Pope under fire for transfer, letter on sex abuse

I hope you're right!!

so the answer to pedophilia is marriage? I think there are more than a few pedophiles out there that are married and their marriage hasn't stopped them.

The question is did celibacy turn these men into pedophiles or did they have that tendency to begin with in which case did they either give into that temptation or willingly put themselves into a situation where they could indulge their desire?

From my armchair, I'd say that yes, celibacy leads to higher rates of sexual perversion. It isn't healthy to not have an outlet for those urges - few would dispute that.

Of course, orthodox catholicism's idea of a sex life isn't what modern society would call "healthy." When you take a hard look at the rules and the reasoning behind them, you see how outdated it all is. Let priests marry, stop telling catholics they have to repent if they enjoy sex or masturbation, or else they'll go to hell. Let them use family planning techniques. I think this all a big part of the problem.

I hadn't considered that some guys might become priests because of the opportunity to molest little boys. Good catch there. Either way, the church should not be trying to cover it up.

of course they shouldn't cover it up though we don't know the full story ie do these priest have influence from their families to buy silence?

Anyway, your notion of celibacy turning people perverted is insulting to those who have chosen a celibate lifestyle. You are basically suggesting that celibates are sexual deviates who might or will turn to pedophilia to slake their lust.

Your notion of marriage to solve pedophilia and celibacy as a cause of it is rather insulting to men, women, and celibates. Is a woman just a vessel for a man to "deposit" his sexual lust upon to prevent him from pursuing perverted pleasures?

I'm no psychologist but I think pedophilia is a bit more complex problem that can be solved with a simple marriage except for those who live their lives by simplistic regurgitated soundbites.

Did I say that being celibate turns you perverted? Did I say marriage is the catch-all vaccine against pedophilia? I said there's probably a corellation there which makes sense. It's not groundbreaking to say that a healthy sex life leads to better emotional health. There's a reason you hear about way more catholic priests touching little boys than you do members of any other christian sect. You're acting like I'm the first guy who suggested priests should be allowed to marry.

Do you think that maybe some people join the clergy when they are young, only to find later in life that celibacy was not such a good idea? That's not choosing celibacy, that's choosing the clergy and then being forced to choose between celibacy and leaving the clergy. Celibacy should not be mandatory. It causes more problems than it solves.

I'm not sure about how i feel about people who legitimately choose celibacy. Personally I think it's silly and I don't see the point, but if you want to do it, hey, what does it matter to me. But if you are doing it because your religion told you you'd be impure otherwise, then i am afraid I am going to have to laugh at you.

people choose to become priests or nuns and thus celibate. They aren't forced to become so like younger sons were in the Middle Ages so your notion of mandatory celibacy causing such perversion as pedophilia kind of falls apart. Don't want to be celibate? Don't become a priest or quit if it is too much for you.

"There's a reason you hear about way more catholic priests touching little boys than you do members of any other christian sect."

Yes I would call it partly a result of over-saturation of media sensationalism backed up by pop cultural jokes but pedophilia is not the solely the domain of the Catholic Church. Nor has all the cases been about true pedophilia. Those "little" boys you talk about, many of them were in their teens which the ancient Greeks that our society lauds were all over literally and thought nothing wrong about.

In either case whether it be pedophilia or homosexual love for a minor, I don't see how marriage will magically cure these deep-rooted psychological problems. I wouldn't be surprised if many of those priests charged with pedophilia or sex with a minor were themselves the victims of such when they were young as these things tend to be cylindrical in nature - the abused becoming the abuser.

Okay, so what do you think about priests being allowed to marry? Do you think they should have the option? Do you think it will help this situation (even slightly), have a negative impact, or have no affect whatsoever? I'm honestly curious.

I think someone who is sexually attracted to prepubescent youths needs serious counseling not a wife. And those who are attracted to adolescent males are homosexual so marriage won't help them unless it's to another man.

Sexuality isn't that black and white. Very few people are 100% straight or gay (see the Kinsey reprot). I think people have natural sexual urges, and they will try to fulfill those urges in a socially acceptable way if possible. If that's not possible, some will turn to less socially acceptable means available to them.

you kind of defeated your argument then since as you say sexuality isn't that black and white so how will something like marriage curb these wayward tendencies? They could just easily be married and still do these things. There are married pedophiles out there you know. Marriage is not the simple cure-all to this problem

Please stop saying "cure all." Also please look up "straw man argument."

If sexuality is not "black and white," then someone could be sexually fulfilled by either a wife or a small boy. Allowing priests to marry gives them access to a socially acceptable outlet for their natural sexual desires, which I believe leads to greater emotional health, which I believe is important.

Once again, I just think marriage will lead to a _decrease_ in this problem. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.

I think we are both writing from very strong and personal points of view. I will tell you mine. I balk at religion and I think it causes more harm than good. I think that at times it stands for ignorance and bigotry. I think catholicism may be the worst example of this. And I think the church's attitude toward sexuality is arcane. As a result, I have strong views on celibacy - I think it's very silly and offers no real or tangible benefit.

Perhaps if you are willing to share, we can understand why we disagree so strongly.

the only straw here is between your ears as you clearly don't know what a straw man is but if you feel the need to throw that out to make your argument seem stronger in comparison than I shall not stop you. And I only said "cure all" once so I can't stop saying something I only said once. Look up insecurity. And while you are at it look up the word arcane which many people today associate with wizards on World of Warcraft. Archaic would be a better choice of word.

You began your argument blaming christianity itself for subscribing to "arcane" ideas of not allowing priests to marry though other christian denominations don't follow this practice.

I have not been straw-manning your arguments but attacking their implications that pedophilia is a result of priest celibacy. My argument to the contrary is that pedophilia is a more complex issue and that the fact pedophiles are not all celibate or unmarried would point to this conclusion. If anything, marriage can often be a cover-up. Look up sham marriages for hidden homosexuals especially in Hollywood.

Priests are more easily singled-out targets in this because of their unmarried state so when such cases come to light some people jump to the rash decision that it was celibacy that led them to pedophilia.

What many are ignoring in their anti-religious crusade is the similarity in other type incidences whether with children or adolescents or with other adults is the authoritarian nature around them. Priests molesting children and teens under their supervision is no different than the countless teachers, doctors, police, and other authority figures who have done the same. This type of sexual assault is part of human nature (the worst part) - the strong taking advantage of the weak through force, fear, coercion, persuasion, temptation.

The strong will use whatever means necessary to achieve their purpose by using their age, size, experience, money, authority, etc... It's basically predator-based nature. Wolves don't go after wolves, they go after sheep and that's what these types are essentially; however many of them were sheep themselves at one point and that should be remembered. It's cyclical, the abused becomes the abuser.

Another part of human nature is to defend its own against attacks hence coverups because also following human nature, people who dislike another person, organization, institution, political party, or country will often use anything they can to attack it. You revealed your bias towards religion and Catholicism in general with your off-tangent remark:

"I balk at religion and I think it causes more harm than good. I think that at times it stands for ignorance and bigotry. I think catholicism may be the worst example of this. And I think the church's attitude toward sexuality is arcane."

so it would be appear that it is really religion rather than this particular case which bothers you most but that behavior is nothing new as we see it all the time between democrats and republicans in the US media. This incidence is just another bit of ammo to sling as pedophilia is not rooted in ignorance and bigotry. Your whole argument could be seen and subsequently dismissed as simply kneejerk.

But behavior like you presented here is why there is that feeling to coverup or dilute the situation. For every abusive priest, there are hundreds if not thousands of honest hardworking ones who would never think to do such a thing. The similar could be said of many groups but their image can be tarnished even by a few bad apples because many people cannot willingly or unwillingly see this. This is why so many organizations from companies to schools to governments to religions to glee clubs will try to cover up such embarrassing things because they don't want to be tainted with association.

However the problem comes when protecting those bad apples is detrimental to the organization. This is where the Church ultimately failed. In trying to hide its skeletons in its own kneejerk fashion, it now makes it look like a whole graveyard. They should have defrocked those priests or if lack of evidence at the time at least put them in positions where they could not abuse their authority.

My God is this insanity ever going to stop?

I am Catholic and I recognize the evils that my Church has committed against humanity, but one truly disturbing thing I learned about the mormons is that they were holding secret baptism for Jews killed in the concentration camps believing this is the only way the murder Jews souls could reach heaven. How disrespectful and insane this practice is...what's een more disturbing is that my home states former Governor and one time Republican Presidential hopeful Mitt Romey engaged in this twisted practice as a youth. But hey us Catholics believe we turn bread into flesh and wine into blood and consume the blood and body of Jesus.

So you are telling me, the only way Mother Teresa can get into heaven now is if she gets baptized by the Mormons through their "Baptismal for the Dead." They say In Paradise, she doesn't have to accept it, due to her free agency, but her acceptance of it will be required for her to get into God's Kingdom.

After all of the Christ like living that she did, totally giving of herself to the sick and afflicted, the poor and the needy as Christ himself did, it really sucks that her making it into heaven is contingent upon this one deed she overlooked.
Hmmmmmm!

I see so many that live lives lacking in the Christ like mannerisms but they have been baptized so their way to heaven is more certain. I can say only one thing here: Religion is a man-made concoction that only serves man's whims, bias and agendas.

If you can wear funny hats or costumes, be judgmental without judging, worship in extravagant buildings, perform rituals, and cannibalize the flesh and blood of Christ even if it is only symbolic, you have yourself a religion and hell owns those that don't comply.

First off I'm certain Jews (or any non christian) would be revolted by this practice. Especially when Christians themselves were in a large part responsible for what happened to the Jews in Germany. Second, it is deluded, almost beyond comprehension. Only a christian would have the arrogance to do such a thing. Then again I suppose it's better than giving them a choice to convert or die like they did in the past.

DId you even read what I wrote. I wasn't claiming the practice of Mormons secret practice of their "baptismal for dead" was a ceremony that I supported but instead of insanity of many religions

Bking74, I did read every word and I knew exactly what you meant. My response was intended to be full hearted sarcasm aimed at their laughable practice you pointed out and the absurdity of it. I fully support you on your comment. I should have perhaps written it a bit differently. My bad

No problem, brother..thanks

I am not going to insult your father by saying this story is pure bullshit and we can't deny the fact that many Catholic priest have sexual abused innocent young boys and that the Catholic Church attempted to cover up the scandal by moving the priest to a different church instead of turning them over to law enforcement. But to say that the mere nature of having the calling to become a priest you must be a defective sick fuck is just ignorant. I am Irish Catholic and went to Catholic school all my life and was taught by both nuns and Jesuit Brothers not only did I not witness any abuse, there has never been even a single whispered rumor of abuse at my Church. And I grew up in Boston which if you have been following this tragedy you know Boston was ground zero when this abuse was first exposed. I am proud to Catholic and my faith in my God has helped me live though some extremely dangerous encounters. There is nothing wrong with believing in God.

I agree that you don't have to be a "defective sick fuck" to have a calling to be a priest. However, the Catholic Church is the perfect place to hide if you are. Specifically because no one will wonder why you're not married, it provides the person with access to innocents who have been taught to trust the priest, and if you get caught, you're not punished! What more could a pedophile ask for?

I went to Catholic school also and never had a problem either. The only problem I had there was a nun who would actively go looking to see if my father was in church with me. The reason being he was protestant. I just find that to be ignorant, and it's sad to know that entire neighborhoods in Belfast are fenced off from each other to this day. Back to your point though. The way the Catholic church conducts itself in dealing with disgraceful matters is really where the problem lies.

Its so sad now that the scandal surrounding the Catholic Church and it's criminal cover-up has now so polluted the American conscience that an innocent photo of the pope hugging a group of children causes people to automatically assume the worst.

From who?

No it doesn't make any sense and as a Catholic it disgusts me.

Does any religion make any sense to anybody? God wrote no books, only man and his impressions and interpretations of some spiritual moment or suspected spiritual moment.

The religion has the right to exist, the pedophilia can't be justified but that's not a problem with the religion but with the Church. I actually do think that priests should be allowed to marry, and I believe that sooner or later the catholics will understand this

Pedophilia and rape are not mutually exclusive. When people - in this case Catholic priests - engage in sexual abuse on prepubescent children, it is pedophilia, and, by extension, rape.

Pedophilia is a physiological term,rape on the other hand is a criminal term.Just saying throw them all in jail.

The arrogance of the Catholic Church believing that they are above the law is disgusting and makes me ashamed to be a Catholic.

fucking sicko

humorless dimwit.

Don't worry that your post has a -4... Only Catholic-loving Catholics have voted the comment down. The rest of the world probably chuckled at your joke =)

Yeah, because the revered silence is really working out well for the kids. WTF?

P.S. No matter how much "good" the Church does, it doesn't get a free pass to abuse or rape little boys. Sorry.

So we should ignore the fact that priests are getting away with molesting children because the Church has done a lot of good things?
Yeah, that makes sense...

Yeah, its totally Bilderbergs molesting thousands of kids and then FRAMING these poor innocent priests. DAMN DIRTY APES!

No mater what good things the church may have done, the issue is that the Church sets itself up as a symbol of Morality. For the church to do that, and then sink SO low shows that the whole system is hypocritical.

Imagine a Vegetarian who writes books and goes on TV constantly extolling the virtues of vegetables, and condemning anyone who eats meat.

Then, he's found shoving his face full of burgers at Steak n Shake.

It's not that eating a burger is bad, or that it's wrong to eat vegetables, but the point is the blatant hypocrisy of the institution.

So in answer to your question- no one is trying to destabilize the Church.

The Church is destabilizing itself.

If the Church was open and honest about human sexuality, and the Church advocated sex education, sex counseling, and therapy sessions, then none of this would be a problem; individual pedophile priests would be caught, and be removed from their posts, and go to jail. This would not look bad for the church, just the individuals involved.

But they did not take the open, honest route.

The took the lying, deceitful coverup route.

How can you ignore that, and just pretend we should focus on the good things the Church does, and NOT hold the Church to the same high standards they claim to hold everyone else to?