Seaquarium protesters call for Lolita the killer whale's release

Within days, I'D have gone insane in something so small and confined! Darling Lolita... sad, sad, sad.

Sounds like you are already there.

On what do you base such a rude statement?

Perhaps you can take the time to post some (or all!) of those photos within the "Veganism" group. People need to know.

Dear Lolita's plight of being imprisoned for 40 damn years is beyond cruel and unforgivable.

When the HELL are humans going to wake up and realize how wrong -- how very, very WRONG -- this all is?

Thank you for your compassion.

Jeff...Didn't you learn anything from the Keiko failure. All they did was kill that animal...after years of mentally abusing him by ignoring him and denying his the human companionship he craved.

And don't buy that line about her mom is still out there and will be ready to accept her back and all will be well. The killer whales up there have been declared an endangered species because of the conditions in their environment from lack of food to commercial run-off. Puget Sound is a polluted cesspool and the water's toxicity alone would kill Lolita in a short amount of time.

The last orca to wash up on shore had to be handled as toxic waste because of the high level of PCBs in its blubber layer.

Leave the happy endings to Hollywood. Mother Nature does cruel and harsh very well and that is the ending that would be waiting for Lolita in the wild.

Fred, we learned a lot from Keiko's return to the wild - -primarily the importance of identifying the orca's natural pod. In the case of Lolita's pod, they are the best studied pod in the world and have been monitored on a constant basis since the mid 1970's.

Also, Keiko was hardly a failure. During his rehab he gained 2,000 pounds and re-gained much of his health. It's also important to note that he lived for 5 years in the ocean between his sea pen and on his own. He swam 1,000 miles from Iceland to Norway, feeding himself along the way. He died of pneumonia at the age of 25 and considering his health problems and prior disease in captivity is not necessarily premature. There are many who consider his rehab and release a success. And many who take learning away from it. This is the only time a long term captive orca has been released. So we only have a sample size of one. It is hard to reach conclusions on anything with a sample size of 1.

The fact that Lolita's mother is still alive only means that it may be possible for her to re-join her family at some point.

But the plan is not to just dump her in with her mom and see what happens. The plan is to retire her to a coastal pen near her family. And provide her human care for life if that is the result. Lolita still uses the same unique calls of her L25 subpod and these calls are much of the basis of orca bonding and recognition.

I can assure you there will be no Hollywood ending with her remaining at the Miami Seaquarium.

Also, part of the reason the southern resident orcas are listed as endangered is because of the capture and orca deaths that resulted from the wild captures. They removed or killed enough orcas to change their rate of population growth. While pollution is certainly a concern up there, the population is currently growing again. The availability of salmon is the big factor now.

Keiko gained weight and health during his time in Oregon...not in Iceland. And the myth of him feeding himself on his swim to Norway is a lie spread by HSUS. I know people that were part of the release effort that told me he lost weight and his blood work was so poor he required twice daily shots of antibiotics to get him healthy again.

And if there was much to learn, it would have been in the necropsy. But HSUS dug a big hole and buried their mistakes in Norway.

I have read Howie's little paper and it is not worth the paper upon which it is printed. There are so many assumptions without facts or experience to back it up to make it implausible. To start with a bay pen would still be in the same poisonous water where there is not enough salmon and the whales are dying. Whales that have had years to adjust to the slow changes in the water.

Lolita has lived in pristine water for the last 40 years, that water out there would kill her. It would be like taking the boy in the bubble and moving him outdoors in Mexico City.

And you cannot be holding onto the whole myth of here mom being alive. That's just a romantic notion Howie came up with to justify protesting on Mother's Day.

And a sample size of 1 is sufficient when that 1 was a failure. One dead orca is enough.

If a sample size of 1 is good enough, there are many things we would not have. The first artificial heart was a failure, the first rocket launched was a failure, the list goes on.

The thing about her mother being alive cannot be discounted. We are dealing with a species that remains with their mothers for life. They are the central component of their relationships, education and culture. So dismissing it as a romantic notion is not taking into account the characteristics.

Orca Network's plan is not the only option. And the bottom line is what I witnessed was clear animal cruelty in a facility that should have been torn down 30 years ago. The place is falling apart, literally. And the pool she is kept in is tiny. And she is confined to half of it.

I agree with you that the Puget Sound and surrounding waters need to be cleaned up and the salmon runs need much better management. And they need to get the fish farms out of there.

But Lolita needs to get out of that craphole Seaquarium.

A sample size of 1 is enough if it is a failure and the subject is dead at the end. The scientist may go on to other experiments, but the subject is just dead.

I'm glad you agree that Howie's plan is flawed and a bay pen in Puget Sound is unacceptable. But then if she's not in Puget Sound, the argument about her mother and whether she still can speak their language is moot. And you know as well as I do that Howie picked a female who "could" be her mother. There is no certainty about the lineage of an animal from 40 years ago.

As far as her pool, I don't know what you mean by "half of it." The last time I was there she had access to the whole pool.

All I know is if Miami Seaquarium was half as bad as you try to make it seem, she could have never lasted 40 years there. I believe her continued good health is because of the outstanding care she gets at the park. This is not a Keiko situation where the environment is detrimental to the animal's health.

Lolita is in great shape and Seaquarium should be credited for that.

Fred, we can agree to disagree. And I never said I disagreed with Orca Network's plan or a sea pen. I said there are other plans.

Lolita is currently gated off from the back tank where there are 6 dolphins. And if she is getting excellent treatment, I certainly didn't see it. I did see her waiting with her mouth open by the trainers after her show, waiting for food, while the trainers had their backs to her and were talking and laughing to themselves. Lolita gave up and for the duration of my time there, they didn't even look in her direction. They were standing and watching the dolphins in the back tank.

Of course I don't know this, but my guess is that you are somehow affiliated with MSQ and jumped onto current to defend them. I know no one who both understands orcas and their social needs who defends the conditions at MSQ other than those connected with MSQ.

In our discussion we have also not addressed MSQ's inability to meet her social needs by providing her the companionship of another orca. But I am sure we disagree on that as well.

I have worked in the industry and seen conditions at many parks including Seaquarium. I have heard Howie's inane ramblings and all I can say is the 70s were good to him. I am so glad that you were open minded enough to take your 20 minute experience and extrapolate that over a 40 year period to come to your conclusions.

As far as the gates go, I heard they moved a baby lag into her pool recently. You surely cannot blame the trainers for paying a little attention to the lags? My guess is the gates are only closed during shows for the protection of the baby. When Lolita breaches she displaces a lot of water and if the baby wanders to the wrong place, it could be swept out of the pool. I expect that they open the gates between shows so they all can socialize.

And you assume Lolita will only be satisfied being social with other orcas. She has lived with many species during her time at Seaquarium and grown quite close and affectionate with many of them. She has lived with lags since 1972, and while they are not orcas, they are companions.

You made a comment: "I know no one who both understands orcas and their social needs who defends the conditions at MSQ other than those connected with MSQ." This just proves you run in a very narrow social circle. There are many people in and out of the industry that look upon Miami Seaquarium highly because of their track record and experience.

The people that like to deride them tend to be young and easily led by fantasy stories like Free Willy where every park owner is greedy and every young boy that believes is good and right. Keiko proved that fantasy to be a lie, and Lolita's continued good health and longevity prove Seaquarium is doing right by her.

Fred, a few things. First, my experience there went beyond 20 minutes. Furthermore, my conclusions are not going back 40 years. My conclusions are regarding the current conditions, current treatment and what I saw. And it wasn't good.

Of course I can't blame trainers for giving the dolphins attention, but Lolita was ignored 100% of the time I was there except for during the shows.

I would also assume they open the gates at some point, but we don't know. This is because Lolita lives 23 hours of every day out of view of the public. There is no opportunity for concerned members of the public to see her, visit with her, see her care, see how she interacts with the dolphins, etc. Very different from other marine parks I have been to.

As far as your generalizations and assumptions about me -- I an not young nor easily led. My circle includes many orca researchers who have worked with orcas in the wild from years to decades. And I have never seen Free Willy.

And your argument that Lolita cannot survive in the environment in which she was born that includes orcas twice her age is a canned MSQ response to her return to an ocean environment.

As far as whether Lolita would prefer orca companionship, I think it is a safe assumption based on what we know of the species, social needs, intelligence and culture. While other species can provide something, they cannot provide true companionship that another orca can. Oh yeah, and as far as that environment , care and little tank -- Hugo didn't take so well to it. As for her longevity, it could be based on will, genetics or a number of factors that have nothing to do with care. Humans too can have longevity in poor conditions.

If you want to keep our discussion on the current...let's not discuss the "environment in which she was born" because that Puget Sound no longer exists. She was not born into the PCB laden cesspool full of agricultural runoff that Puget Sound has become. There are no assumptions to be made there...that is a fact straight from every environmentalist's mouth that is crying for the government to help clean up the water.

But you make assumptions, and canned activist remarks about her longevity being about her personal will. And I love the comments about whales twice her age...more assumptions without verification. More information we have to take Howie and Ken's word on. Sorry...no sale.

Again I say undaunted that Lolita is in excellent health and that continued good health is evidence she is treated well and gets great care.

The SRKW census studies are not taking people's word but are documented research. Much of what we know about orcas come from studies in the wild, yet are constantly discounted by the pro captivity industry. That doesn't surprise me because those studies can run against the financial interests of the pro captivity industry.

Like I said, we will agree to disagree. What I saw was a small, shallow pool that had an L pod orca being ignored and living in an environment that has nothing in common (other than water) with the environment she has evolved to thrive in. And this was surrounded by a relic facility in major needs of improvement. If Seaworld is the four star hotel, MSQ is the roach motel.

As for excellent health and good treatment, I didn't see any evidence of that.

We all see what we want to see.

Fred - just curious how long you worked there and when and what you did. I don't have an agenda with the question, just curious.

I've worked in marketing at several oceanariums and worked at Seaquarium during the time that Howie was living in Miami writing his flawed plan.

Are you still in the industry?