Police State Pittsburgh

No one is saying these people are innocent, but there has got to be a better way of doing it. They're using fear tactics, on purpose. There's no way that fear can be limited to the criminal community. How many kids would you expect to go and knock on one of these for help? Now how many do you think would find it fun to throw a rock at it just to see if they could get a way with it? They already see the adults turning away from them
"Saturation patrols don't target specific criminals, or even specific criminal hangouts. Instead, they are dragnets, canvassing whole neighborhoods where police expect to find criminal activity taking place. Not surprisingly, such tactics are more likely to arrest street-level dealers than criminal kingpins... Indeed, what prompted the December patrol was not a gang shootout, a standoff with an armed gunman, or a bomb threat. What prompted the display was an anniversary... Fair enough, say critics of the operation. Except the sweep was carried out in the predominantly African-American neighborhoods of the East End -- and Pokorny had been shot in the western, mostly white suburb of Carnegie, 14 miles away... [T]he raid there just happened to coincide with the date to honor Pokorny."
Maybe it would have helped if they simply used different tactics: They could have introduced the vehicles in a parade or something, then used them the way SWAT was originally used, as an emergency response team, not a quasi-military. It's not like I'm rooting for them to go out unarmed, that would likely be suicide, and definitely stupid, considering their job description, but this is just overkill (no pun intended).
And they know it's only a band aid when the wound is a bullet hole "'Open-air drug sales stop, at least for a few days' after a sweep, says Harper. 'We get feedback from people who are glad to see it because it puts fear into the criminal element. We come in, we make an arrest and we try and make a dent in the neighborhood crime. At the very least, we give the neighborhood a break from the craziness that's going on in the streets.'"
You're telling me that $124,000 on a temporary fix is better than any other option?

I can see your point of view. I think safety first, the welfare of the men putting their lives on the line. Literally being threatened and spit on daily. A person becomes desensitizes after a few months of the craziness they are exposed too. Except, this is time it isn't in a foreign country, it is in our own backyard.

I don't know if the city board or the police force were flipping through the local Sears catalog when they came upon this little gem. Hey Dave, did you see this sweet tank on page 123? haha.

New York is employing military tactics and you might call it strong arm in nature. They go around and take over a random street corner and four or five heavily armed men pile out of a car and just to show people that the police are in charge. It seems to be working because crime is down.

Could the police possibly go in and make a neighborhood watch out of one of hte local citizens and have a little community get together? Absolutely. I still think that the citizens allowing the crime to take place in the first place are the ones at fault and they need to take responsibility for taking back their neighborhood. So the police can then move on to a different neighborhood. It isn't like the police enjoy harrassing these people. The citizens are not innocent and deserve to be arrested for breaking the law. Celebration or not, if it is out of control they need to bring the tank in.

i don't believe ur dealin wiv a full dek!

the problem is our prison system! it does NOT rehabilitate! it perpetuates! they know this and they love it! it means more criminals, means more prisoners, means more money to buy shit like this!

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The tank may be necessary for specific operations, but this is vulgar. "[T]he citizens allowing the crime to take place in the first place are the ones at fault and they need to take responsibility for taking back their neighborhood." Didn't you read about the unarmed, self-motivated group of up to 3 dozen people keeping watch in their neighborhood at night?
Why wasn't something done to keep the situation from escalating to this point? This didn't just happen over night, they had warning. I can't believe that this is the only viable option.
None of your arguments change the fact that they're focusing on the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.

I like to think of it is as a stacked deck, and I have a winning hand every deal, haha.

Just different thoughts on a subject. I just want to hold people in these neighborhoods responsible for their actions. I don't think the police should be held responsible and criticized for the actions of these law breakers. Why don't the police go to neighborhoods that have less crime?

I agree with the prison systems not rehabilitating. The programs that have been introduced were canceled due to funding concerns. It really is big business to incarcerate people and receive money for it. How can we cut costs and do it in the form of a business model.

I think the programs would have a positive impact on the population. Even when we did have the money to spend on these type of programs it is not a popular idea to give money to fix something.

I agree, different perspectives. We can't agree on all our thoughts. The cities across the country will continue to agree with me though. If the citizens break the law, the police will protect themselves in doing so. These citizens are breaking the law and they should be incarcerated. I don't know if they will be rehabilitated, but they will be punished for their crimes.

What are your thoughts about the police in the U.S. carrying firearms? I know that Britian has been successful with carrying only nightsticks. I also wonder if you have been around any of these ghettos or projects?

I already said my piece about cops and their weapons.
I grew up in the ghetto, Polk county, arguably the methamphetamine capitol of the world from '03 to '05. I'm not sure what the statistics are now, but there's still a lot of crime around here, though it tends to be more low-key and the people who tend to get shot around here are typically criminals.
Why is the focus on the popular actions rather then the practical ones? Even you said "I agree with the prison systems not rehabilitating. The programs that have been introduced were canceled due to funding concerns... I think the programs would have a positive impact on the population. Even when we did have the money to spend on these type of programs it is not a popular idea to give money to fix something." How can you still support these actions, knowing they aren't really going to work? Brings me back to my first statement "Sell 2 of these tanks and give the money to the neighborhoods..." And a variation of a previous statement: Just because it's popular, you're not excused for accepting it.
I'm not holding the police force responsible for the actions of criminals, but the police force CANNOT STOP CRIME, they can only react when someone calls and reports a crime. We need to focus on real solutions, not giving people a false sense of security.

$50 an hour is a pittance for what they have to put up with. I can go into many other professions that do far worse than the police do.

How do you propose we protect our citizens and uphold the laws of the state? Do you propose to let these thugs run amok? Do you propose that these upstanding citizens are just wrongly accused by these thugs that are law enforcement officers?

How do you propose not having to bring the tank (bear) out? Can you guarantee that the police will not be threatened, shot at, spit upon, or insulted? I deal with the aftermath of what the police deal with, and you have no idea what you all are trying to promote and protect. These gangs that live in these innocent projects need to be controlled.

If the people don't break the law then the police force wouldn't require the equipment that they deploy. For instance, in Aspen, Colorado you don't find any tanks. Why could this be? Possibly because the citizens are not threatening to kill the police?

We will have to politely disagree on this subject. I am a progressive liberal, and do have some blue dog tendencies when it comes to fiscal responsibility. However, I do enjoy my safety and do deal with gangs, drugs addicts, drunks, domestic abuse, rapes, and child abuse. So tell me again how these people in these neighborhoods are unfairly targeted? Don't break the law and you will not be targeted.

I am sorry you grew up in that environment. So you do have some experience with it, I am surprised you take such a stance. I am going to go out on a limb and state that from your picture that you are a Caucasian young lady that is somewhat innocent/pure. Meaning that you didn't grow up in the middle of the projects and graduated high school gleaning from your posts. You already have an advantage over the lower income people living in the projects. How safe would you be going into one of these neighborhoods alone? If something were to happen to you the police, medical providers, and social worker would ask you what you were doing in the neighborhood? You are increasing your chances of something untoward occurring to you if you put yourself in a situation like this.

"[I]nnocent/pure"? lmao... You have no idea. Please don't make assumptions based on my appearance, for all you know that's the chick I'm pimpin' and I have a penis.
I would be fine walking around in any neighborhood in my hometown, I grew up there. I know too many people. I wouldn't be safe at anytime, in any place, (I doubt anyone can say that) but I stay wary and I try to not be stupid. Police officers, medical providers, and social workers can ask what I was doing there all they want, but it won't change the fact that I lived there. Do you think that just because I'm a cute white girl that I don't know shit from shinola well enough to know if I lived in the fucking ghetto? YOU CAN'T MISS SOMETHING LIKE THAT! You don't know what, if any advantages I had, especially not from a single picture, a handful of posts, and your infallible intuition. Next, are you going to tell me that my life is more valuable then every other resident of "brown town" and I should never leave my home because they like to rape white chicks?

I have gleaned a few things about you. You are more than likely an agnostic or atheist, you are Caucasian and female. You don't trust the police. You have a tattoo of a vampire smurf. You dislike Coco Puffs immensely, but like Conan Obrien? You were raised in Florida and grew up in a diverse high school. You worked in high school. You are addicted to Gilmore Girls and like Fish and Chips.

I am somewhat psychic, don't ask.

I'm Wiccan (worshiper of the Great Placebo), white, female, I have a generalized authority issues (including doctors, employers), my tatoos are none of your concern (not a smurf/vampire anywhere), I love chocolate cereal for some reason, no real attachment to Conan, other than the fact that he has red hair... Born and raised in Fl. Diverse? haha. I've had a job since I was 12. I've never watched an episode of *cough* Gilmore Girls, thank you very much, and I only eat sushi grade fish or fish I've caught myself.
You're a silly goose, not psychic.

jeje...that wuz a poor choice of wordz on my part bro...did not mean to imply u were mentally deficient...on the contrary, ur quite proficient & lucid wiv regardz to ur p.o.v...i juz happen to think that those particular neighborhoods have been hit hard by decades of grinding poverty & that this in turn has been a major factor in the lawlessness there!

I am also gleaning from my questions that you don't work for law enforcement. I am already doing better than Deonne Warwick, hahaha.

I don't know how to fight poverty. There are elements of people not wanting to work. There are other elements of employers being prejudiced based on race and education and experience in the workplace. I just don't think that stealing, drugs, and violence are a way to escape from the projects. The police are only in charge of upholding the law.

Who should be in charge of getting the people out of this impoverished situation? With tax dollars being looked at every day to cut from each state, I doubt that the poverty situation is going to improve. Each state sets its own limit for welfare. They will survive, but will they break the law while surviving?

http://harm.be

Right on, Almibry!
Before I read your reply to CaptB, my first response was to take him to task myself for being such a intrusive ninny. (Perhaps, that in itself, is another unnecessary intrusive male habit.) You, however, (and of course,) handled that with perfect aplomb.
To be fair, judging from the sense of his other posts, although garrulous and misdirected, in this instance, I expect he meant no harm.
Still, it's good to be reminded where our public discourse ends and private lives begin. Thank you for that.

Ok, you don't agree with me. However, the laws and communities in America will continue to do what my line of thought conveys.

Unless you can come up with a constructive way to improve these neighborhoods without police intervention and remove the crime, the police will be forced to uphold the law. Tell your friends to stop breaking the law. Tell them to call the police when they see laws being broken and testify against the perpetrators.

Until then, you just being angry and attacking the police doesn't resolve anything. The corporations are NOT going to help the community, you are right. What to do...stop breaking the law. Simple.

I may be re-stating something that others have stated over and over. But it doesn't hurt to re-emphasize education and hard work are the keys to success. Crime rarely pays off.

I'm gleaning from your comments that you're wasting my time. I hope one day you can at least acknowledge new information and give it fair consideration before you start repeating yourself.

And you cannot fight poverty with a machine gun.

What are your proposals or ideas to help the citizens in this community? They are poor, we can agree with that. They are breaking the law, and the police have to respond. The difference in opinion is at what level of force they should uphold the law. If the citizens have guns and are using them the police have a right to protect themselves and overpower the criminals for the safety of the community. You are stating that the police should not use any force. That a traffic cop with no way of protecting themselves should go in and ask them to stop breaking the law? Possibly not even handcuff them and ask them politely to come down to the police station? If the perpetrator runs away then the police should NOT chase them from possible collateral damage to the community?

Seriously, you are being naive by thinking that any police force is going to do such things. What are your ideas though on getting these people to obey the law? The community can't instill the ability to want to better yourself. We need to eventually get them off of welfare and teach them to fish.

Police fight crime, it is not their responsibility to fight poverty. Different department.

By breaking the law , I suppose you also mean , being at the wrong place at the wrong time , looking a certain way , and being poor or homeless ?

Different department? No shit Sherlock, that's why my first response to you was "Sell 2 of these tanks and give the money to the neighborhoods..." I never once stated that they should go out unarmed, another quote from a previous statement "It's not like I'm rooting for them to go out unarmed, that would likely be suicide, and definitely stupid, considering their job description, but this is just overkill (no pun intended). " Now I know for sure that you are being intentionally stupid. I'm not an authority on solving all of societies ills, but education would be a good place to start. People have choices, but they can't decide to follow a lifestyle that they know nothing about. You're such a waste of my time.

-\/'d for your willful ignorance.

I will concede if there is a crime occurring in a liquor store and a family is in the store that some innocents could be hurt.

There are also mistakes made by the police. One mistake they don't catch though could result in more rapes or murders.

So I still don't think the police are honored enough or respected.

Okay, lets take away the tanks and take lets say $750,000 and try to figure out a way to start an education program to train people on getting a job. What is your target age? What kind of job market do you aim them towards? I seriously do not know where to start. Rather than say I am a waste of time and nonsensical, what can we do to help this community and many others?

Republicans say give the rich tax breaks and they will create more jobs and increase wages (trickle down economics). We know that doesn't work.

The Democrats try to help while receiving so much negative sentiment from the republicans they can hardly pass any legislation unless it benefits the large corporations or the rich.

I know the republicans are against welfare in every form. I actually think welfare is beneficial and necessary. I once benefited from WIC and food stamps while living in D.C. a few years ago. Iti s not easy going to those offices and being mistreated by people.

Will welfare help the people in this neighborhood and prevent crime? Crime is the key here. Eventually you have to ask which neighborhoods are most violent and what social strata make up all this violence. Which equates to race, culture, social status, income, family history.

The courts, police, politicians tough on crime, and society in general will agree with my thoughts. I am liberal and I don't know what to do other than protect the police so they are not harmed. Try to get the people to stop committing crimes.

The program that I think sounds the best to me is to get the police to get to know the people that live in the neighborhood by going door to door and socializing. Not just responding to calls. Really get to know several blocks and have it be there particular area. Where the neighborhood adn the officer establishes a trust with one another. That is the best answer. We can't give the people jobs in an economy where even college grads are desperate.

I don't know about willful lack of knowledge. I just see the results of the crimes after they are committed. So I see a different facet to this equation.

I know you are passionate, as a few other people on this string. There are two sides to this though, and I am trying to look for some common ground to fix this problem.

You are saying it is the police's fault. I seem to be reiterating it is the people for breaking the law.

What I would like to see is the police officer be responsible for a city block or two and go door to door and establish relationships with these people. The high crime areas deserve more attention than a wealthier neighborhood with little crime. We will not be able to get them jobs with our economy suffering. However, if we can establish trust between a police officer or two in their particular neighborhoods and get rid of the bad apples it might help with communication and trust.

I don't have any better ideas other than that. What I don't know if the police in this area have tried this? Or are they just reactionary to calls?

I thought you weren't being willfully ignorant? Re-read my comments. I never said that the officers are fault, I said their techniques are overkill... As for your questions concerning the real solution? You seemed to have answered them already, did you notice?

Remember when the cops WALKED , and got to know people .......

No they didn't but I'd like to think that a large-ish tank could have aided in getting them out of the line of fire. Granted they were totally caught off guard, but we can't change the past, we can only learn from it. We can't expect the worst all the time otherwise none of us would sleep. I try to remain impartial. I'm not a fan of a tank rolling down my street willy-nilly, but if there's a nut ball down the street who's irrationally killing, I'll be glad to see it.

If you sold 2 of theses tanks and gave that money to the neighborhoods...

Unfortunately, the money will be sucked up by some other portion of the cities government. The prevailing view as of late is to not really help the poor. Do we compromise the safety of the police to afford these people in this deprived neighborhood?

There are some instances in LA where police officers live in the neighborhood and really become involved in a block by block program. In the cases of people breaking the law violently they need to be interned and let the courts decide their punishment.

How many policeman have to die in order to get these tanks though? Whose life is worth more, the police officers who protect the community? Or the people in these socio-economically deprived areas who break the law have a greater right to commit crimes, and is there life worth more?

When I lived in DC in the early 90's there were neighborhoods that the police didn't go into. Their cars would be overturned and burned. These are not some innocent peaceful citizens playing classical music when the evil police arrive in a tank to bust down the door. I don't know if the police still allow citizens to accompany them on ride alongs anymore, but unless you have experienced this type of violence and the situation you have no idea.

You spend a lot of time saying "What about the cops? What about the cops? Who's more important? More valuable?" That mindset is part of the problem. To me at least, they're the same. I've worked with both sides of the law on occasion, and they're too similar to warrant that kind of defense. People are people, no matter what they're wearing, what color their skin is, their status, even if they're better armed they're still people. Just because, "The prevailing view as of late is to not really help the poor." it doesn't mean you're excused for accepting it.
I'm wondering, did you take this poll yourself? And if not, why do you embrace it?

I can't go to deep into the reasons why I support the police. I have friends and relatives that deal in this line of work.

I hear a lot of rhetoric about how the police are always at fault. I admit that there are mistakes that are made. However, there are far more people breaking the law. I embrace the idea that I should be able to live in a neighborhood that is free of crime. If people are going to act like it is a warzone, then they should be treated accordingly.

The ironic thing is if we look at a case in the past, Rodney King. The police were abusive because they hit him with their sticks 45 times. The judge said that if the police would have subdued him with 20-30 hits with the nightsticks the case wouldn't have been an issue. He was on drugs and doing 60+ mph through streets were children were playing. It was a horrible situation and it escalated out of control. The people in the neighborhoods didn't see him as a criminal at all, or hold him liable for breaking the law. None of it would have started if he wouldn't have been on drugs and breaking the law. It is fine until he kills an innocent bystander or child in the streets. Drive by shootings are also prevalent in L.A., does that mean we should try to explain to the family members that lost someone that the police are not really allowed to offend the surrounding community.

I think rather than attack the law enforcement community we should find constructive ways on helping the community. Not blaming the police for the actions they are forced to take.

I can respect your desire to protect and defend your relatives and friends whenever the chance comes up, but maybe you hear a lot of rhetoric about how the police are always at fault because people think you may be able to prevent them through your connections. How much rhetoric is from your friends and relatives?
How is it close to a "warzone"? Hostile, sure I can get that, but a warzone is hardcore... Would it have been just as good to upgrade their own body armor from the typical level II-A to to a level II? Is it really necessary to be so "symbolic" instead of focusing on practicality? The drop in crime is only temporary, as soon as the SWAT pull out, it will be (illegal) business as usual. Keeping it up in the hopes that they get enough information to make a big arrest is wishful thinking because they have betrayed the trust of the little people who don't want a machine gun trained on them because they're standing on their lawn...
I don't see how this display is necessary.

This is going to sound crazy...what are your thoughts about the cameras that they have in England that monitor activity of its citizens to prevent crime? Do you think that installing cameras in cities to monitor crime is a bad idea in America? I know how 1984 it sounds.

I can't be 100% positive about my answers (because lack of intel.), but as long as they're in public places that are prone to crime, I can see how they'd be useful.

I feel if people work hard enough and sacrifice a few things they can break out of the neighborhood that is providing an unsafe environment. It may require three jobs and going to night school, but it is possible.

You are proffering the idea that the crimes committed are not their responsibility. These innocent people have no choice but to do: drugs, rape, abuse their children, fight, shoot and stab, steal from others, drink alcohol in excess, and make loud noise enough to disturb the peace. When the police go under cover and break up a drug ring the media will report that some innocent young men were unfairly arrested. Or a grieving mother will cry in the streets when her innocent child is caught with a gun fleeing from the police.

So let us talk about how to change the system. How do you propose we promote their youth to graduate high school? To try and go to college or a trade school after high school? Do you think it would be wise to get the parents involved? Have you tried counseling some of these parents in these neighborhoods? What are the graduation rates in their local high school? Regardless of race, you will find that socio-economic deprived areas will have parents that do not find school important. They look at gangsta rappers as role models, or people from WWE as role models. So if the citizens have the freedom to not want to improve and just keep on committing the crimes they do...I propose the city elected by the populace have the right to protect the rest of the city.

I sometimes feel that the cameras would prevent crime. In New York they have helicopters that fly around like the old movie Blue Thunder. The helicopters monitor the city with high tech cameras and they provide in a sense big brother. If the cameras are static though it seems more sinister. We have cameras in businesses that are used to track terrorist (Timothy McVeigh) and criminals as they walk down the street. There is a portion of our society that already has cameras. How many freedoms are we willing to give up to remain safe?

The second option obviously violates me less...

(sarcasm, in case I confused you)

That looks like it is used for traffic violations. Are you against the traffic cameras? I know in many states the cameras took photos and they were mailed home and spouses were catching their significant others with their lovers. So they took them down related to complaints. I think they keep people honest. However, I know it feels like big brother is watching.

Sarcasm...

I guess you are upset about the lid popping up to protect the police officer? haha. That seems a little intrusive. It isn't like they are going to an L.A. shootout every day where the bank robbers have bulletproof armor and are carrying armor piercing bullets.

However, you have to realize that many of these people are gun(g) ho NRA advocates and many are retired military types. They take their safety seriously. After 9/11 the fire departments and police departments were given a lot more latitude when it came to making purchases.

My overall point is that the police are our friends. That they are here to protect us. Just like the military they make mistakes that costs people their lives. There are cases where they rob people of their dignity as well. Like the New York cops who raped some man from Haiti with a broom handle and he won a $20 million dollar settlement. All for resisting arrest. They are not quire boys (nothing to insult the Catholic church either) either, they need to be held to the same standards that other professions are held too.

But they need to be given a fair shot as well. (I didn't mean shot as in not allowing perpetrators to run away either, haha.)

I held two jobs and went to school during the day. I had a ton of debt at the end of it. I would fall asleep in class and hit my head on the wall several times. I would go to school all day Mon-Fri and then start work Friday night and work 12 hour shifts at night Sat and Sunday. Often having to work over the 12 hours. Then after getting off the weekend shift go to school on Monday. White I am, privilege I am not. I would go into my past but you would frankly not believe me. So I do have a grasp of what is going on here. I went to a high school that was very violent and I was one of the few Caucasians that went to the school. If I give away to much of my history you might figure out who I am, and I can't do that.

That's it...bring out the tank (bear) and lock this neighborhood down. I hear that animlia_libero is here and we need to arrest him for his anti-law enforcement ideas. hahahhaa.

It hasn't gotten to that level. We are not in a police state. I just am trying to support the law enforcement community. Everyone seems to be picking on the police. Whereas, no one is saying that these criminals need to stop breaking the law. How many chances should they receive before being incarcerated for 20 + years? California has a three strikes and your out.

Besides getting angry at me and stating that, "I don't get it" and that, "I am to obtuse to understand what you are saying". Please tell me what you propose?

Reduce the police force and let the community police themselves? Possibly in a republican state of revolvers and vigilante justice with no police involvement? When should the police be called? The police should not be allowed to wear protective clothing or have vehicles that protect them? When they break into a drug house you are suggesting they shouldn't bring a tank or bust down the door? Possibly just knock until someone opens up? Even if the informant or undercover cop has identified the house?

How do you propose we get rid of the poverty? Education? Jobs? How do you propose we do this? Where will the money come from? I need some ideas from you. All I hear is anger and disgust, but no ideas. You are insulting me, and I ask you to back up your anger with some solid ideas.

Otherwise, the police will continue to do what they are doing and uphold the law.

That's the problem I've been having. +^'d

Do you have some filter between your eyes/ears and brains that prevents you from hearing anything that you don't want to?

captb , #1 , are you a cop or detective ? #2 , what do you think of my reply to nursedeisel , on this thread ?

YOU obviously have not spent any time around criminals incarcerated in the prison system. Just go visit there and see what it is like. Go listen for free at some of the court proceedings on what the police have to contend with.

I am not a law enforcement employee. I find myself agreeing with nursediesel in this arena. And others that I have agreed with in the past I disagree with. We all can't have the same sentiments on all thoughts.

I am against the death penalty.

I don't think giving a community $500,000 (the cost of a couple of tanks) is going to resolve their problems.

Do you make a park or community center with this money? What about the 30-40 year old career criminals that are in gangs? A jobs program to have them work and earn money? I need some ideas here rather than insulting one another.

Let me get this straight, my attitude as a progressive liberal is the reason that there is so much crime on the street. My republican/tea party friends would agree with you. This just happens to be one area where I think the people need to be accountable. From what I am hearing from you it isn't the people's fault that are committing the crime because they are living in poverty and are just trying to survive. That the police are abusive towards these people (like the Stanford study in which jailers versus prisoners set up a natural rivalry) and the reason the people break the law is related to the way they are treated? That the prison system needs to work more on rehabilitation (which I agree with, several studies had some good results but costs money). So if the police were completely removed from every aspect of these peoples lives and neighborhoods would the crime be eliminated? Would the rapes, theft, and drugs cease to exist?

I commend you on your work with prison abolition. I will tell you right now that I do not think that police officers rape more than the criminals do. The majority of rapes and incest occurs by family or close family friends and only 10% of rapes occur by people that are unknown to the victim.

I don't know what to do to help these people in poverty. Obama helped them by passing the healthcare bill. Which I am completely supportive of passing. It still only helps 31 million and there are many more it doesn't help. This isn't the only city suffering from poverty. I know it is crazy to place the burden on your shoulders or anyone elses on this site to ask what to do. I just don't know what community program that can help them? What stops crime so the police do not have to respond the way they do?

FUNDING EDUCATION AT ALL LEVELS!

I am all for education. I have to ask what is the rate of high school drop outs in the local high school? What is the unemployment rate in these neighborhoods? I don't know, but would guess that it is relatively high. For the costs of the two tanks ($500,000?) to be replaced with education. What kind of training program can be initiated? If you as a citizen were to go to the city council next week with a proposal on how to reduce crime and help the citizens in this neighborhood what would you suggest. I would aim at an education for the ages 20-30 as in some sort of trade school. Grants to assist them. I would ask that a military recruiter be established in these neighborhoods to give them a viable option. Not that it will be welcomed, but an option.

Quick response. The schools across the country have been losing money year after year, so the lack of education in these high crime areas is generational. There is no quick fix only a chance to change the way the problem is being handled. Education is the only way to help the people to start helping themselves by knowing how to create value. Tanks and prisons lead to resistance.

You did not answer #2 . Why do you thing tanks are better than opportunities , education and community stewardship ? How many programs could that money have funded ? People need options . Sheer force just kills people , it does not solve complex problems . I really discourages the locals from reaching out to the cops .

#2: I do not think that tanks are the answer. However, I do think the police should protect themselves in dangerous neighborhoods.

I would like to see the police to reach out at the door to door level. I don't think the money should be spent on tanks or weapons. However, I ask you what should we specifically do with the money. If you had to go to city hall next week and had to present your ideas to the city planners what would be your plan? They are going to need actionable items. They can't just hear the community needs more outreach centers and education. Because I will tell you they will not accept just good intentions. They need community leaders that have plans and are willing to follow through. Until someone comes forward and has some plans they are going to keep on doing what every large city with crime ridden deprived areas are doing, and that is support the law enforcement agencies to do their job.

I really want to fix the problem. I just need more than anger against the police or the outrage that a tank was bought. What can be done in the future. We can't just split $500,000 between the citizens, that is no plan. What education do you want? I need a specific city outreach group and who would be in charge of it? Would a church be acceptable that the neighborhood prefers? The citizens have high school, GED, and community college options. Above that, what else should be provided for these citizens?

Will these options help them stop committing crimes? Should extra tax dollars be spent on people that didn't try as hard in high school? Or have lost their jobs and are on welfare? These are the questions that my republican (tea bag) friends will ask me. Except, they are not as nice towards me when asking me. They are filled with piss and vinegar and usually red in the face and this is another reason they don't want to pay taxes.

The problem is simple . Technology is replacing people where is shouldn't . Besides funding of education , as I stated elsewhere , there needs to be a lot more cops . The plain clothes kind , to gather information . Find out who is dangerous , who to watch . Get to know people , create trust . It is a long term plan , a long term solution . There are good people every where . They want the jerks out too . At this point the cops are in a competition to see who can be the biggest baddest kid on the block . Sometimes I wonder if people have just forgotten how to think in non short terms . The TV generation ..... For the kids , another program , community pride , relationship building , with mentors to focus them . They join gangs , because they want to be part of something . Give them a far better option that challenges and inspires . Help them make something for their 'hood , contribute in some meaningful way . Paint murals instead of tags .

Guns will always be available on the black market. And if you ban guns, only the cops will have them, and imagine how the situation in the article will become even more oppressive if only the cops had guns. I agree 100% with your first two ideas though.

Only cops and criminals will have them.

leaving innocent, law abiding citizens with nothing left to protect themselves when those criminals, with or without badges, decide to infringe on their rights.

Don't bring sociological theory into this. We are all guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. We are not guaranteed happiness. The responsibility lies with the parents, not the government.

this is a pretty weak reply. i'm pretty sure the government is using funds raised by taxing these "parents" to supply these communities with these ridiculously militarized vehicles. i'm talking about reallocating these funds to help progress the neighborhood, and not just the police force. "sociological theory" is pivotal in the development of any community, and obviously has a place in this discussion. do you understand the concept of a level playing field? do you think that this relies solely on the parents? do you have any clue as to the oppressiveness of the institutions that most citizens have no control over? your "argument" is as flimsy as the bumpersticker you pulled it from. please, try and widen your perspective a little bit before you try to debate social justice. i'm a little embarrassed for you.

LOL "bumpersticker". Not the highlight of this statement, but a close second. I'm so gonna steal that. +^'d

you're right, they are stealing their money and then giving it back to them in the form of this tank. perhaps, instead of forcefully taking their money, they should let them keep it and let them determine for themselves what they want to do with THEIR community.

i guarantee you this tank was paid for by a federal/homeland security/etc. grant. why in the world are these small communities being micro-managed by some huge, far off govt. who obviously believes that tanks are better than schools, rec centers, libraries, and helpful programs??? therein lies the problem... when you give someone other than the community the authority to decide for that community, the community will not get what it wants and will suffer. while it would be nice to have a logical, sensible, benign govt, history has shown this is very rarely the case and doesn't last long when it occurs. while you and i would use that money for good things that the people want, our govt. has shown that it will not. so maybe if we were allowed our natural right of self-determination we could have those things. but as long as we continue to rely on govt to provide the services that we should be providing to ourselves, we will continue to see corruption or just plain ol bad decisions made for us. expect to see lots more of these tanks cropping up on American streets.

p.s. there's really no need to use insults. let's try and keep it civil.

It's fucking Pittsburgh not Cuidad Juarez.

I've never heard of any neighbor hood in America (in my lifetime) with the weaponry to take down a tank, or at least not one that ever used them. Now that there are tanks to blow up the criminals may eventually start trying, and when/if they do I will go live in the woods because it's difficult to drive a tank through a forest.
This isn't going to fix anything, you do get what you give and they're giving out distrust with this "symbol" when trust is what they need more then ever.

TRUST . You hit the nil on the head . If people could trust the cops NOT o taze them , NOT to mess with their ordinary , peaceful lives , They would have all the info they needed to get the real crooks . This is an example of lack of trust , lack of open communication .... No peace can be kept this way . Not without marshal law .

Unfortunately criminals keep walking through the system and are back out on the street to do it again. Our legal system revictimizes the victim and rewards the criminal, plea bargains, dropped charges.... The system is warped. We put murderers in jail for less time than people caught with weed. I don't like this tank mentality, but it's gotten out of control. Pittsburgh has a mayor gone mad and the police are torn between being good or too bad... it's a mess here.

Trust works both ways... and people are starting to come forward to ID the criminals...But it becomes a 'nobody saw anything' situation and the cops have to protect themselves from the chronic liars that know how to use the system. It's not all bad cops. Yes, there are bad ones and hopefully they will get caught and punished...no system is perfect.
Pgh. is a town gone wild in the really bad neighborhoods. I think now the people are actually trying to help at their level instead of being uninvolved by turning their backs on the criminal aspects going on arounf them. Kids on their way to school are at risk. It's bad....real bad. I won't even stop to back up or turn around in some of these neighborhoods and it's sad, sad for those stuck there that are good people....you can't tell by looking, who the criminals are, it's very deceptive....

Why is it that you see part of the real problem but insist on a temporary fix? "Our legal system revictimizes the victim and rewards the criminal, plea bargains, dropped charges...." And the best way to handle it is to focusing on arresting as many street level dealers as possible in the hopes of a big break, that they won't get because we agree that there is no trust?

Well said. And yepper,........I would "walk away" from urban Mordor.

Oh,......" +^d ! "

today (april 13) is Tommy J's birthday....and he once said of the nation he helped create.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
Letter to William Stephens Smith (13 November 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy "

so by my count we in the US are about 200 years late for a good revolt of the people.