Can Israel and Palestine really have peace?

What is the point of this video? I mean had Hava Nagila not started playing the Jewish guy would have gotten off the train and the Arab guy would have goitten his butt kicked.

The video would have been kick ass if the Jewish guy knew Krav Maga and the Arab guy knew Koshti. Then when the skin heads approached in unison they jumped up and commenced a beat down on the skin heads!

''Israel is the occupying force and a source of oppression on the Palestinian people.''

More bullshit and calumny. Are you the character who lives in japan back under another name?

Nope I am a pure breed Canadian (not sure that helps). I don't mean to imply that Israel is purposefully oppressing the Palestinian people as evidenced by the fact that there is still a Palestinian people but the measures Israel takes to ensure its safety have placed undo pressure on the people of Palestine while having no discernible effect of the number of rocket strikes. this is the definition of insanity.

What do you think is required for peace? Do you think Palestine can build and sustain a viable nation on the land currently held?

You say that if Palestine laid down its weapons there would be peace and your mostly right except I fear Israel would lose any incentive to cooperate with the Palestinian people and the legitimate concerns of the Palestinians would be dismissed. peace will not last without cooperation from both sides. I'm just not sure I can trust Israel.

israel can be trusted

i feel you really i do, i just lack the optomism.
i agree that while the majority of palastinians dont want to be cannon fodder enough do to ruin any attempt at security.
i forget the name of it, and you are a superior googler or binger, but thier was a documentary (amongst a billion i know sorry) about a 17 yr old palastinian girl who martyred herself and ironicaly only killed one person, an israeli 17 yr old girl.forget the rediculous evil balance of it.the power in the documentary was in the israeli girls mother was on a quest to meet and talk with the mother of the palastinian girl.
i wont spoil the ending, but i think it is indicitive of how fucked beyond reason or rational thought the situation is.

what you suppose makes perfect sense in a reasonable world, but i dont think we are talking about a reasonable conflict.

The documentary is called "TO DIE IN JERUSALEM". I think I'll have to watch it. I can't express how frustrating this whole situation is to me. As a humanist, without knowing the minds of the parties involved, I can see the path to peace and what should happen to ensure the prosperity of both people. I can clearly see the road blocks I just figure a way around them.

I really think what we need is a world governing body with teeth. A body that functions for the best interests of the world but I'm totally an idealist :D

to die in jeusalem-you are correct.that was bugging me, that nagging what was that called feeling

said: israel can be trusted
The survivors of the USS Liberty MIGHT disagree with you on that one.

Yes that is true... and unarguably that is indeed fact, yet what is most oddly ignored is, that beyond the obvious assault, and the following diplomatic sword rattling of who was or not at fault... there has been no denial or acceptance of culpability by the U.S. or Israel on who or what had actually been the cause...
Could it be that it was a joint clandestine operation gone awry?... My oh my, how the thought plickens!

Here are the facts that are not in dispute

(1) The USS Liberty was an AMERICAN Navy vessel
(2) She was sailing in International Waters
(3) She was flying an American Flag
(4) She was attacked MERCILESSLY for almost 2 hours
(5) There was a Radio message intercepted by NSA that CLEARLY hears the Pilot of the Israeli Fighter squadron CONFIRMING it was an American marked Ship.
(6) There was a recall of two flights of fighter aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers to intercept and neutralize the attacking aircraft. This recall happened AFTER finding out that the ATTACKERS were Israeli and NOT Egyptian. The attack lasted at least another 45 minutes.

Now if you want to believe this bullshit about it being an accident be my guest.

so whats your point?

Come on man use your head. Why would Israel attack a US naval vessel on purpose? What would they hope to achieve by such an action. It is undeniably a tragic incident and more should have been done to properly identify the vessel but I cannot believe there was any malice behind the attack.

There are LOTS of speculation as to why Israel would attack the Liberty. I think the three most plausible are these.

(1) The planned invasion of the Golan Heights which was set to start a few hours after Liberty's arrival in the area. When Liberty arrived, the invasion was postponed for 24 hours, Liberty was attacked, and the invasion took place the next day. Did they postpone the invasion until Liberty out of the way and unable to report on the war?

(2) It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/21/world/egypt-says-israelis-killed-pow-s-in-67-w...

(3) It is possible that USS Liberty was attacked to prevent the ship from reporting a deliberate massacre of 14 Indian United Nations peacekeepers that took place in Gaza shortly before Israel's attack on USS Liberty.

They CANT be trusted!

no doubt, those fuckin muslims are cut 7th century cut throats

cause they were hopin a bunch of loser conspiracy theorist morons would continue to propogate hatred and lies against the only peace loving nation in the middle east. duh!

It goes without saying MOST of the Arabs in the region can not be trusted as well. They of course do not go around PRETENDING to be our best friends either!

Never said or implied it was an accident, did I?

No you did not, but LOTS of stupid people do.

I reread your post and you said something that was very illogical. You said "I don't mean to imply that Israel is purposefully oppressing the Palestinian people as evidenced by the fact that there is still a Palestinian people"

That makes about as much sense as saying Stalin could not have oppressed the Soviet People because there were still Soviet People. There is a BIG difference between oppressing and exterminating. They tried that at Sabra and Shatila and decided it was too politically messy.

This is what I was talking about fact based verfifiable information. Some sources would help but I'm a big boy and can research this on my own. I really think if can ratchet down the rethoric and focus on a reasonable dicussion we probably have more ideas in common then not.

Thanks for your constructive thoughts :D Lol.

Good response.

I am more than well aware of what the terrorist leaders of Palestine truly desire and it is tragic that the Palestinian people don't have more moderate leadership but just because they are led by tyrants and terrorists does not make the concerns of the people any less valid. I'd be willing to bet that most Palestinians just want to live in peace and be prosperous.

the question is does Israel really have anything to be afraid of? The organizations have been striving for the destruction of Israel for the better part of a century and have failed to do so. They have some poorly constructed rockets and no standing fighting force capable of doing any real harm to Israel

ok shit for brains im gonna make this about as simple as i can for you...lets say you have an asshole for a neighbor. this asshole neighbor decides for whatever reason (you fill in the blank) that he hates and despises you. ok now let say this asshole neighbor decides one day to lob a couple of rocket propelled explosives into your back yard. since this asshole neighbor isnt very smart only half or two thirds of his rockets make it to their intended target and blow up. one day one of this assholes rockets hits your kids swing set while your kid is innocently playing and blows her arm off or kills her. the next missile misses, but the next day one hits your house but the next three land in an open field and do no harm. you rebuild and your child learns to live with one arm. a couple of months later another missile lands in your back yard but 6 land in an open field again. since your property is only occasionally hit by said missiles are they really any kind of a threat?

Your comment has some merit but let me explain something to you since you seem to have your head so far up Israels ass you can't see straight. You forgot about the complete blockade of your neighbor's house so he can't get the basic necessities of life or the inevitable retaliation of white phosphorous mortar rounds and the death of all your neighbors children. Sure your child is missing an arm and their life is shitty but you still have a shitty neighbor and it's a bit hard to maintain the moral high ground.

You seem to like overlooking the fact that I have repeatedly stated that I do not condone the terrorist attacks of the Palestinian people but if you can't see that the Palestinian injury and body counts pale in comparison of the israeli injury and body counts your just trading one form of terrorism for another.

if the other side had better rocket scientists believe me the balance would be much different. take iran for instance, its only a matter of time. sure both sides suffer its been that way in that region for thousands of years. yeah and we can feel sorry for the children from all sides but the children in israel are at least taught peace instead of hate. the hate israelis have is from continually being threatened by their muslim neighbors who cant seem to get along with anyone in the world. your concern and overly political correctness is admirable but unrealistic and counter productive in such a shitty hostile world. sure peace is all any of us want except the ass holes that continually make life difficult for the rest of the world. the only thing they truly understand is force.

I'm glad we can both agree I am admirable :D

I don't intend to dismiss Israels security concerns because they are real. I honestly think Israel does desire peace with Palestine because they have not yet destroyed them and this was kind of my point. Israel posses the militaristic mite to completely destroy Palestine and force the Palestinian people to live under Israeli rule (which might work but would have its own security issues). i ment to convey that Israel has much larger security concerns as you have mentioned in Iran. I would have no issue with the destruction of the terrorist organizations that rule Palestine but Israel seems unable to do this without killing an unacceptable number of civilians and if Iraq and Afghanistan have tought us nothing you cannot suppress terrorists through force. I have no love for Hamas or Fatah and unfortunately this is all the Palestinian people have atm. I fashion myself both a israeli and Palestinian sympathizer.

im sure there are elements of both sides that deserve your sympathy. one unfortunate ploy by hamas and other anti israeli factions is that they hold innocent civilians hostage so if israel fires back the loss of civilians is unavoidable, thus making israel look even worse. it seems that many muslims have no sanctity for life

the "blockade" was a response to the thousands of rockets already launched.had the wall been put in place and then rocket attacks taken place then it would be a cause and effect scenerio, but the palastinians have been tormenting the jews since day one.wether its following them to germany to kill thier olympic atheletes, or highjacking thier cruise ships, the palastinians have been at it long before any restrictions on thier lives had been put in place.

the sad part is that those very restrictions that cause the compasionate observer to feel for them, are also the only thing stiffling thier terrorism.im sure crystalman has the stats, but since the wall was put in place attacks decreased.so much so that a suicide bombing hasnt happened in a really long time.after cast lead (not validating just stating) rocket attacks decreased as well.

what would have really helped is if when israel gave gaza back, the palastinians reduced thier efforts not increased them.that basic sense of mutual understanding has been avoided to the nth degree.had rocket attacks decreased after giving up gaza, israel would have no choice but to continue giving up land if they wanted peace, the onus would be on them.but as attacks increased it not only validates thier blockade, but affirms thier fears of a palastinian state.

sounds like a hamas victory while everyone else loses

israel used to give the palastinians a 30 minute warning before they bombed a building but had to shorten that window down to 5 minutes.they had to because in that half hour the palastinians would gather children on roof tops.but tey dont use human shields or nothing..................

freecrack and I have discussed this and there is lots of evidence to support it I just feel like Israel should take greater precautions when engaging terrorist threats. I know it is a difficult situation but I value human life over all else so as a soldier or a commander I think I would look to restraint and engage the enemy when they were away from a civilian population or at least try as hard as I could to minimize the collateral damage.

Israel boasts one of the greatest spec ops units in the world. I'm sorry but I find it difficult to accept that there is not any other way to engage terrorist elements.

I know the point of terrorists is that they operate out of civilian populations in order to prevent this sort of thing I would just like to see less civilian casualties on either side. Children should never have to die for their parents mistakes.

I get what you're saying and I can agree that maybe Israel truly needs a safety barrier between Palestine and itself. I would however, question the placement of Jewish settlers inside that "buffer" zone. If you really wanted a buffer you would go with a demilitarized zone like the Koreans have.

As I stated in the main article it really is a slippery slope for Israel. removal of settlers is permanent and cannot be undone while a lull in violence can be broken at any time. If Israel feels that the occupied land is required as a buffer from Palestine then that line of thinking will exist no matter if Hamas fires a single rocket or if they fire 800 rockets. Peace from Hamas cannot be piece meal it has to be done all at once.

I think that Israel has an irrational fear of Palestine. They have never outright attacked Israel (all wars were fought by their arab neighbors) and they lack the resources to ever do more than those rocket strikes.

I don't mean to down play Israels security concerns because they are valid. I guess I would look to the international community to ensure the cessation of violence in exchange for land but that's just me being naive and idealistic.

http://exists.as

and that is how carter got them to simmer down in the first place.he showed each sides representatives pictures of thier respective grandkids and told them to do it for them if nothing else.
but martydom has come along way since then and i dont really know at this point if the option of removing children from the mix exists.as long as we are playing terrorist rules the population is vulnerable,men,women,children,and pets.conventional warfare wich takes place on a battle field would be nice, and egypt and jordan met israel on those terms with tiny civilian casualties, but the the plo and hamas will not.

peace will only come when the palastinians love thier children more than they hate the jews-golda mier.it is the saddest statement of humanity ever made, but its sadness is its stark clear accuracy

the international community is full of stupid leaders, who like you tend to be unfairly biased in favor of the palestinians.

Your image and post are misleading. True Palestine has not been a nation in modern times and it may be true they were not known as the "Palestinian people" until Arafat but this is how they see themselves now and so I choose to acknowledge them as such. This should not be a point of contention and detracts from the real issues at hand.

"Palestinian people" or not the fact is the majority of the population in the area prior to the British Mandate where what is now recognized as Palestinian.

Nearly everything you post on here about the situation is bullshit and lies. Have you been to Israel? The West Bank? Gaza? Have you seen for yourself the reality on the ground? Have you spoken to Jews and Arabs who live in these places? If not, then you have no right to speak with such assurance. Where do you get your information?

I don't think my post or reply to your comment solicited that sort of attack. No I have not been to Israel or Gaza or the West Bank. I do however have a brain that functions and this handy tool called the internet. I do my research from many sources available on the internet. i do not simply regurgitate everything I read or hear. If I cannot verify a statement of fact via a third-party I dismiss it and move on.

How is everything I post on this BS? I really try to make an informed and educated opinion on the issue and fact is the point of this conversation is to improve my knowledge of the situation and evolve my point of view. As I stated before you cannot hope to understand the conflict without looking at both sides of the issue.

I would look to people like you who have been there to bring more solid facts regarding the conditions on the ground but all I have seen from you is hate speech towards the Palestinians. Your outright refusal to take a critical look at your side of the conflict renders your opinion useless to me. I'm willing to make concessions regarding the Palestinian approach to Israel i just ask the same in return.

I was attempting to have a moderate discussion regarding the peace process. if you cannot moderate your comments to something constructive please don't bother commenting anymore you only detract.

your discussion is far from moderate. You throw out careless remarks such as Israelis being better off than the Arabs. This is nonsense. You don't realise.....or perhaps you do...how loaded this remarks are.

if you feel the entirety of th internet is wrong regarding the state of the Palestinian people then post a un biased fact based response to that. I have not seen any evidence from you that the people of Palestine all have nice houses and enough food to eat while at the same time there is plenty of evidence of oppression by the Israeli people (not strictly the government though blockades and border control certainly has its issues, but settlers as well) True the people in the West bank fare better than their Gazan counterparts but they are far from living the american dream.

One can easily find poverty information on the internet including verifiable data and it's not hard to see that Israel is far better off the people of Palestine. Now this is not entirely the fault of the Israeli government but the inability of the people to get basic manufacturing equipment into the country probably does not help much.

fuck dude, try livin over there. then youll finally understand

you could acknowledge their leadership as murderous islamo facist thugs who have no intention of creating a lasting peace with israel until the jews are driven into the sea

I have freely admitted that I lack a really understanding of the conflict in it's entirety. In fact i have admitted to an initial complete bias towards Palestinian support. I have however evolved my point of view to a more moderate stance and I can see clearly the issues on both sides of the fence. I would love so fact based evidence from someone I could trust as to the real living conditions in the area being that most of what I understand has been influenced almost completely by what I can find on the internet. I try very hard to fact check everything I read or hear.

I freely admit that the current Palestinian leaders are terrorists and this is a serious and legitimate issue for Israel. however, if you take a look at the history Israel has not had any trouble fighting the Palestinian people so as stated in the original post if Israel where to make a solid effort at peace and a two state solution is realized Israel would have a recognized right of self-defense against Palestinian cross-border attacks with the full support of the international community.

If Israel backed off and returned the land to pre 67 borders (a Palestinian condition for peace) and Palestine continued to launch rockets at civilian targets in Israel I think you would see a swift response from the international community. I would support any nations militaristic response (with minimal civilian casualties of course) against Palestine. Israel is big enough to stand on it's own and Palestine poses no threat.

in case you didnt know israel attained that land when an unprovoked attack was launched in 1967. they have retained it as a buffer against more attacks. if the muslims laid down their weapons there would be peace, if israel laid down their weapons there would be no more israel.if these guys would quit lobbing unprovoked missile attacks into isreali civilian territory the jews might feel more compelled to come to the bargaining table. dude, believe what and who you want i dont really care that much.

freecrack and I have had a lengthy discussion regarding the instigator of the war in 67 and regardless of the war no land was cede legally to Israel after the war thus Israel is an occupying force and in violation of international law.

I can see Israel security fears in withdrawing back to the pre 67 borders. they really have little reason to trust the Palestinian leaders especially given that the two Palestinian governments can't even get along. No one is suggesting Israel lay down it's arms. i fully support Israels right to exist and to defend itself from attack. Israel has nothing to loose except what it has illegally attained and by stepping up and accepting the land division of pre 67 variation Israel would get the support of the international community and Palestine would run out of excuses.

I'm sure we can work a demilitarized zone buffer between the two nations like the Koreans have.

I saw more poverty in south Tel Aviv than the West Bank.

the international community is a rediculously big if.not just cuz israelis are more neurotic than the stereotypical jew (not all but generaly we are) it is literal hard cold history.i mean can you recall the date when terrorism has done that? why would they think that the same global community who did absolutely nothing for a decade as 10 thousand rockets were launched would all of a sudden step up? israel and palastine have signed cease fire after cease fire with both sides accusing one another of breaking them thus thrusting themselves back into a state of conflict.if israel redeeds back to 67 borders, and the palastinians continue on thier tactics it is suicide.we are used to those two crazy kids going at it, they have been doing for thousands of years ya know, why should we get involved in thier bullshit.it will be going on for another two thousand years.while the world looks at it that way the arab world looks at it as the greatest victory possible.not only does it serve a variety of needs, it validates that islam is supreme for countries that are arab national states.imagine what a government that could get %100 public support would do? choose to not attack israel while the other guys become heros to thier publics.
hamas ruling mecca is not an impossible scenerio if the palastinians defeat israel and the saudis dont kick in.

wich i must say is extremely satisfying.no one really has ever taken me that far.to the point of defining what constitutes provocation, and that is a germain point to have a mutual understanding of.

You put me in a difficult position. I have no desire to defend rocket attacks on civilian targets perpetrated by Hamas or Fatah but at the same time I can understand the frustration of the Palestinian people. Where you see olive branches I see pandering. Israel has never really taken the risk of letting the Palestinian people be free in their own land. they keep Palestine at arm's length and inadvertently oppress the people by controlling the borders, airspace, coastline, power supplies, imports and exports.

How fair is it to a Palestinian tradesman who has to work with equipment from the 60's because "well we can't let you import new equipment... the terrorists might take it and make more rockets...". guess what they are still making rockets... the brocades have not been able to stop them so why continue to put down the people?

What do you think would happen to a standing nation that openly declared war and attacked another standing nation in today's world. There have been skirmishes but there has not been a full-fledged declaration of war since WWII ended. I'm pretty sure any nation would find it was holding the short end of the stick if it tried any shenanigans.

I do what I can :D

you see things wrong my friend. either you must be a muslim or have a close friend who is who is filling you with bullshit. my suggestion again would be for you to spend a year in israel and a year with the muslims. you will never be convinced by any of the jews offering you history and first hand knowledge of the area.

truthfully I am an Atheist and I would love nothing more than to see the end of all religions. I can't say for sure I know any muslims. I did work with one guy I thought might be but he was very quite and kept to himself (You always have to worry about the quiet ones....).

unfortunately visiting Israel or Palestine is pretty much out of the question let alone living there. I would love nothing more than a first hand account of the conflict but I am an old guy and I have a family so I must rely on information from others. I do try to verify all the information I am given from both sides. next time you visit you'll have to get some pictures to share.

well it seems that you are trying to give both sides a fair shake and thats admirable. but unfortunately thats not how things work in the middle east. dont plan on any returns soon but you can alway google pics of the region.

your perspective (as most peoples is myself included to varying degrees) is based in the current, ignorant of the past.the restrictions that the palastinians live with today are new developements in the last five years or so.the outdated materials you speak of are not a result of israel screwing them, but thier own leadership not caring to invest in any kind of infrastructure.wich strategicaly makes sense, cuz if they build up thier camps they lose any basis for why they need thier land back.just like we cant try to get land back in britain (or france in your country's case as well) when our situation is so good here.

until 2005 the "palastinians" where represented as a people by the west bank.the west bank has huge open borders to jordan where any and all materials can get through.gaza is full of modern israeli built infrastructure, from green houses to electricity grids.the lack of supplies situtation is at best recent, and mostly exagerated to the point of absurd.
cuba and north korea are in a more primitive technological state as a result of our restrictions than any palastinians are.

did you really just state to another person that they see things wrong? really?

I just wish I could get some non biased proof that Gaza is not as bad as it is shown on the net... heck I wish I could get some non biased proof that it is :P

both ways.it is like how once upon a time people came to america, broken hearted to find the streets werent paved with gold as they had been told.or when the soviets thought we all drove sports cars and america was one big hollywood.(it made bluejeans a tad pricey for them)

i have said it before and ill say it again thanks to the media being biased in all directions, the only thing a reasonable person can do is absorb as much of it as possible from all sides, and make conclusions over time.see wich theory that developes in your mind holds water, cuz he truth will never exist.if it did we wouldnt have three abrahamic faiths.

never gonna happen to your satisfaction. it seems that you already had your mind made up before your very first comment on this thread.

yup, since i am arrogant and everything i say is true.

I know that by defending the Palestinans i often come across as anti-Israel but I have to ask. I have been studying the history of this conflict over the last little while and while and I have seen lots of times Israel has made consesions that at face value look like they are extending the olive branch but when you take a closer look it's a bit harder to give Israel credit. Take the gaza withdrawl in 2005; true israel removed it's settlers and gave the land back to the Palestinian people but israel maintained control of the borders, airspace, coastline, power supplies, imports and exports. Israel basically imposed a blockade while returning the land. many palestinian people feel they are worse off after the withdrawl then before. How is this an Olive branch? I recognize that israel has serious security concerns and that these concerns are valid but you need to be realistic regarding the so called "Olive Branches"

its not so much the palestinian people that israel has a problem with. for the most part they just want peace and a chance to raise their children and make a decent life for themselves. its their crooked, violent, and untrustworthy leadership that keep creating most of the problems

I whole heartedly agree with you but Israel isn't exactly innocent in all of this.

depends on whose propoganda you choose to believe

I don't believe anyone's propaganda. I try very hard to get both sides of the story. Both sides have committed terrible acts against the other.

if you look at it that way i suppose the same could be said for hitlers germany and the jews

I don't follow? You'll have to explain that one :D

its is an olive branch because on the other side they were actively waging war.had both sides been at a state of cease fire, the blockade would have been israel imposing on them where they previously had not.being as israel controled gaza militarily the withdrawl was an offering of more freedom.the control imposed by the blockade already existed before the land was given back, it wasnt really instituted but a layers of freedom israel did not feel safe giving up with out some kind of assurances.
israel recieved a thousand rockets a year on average from gaza between 2000 and 2005.the blockade is the only way they could both provide security and make a positive move.the tinyest level of freedom, but the hugest gesture considering land is a major piece of thier conflict.in the end it was an olive branch of intent for peace that was thrown back in thier faces as rocket attacks increased.

i'm happy to see that you do occasionally have something of value to say freecarack

See but this is the problem. peace has to be all or nothing. Non-violence cannot be traded in chunks. Either Hamas stops firing rockets or it doesn't... as I stated Hamas cannot say if you give us back x amount of land we will fire x amount less rockets at you. peace cannot be an incremental thing. if Hamas stops firing rockets at Israel all together and Israel gets the peace it desires then where is the incetive to return the land.

land won fair and square and held as a safety buffer. if the arab world would guarantee israel no more rockets and held up their end of the bargain im sure israel would be willing to do a swap

The land taken in the six-day war was not won. For Israel to have legal right to land it needs to be ceded by a nation that holds the legal right to that land. the international community acknowledges that Israel has no legal right to the land and so they are an occupying force. it would be the same if the any of the allied forces in Afghanistan started building settlements out there.

You have to see the issue with demanding Palestine put down their weapons. neither people trust the other so it's never going to happen.

doesnt seem likely does it. it may take the hand of god, and it very well may

guess you and i see things as differently as the palestinians and the jews. good luck. peace

your arrogance is actualy impressive.if you dont live in hollywood i suggest you make a trip, reality tv is just waiting for you.

and here is where the radicalization of the population adds another impass.hamas isnt ordering these attacks.hamas isnt saying hit them "x" amount today but a different amount tomorrow.in radicalizing the palastinians they create independant warriors from afar.it both insures that no unified force exists for israel to defeat, as well as keeping israel's attention split between hamas and the citizens under hamas who attack them.

while completely a vulgar display of violence, it is a genius strategy.while israeli intel is trying to dissarm the hamas military wing while not confusing it with its political, or religious wings these independant palastinians are doing hamas's work out of a sense of duty.

thats the thing though.i dont think hamas can stop the rockets.

not beng a dick but logistacly think about it.
the cease fire is valid, cuz egypt and jordan signed it
but the terms arent, cuz egypt and jordan signed it

either they played the roles of the powers that be on the arab side, or not but it cant be part time.

Your wording always makes me remind myself that you aren't speaking of all the Palestinian people. My first response is always "They aren't all terrorists...". dare I say that I don't think Hamas has any desire for peace... it really is a tragedy that the people don't have another option you think they would get tired of being used as human shields.

But the question has to answered if egypt and Jordan had the legal right to cede the land. The international community says no so I am inclined to believe that the whole world isn't out to get Israel so there must be an issue with the occupation.

Imagine if Canada and the US fought a war and during the war Canada took a piece of mexico and we won the war (I know that you might have trouble with that thought but bear with me). At the end of the war we signed a peace agreement and you agreed that we could keep that piece of mexico. Does that seem right? Even if Mexico had fought on your behalf during the war?

yes because mexico proved itself to be willing to fight you.had it just been just us going at it and mexico remained nuetral, like we did when the french and enlgand were going at it, no threat exists.we enjoyed a friendship with both the french and the english reasonably quickly after our independance by not chosing to get involved.we had no skin in that game.had we made a play for the queens crown i dont think all would be forgiven.regardless of land her majesty would recognize we pose a threat.

the palastinians could have chosen not to partake, and it would have just been a war between jordan,syrai,and egypt alone, with the palastinian territory as a staging point.just like iraq wasnt attacking saudi arabia when we attacked them from there, twice.the palastinians chose a side.they chose to fight on behalf of those against israel.
like always, if israel had lost then it would be palastine and i wouldnt feel like the jews should rule there.but they won, and those who they fought dont get the land, they do.just like every other conflict ever in the history of anything.

i would love to see us go to war by the way.i think a us war with canada would be the softest conflict ever.have you seen canadian bacon, its fucking funny.a lil trashy and porn quality film but still a funny excercise in how that would go down.

there was also an episode of the west wing that had that as a secondary story line.it was pretty funny then too.but if w did go to war i wouldnt mind saluting a maple leaf that much.

you'd think. but their minds and emotions are controlled by a fear brought on by terrorism. either be a human shield or die at the hands of those demanding it of you. not really much of a win win situation. what it's really gonna take is some kind of grass roots leadership to rise up and take out hama's and other terrorist organizations. then the people will truly be free and able to choose their own destiny with israel.

thanks, i just might do that. and i have an in. after all we own hollywood!

you scoff but the idiots are still pushing that one.
http://current.com/groups/fight-the-internetfightingteam/92654371_declassified-m...

The point I was making was that the US would have no rights to cede land to canada that legally belong to mexico. Even if Mexico fought willingly along side the US any negotiations with Canada would have to come from Mexico only they would have the right to cede land. So thought the Palestinians fought along with their arab neighbors this does not give the other countries the right to cede land on their behalf.

On a side note we did fight a brief war in 1812 (we were still a british colony). We even captured D.C and burned down the original whitehouse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812. I also believe that we often best you guys at war games. Canada was also the only nation to complete all of it's d-day objectives in normandy. We've always been bad ass.

oh i finally get it now, youre canadian.

as far as im concerned, if two guys try to fuck me up i take issue with both of them equaly.
in a christmas story for instance (i know but im high so it seems relevant) ralphie kicked the shit out of the bully, not his side kick as the side kick just agreed with the bully, but took no action.

in kill bill uma didnt just go after bill cuz it was his deal, she went after every person who partook.shit even madson stating she had a right to get her revenge on all of them for what they had collectively done.

you may be looking at this with in the context of international law, using precidents to validate but that isnt where my perspective is.mine is based in my understanding of us as human beings, and the feelings that guide us, not the legal bodies meant to guide us.

precident for ya, the soviets in ww2.they switched sides and as a result along with us and england, came out a superpower unlike those who didnt and had to rebuild under duress.had japan joined us they would be in the club, but as they remained axis they got our ire.had the soviets stayed axis they would have recieved the same.japan didnt get to be an autonomous free nation nor did germany, even on our side of it.the palastinians got the shit end of the stick, just like germany did at the end of ww2.just like the soviets did, the jordanians basicaly switched sides, and egypt was like japan,at peace but cautiously.the palastinians as the center of the conflict like germany get domination, as it would be unreasonable not to view them as a threat.unlike germany they have yet to let up.