not the subject.

Also, there are zero excuses. Each religion has to face itself as a body. Being Muslim is being a member of the Islamic body.

Christians had the Inquisition among many, many other horrid practices in their histories - and include problems to the present day. They should be dealing with their problems.

Their problems have nothing to do with Islam. Islam is in full engagement to enjoin with the greater (outside of Islamic culture) and present day world. The various problems their various internal cultures produce, need to be addressed.

As I've pointed out - you're either engaged, in some fashion, to clean house - or you are abetting and prolonging these areas of egregious rot that is certainly a part of the Islamic world.

Points taken. "Nuking" is probably an over reaction. I withdraw the motion.

+^d

:D

i am actually not involved with anything.

but i do see your point as well, because reading it again, i might sound that way.

and you are right like every religion islam or the way people perceive it or show it has a lot of problems (i am saying it this way because i am not educated enough on islam to know if qur'an says it straight out "kill your daughter if she talks to boys". but i am pretty sure it does not give that much specified details. it might say 'honor your family' and the way people perceive it corrupts this saying).

what it all comes down to is the human element. human element caused all the horrific things happened in the past. human element made the decisions on causing wars. If people are not educated they are more likely to get brain washed by stupid shit and end up doing horrifying stuff like things. It is easy to blame ideologies and pretend every human is an angel and they are pure but oh those evil ideologies, they make people do horrible things.
but to be honest my answer is no. what i believe is that we are the main cause of all this stuff happening and religion+uneducatedness (not sure if that is a word but you get the point) is just a boosts.

i blame governments to not educate their people and letting them believe in shit like this. i blame people in their village not standing up for these kinds of acts. I blame people covering their crimes and saying my religion made me do this.

yeah islam is not the best religion when it comes to portraying peace and understanding (but i do believe that not any of the organized religions are either) and muslims do have a lot to work on. but my problem is people being ignorant to each other and killing each other.

for me it does not come down to love and loving each other and peace. but for me it is actually UNDERSTANDING each other. showing empathy for another. you don't need love to understand one another. seeing where the other one comes from. and that can only happen with KNOWING each other. and knowing something can only happen with knowledge aka EDUCATION. (this paragraph actually ended up sounding like yoda's fear leads to hate speech, sorry..)

Exactly. And I see that people want to have things simple and all squared away, and that drive allows religion to have easy access.
Anything we take on as a belief, establishes what we think is knowledge and therefore disallows thinking. Since people already know, they don't need to think it over. They end up just rationalizing what they think the belief system would dictate.

Actually, religion doesn't make life easier, it just closes off all the future understandings that the individual would have used his/her brains to see and find.
It closes off life.

And then we have this stuff where generations are closed off - from their good graces.

Burying your own daughter. Sixteen year-olds talk to boys - that's God's commandment.
And so, it proves the relevance of that religion's dogma.

I definitely agree with the lack of education model.

It does not remind me of Emmett Till. White racists of the 50s were an entirely different situation and wholly different attitudes for wholly different reasons.

This is Islamic by nature and by specific culture. These people are not part of the modern world. - The modern world is entirely separate from their world-view and upbringing.
What goes on there is horrendous; but it also begs questions about how far this kind of attitude and world-view permeate through the larger Muslim world.

We know there is a terrorism problem. We know it exists because of a perceived clash of cultures.

This girl clashed with the culture - how far and how big does this problem go? How far will it go? How far will 'they', the terrorists, take it?

These kinds of incidents bring another question - which this Pat Condell raises, that is: Is there an active drive to convert the world to Islam?

Are Muslim communities in "western countries" being expanded, purposefully for that end? Is there a plan and a hope that the world should become Islamic?

If there is, are they thinking to create a world like the one that buried this girl?

http://www.infowars.com/u-s-soldier-waterboarded-his-own-daughter-4-because-she-...
There's seriously screwed up people all over the place.

I thought I'd interject for the younger or non- acronym-savvy current readership a translation of FUBAR - "Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition"

:-}

...not to be confused with FUBU - For Us By Us - gangstah wear of the 90's.

You're forgetting about the women who get their genitalia mutilated by members of their cultural environment.

Along with being horrendous, horrid, terrifying, inhumane, and completely unimaginable. That poor, poor child!!

Yup. I.5 million innocent Iraqis deliberately killed by U.S. racist troops. That is the true legacy of the U.S.A.

200 killings a year makes you want to exterminate all Muslims?
You aren't peaceful, you're irrational and hateful.

And as for your heroes, Richard and Leonidas, were basically tyrants.
Richard, as every other king at that time, was intolerant of heretics. And Leonidas practiced slavery along with all the other Spartans.

Turn off the TV and pick up a history book.

I think his point really was simply "The Turks suck". and "A shame something cant be done about it". Then he brought up some mechanisms that were employed in the past.--------Now ,......The Turks DO suck. Nothing will be done about it. They wont be charging into th EU real soon,,,,,,but thats about it.
But me,...I'm a Kurd advocate. I may have a bias,...and I wish something COULD.

No, the Turks don't suck. The Turkish government sucks, in the same sense that the US gov. sucks. The Turkish people are just like us, and we're no saints.

And if Islam is evil, the US military must be diabolically evil, in terms of who's killed more innocent people.

When I say "The Turks",..I am not stating or implying that EVERY SINGLE PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL TURKISH CITIZEN "sucks and has always sucked "SINCE BIRTH AND WITH EVERY BREATH THEY HAVE AND WILL EVER TAKE. This statement was said in the same mode as, for examples,.. "Big Oil" sucks,...or "The Catholic Church" sucks,...or "Toyota" sucks,....whatever. Read "The Collective Body Doing Business as "X",...sucks. I can easily understand people in Germany,...for example saying "Americans suck". ( They probably do not mean they revile our suckling infants). It would mean that they DO hold the citizens of the state ACCOUNTABLE in the eyes of the world for the actions of the collective. And as for "Islam",....I am not making any universal statements about it. Turkey,...in particular,....has some "issues" I think.

your right about everything except the t.v.. i threw mine out. i chose those warriors because of their history of killing persians. am i irrational? i see the corruption of humanity by islam and i fear for the future. muslims are greater in number than all of america and europe put together. i do not see a future where man goes to the stars but instead forced to crawl back into the caves.

how can you have a iq statistic for a 3rd world country. doesnt make sence.

I think he may be trying to demonize Muslims to make the Palestinian genocide more palatable. What's your guess?

And one of them escaped! Oh, never mind. It's just an ignorant American spewing garbage on the Current website.

Absolute Bullshit.
Show me a reference.
I doubt over 17% of Middle Eastern men have even taken an IQ test, and that doesn't mean they're retarded.

Nah. Really,........not every damn thing is about the "palestinians".

Since most people, regardless of affiliation have an IQ of about 70, we can safely feel that the percentage is very much higher.

I'm going to let you in just so you know. No one here that I know of has any respect for the Muslim faith. When posters here say Islamic nations should be nuked, it makes me think back to when other religious or ethnic groups were slated for extermination. Did they have just cause also? Did they know something we have forgotten?

Never would have happened under Saddam Hussein's control.

First off- Allah means God. Same God as the Christian's, same God as the Jew's.

Second, if you are trying to say that Islam is not peaceful compared to say- Christianity, what do you have to say about the murder of abortion physician, Dr. Tiller?

Oh yeah, christian nuts kill - so it's ok for a huge percentage of Muslim men to kill women when it looks like they might lose full control?

That seems to be perfectly fine with you - is that it?

I guess killing gives them power - right? Kind of Allah's way of compensating for the ignorant society and culture they live in - is that it?

Is that how it is with Muslim men?

You think they could be - smarter? You think Allah might do a little better?

The creator of the whole universe - and this is his deal?

I afraid I think that the whole culture that produces this kind of girl-killing is sick - a vile, ugly sickness and stain upon the world.

That's what I think.

No, what they did is terrible. I never said it was okay. But your generalization that all Muslim people are the same, and they are all terrible, is ignorant.
The only blanket statement that would be fair to make is that crazy people do stupid things. But for you to even think that anyone that is Muslim is like a few backwater people in Turkey- is just plain ignorant. And thats a fact.

Can you judge Christianity by the actions of abortion clinic bombers and pedophile priests?

You're hatred of Islam is not rational.

There's a whole lot of "backwater people" all over the world - and they seem to find the same song in their repertoire - burn girls who defy the authority of the man.
How come the stoning? The burning? the whipping?

How every Muslim starts up with the same "oh, it only those very few'

No - it isn't. It's a whole lot. How big a percentage is this attitude? That's a question.

Are Muslims saying it is only very isolated and hardly found anywhere, because to look at it might mean that one would have to start thinking seriously about doing something to create change?

I think all religion is bullshit. I gave up on catholicism long before i had any hatred toward islam.

Hi - Read it again - your statement is not what was said. As long as otherwise good people can keep making excuses, they won't have to think further about it. It's other people, other religions, those 'crazy people' - not me and not my religion.

Your argument says, 'we're fine and beautiful' - while avoiding the open boil on your face. There is a real question you should think about, how big is that boil? IS it nothing at all, something off to side, as you have been saying - or is it larger? If so, how large? When does it unavoidably stain your own life? How large a problem does the negative aspects within Islam have to be before it becomes a true burden for Muslims to carry?

These are all incredibly few and far between incidents. Just as Christianity has different levels of tolerance, so does Islam. Actions like this do happen, but they don't speak for an entire people.