Undercover Ringling Bros. Investigation

...well, seeing it was an undercover operation...don't shoot the messenger, just watch the video...it is irrelevent where it happened, but that it did happen, Darius...

so are you just trying to make me feel bad for nothing? I mean, there's nothing I can do about this, I can't even boycott, picket them or anything.... because I don't live anywhere near a circus.... all I mean is that unless people stop paying to see these animals do tricks this will continue, and there is nothing I can do to stop it. so how is this relavant to me besides making me feel bad for these creatures.

the thing is it seems that simple if you have a modicum of compasion, but we keep feeding the revenues of these guys year after year.if we simply stop blowing our money on this sad version of a sideshow its done.it couldnt be any simpler, its not even like it would effect the market, they have no circus lobby.just dont fucking go and be a descant person.
not attacking you just saying it is frustrating

I couldn't agree more. I haven't been back to a circus since I went when I was 7 (my parents took me) and my whole family came away feeling like it was just wrong. So yeah, I agree and encourage others not to support it either.

I don't know that I have ever been to one.

You're not missing much.... :/

ya know this isnt something debated.ringling openly admits the "breaking" (as it is called even by them) of an elephant is a disturbing event, not fit for public consumption.
trained elephants with regularity go nuts and flip out.
the dogs arent eating kids, the tigers arent malling the clowns, but the elephants are going on psychotic rampages.
thier is no conspiracy, it just is.

...and with all respect, I can't stand the smell of animals suffering...needlessly...

it has nothing to do with peta, it is ringling.ringling has been dealing with this from animal rights nuts like peta, as well as various news papers, and documentarians.this isnt a peta story, it is a bigger story that peta has put its two cents on it.from wrestling bears, to elephant leg umbrella stands, to training of elephants by breaking thier will for thousands of years.
its lie saing you dont believe the spanish have bullfighters cuz peta reported it.

SOME have. Others of us (especially us non-PETA folks) have NOT.

the paert that you are missing, or choosing to ignore is that thier is no question as to wether or not this is pure evil.no one defends this, even ringling admits it hides it as it is too vicious for the consumption of most.
its like saying cuz peta says the sky is blue, i dont believe it.it breaking elephants is horrific, and a supreme form of abuse.this is not an area of debate but a status of being.
when peta says the son is yellow, it still is despite the source.
when peta says the sky is blue, it still is despite the source.
when peta says breaking elephants is cruel, it still is despite the source.

im not concerned about how they fuck eachother up, any more than i am about gerbals who eat thier babies.the videos are out of context, because the context elephants exist in, is not in a cage with us.
professional animal trainers leave because of this.not ignorant plants, professional animal trainers who view animals as thier commodity.clowns quite the circus because of this, as guilt eats them up.
you are supposing that all the media who has reported on this has twisted what is going on, that those who commit the behavior havent admited it is violent.
you are also supposing not one single person in the history of media, despite this being a constant issue, especially when the elephants go rogue, has presented the full story that exonerates this behavior.it doesnt exist.thier is no way to doll this up.ringling has advertising revenue, and effective marketing skills, yet no attempt to vindicate themselves in this regard.they are loosing audiances left and right, despite parents dragging kids to the circus to relive thier own youth.
just like how pro wrestling is always ten years behind in racism, ringling is years behind in treatment of animals, especialy elephants.they cant afford to let go of the elephants, as that is a huge staple in not only rignling but the circus business.trunk to tail marching is a huge crowd pleaser, as well as elephant rides increasing revenue with out excess overhead.
in the interest of money hey are riding this until the bitter end, regardless of knowing what is coming down the pike.stop the cruelty and submit, or see how long you can keep making a buck before you are caught outright.
ringling admits it
anmal rights groups from moderate ot extreme all decry it
legitimate media only sees it as wrong

absolutely no video, not even propaganda based exists to counter the fore mentioned presentations of elephant breaking.to think it is ok is just sick

Again, you're confusing me with someone else, Mr. Alphabet.

I write from firsthand, eyewitness experience.

"... But an elephants trunk can kill a man."

Right. So why do humans even THINK to take such animals out of their native habitat and try to put them into entertainment arenas?

i guess learning how to nullify the power of an elephants trunk is needed in north america, as elephants are so rampant.

both are examples of breaking an animals will, wich is wrong.in the case of a horse i can recognize a degree of need to do it, but it is the same crime just as skinning an animal for its fur and nothig else is.
it is a matter of abandoning reverence of life in favor of selfish need over owning responsability.

as far as me living in a circus you are correct, but the difference is i choose this.elephants,horses have no choice or voice.just as much as it could be inconsiquencial to do what we do to them, it could just as equaly be a horrific travesty.in this regard i am a conservative and would rather be safe than sorry.no enslavement of another life insures regardless of wether or not it is suffering, i havent commited a crime against another life.
anytime i want to live in the woods, or move to any place off the grid to abandon the circus of modern civilization, i can simply do so.my will is negotiated by me and me alone.i accept and even subject myself to the majority of treatment i endure.these animals are not benefiting from the same freedom, they are enslaved.

the argument that it is ok for them, is identical to the mentality that allowed african american slaves to be treated in the manor that they were.by ignoring the facts, and assuming they were simple by comparing them to monkeys, they were abused as they couldnt know any better.
from treating them as too simple to live on thier own, to denying them the right to be fighter pilots based on the "science" that stated they didnt have the capacity to handle such complexities.

when we want to validate abuse, "they dont mind, or know any better" is how we absolve ourselves.from slavery, to antisemitism (jews are not human but rats) to beating dogs, children or any abuse of life.

exactly, we dont know what the elephant wants, but take away choice arrogantly.
may be th elephants find the circus to be preferable, or maybe the elephant rampages show they would rather die than endure this treatment.
by us taking them we are enslaving them wether they like it or not.until we can communicate with them we should leave them alone to avoid error.

you speak of choice, as i did, wich is a luxury they are not afforded by us.regardless of how they feel they are enslaved

well the only word we have to describe this captive treatment of animals is exploitation, but exploitation doesnt cover it acurately.maybe one day when we all acknowledge the flaw in holding animals captive and bending or breaking thier will to serve our needs, a word will exist to specificaly adress it.i dont see slavery as emotionaly charged, but an accurate depiction of what is occuring.im not trying to be over the top by equating it to the jews of egypt, or blacks here, just no other work exists for when we do this to animals as opposed to humans.

the have natural instincts that dictate thier behavior wich we alter.they naturaly are only bound by thier instincts but are otherwise free.we not only take thier freedom (not that animals require it despite having a heck of a time reproducing in captivety) and break them of thier natural impulses.if elephants in the wild naturaly did the shit they do in the circus it would be just a change of venue, but as they naturely dont do these things we are perverting thier nature for our means.

in reference to how you validate thier worth, trees also dont think or do anything, and that type of mentality had our fore fathers chopping down trees in order to improve air quality.they believed based on spec, as your theory is as well, that trees served no function of value.
that limited of judgement clearly doesnt encompass the reality.

well millions see the animals suffering not only acceptable, but worthy of reward by taking thier fat fucking kids to it.not only is it ok in thier eyes, they are willing pay money for the experience.
i dont advocate hurting people, but a piece of me wants the animals to go all jihad on the viewers until it stops

lol.. that's why i like you!! "to go all jihad on the viewers"... lol...

I can't stand people that think it's ok to take their kids to this... but it's ok.. all those people will suffer eventually...

fuck if the buddist are right they are coming back as the animals.
great from jew to athiest to buddist, im turning into bob dylan

hahaha.... and me as Ritchie Valens

It's not even the tiniest bit "good."

do you know any elephants?

I do, I'm telling you, they're happy.

Their relationship with their trainer is no different than you with your puppy, training them to roll over. I'm sure to someone not accustomed to seeing you tease your pet with food and attention seems cruel too. I promise you, there probably are bad trainers our there, but what you're seeing is just the trainers keeping them calm before a show. If the elephant is having any emotion at all it's reassurance in knowing their trainer is there to take care of them.

Bullshit!

And yes, in my 'round-the-clock animal rescue work, I've seen firsthand LOTS of horrors inflicted upon elephants. You need to wake up and face reality. This is animal ABUSE! This is animal CRUELTY! This is animal EXPLOITATION!

And my friends -- who used to be the head clowns at Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus -- showed me all their own video coverage of their sweet animal friends. They told me the TRUTH, because they LIVED in it. And because they lived in it, they could no longer take the agony, and so they spoke their peace, and then quit... quite publicly, I might add, in hopes that others would learn the truth about the mistreatment of circus animals.

"Keeping them calm?" -- HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To clarify, I was referring to the main video posted. There's some room for editorial bias in the videos you posted, but other cuts are very clear cut cases of terrible, evil trainers. The best parallel I have is to horses. Most horse trainers are very good, loving people, but not all of them are. All groups of people have a mix of good and bad in them.

I believe you run the risk of stereotyping a whole group based on a few clear cut cases of bad people.

There is a large fear of people who are stereotyping the whole circus based on a few bad people. It is in some way ironic that the people seeking fair treatment for all wind up themselves being senselessly bigoted and endorse outdated stereotypes.

My one comfort from the videos you posted is that almost all of them looked at least a decade old, if not two or more. Trust me, the circus and elephant trainers are more worried about the people you referenced here than you are.

You would be better served to help them rather than fight fire with fire.

I work with animal rescue, day in and day out, and also have a connection with two elephants' rights groups, along with Animal Cruelty Investigations, licensed by the State of California.

So I DO know about what I'm speaking, and it is NOT "a few." That's absolutely wrong.

The videos may LOOK old, but they're not. They're all shot UNDERCOVER, so the quality is poor because of that factor. I'm not going to give away any tricks of the trade to prove myself.

Any time any animal is being used to entertain humans, it's a form of exploitation... in oh so many ways.

And right now, in fact, I'd best get back to my work, as we're trying to free an elephant who's lived her entire life in a small, confined enclosure at a zoo, right here in the U.S.A. She's never even gotten to RUN!

I would agree that zoos are usually more inhumain than training animals, but I'd trust PETA's journalistic integrity about as much as fox news.

If you're so involved with animal rights groups, why not call a trainer? I think you'll be surprised. Getting past the history of animal abuse is a major priority for them, and I think they'd be eager to try to find a way to move forward with wider approval from animal rights groups.

I will agree with you to a point. There will always be an exception on both sides of such things but in this video I didn't really notice any real loving relationships. I have seen as you have some trainers that love their animals perhaps as much or more than any people they know and in those cases it is most likely an acceptable condition for the animal. Siegfried and Roy would be a classical example of a loving relationship between animal and trainer.

ONCE AGAIN, Mr. Alphabet, you have confused [purposefully?] me with another person. I have never, ever ONCE quoted any numbers in regard to beef production, nor have I posted any "bullshit stories." I have also never "cried wolf."

Go back and find the person who DOES write those things, and pick on THAT person. Don't publicly berate me, or slander me, for things that -- in your small heart of hearts -- you know can't possibly be true of me.

You have a habit of looking specifically for articles, comments, and replies from me, as well as this other person, and in your mixed-up head, you've been unable to differentiate between two very, very different human beings.

You must be such a miserable person to attack so many others, and it's beyond tiresome... it's borderline slanderous.

*sigh*
you forget, he is a man who makes his living off of killing animals - so, let it go. for a hard working rancher he sure has an awful lot of time to spend trolling current for any and all evidence of cruelty to animals, just so he can attack people who are sympathetic to the animal welfare cause...

he's kind of like the people who put spam ads up on unrelated pages - useless and best ignored

"it is impossible for mrmxyzptlk to have emotions such as empathy or sympathy, because he lacks the ability to emote at all"
that sounds about right...
for proof (and yes, your much-touted science is in there too) see the latest edition of Newsweek - animals can reason, animals can feel, and animals deserve better than the likes of you making money off of them

I didn't follow it that closely but from what I was led to believe was there was only one tiger that was in question and it was determined that something had happened where in the lion felt his trainer was in danger and tried to drag him to safety. Had the tiger wanted to kill his trainer all he would have had to do was bite down on his head while it was in his mouth. He didn't any more than to drag him to what he felt was a safe place. I wasn't there so I can't be a perfect judge but from what I have heard of Siegfried and Roy, they love and cherish their animals deeply.

I don't know that this will ever become the reality but I whole heartedly agree.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!

I have always loved this video, and so thank you, thank you, thank you for adding it here!

You are welcome. ;-)

luv this

Being equal is not a requirement or a prerequisite to being intelligent. I have to agree with you that GWB is a fair place to set the bar as to the bottom of the standard for humans. If one can make it to that level they just made it.

I will be sure to tell any mute, armless people I meet to avoid you and to run like hell if you invite them over for lunch.

They would be running like hell especially if you had fries in your hands.

But that's only if you're comparing their intelligence to that of humans. And, even then, I know of tons of stupid people, so perhaps nature was kinder to all the voiceless beings than to us, because they seem to do very well.

They won't. "It's a cookbook! :)

So glad you posted this about those amazing bonobos!!! Hardly anyone "out there" in the real world seems to know much about them, and my oh my oh my, they are fantastic!

they are, aren't they, and I was pretty sure eden would enjoy both the girls rule and sex rather than violence as peacekeeping tactic.

Just keep them away from the apple tree or they will right a book and screw everything up. I'm just sayin

Great comment!! especially the EdJoy add... =D

I have actually seen it done with both when I was a kid.

I love to see elephants, and other animals get some payback on those who treat them so poorly. The sad thing though, is they usually will be executed soon after. Even if they are able to tame the animal, they will still kill it because it killed a precious human being. Sadly we see similar treatments at certain zoos as well.

i see it as suicide by cop, and good for them for finaly refusing to live the life we have dictated on them.better dead than tortured indefinitely

It is sad. Where is peta when animals justifiably attack and they need a lawyer? :)

...oh boy, this will weigh on my heart, and add to all the other incidents we come across every day regarding cruelty to our beloved animals...I sit here and look at "sockies" (cat) and she was treated badly as a kitten, and although I give her the best of me to gain her trust (with me for 5 yrs now, and she is now 12), yet, she still cowers, and is terrified of strangers...I will never understand cruely like this...and I'm not oblivious also to human suffering...but, these beautiful animals have no voice...and that makes it all the more unbearable...for me...