THANK YOU Whitenoise . Superbly put .

This is just one of the videos I'd like to see playing in endless tape loops on the ceiling of George Bush's cell.
It's amazing isn't it, you can still get a thin thread of hysterical deniers coming up with distractions and allusions about how the murder and maiming of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis was somehow, in some psychotically twisted logic, defensible.

AMEN!

I hope Bush and Cheney see this, but probably not in this life.

Your comment is sickening! Don't you get that by killing indiscriminately our next terrorist attack will be another Timothy Mcveigh? Nuking any group of people anywhere will make America a Grand target from within. You should tell your family to go AWOL instead of killing poor people with no way to attack America.

Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya, Osama is shagging my daughter, Kumbaya! His child will call him Daddy, Kumbaya, but I won’t see it because I’ll be shot.

Your comment turns America into their 'terrorists'. Sad, sad, sad. Win, lose, it doesn't matter. That is crazy talk! Are you truly crazy. Would killing them all, make you feel safe? What are you thinking? Win at any cost? I am ashamed of you as an American.

Does it bother you that in his own profane way he just reiterated the private opinion of the best and brightest of our generation? Do you believe that if the west just pulled up and went home things would be all good? They all hate each other with religious righteousness and will go right back to killing each other until the conflict spreads enough to reengage the outside world.

You sound like my TV

Yes, killing them all would make me safe from them. And I would not want to lose because I was to cheap. I hope it will not take any cost to save our asses from evil people. But it is better then being the ones who are dead.

OMG, let me guess, Fox. LOL!

At this point the only thing we may accomplish is making them all hate Americans more then they hate each other. Just for the record most Muslims are not filled with hate. The haters are just like Ezrierin only born under a different flag. And another thing, both countries bad guys were set in power by the United States.

Well since you feel like nuking people (which would kill many innocent women and children) here is a suggestion for you to ponder on. IF WE WOULDNT HAVE BEEN LIED TOO, AND NEVER GONE OVER THERE IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE YOU WOULDNT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AMERICANS DYING!!!!!!!!!

Ok city bombing was a fraud, it was mainly used to pass legislation that they could not get through after the failed 1st trade center bombing. Those people over there are only our enemies because we wont stop pissing them off. You talk about crazies with nukes,,,,WE ARE CRAZY!!! Look at the shit we do, im surprised we havent nuked anybody yet,,,oh wait we are the only country in human history to nuke TWO cities, people who by the way are STILL having effects from all that radiation. If your worried about another 9/11 then you need to start finding a way to get these douchebags out of power in our country and you wont have to worry about shit like 9/11. Cause at the bare minimum those in charge KNEW something was coming and soon, and did NOTHING to deter it, which makes them complicit. I take it further as i believe they were actually involved. Who made all those put options on those two airlines in the weeks leading up to 9/11?? Why did building 7 fall? Where is a video that ACTUALLY SHOWS what hit the pentagon? They confiscated all video of that event and still wont release something that clearly shows what hit. Why the hell was most of our airforce conveniently out doing war games that morning? Why was nothing done when an flight instructor called the FBI and said one of his arab students only wanted to know how to take off and fly but not land? Where is all the wreckage of the shanksville crash? How did those buildings just fall in on themselves like a controlled demolition? How does a rag tag group of arabs who follow a cave dweller come over here and hijack planes with nothing but box cutter and accurately fly them into targets? The pentagon is one of the most heavily guarded airspaces on the planet, for a plane to hit it is very unlikely,,,even MORE unlikely when TWO planes have already hit TWO other targets thus alerting us to attack, yet somehow another one was able to penetrate pentagon airspace,,how does that happen? How does the passport of one of these supposed terrorist manage to make it unscathed through a 400 mph impact with a building, a large jet fuel explosion and conveniently land on the sidewalk below still in good enough shape to read?? Why were israli agents over here video taping this, and told a talk show that they "were here to film the event"? How the hell did they know when and where it would happen? Oh wait how bout the two supposed terrorist who went to a titty bar the night before and conveniently left a Quran at the bar LMAO,,who the hell takes a religious book to a titty bar?? I am a mulsim and if those guys were true muslims they would not have been caught dead at a place like that. Not to mention they wouldnt have killed themselves while killing innocent people as suicide is forbidden in the Quran. OUR enemies as you said, are not over seas, they are right here in the white house!

This is no different than walking down the street and seeing a bar fight outside,,,,YOU DONT GET INVOLVED UNLESS SOMEONE COMES OVER AND PUNCHES YOU FIRST!!!

I understand your passion ezrierin, but let me tell you this, the US is in possession of far more sophisticated and target-specific weapons than nukes. We will not nuke this area because this war is not about removing the Taliban, it is about opening up the pathway for a gas pipeline, and nuking would destroy the entire motivation behind our presence in this country.

What is disturbing, on so many levels, is the complete and utter lack of honesty the US government has pursued this war with from DAY 1. The sons and daughters of Americans have been sent to this, and the Iraqi war, under false pretenses, and that is why we don't just go in and nuke the place. We need the place, and we want to construct permanent US bases throughout the Middle East to ensure the uninterrupted flow of gas and oil from this area to our empire building and energy gluttonous war machine.

We can all buy a Prius and put solar panels on our homes tomorrow, and it still wouldn't make a bit of difference as long as we are financing a war machine to the tune of trillions of dollars. NOT the change I voted for...

actually, there are those among us who witnessed the horrible unspeakable things Sadam did to the Kurds.

power corrupts
absolute power absolutely corrupts

What does Iraq have to do with Muslims and Al-Qaeda?

Really?

no... i take my bike everywhere... no car, and i only use bus when my bike needs repairs...

oh i almost forgot we can go without these resources we have alternative energy sources... but we choose to sit on our ass and complain instead...

for some reason i feel your just saying you bike everywhere to make yourself seem completely innocent in all this....

no... i know i have done some bad stuff in the past. but i do not and will not support oil :D

We should have left them to their great leader, Saddam Hussein. If you noticed while he was in power the region was relatively quiet as Iraq and Iran were busy killing each other.

although crazy... Saddam actually knew how to run a country

People blame the us for whats going on in iraq right now. wait till we leave and they will see what saddam suppressed for years when the shia and sunni set it off.

i still don't think it would be as bad as when bush took over...

McKinny:Well, we should have people in the United States Congress who care about this particular issue. I did introduce legislation to ban all use of depleted uranium munitions while the jury was out with respect to what the health effects would have been as a result of the use of these kinds of weapons. Now we know what the health effects are. We have seen what the health effects are, and the impact on the people of Iraq. But, now the United States is using depleted uranium munitions not only in Iraq but has been using them in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well. So, it's not about the environmental problems only that we are concerned, but we are concerned about the health effects on human beings. We are concerned about the health effects of war on human beings and that's why we are engaged in our activities to fight the 'US war machine' in general.

In Pakistan and Afghanistan? How totally stupid. We will be hated till the end of time unless we bring this war machine to justice. There needs to be some high level hangings.

Again they were so much better off under Saddam. Politically it was a gold mine for just the cost of a few chemical weapons he kept the Iranians busy and Al Qaeda out of his country.

And after we hang all of our leaders tell me again the bedtime story of the happy ending where Pakistan, India and Iran all get along famously.

What do you think our meddling helps world stability?

LOL hell no it dont,,,it just pisses people off further. This is so simple, but people are indoctrinated to think we must go and kill others before they kill us first that is BS!!! That makes us the aggressors and terrorist!

If you had a muslim and a jew living down the road from you,,,and these two were constantly arguing and or fighting,,,how is you going over there and kicking one of their asses going to help? The only thing you will succeed in doing is pissing off the one whos ass you kicked (or attempted to kick) and now they just may come down to your porch for some action, so all you succeeded in doing is making your home a dangerous place and endagering your family.

Oh this isnt directed towards you treewolf :)

So I see three kids. Not dozens of horrendous freaks. No evidence of what they are caused by. Living in a country led by a man who had no compunction about using chemical and biological weapons on his own people. But you, in your infinite wisdom, have already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it all the Americans fault.

You must live in an alternate fact-free universe to try and make those kind of holier-than-thou arguments about the US and Saddam.
The United States government SOLD those chemical weapons to Saddam.

Here's a bit of background for you, in case you missed that:

"The US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

Classified US Defense Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.

The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.'

This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm

Well no shit Sherlock you act like I didn't know that or have never commented to that effect before. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the current birth defects are as widespread as claimed or were caused by US use of depleted Uranium. My point was that the original post was lacking in fact or proof and provided by people with strong political biases.

Its also denied by people with "strong political biases"

What you did do was infer, by bringing up Saddam's several decade old gassing of the Kurds in a northern Iraqi village, that gee, maybe Saddam, and not the last two wars against Iraq by the US using depleted uranium might be responsible for this massive birth defects in the Iraqi city most prominently devastated by an all out fire-fight by the US military against the civilian population.
You also spend a massive amount of time and effort ignoring and vainly trying to dismiss all the various reports from many independent sources about this.
What unit are you with "mik"?

Actually I spent about 2 minutes on all of this mostly on the aspect of how people will instantly and deeply believe anything without hesitation as long as it fits their belief that we Americans are whats wrong with all the world.

Actually, it's the sad facts, which make many feel our failed leadership is making us what is wrong with the world. Flag waving, won't change the facts. America did use WMD's. White phosphorous is a weapon of mass destruction when it is used in civilian areas.

Putting ones head in the sand does not change the sad facts. It's no wonder our young soldiers are suffering PTSD. They are the ones who are forced to live with what has been done in our name.

Being an American was something to be proud of. When does pride turn into shame? When one recognizes wrongs were committed by us?

If you only "spent about 2 minutes" in your replies to everyone on this thread as you claim I don't know whether to congratulate you as a paragon of special skills, or call bullshit on that.
If that's an excuse for the obtuseness you've shown in your posts here, it's a poor one.
My own take on all this is that you are probably just one of those folks whose one-trick pony is vying for negative attention.
I'm still curious about your military hook-up. Did they help pay for your state college schooling, or did you enroll afterward?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html

There is no evidence that Saddam ordered the gassing of Halabja nor that there were that many victims - read the article at the link.

From http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html

A War Crime or an Act of War?
By STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE

ECHANICSBURG, Pa. - It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.

I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.

In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq.

We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region.

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change.

Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that probably could not be challenged for decades - not solely by controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American companies.

All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting, one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve; in its present debilitated condition - thanks to United Nations sanctions - Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.

Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.

Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds, particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes Washington supports?

Stephen C. Pelletiere is author of "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf."

I was an engineer and they didnt pay for shit it was after school. I am not being obtuse it is you who continue to argue in circles about multiple issues. My issue with the story was one: The source provided in this one particular article was not nearly impelling enough to start ranting down with the great satan and assigning absolute blame. Even Vierotchka, while I am sure for reasons of her own, is wagging a finger about making broad absolute claims based on sketchy information.

So, not only did the US sell Saddam the gas used in that incident, they purposefully lied about who it was used on.
I'm sorry to say I'd missed this article in the New York Times from the CIA official on what the US actually knew about the incident.

The gas was used in a direct fight with Iranians during the Iran-Iraq War. Both sides used gas in this battle. The Kurd villagers were "not the main target."
One more big lie, constantly and purposely told by Bush/Cheney and their supporters, to push the US into a war with Iraq.

Thank you for the link to that story.

We can conclude then at least two things from what you've said;
1.) The US military bought your allegiance AFTER you went to school.
2.) You have learned nothing from the information posted here.

Oh boy are you off base. Do you think this is all about some misguided loyalty to the military? When I got out the man who recruited me tried to shake my hand and I threatend to break his jaw. they lead you right around with the ring in your nose and you havent a clue. You think that you are such a free thinker and in the know what a joke.

No one is more of a slave than he who thinks himself free without being so.

JOHANN WOLFGANG VON GOETHE

A fine and appropriate quote from Goethe.
So then, we've established, that in your mind, you are not a slave to the military, and that you have some anger issues.
Anytime you'd like to expand on what you've learned by being in the US military system, and what you've learned since then, I, for one, would be happy to hear it.

Please explain your position that this article is factually accurate and that americans are fully responsible based only on the information provided. My post questioned that. You have wandered far and wide explaining your isolationist view which appears to be rooted in a hatred of your country. You are as much a slave to the idea that your country is always at fault as is the jingoistic patriot who believes it is always right.

Perhaps you have confused someone elses comments with mine. I didn't make any isolationist comments. It's not a position I hold.
The warning bell for when someone is really slipping in an argument is when one person starts trying to proclaim what the other one "always does."
Gee. We just met. You're being awfully familiar aren't you?

I asked you to provide evidence to tell us what has then caused this since you seem to know . But you can't can you? And oh my you only saw three, as if that wouldn't even more than enough. You and people like you disgust me.

The only political bias here is you. Again then, tell us what happened in Fallujah six years ago that is causing birth defects among children born there since that time. If you cannot provide that information, then you have no basis in fact for even responding in this thread.

Well I was sorely dissappointed after the full cloak and dagger, wait till you see the freaks down by the river build up and there was only pictures of a few poor handicapped kids. I thought the whole point was too build up indisputable proof and thought the offering was pretty thin.

Jan what do you know more than me or anyone else on this thread?

High infant deaths, increased birth defects, and increased cancer is "sketchy facts" ??? Of course the people doing this will say whatever to cover this up and discredit anybody trying to bring this war crime to light. You cant explain away whats going on over there,,something we have done has caused this and its BS.

Were you there? Did you count them? Is their any other confirmation you can provide other than an article on the internet claiming conclusions to some paper no one has seen? I am not disputing that it is possible I am pointing out that taking the word of one man with a history of poor science who is active politically against the British Government and another man with no more credentials than being active against the Iraqi Government is some poor decision making. Countering my arguments with the claim "Of course the people doing this will say whatever to cover this up and discredit anybody trying to bring this war crime to light" sounds suspiciously like "vast right wing conspiracy" or "liberal media conspiracy" or even "new world order the Jews are taking over". Are you also claiming then that the majority of the scientific community are also in collusion with the war mongers? Why not put your results out for scientific review?

Mike, LOL

Oh nose, im a conspiracy theorist. Its so funny that those of us who can see the world for what it is are always labeled conspiracy whack jobs.

p.s. Who pays these scientist mike? Where do you think they get their grants and or paychecks from mike? This is just like all the govt funded scientist who yack on and on about manmade global warming. Its bogus, but because you have scientist telling you its true you believe it. The earth was actually in a cooling phase for years, and will probly heat back up now that the sun is becoming more active again. They made carbon seem like poison,,when its a basic building block for life, more carbon, more life. It was hotter back in the midevil times was that manmade too?
And who cares if this guy is anti brittish? I would be too if they came and helped invade my country while making up lies to make me look bad. You dont honestly think our govt would ever fess up to using methods like this and killing innocents do you?

By the way since you believe what you do,,i want you to go move to the gulf, and call me in a few years and let me know how your health is since you probly believe its safe down there:)

I never said "jews taking over" however their are elitist jews.

As for new world order,,,well mike i mean our leaders have been blabbering about it since the 90s but its a conspiracy theory though right? People have throughout human history sought out to rule the whole planet, and today is no different. They have just found out that you cant do it by conquest alone as somebody will always stand up to you, you need consent, which is why they are tricking everybody into this one world govt notion because there is no way they could force it. But you believe what you want and so will i.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Active against the British government? Where is YOUR proof? And the BBC reported on this themselves! Talk about grasping at straws! Do you know the atmosphere in Iraq? The report I posted from someone who saw it with his own eyes shows that even doctors are either afraid to document this or have and lied about it to avoid having their records conviscated or worse by an Iraqi government now in the pocket of ours! How can some be so infintiely ignorant of how this works? But go ahead, continue living in denial and making this about left and right when it should be about right and wrong.

unfortunately our govt is in the business of bombing people and installing puppet govts, which is why we want to blow up Iran. This is like this crap going on in korea, the north claims they never sank that ship, (whether they did or not i have no clue) but now we are doing things over there instigating the problem and the north is threatning nuclear war, this is just plain stupid!! I say if north and south korea dont like each other and want to sink each others ships then LET THEM. No our problem, blow each other up for all i care, dont send our boys over there to get blown up with them while further driving up the deficit and depleting our recources. Not to mention but we will problem use uranium over there as well and poison more land.

You really don't believe in man being responsible for this climate change? Good science pointed to this in the 70's.

You cant believe every science study you read, as i pointed out (somewhere on this article) many scientist are funded by govt. This is all a farce to push global carbon tax and control every faccet of our lives. Al Gore is making a killing off of this. Honestly though what if it were true, how would taxes solve the problem? They want to tax farmers for cows farting saying it contributes to global warming LOL, i can only imagine if dinasours were still alive we would be living in 200 degree temps from all that gas haha.

Seriously, large volcanic eruptions spew more greenhouse gases in the atmosphere than ALL human activity combined since we have been on this planet. We are not warming the planet up, it naturally goes through these cycles, and they already proved that during the last warming the whole solar system warmed up as well, unless people think SUVs are causing jupiter to warm? Its all tied to the sun mainly, the sun has been rather dormant for awhile but is now becoming more active again, thus i anticipate warmer weather, which means the global warming conspiracy will come back full force as they will say "see its getting hotter" This summer has been pretty hot, however last summer was the coolest summer i ever remember in my 31 years on this planet. I rarely ran my AC at all last year.

If you have a problem with us messing with the planet than tell congress to quit using haarp. Its a machine in alaska that literally can push the ionosphere portion of our atmosphere out into space thus manipulating weather,,,it can also create earthquakes. This is not conspiracy, as its even been on main stream TV programming. And ive seen interviews of the guy who came up with this technology in the 80s saying what it does, and how the govts version is so strong it can make large earthquakes. Now that is something to complain about, i dont want my govt screwing with our atmosphere LOL.

I have read extensively on haarp and am not convinced that it is what is causing earthquakes. AS for warming the evidence is very strong that coal fired power plants are a huge part of the problem and the deforestation of the rain-forest is tipping us in the wrong direction. There may be more to it, and you are most likely right that trading carbon credits is a scam to make the energy corporations look like good guys while still ignoring the problem.

Pollution is very real. Remember the radiation from Chernobyl that went around the world. Carbon Dioxide may very well be the excessive gas warming the earth. I am way more worried about the methane being released in the arctic.
http://current.com/technology/92563237_methane-seeps-tipping-points-feared-as-co...

methane is way more higher in "greenhouse" causing than carbon.

Oh i didnt mean that i think haarp is responsible for all earthquakes lol, obviously they are natural for our planet to have. I said it can cause them,and it wouldnt surprise me if they used them as a weapon. We all know that supposedly using weather as a weapon is highly illegal, they have manipulated weather since the 60s.

I agree with chopping down rainforest as that is a bad idea, trees soak up carbon, and emit oxygen, and we do the opposite, (good realionship) Im not saying that we should keep burning coal and chopping down trees, i hope we stop but we wont, because clean and renewable energy is just not profitable for corporations. I know full well the pollution that is in our air, water, and food, its crazy, and some of it is put there on purpose, just look to the chemtrails, spraying barium and aluminum over us, and the govt has came out and admitted they are doing it,,,of course their excuse is "to combat global warming" lol.

We are not heating this planet up, this is natural, its just made up science to bankrupt and control us. However we are polluting this blue/green ball we live on, however whether you believe in God, or just nature, eventually the wrath of something is going to take us for one hell of a ride, if there is no God than we will destroy ourselves, if there is than he is not going to continue to watch us do it to ourselves. Anyway, making people pay taxes wont stop coal plants, or driving, or tree cutting, its just a money making scheme.

oh and heres something to ponder on. Govt says they are spraying things in the atmosphere (chemtrails) to combat global warming. Well if its that serious that they need to do a global spraydown of the atmosphere than somebody please explain to me why they keep making gas guzzling SUVs,,,why dont they make cars with much better gas mileage, they have the tech to do it. Why dont they stop burning coal and cutting all the trees down, and replant, and use wind, water, and solar power? You would think if the situation is so dire to the point of spraying chemicals in the air, that we would be nipping the problem right at the root dont ya think? Govt passed legislation and then even payed for it, for us to switch to these converter boxes on our TVs, (i guess congress was worried about how good of reception we get) LMAO,,,yet why cant they pay for us to all have high tech solar panels on our roof to generate electicity? Somewhere in Europe they did this, and it generated excess energy,,,so each house that had excess put it back into the main grid and was actually paid for this, wouldnt that be the shit?? Have your own power, and any you dont use gets contributed to the whole of society and you get a check!!! But we can spray deadly chemicals though,,,yeah right, there is another reason for that but i havent figured it out yet.

I still believe we can collectively change in a rather quick amount of time. I would love too explore some links to scientific information supporting your point that climate change has nothing to do with mans pollution.

I'm from the no god camp or god is a really heavy sleeper.

Geo engineering is happening weather we like it or not. I don't, but I believe we have already pushed the world toward a horrific melt then Ice age. The chem trails are to keep our crops from burning before our eyes. Talk to local farmers who have been doing the same thing for generations. We need a working media that debunks bullshit from the government and the rich corporations.

You make some great points about solar energy. Electricity all the time everywhere is not a necessity.

I never called you a conspiracy nut. However, since you choose to believe ONE scientist because he said something that fit your world view and argued that all other scientists were bought and paid for by "others" it may be that the shoe fits. I never mentioned global warming. What I said was that people were automatically believing the unsubstantiated word of one scientist who appears to have some poltiical bias and a possible reputation for bad science in making wild accusations.

Where is the proof of what? I didnt make claims I stated that there are serious questions concerning the accuracy and science behind the reports that you seem to take as beyond reproach. Jan I recall when groups just as fervent as you were crusading against the pesticide DDT. Horrible stories were circulated and scientists rushed to condemn it. Decades after it was banned from the market, studies looking back concluded that the effects had been grossly overexagerated. But there is one effect that is rock solid: Malaria, a disease that had nearly been eradicated from the globe with the use of DDT now kills an estimated 55 million people a year. That is what happens when people let the emotions and political beliefs determine science. Again, I never stated that it was not a possibility but that people were rushing to change the world on a few unsubstantiated reports by people with some apparent bias's and agendas.

So its the American Government's fault that North Korea is run by a crazy man child dictator who has starved millions of it his own people and now threatens to blow up the world?

Good science pointed to climate change being something that has been occuring periodically through out the ages of the earth. Bad science makes us think buying a few Prius's are going to stop that. just as many scientists believe that land use (clearing forest's and building heat trap cities of concrete) are the primary contributions to climate change as do those that blame carbon. In the dark ages we had the little ice age of cold tempratures and the last 200 years has been determined to have been one of the wettest stretchs of weather in thousands of years. You noticed that I said "contribution" not "cause".

Wow. See history is already being rewritten. I grew up in an area where DDT was used. Birth defects in humans and even worse effects on reproduction of wildlife. There may be safe applications but that would mean keeping it well away from the water-table. Poison is not the only way to wipe out malaria. Agriculture could be used to use up the standing water.

And what ways would that be and when do you anticpate them to be implemented? Did the ban do enough good to be worth 55 million lives per year?

Did you know that a 20 acre clearcut has measured temperatures at least 10 degrees hotter then the surrounding forest? The world forests are dwindling.

Fuck yea! That would have been the prick to overthrow. He IS threating the world with terrorism.

That's exactly my point. People making wild assumptions usually based on the political or emotional bias's. Just because there is global warming doesn't meant its primary cause was mankind. Or that the primary contributing factor from man is CO2. Land use issues like the one you pointed out are much more likely to be the culprit..

Where exactly are you talking the need for DDT? I would like to explore the problem not statistics.

Mostly in Africa. The alternative chemical is expensive and the mosquitos are developing immunity.

Where in Africa? What is the social economic condition in that region? Getting rid of mosquitoes in best done by draining standing water. How about this. Educate the Africans and they will deal with the problem. Poison is not the only way.