Ideas vs. Insults: Tips for Writing Intelligent Arguments

Actually, I wish I never found out about his head injury because every single time I see something he posted I want to tell people to ignore him because he's damaged goods, but I don't. Somehow I don't.

Uh, I think you just DID. :)

Just remember, attacking a person instead of their argument is considered an ad hominem attack, and is considered out-of-bounds in 'real' debates.

Thank you and I'm sorry I haven't written more. Of course I must punch a clock to make a living, and lately, my job has consumed more time than usual. But I promise, there is more to come.

Which didn't stop the Nazis from using the pseudo-science of Eugenics (which was based on evolution) to justify cleansing the races with gas camps. Another example: frontal lobotomies were considered legitimate treatment for decades; now no self-respecting neurologist would consider it.

Point being, science is no absolute answer; there are always going to be newer, better "facts" in the future. So even a fact-based argument MAY be fallacious, even if it made a lot of sense at the time.

Actually in the "broader reality" it is more accurate to say "facts without the proper context are cheap"

In the post-modern world that developed after the Enlightenment it was shown through the wave/particle experiements with light that the world isn't absolutely pre-given and totally objective that it also depends partially on the perspective that you use.

So that Occam's Razor isn't just the simplest theory that explains only the evidence that you want to look at, it is the simplest theory that explains ALL the evidence that has been gathered.

That is why some of the points made was so important. "--Do some fact checking, read the bills, the text of the speeches or the reports and use these facts to support your conclusions. --Don't ignore the opinions or research of others"

To use your example of global warming a lot of the facts used in arguments against it lack the proper context. Such as the recent segment on the Daily Show when Assif Manvi used a graph of the temperature from only August to Febuary to show a cooling trend"

In the example of the Nazi extremes, evolution was taken out of context since their version of "the good of the species" was leaving out the good of the individual since the species can't exist without individuals make them up just like bodies can't exist without the cells that make them up

In the case of lobotomies, the therapists at the time took the separate parts of the brain out of context and made the mistake of assuming that operations on one part wouldn't effect the rest.

So that in looking for the truth of any given arguments, it is more effective to find the facts that cover the widest circumstances and have the most support for them.

Not just any facts that have little relevance.

Good Point

The good thing about Current is there are options to avoid that since they allow you to upload webcam or edited video that shows body language, tone and inflections.

Too bad more people don't take advantage of that though since it does help communicate more fully.

I agree with you about the new forum style. I've even found some post times out of order with the before and after comments. It just seems more logical for them to run downward from first to last as we ordinarily read things.

There is that "Display" tab where you can choose to sort the comments by "Newest, Oldest or Popular' You can read them from first to last by clicking on Oldest.

But you are right about the replies sometimes being out of order in this format it does make it harder to follow.

But I suppose that was another compromise for the "Many ADHD members on Current" since apparently using the twirl down menu to show the replies in the other format was too much for them so they never read them.

This way they are all out in the open making them easier to see but sometimes harder to follow when they are out of order. Par for the course that they fix one bug and it makes another.

Thanks

There is a filter that displays the oldest comments first . But the default view is Newest first whereas I am arguing that the default should be oldest first and the people that want to see the newest comments should have to use the filter. I don't think many people would use the filter either way, so making the oldest comments appear first by default would probably cut down on at least some of the ADD posters who post one liners without reading any of the discussions or other comments.

I wouldn't count on that since it didn't stop them before when the default WAS the oldest, with "ADD posters who post one liners without reading any of the discussions or other comments," they would do that regardless of the format.

Another incentive that would motivate better them to pay more attention would be needed than just that.

Wow, all that without one period but actually I consider rambling on to be a style of prose and in fact if you read Falkner you will probably go a little crazy trying to keep up with the way he rambles on page after page without ending a sentence or breaking his thought process but that's just Falkner's style and if you can tolerate his continual flow of words and thoughts you might very much appreciate his story telling ability and literacy approach as so many others have and understand why his works are classics . . .Period and thanks for the inspiration

You're very welcome. I was just having a little fun there.

psst. That's not what trolls look like.

That's a good point, but an even more disturbing trend is some people seem to think that facts don't even matter and that popularity and ratings are a much more important measure.

yeah i try to refrain from voting based on political bias, but cant say that i havent done that

Isn't it the truth that the facts don't know the facts. It really just depends on how many people you can get to agree with you.

"Every is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts" It is what you have evidence to prove, not how many people you can get to agree with you

No. I understand the scientific method, and I do my best to employ it.
When I cannot myself employ the scientific method, I use data gathered using the scientific method, that are peer-reviewed and published by credible organizations.

If you are talking about matters of opinion, there is no such thing as fact. However, there is such a thing as objective truth when talking about matters of data.

For instance- the number of people who died in the past 9 years on US soil from terrorist attacks = ~3,000
The number of people who died on US soil from curable disease due to an inability to pay, = ~243,000

81 times the number of people who have died from terrorist attacks have died from an inability to pay medical bills.
Clearly a lack of medical insurance is a bigger threat to our lives than terrorism.

I don't disagree. I was speaking to the broader reality. These days it seems like everyone has "proof" for their reasoning. Multiple studies to draw from, on either side of an argument. It has become increasingly difficult to sift through the bs because everything is labeled as "fact. Global warming is an example.

My point is, facts are cheap. With the proliferation of the internet everyone has sources to back up their position. I found this interesting;

"In 1687, serious thinkers began to take for granted the idea that objective truth could be gained through the methods of science and the unbiased use of reason. Because science and reason came to be seen as the only sure way to shed light on the darkness of ignorance, this period became known as the Enlightenment. Scientists like Isaac Newton became heroic figures, searching for objective truth about the universe and applying scientific methodology to its study."

Global Warming/Climate Change IS a fact. There are tons of evidence backing up the facts and over 98% of the worlds scientists say it is true. There is only a hand full of people who disagree. I recommend you watch some of the National Geographic documentaries on climate change if you want the facts.

You can try, it depends on the methods, incentives and motivations that you use.

Doesn't mean that you'll succeed but at least some will rise to the challenge, hopefully enough to be worth it.

My guess is that it depends on what browser is being used.

Yeah its probably your browser

If you get the red underline you can usually right click on the word and options for correctly spelled words will pop up.

Yes, I see that on my Mac, but do not see it when I am on my PC at work. I was just curious as to whether it was site based or browser based. It looks like it is browser based.

I basically agree with your premise but I won't say presentation is everything. I've heard some pretty profound ideas clumsily expressed by a seriously undereducated person. One thing I am concerned about is the decrease in continual thought flow and proper spelling brought about through the use of computers. I'm afraid that because of typing "U" instead of "you", etc. accurate spelling is going to hell, especially for young people.

;8) AFAIK it went to hell long b4 that IMHO some forgot it ASAP after school and AAMOF some never learned it anyway BTW though FWIW most can adapt sooner or l8tr and still communicate the 411 w/o loss of meaning thx. :>))~~

LOL . . .If I knew what you just said I'd probably say something that pertains to it. I think my generation might be different than yours and if so we still (wants) to use words. Not understanding your vocabulary and/or your music is an age-old situation. :)

Oh! I totally agree with the spelling. Especially excessive use of acronyms! But yeah presentation isn't always everything, hence the 'sometimes.' A good idea can come from anywhere regardless of intelligence level. But a little proofreading wouldn't hurt.

Recently I heard some teachers say that instead of listening to lectures students are bouncing all over the place watching their computers. As a result some instructors are trying to ban computers from the class room which is an up-hill battle. Also I've heard that many kids are graduating with a sorry level of English skills because they don't think it is important anymore. I guess it's like kids not learning basic math skills because they can punch in the problem and get answers from a computer without really thinking about how the answer was derived at. I'm a word person so I morn the loss of good reading, writing and speaking.

My generation still had only typewriters, when I was born the Berlin Wall wasn't even built. That's what I meant by adapting to changing methods *wink*

It's "mourn". :) Sorry, I just found that really funny. I hope you have a good sense of humor. Somebody corrected one of my grammatical errors on another post when I was ranting about the decline of the English language and I thought it was hysterical.

LOL, I even had to correct this one.

Huh?

A case in point in how the new format for showing replies is hard to follow. The way it should've gone was:

wayseeker:
One thing I am concerned about is the decrease in continual thought flow and proper spelling brought about through the use of computers. I'm afraid that because of typing "U" instead of "you", etc. accurate spelling is going to hell, especially for young people.

Argon18:
8) AFAIK it went to hell long b4 that IMHO some forgot it ASAP after school and AAMOF some never learned it anyway BTW though FWIW most can adapt sooner or l8tr and still communicate the 411 w/o loss of meaning thx. :>))~~

wayseeker:
LOL . . .If I knew what you just said I'd probably say something that pertains to it. I think my generation might be different than yours and if so we still (wants) to use words. Not understanding your vocabulary and/or your music is an age-old situation. :)

Argon18
My generation still had only typewriters, when I was born the Berlin Wall wasn't even built. That's what I meant by adapting to changing methods *wink*

My guess is that spelling shorthand and chat speak is a lot easier to adapt to than having replies out of order since that decreases continual thought flow a lot more.

I think using slang and short-cuts with everyday usage on computer or not, is a natural thing to do if all parties are in agreement on the meaning of the shortened phrases and words. I guess I'm lazy because I don't want to keep learning the latest codes inserted into my conversations because someone else is maybe too lazy to adhere to the spelling of words as they are presented in the dictionary. In other words I'm uncomfortable with the rules being changed in mid-sentence so to speak but that's my problem. At this point I realize I'm not doing well at getting my deeper point across so I'll just acknowledge that there's formal writing and there's informal writing and shut the heck up.

That is another good thing about that new fangled interwebs, it makes it easy to look up "the latest" of everything.

To "google" it, is now a verb, imagine that?

Just like new words are always added to dictionaries to let languages evolve, isn't that swell, groovy and radical?

http://thought.pro

About my deeper point I spoke of Argon and thanks for listening. I'm not an old man trying to avoid change. As a lover of literature I see language as beautiful, breathing and changing. But I think short cuts like OMG are not a creative or beautiful change. They are choppy and repetitious and uncreative and I hope they don't keep breaking up words and phrases like this because it damages the aesthetic properties of the written thought. Now I'll keep my promise to shut the heck up and really shut the heck up.

A lot depends on the intent, if it is trying to be helpful and positive people will forgive spelling and vocabulary. But if the intent is to insult and only distort negatively then they'll jump on it

I believe you contribute a great deal to the Current conversation. Also I appreciate the notices I receive saying I might be interested in a certain post. They are usually about something I'm interested in so we seem to be of like mind.

I don't care what anyone says. I adore it when you interject
(o) (o) BOOBIES into any conversation. ;)

It is a good idea to have a series since a lot of people seem to need help with it

I hope your efforts to increase the quality of Current discussion is successful. Thank you for trying.

Thank you wayseeker & Aragon18

penetration. ha.
*chuckles to self*
silly perverted clown!

meh, i need help with my writing skills too

The major problem is that a lot of people can't recognize the difference between a fact and an opinion.

I'd go along with expressing an opinion when used with qualifiers as you suggested but that hasn't been the case in a lot of the posts here.

Many people don't seem to understand the difference between conversing, debating and arguing. In a debate as in college or between candidates personal insults and snap judgments are out of order. If more commenters understood and adhered to these rules it would be a lot more pleasant and meaningful.

That was where the idea for the Skype Debate Group got started but it hasn't gotten the effort put into it as yet.

http://current.com/items/91865360_the-rules-draft-1.htm

Maybe if people were to learn more about the differences then they might see the value and get it off the ground

+^'d

J/K. Thanks for elevating the discussion, lucasives!

::giggle:: Naughty, naughty

There is plenty of evidence to support that theory, some have even admitted that they just get off on arguing and don't care about the facts at all.

Yeah, you can usually tell who's posting just for the sake of eliciting a response with a volatile flame, and who's post their honest, heart-felt beliefs (however wrong they may be). It's no surprise that some people will register multiple user IDs just to "team up" and try to "win" their side (and mods usually can compare recorded IP's to look for indentical addresses).

I hated to see the voting element included, as it's like troll-bait, a lure for trolls: these types LOVE to vote (as if it matters). They cannot debate in a fair fight using logic, so rely on multiple user IDs to vote others down, etc. Stoopid (sic)....

I think it's important to protect the integrity of a discussion board, as having to wade thru all of the purely trolling posts discourages legit posters from adding content. It's a bit like a neighborhood covered with graffiti, which only decreases property values.