Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla broke law - UN probe

well you're just going to have to live with your festering ill will buddy. Rather you than me...because there's nothing you can do about it, except seethe. Whereas I can celebrate and enjoy the wonders of Israel every time I go there. Glad I'm not a loser.

i so saw that coming, i would have done the same

He made it to easy to pass up. :-)

its ok, its idealogical protocal

Perhaps if Israel had built their wall on the actual border of the west bank instead of taking as much land as they could I would give your argument weight. Israel is not a special case and she must abide by the rules and laws created... by your reasoniong Israel would have the right to board any vessle sailing close enough to be intercepted for any reason.

Remeber that what goes around comes around and payback is usually a bitch.

Sorry buddy but you should have stayed in La La land. Guess what? Israel IS a special case but I'm afraid that's beyond your limited comprehension.

pretty much, build where they want, board any ship they want its all good. and yeah i cant wait for the psycho islamo terrorists to get their come around pay back, itll be righteous! yeehah!

You mean to tell me you can not support a heavily armed well trained Commando shooting a 19 year old armed with a stick in the chest 4 times and one in the head for good measure?

Actually it's none of your business. Stay out of it like a good boy.

how does it feel living everyday with hate and having lies and calumny swimming around in your brain all the time? It must be quite stressful on the whole organism...watch out for those psychosomatic manifestations.

I was going to go off on you, but my day has started so well I will just say peace! :-)

i sense you are coming from a humanatarian persepective, and if so ya just gotta look at israel's opposition, and it is easy to support them.
blockade is cruel in the manor we speak of it, but compared to bulldozer attacks and suicide bombings it seems far more civil.

i can support that a heck of a lot easier than i could support martyrs.at least commandos have a chain of command steming from a social order, not rogue acts of violence purpetuated by hate.

You said "at least commandos have a chain of command steming from a social order, not rogue acts of violence purpetuated by hate."

This is what makes Israels actions all the more appalling. You do not have some lone nut committing and act of terrorism, but an agent of the state acting on it's behest.

youre full of more shit than a christmas goose. israel had and has the right to do whatever it takes to protect its citizenry.

This is what makes Israels actions all the more appalling. You do not have some lone nut committing and act of terrorism, but an agent of the state acting on it's behest.

does this dynamic not apply to every single other modern civilization too, up to and including us?
did the soviets not mow down afghanis just for shits and giggles?
did we not torture and abuse muslims in the name of democracy?
did georgia not kill people to start shit with russia, and son on and so on?

a chain of command is based on the principal of order while terror tactics favor dissorder.ill take the guys who try to save lives (usualy thier own) whilst murdering rather than those who just seek a higher death toll no matter what it costs.it is a mark of civility, not a great leap but as human beings,it is where we are at.

You are arguably the most intellectual of the Israeli defenders on current. I mean Congooy and Crystalman are interesting characters, but intellects not so much. I would EXPECT for them to use the argument "They do it, so it must be ok and moral." I expect much more from you however.

One would hope Israel would not use Hamas, abu ghraib, & the Russian Occupation of Afghanistan as their Moral yardsticks of expectable action. I mean even if you believe that Israel has the right to storm a ship in INTERNATIONAL waters shooting a 19 year old kid armed with a pipe/stick 5 times is EXCESSIVE in any ones book.

I am an AVID tactical/defensive shooter 2 shots center mass is standard. 4 to the chest 1 to the head thats a Mob hit not a tactical take down!

my arguement isnt as much based in defending israel, as it is in fighting antisemitism.crystalman isnt one for reaching out to others perspectives, and i have no idea what congo's deal is.i have no problem being wrong, or accepting israel's wrongs, just not while ignoring thier context.that is a method of antisemitism wether one realizes it or not.it would be the same one sided bullshit perspective if one were to damn the soviets for amassing a nuclear arsenal, while ignoring ours.
you can take any number of events or actions, and use them to demonize israel by ignoring why they happened.just as i could do the same to the palastinians to no end, just a fruitless cycle.

my argument is proportionalism.im not claiming any act by the virtue of it being common, makes it moraly acceptable.wrong is wrong regardless of who or why, but it isnt a perfect world where any nation walks a perfect line.we all do the same as israel and the palastinians, even without the pressure they are under.we are attacking terrorist targets killing civilians despite or day to day existance not being dependant upon it, but we are mad at israel for doing the same while thier daily existance is actualy under threat.same goes for the palastinians.they are fighting from below trying to gain some high ground, but the acts of terror happening throughout the world arent a result of people in similar situations.the wtc bomber's existance wasnt under threat and still he went the way of terror, and so on.
demonizing the nation more than the act, while ignoring the big picture is just rediculous.

any nation has the right to storm any ship that poses a threat to its soveriegnty.i dont care of that ship is captained by muppets.if thier intent is destructive, i dont care if it is israel,china,russia,or fucking anyone, they have the right to protect themselves as efficiently as they can.

it always makes me laugh (not down playing your position just saying) when humanatarians cry foul that children are being killed by these military forces, but are ignoring how they got in that position to begin with.it is a literal form of ignorance.ignoring that those who should protect them the most, family are in error.its like how the religious right says gay marraige changes our society cuz as a result the boston catholic shurch has been removed from the states adoption process, while ignoring the fact that the church has the option of not having an anti gay stance.it isnt gay marrage that got them kicked out, but thier no adoption to gay couples policy.it isnt israel who sought kids to shoot, it was kids who sought confronting soldiers.

thier is a famous picture of a palastinian about 40 or so running through the streets carrying his bullet riddled dying son.screaming and crying he carries his son in the hopes of saving his life, that the israelis attempted to take.that picture has made in from here to the times and back.the thing is though when i was trolling through theync.com i happened across the video that showed what preceeded it.same father was throwing rocks at israeli soldiers, and waving on others, including his son to follow in suit.they ran down a smoke filled alley and then came back with the kid shot.
yes a soldier who was well armed and trained shot this kid armed with only stones.but at the same time it was while dozens of other people,children and adults were rushing the soldiers.

all i know is if shit goes down for us, our moms and dads would tell us to go inside, not encite us to attack soldiers, as being shot is the result.wether in is a riot in minsk,utah,or ontario.attack soldiers, you will be shot.

you are placing your standards on them.its like us getting mad at the chinese for eating dogs when they have famine.it is easy to sit here in the land of milk and honey and criticize the flaws of other nations with out walking a mile in thier shoes.why not check out the stats on dead kids in our civil war.maybe our tactical efforts are the result of not being under siege ever, and the idf is more mob hit style as its situation requires it.shit our cia cant seem to successfully kill anyone,from fidel to any random terrorist in jordan while mossad has been putting two in the backs of heads for decades.
you wanna talk apples and oranges.

Point well made.

why thank you sir (tips hat)

Excuse me?

probably more intellectual than you give us credit for. but unlike freecrack, we hold down jobs and dont have as much free time to delve as deep into issuses or our response to them as he does. catch us on a good day.

This is the point of the UN every nation has a voice and it's not like Israel does not have sympathizers on the world stage. True the is not perfect and needs to be revamped but more so for the security council then the actual body. You cannot agrue that boarding this ship in international waters was in direct violation of the law there is no wiggle room.

actualy a great deal of wiggle room exists as international law is subjective.no reference material exist for any nation to look to in how to handle this situation.i mean if a war ship were coming israel would be with in thier right right, so why hot a ship that is masquerading as a humanatarian aid ship despite actualy being a war ship.
http://current.com/news/92637910_flotilla-follow-up-apathy.htm
the notion that it was a humanatarian aid ship has been disproven, but as always that information is proliferated to a miniscule degree compared to the original story that painted israel as aggressors.
fact: the ship had aide supplies that were more that of garage sales throw aways than viable goods, up to and including long expired medications.
the ship had dozens of jihadis on the ship, who made martyr videos before setting sail in hope of being killed in the conflict they deired to start.

aggressive ship met aggressiveley, unlike the five preceeding ships that were boarded with out incident.

at the end of the day does it really matter that it happened at x amount of miles from shore or closer in? the 9 dead would have just been killed on a different patcof sea.it is a bullhit point that destracts the conversation from substative points.not point at you, but those who are still reaching for a reason to blame a soveriegn nation for doing what any soveriegn nation would have done.reaching for technicalities.

i find your comments unfailingly dreary, distasteful and ugly. You're the quintessential no-nothing armchair critic driven by a vicious streak. You pretend to be balanced and fair but every time you inflict other members with your faux-reasoning the same old bigotry and calumny leaks out like pus.

You cannot pick and choose the international laws you abide by it is an all or nothing deal. Israel is a member of the United Nations and of the International community and as such is bound by the laws and charters of the organization. How am I a bigot for pointing out that Israel engaged in unlawful warfare against a turkish vessel in international waters. I do not hate Israel not do I wish it any harm. However I am well within my right to criticize any nation for flagrant violation of the law and I would as quick to judge your or my own nation of the same thing. It is a week man who cannot admit the failings of his nation and a blind man who cannot see both sides of the argument.

I don't care about the ships intent. The laws are clear and are there for a reason. Any vessle may pass without hinderance by any nation through internation waters for any reason.

The interception of this vessle in international waters (i.e. that it happened x amount of miles from shore) is the only thing that matters. You notice I specifically left out the use of force against this vessle given the rhetoric and "self defense" of the ships occupents. There is a discussion to be had regarding the amount of force used against the ships occupiers but here we have a instance where Israel is in direct violation of the law and even now you cannot say that what they did was wrong. Eventually your going to have to admit that Israel isn't perfect and has it's failings. Doing so would only lend more credability to your arguments in other areas.

Arguing with you guys is starting to be like arguing with the religious right... it doesn't matter how much eveidence you are shown tot he contrary you stick to your guns and are unmovable.

Fuck international law. It doesn't exist. And neither does the international community. What you're saying is worthless and irrelevant self righteous BS.

lets look at it another way. the supreme court recently struck down a law preventing legal hand gun ownership in the city of chicago. immediately following the city of chicago created a law only allowing citizens to use said hand gun within the confines of their dwelling. this does not include your front porch, yard or garage. so essentially, someone of questionable intent can not be fired upon anywhere else on your property. so essentially it is illegal to shoot a potential criminal who may be threatening your family in your own garage. if it were my garage and my family at risk, regardless of the law i would fire upon or at the very least question and search said intruder. fuck the law when it comes to protecting a family or a nation. laws are not always just, moral or ethical. a world body of anti-semites is not a world body anyone wants to listen to other than more anti-semites.

becuase you can debate the point at wich it is ok to attack or not, but at the end of the day that is an argument of luxury.a luxury we as westerners have as we dont live under constant ever present attempts at our destruction.what we experience as "terrorism" is what israel calls tuesday.

we do not support israel blindly.crystalman while brash has a rediculous amount of information about this.more so than most to say the least, and with the full scope of events has crystal has concluded israel is in the right.nothing you or i could say will change his mind.bring new info, new events, and that is something else.but as it is we are aware of the full picture(not that you arent) and as a result support the democracy over the rogue terror civilization.

personaly i will be moved.im pro israel, but really not by much.i see israel as the clear dominant power, thier fore having the greatest responsability in resolving this conflict.i know israel hasnt on thier end, made peace that easy.
with that being said, compared to the palastinians being evaluated equaly, israel wins hands down.while israel has more than her fair share of errors, the palastinians in the big picture are the costco of violence.while israel may suck in many regards, the palastinians exceed that by eons.i feel bad for them, truly i do. no one should have to live the lives they are forced to live, but at the same time the rights of the palastinians cant come at the expense of the israelis.

in a time of war israel is bound by nothing

not improve? just abandon?

To improve it, first it would have to be dismantled and completely restructured... but the member demagogues and despots won't relinquish their convenient tool of corruption willingly, you can be sure of that.

What country exactly would you like to use your nuclear weapons on? The face of warfare has changed. The United States will never meet an enemy on a field of battle like you did in WWI and II. Guerrilla warfare is the new norm. If there ever is a nuclear threat it will not come from a nation but a terrorist group from within a nation. To fire a nuke at nation who posed a threat not as the nation itself but because of a group within that nations borders operating outside the nation would be the worst kind of war crime... Nukelear weapons are not and will never be an effective deterant in todays armed conflicts.

as nations go, i think nuclear weapons have become more a status symbol than anything else.i dont see any nation dropping a nuke either.but i do see jihadis, or any person in martyr mde doing it.

I believe you are right.

You seem to be forgetting the fact the ship was in international waters and Israel had no right to board the ship under any circumstances. regardless of the ships intentions until it officially entered the territorial waters it was non of Israels concern. You cannot explain away the laws every other peaceful nation must abide by. Israel broke the law own up to it and lets move on.

please site the law that they broke.
the law that they agreed to then ignored.
international law is subjective and largely unwritten.not only do they have the right to defend themselves to what ever distance they want (as some, how in order for us to be safe we need to defend ourselves from afghanastan and iraq, far beyond international waters) and they were goaded into it.

what result do you suppose the "humanatarian aid" ship was looking to get by mocking the holocaust in thier transmissions? just wondering how that represents non aggressive people to be left alone?

International law is not subjective. All nations that are member states of the United Nations must abide by these rules, laws and charters. If Israel wishes to do whatever it wants then perhaps it should withdraw from the UN. The UN law states that a nations territorial waters extend at most twelve nautical miles (22.224 km) from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of the coastal state. This is not up for debate. The law does not say we recommend or a minimum distance. This is the distance every nation must adhere to.

No nation has any right to attack another nation outside or even inside its territorial waters without provocation. I don't believe Israel would have been found at fault for intercepting these ships inside their territorial waters but I don't believe the flotilla members rhetoric would be considered just cause of the boarding.

Israel effectively attacked Turkey in an unprovoked act of war against a peaceful nation. This is unacceptable under any circumstances. This flotilla did not pose any threat to Israel and certainly didn't need to be boarded by commandos.

Just goes to show how much IDF leaders care about civilian casualties.

arent we high and mighty as we are playing to the same strategic thought process.only we dont even risk our snipers we use drones and kill way more civilians as a result.but keep pointing the finger at some one else like we arent the great death machine.

I never even mentioned the US in any of this. I dont support many of our policies as far as what is and what is not considered a legitimate target. I support the use of drones however, there seriously needs to be a better way of using them. Waaaaaay too many civilians are dying at the hands of operators thousands of miles away from the battlefield.

yeah and the palastinians are hyper concerned comparatively, but just point the finger at one side like that is reasonable.

and why do you support drones?
if i may be so bold as to assume becuase it removes our soldiers from harm right?
so why are the israelis wrong for wanting to do the same thing(in using snipers) we actualy do(in using drones) that is viewed as right?even as our version of removing our soldiers from danger results in greater civilian casualties.

out of curiosity when at what point does a civilian become a terrorist or at least an insurgent? cuz prior to boarding the flotilla the "civlilians" israel was talking about sniping were telling the israelis how they will be driven into the see and the holocaust was just the beggining.just curious what constitutes provocation to you.
http://current.com/news/92637910_flotilla-follow-up-apathy.htm
if some ship were trying to break a blockade we set up on our borders and invoked 9-11, would be be aprehensive at sniping them?by the way 9-11 was used also by the "humanatarian" ship as a threat.

Again youre assuming a lot. Havent we had a bunch of these discussions before? BOTH the Palestinians and the Israelis have a lot to answer for and neither seem willing or able to man up to their mistakes. The conflict will last forever until both sides realize that they cant get everything that they want and they need to reach a compromise.

I will admit however that i am generally a little bias against Israel because they should know better. They are the Westernized Democracy in this situation and they shouldnt be using such brutal heavy-handed tactics in dealing with civilians. How did that work out for the British Empire? Or the Romans for that matter? If the people hate you then it will be impossible to achieve peace. This goes for the US as well.

huge yawn

honestly im sure we have, but i dont recall your position wich means its probably a moderate one lol.
while both sides have a lot to answer for, but when one states palastinian terrorism with out israeli ction relatin to it it is muslim bashing right? the same goes for calling out israel and not acknowledging the reasons why they do as they do.i think the scary part is both own up to thier negative behaviors, but dont see them as mistakes, but the thing the other guy forced them to do, thus self validating negative behavior.if they owned thier mistakes they would acknowledge being wrong, both sides are claiming to the other forcing thier negative behavior from them, that otherwise they wouldnt do.scary mindset for people.

you are a little bias cuz you seem to analogously viewing israel as colonialism.the palastinians arent a colony of israel, or even subject to israeli law, in gaza or the west bank.the palastinians that live inside israel are free to leave anytime they want but just wont leave.the english and the romans were riegning over territories that would from time to time have a rebellion.
the palastinians have thier own governments that create thier own destiniy, not strictly israel's decree.israel has shut dowm borders to nieghboring people at war with them, a far cry from colonialism, but the most basic level of self defense.the palastinians have open borders to jordan and thier own issues with the egyptians.that isnt israels fault.its like that kid that is always in some shit, but no one ever says "ever notice its always with you though".the fate of the palastinians exists soley in the hands of the palastinians.not egypt,jordan,syria,iran,or israel.

i will admit as the regional superpower israel carries the greater wieght in finding resolution, but at the same time even if peace with the palastinians were priority number one for them what else are they to do.over the last 62 yrs they have literaly tried every angle concievable.if you can offer what israel should be doing and is instead not, ill blame israel for the continuing conflict.but as i cant think of anything else they can do, i have no choice but to let them off the hook in regards to thier responsability to this.they tried everything but still failed.

Sorry i know all you like to hear is lets kill all the muslims.