“States Rights” runs ahead of reason, once again
source: http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2010/03/17/states-rights-runs-ahead-of-reason-once-again/
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- hoosierdaddy
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- Taxes, Constitution, Conservatives, states rights, 1 more
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bking74
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Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people....maybe not quite appropiate for this particular topic. Fundamentally, I am a Federal Employee (or more accurate Federal Property). Sometimes, I lose track of the current State's Right to Self Government and Federal Over sight. I do believe that a common practice used by any lobbying group is fear mongering and a desire to divide and conquer. I had to read the article several times and even though I was able to understand the basics, I also had to accept the fact that I am extremely uneducated and ignorant when it comes to this issue and the various lobbying groups involved. To many of us are just ignorant sheep.
- 1 year ago
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bking74
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Incredulous
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more from the divide and conquer quest
- 1 year ago
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Incredulous
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Saladin
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I don't necessarily disagree with stronger states' rights, to a certain extent, but people that advocate for states' rights need to realize two very important things.
1. It is the Federal Government via the 14th amendment which has given the people freedom of speech, freedom of religion and all that other good stuff. In fact, prior to the 1960's, those kinds of rights basically existed in nothing except good will, which was frequently broken. Even with all of their oppressive institutions like the NSA or the FBI, the Federal Government takes almost no one to court, there are very few people in Federal prisons. Only something like 1% of all prisoners are in a Federal Prison. Contrary to the talking point that states are "laboratories for democracy," the vast majority of the time, it's states that violate peoples' rights. Point in case, Texas Board of Education. Which brings me right on to number...
2. States' rights has been the code word for backwards Southern Policy for well over a century now, just as busing was the key word for integration, "law and order" is the keyword for anti-civil rights and "support the troops" is a codeword for shut your mouth during a war. The cry for state's rights launched the Civil War, in an era when the Federal Government basically didn't fucking exist. It is the battlecry of the subversive, two-faced politician who never says what he really means. I know that's not what a lot of people advocate for today, but you have to keep that in mind because for anyone who has studied this country's history big red alarm bells go off in their head when someone uses that phrase. It's like Christian Nationalism in Germany or something, tread fucking lightly please.
- 1 year ago
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Saladin
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FiatSociety [removed]
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Saladin:
"Federal Government takes almost no one to court "like 1% of all prisoners are in a Federal Prison"
There are a lot of key distinctions you missing in this conclusion. Let me start:
1. The tenth Amendment: "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people"
The Only powers the federal government legally has are those expressed in the constitution and nothing more. State law governs most areas (Consequently there is NO Federal law making Murder illegal. Believe it or not Murder is state crime only governed by State law. ) So a violation of state law will put you in state prison as opposed to federal prison which is usually reserved for federal income tax evasion and other white collar criminals that have violated Congressional laws.
2. The % of people incarcerated in federal prisons does not necessarily correlate with the number of citizens the federal government takes to court. Why? Three reasons: First: 80% of Federal court cases are Civil NOT Criminal. Incarceration is not a remedy for someone found liable in a Civil court case. Secondly: Federal courts can achieve jurisdiction over state law claims.(all they need is subject matter jurisdiction, or diversity jurisdiction or supplemental jurisdiction) Thirdly, with a state's permission the federal government can house federal prisoners in state prison. Alternatively there are privately owned, for-profit prisons, that can house federal prisoners.
3. You are also missing a key distinction between the executive and judicial branches. The F.B.I. (executive branch) in cooperation, with state authorities can enforce state laws. Which will land criminals in the State's judicial system.(normally not a problem except permission is often sought after the fact).
Next let’s examine the idea we need to apply the Civil war and the 1960's to Federalism and States’ rights in 2010.
If you are going to compare federalism from the Civil war era and 1960's you can't just look at the states from then and now. You also have to compare the power of the federal government from then to now. As you said during the civil war the Federal Government "basically didn't fucking exist."
You also said in 1960's States violated most rights and that may be so. But let’s fast forward 50 years to 2010 and look at the scales of federalism to see where the balance of power lies. For the following reasons I am going to say it is dangerously unbalanced in favor of the federal governed:
1. The interstate commerce clause in the constitution has been so broadly interpreted by the federal courts to give the legislative and executive branches nearly limitless power.
Case in point: Wickard v. Filburn The Supreme court ruled the interstate commerce clause gave the federal government the authority to regulate how much wheat an Ohio farmer could grow. The U.S. Department of Agriculture wanted to suppress the supply of wheat to raise prices and through some Constitutional gymnastics the Court said that when an individual in a state grows food this affects interstate commerce thereby giving the Federal government the power to micromanage how much of a crop you can grow on your own farm..2. Federal Administrative Agencies. The federal government is on auto pilot. Administrative agencies fly in the face of “separation of powers concept.” They have legislative, executive, and judicial powers. Administrative agencies make regulations that have the force of law. They police the people looking for violations of their regulations And they conduct administrative hearings and decide disputes.(these decisions are subject to appeal to the federal courts but the standard for review is hefty and courts almost always defer to the agencies judgment.) Such concentration of power tips the scales of federalism even more in favor of the federal government.
3. The Patriot Act- warrentless wire taps, power to indefinitely detain, expanded power to subpoena private information. NO state has these police powers to so blatantly violate your rights. The Patriot act breaks the scale in favor of the federal government.
For the above reasons the scales of federalism are out of balance. A revival of states rights is necessary. In 2010, the above reasons are driving the states rights movement, not slavery from the civil war, or pro segregation from the 1960s.
One more note:
“Laboratories for democracy” is not a mere talking point. It’s a legal and governmental theory that was first summized by Justice Brandeis and it is highly appealing to progressives as the following article by Ralph Nader demonstrates: - 1 year ago
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FiatSociety [removed]
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bking74
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Saladin:
I am a life long resident of Boston and "Busing" was a disgusting, evil, inhuman part of the fabric of Boston's History for ever. A bloody, racist stain that should never be forgotten. I have to disagree with you completely about "Support the Troops", meaning "shut your mouth during the war"...I don't doubt many ignorant people confuse opposing the war mean you don't the troops. At least, I can assure you that all we ask is that you support the troops (simply by hoping that we return safety to our friends and families.)
- 1 year ago
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bking74
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bking74
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FiatSociety:
I realize this is not a popular opinion and I support the Patriot Act, I realize the ease this can be abused and the just how dangerous it can become. I know on current I am considered extremely militant (betting a lot worse)...but the only the Federal Government has the resources and access to intelligence and technology to effectively use the Patriot Act to aid in National Security. If states had these same sweeping (police is the wrong word) security powers, we would see more abuse not less.
- 1 year ago
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bking74
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JanforGore
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Well, I believe states can do a much better job passing climate change legislation than this federal government will ever do. Maybe even healthcare legislation. Matter of fact, states like New Jersey have done just that regarding climate change, especially in the area of solar power. I have to agree with Dagum on this point even though I don't usually agree with (hIm/her) on many other topics: that this is non partisan. The Founding Fathers as well were very leary of Federal government gaining control over the rights of states to determine what is best for them, and they were hardly right wing Christians. Sometimes one size does not fit all, and there should be a balance between the two. I don't see that now either.
- 1 year ago
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JanforGore
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unimatrix0
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no matter how some try to spin it, "states rights" has long been code for racist and right wing Christian ideology.
- 1 year ago
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unimatrix0
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MoonLoon
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Right on with the right on, "Dagum". How dare we ask for the gub mint to return the money they stole from us? It is impossible for the Feds to pay out more than they take in, unless they choose put us into debt against our will!!! They just apportion it to control various legislators. What a useless pack of hyenas. Sorry to insult the hyena clan!
- 1 year ago
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MoonLoon
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Dagum
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Wow way to open a discussion about "evil" states rights activists with a picture of people waving confederate flags . Because that’s not scare tactics . It really sets the tone for what I am sure is going to be a logical, non-fear driven discussion on federalism.
Despite your own commentary States rights isn't "anti-gummit". It's anti-nationalism. We live in federal system were the scales of federalism are supposed be balanced between the government in Washington and States’ governments. There is a backlash right now because the scales are dangerously unbalanced in favor of the federal government .
Despite attempts to frame it to the contrary, this isn't a partisan issue. As the article mentions “And in some cases, the politics of states’ rights are veering left.” In California they are trying to decriminalize marijuana. Even if they do, the federal government’s DEA will still go into California and prosecute those with marijuana unless there is a revival of States’ rights. .
Everyone from every political ideology should advocate for states right. If you believe in a Socialist democracy, it’s going to be a hell of a lot easier to convince your state legislature to enact policy in line with your beliefs then it is to convince Congress and the entire country to take action. .
States are the laboratories of democracy. If your state adopts your ideals and political beliefs and they work, then other states may emulate them. However if the federal government is too strong, they can pass laws and regulations nullifying your states’s laws that furthered your political beliefs.
In regards to the commentary about States that get federal money. Well of course the States would accept their OWN money back that was taken from their citizens through federal taxation!
- 1 year ago
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Dagum
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Dagum
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Dagum:
The article description was edited from "states that accept bundles of fed $$" to "that get more in Fed $$ than they pay out"
- 1 year ago
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Dagum
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slarabee [removed]
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Dagum: This comment was removed as a violation of community guidelines.
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slarabee [removed]
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Dagum
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slarabee:
The thesis of my argument is not which region recieves more federal tax money :[
- 1 year ago
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Dagum
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slarabee [removed]
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Dagum: This comment was removed as a violation of community guidelines.
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slarabee [removed]
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Dagum
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slarabee:
"As to the rest of your argument, there is no doubt that the term states rights has been ?used to repeatedly try to deny the minority citizenry in the south their rights; i.e. civil rights, voting rights, abortion rights etc..."
That doesn't; address the thesis of my argument either.
The thesis being that IN 2010 the scales of federalism are unbalanced.
and conclusion being its beneficial to people from all political stripes for it to be balanced again. - 1 year ago
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Dagum
