Community | September 28, 2010 | 74 comments

Separation of Church and State? Myth vs.Reality

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congoboy
Separation of Church and State - The Metaphor and the Constitution
"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized. Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business. Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.

The constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Both the free exercise clause and the establishment clause place restrictions on the government concerning laws they pass or interfering with religion. No restrictions are placed on religions except perhaps that a religious denomination cannot become the state religion.

However, currently the implied common meaning and the use of the metaphor is strictly for the church staying out of the state's business. The opposite meaning essentially cannot be found in the media, the judiciary, or in public debate and is not any part of the agenda of the ACLU or the judiciary.

This, in conjunction with several other factors, makes the "separation of church and state" metaphor an icon for eliminating anything having to do with Christian theism, the religion of our heritage, in the public arena. One of these factors is the use of the metaphor in place of the actual words of the constitution in discourse and debate. This allows the true meaning of the words in the constitution to be effectively changed to the implied meaning of the metaphor and the effect of the "free exercise" clause to be obviated. Another factor facilitating the icon to censor all forms of Christian theism in the public arena is a complete misunderstanding of the "establishment" clause.

Separation of Church and State - The Establishment Clause in Context
In addition to the "Separation of Church and State" metaphor misrepresenting the words of the establishment clause, the true meaning of the establishment clause is also misrepresented. The "establishment" clause states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." Before these words can be put in context and the true meaning of the clause can be correctly identified, we need to examine the word "religion" and put it in America's historical context at the time the constitution was framed. In addition, we need to examine the previous European historical background of the founders of our country to identify what specifically motivated them to place the "establishment" clause in the constitution.

To accomplish this, we need to add more specificity to the word "religion" to clarify both the American and European historical backgrounds and put the word "religion" in proper context. We need to delineate between doctrinal and denominational religion. We also need to understand that the doctrinal religion being discussed is Christian Theism, which is defined by a belief in the Bible. We know what specific Christian denominational religions are.

Separation of Church and State - Constitution Framers Historical Context
# The "Separation of Church and State" metaphor blurs the distinction between a doctrinal religion and a denominational religion. This places the doctrinal religion we have embraced in the same basket as an organized denominational religion with potential to merge with the state. The documentary evidence of the doctrinal Christian religion origin of this nation is voluminous. The Supreme Court thoroughly studied this issue, and in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion! Some additional evidences that indicate Christian Theism was the national doctrinal religion are listed below: Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."
# The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
# God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
# As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.
# Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
# The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.
# Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
# Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
# Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
# Our national anthem mentions God.
# The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
# The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.
# Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.
# Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.
# The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools. http://www.allabouthistory.org/separation-of-church-and-state.htm
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74 comments // Separation of Church and State? Myth vs.Reality

  • 1may_flower
    • 0
      1may_flower  

    • Alicynx, here are the other two links, I hope. Have a blessed evening!

      Sorry I give up for tonight. I sent the wrong link. I will send them tomorrow.
      Have a blessed night!

    • 1 year ago
  • 1may_flower
    • 0
      1may_flower  
    • Image

    • Dear Alicynx I just spent hours getting links and quoting from them But, I just erased my statements regarding them, however here are the links that explain the "first governing document ' of the colonies; which were the were the 13 colonies that became the United States of America ( including Plymouth , Mass), and that WRITTEN reference of the PILGRIMS landing on a rock was 121 years after they landed. Could this be the reason you thought they arrived much later? The Mayflower Compact link states that "Almost half of the colonists were part of a separatist group seeking the freedom to practice Christianity according to their own determination and NOT THE WILL OF THE ENGLISH CHURCH." It was signed on Nov 11,1620 Thus, the U S. Constitution FIRST Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an ESTABLISHMENT of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

      Therefore the intent of this AMENDMENT is for the GOVERNMENT to stay out of religion, and not vice versa, that religion cannot be included in the GOVERNMENT.

      (I'm new at sending links and having trouble sending the other 2. I will send them separately because I don't want to lose my comments like I did last time).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies

    • 1 year ago
  • alicynx
    • 0
      alicynx  
    • 1may_flower:

      okay, I'm confused; are you trying to say that the Mayflower Compact was written 121 years after the Mayflower landed, or are you trying to say that the 13 colonies were the original colonists in America? .
      The Mayflower Compact was written to oversee the Mayflower colony only, as even your own linked document states clearly. Misquoting is bad and will get you fired ^_^ The link YOU provided has the first sentence:

      "The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony."

      They STILL weren't the first colonists, as there were successful colonies here before them. They weren't even the first British settlement! They were, however, likely the first permanent settlement that moved across the pond purely for religious reasons, so perhaps that's why some cling to this idea that they were the first. I just don't know, but it's wrong.
      I have no idea what you're talking about with the 121 years business - especially when, again, your own link points out that they landed in 1620:

      "In November 1620, the Mayflower landed at Plymouth..."

    • 1 year ago
  • 1may_flower
    • 0
      1may_flower  

    • Hello, Ian_Judge_lord. I love Wikipedia. It's fairly new to me although U. S. History is not. Regarding our National Anthem, in the 3rd line from the bottom, of the 4th verse, as it was written by Francis Scott Key during the War of 1812, you will find these words:

      And this be our motto: "In God is our trust".

      Bombs and rockets are referred to in the lyrics because he observed them during the War while he was penning the poem.

    • 1 year ago
  • 1may_flower
    • -1
      1may_flower  

    • I have one comment. Please read the MAYFLOWER COMPACT. Have you ever heard of it? Probably not because secular humanism has removed it from public school text books over the past 50 - 60 years.

      It was the FIRST "governing document" of the Plymouth Colony. What is that, you ask?

      THEY, the original COLONISTS, landing at Plymouth Rock, wrote the document, "In the name of God, Amen.", as loyal subjects of King James, "for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country,.....".

      LOOK IT UP! It's in "Wikipedia" (which to my knowledge is a secular web site).
      (Thank God for His truth).

      May you all be blessed with the truth of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!

      SORRY, I ONLY MEANT TO MAKE ONE COMMENT, BUT, AS I GOT STARTED THE "HOLY SPIRIT" GAVE ME MORE TO SAY. What is that, you ask?

      PLEASE LOOK "HIM" UP!

      LOVE TO ALL!!!! (Especially Autark, whom, the Lord has helped me to remember. You, Loved One, will be in my prayers).

    • 1 year ago
  • alicynx
  • 1may_flower
    • 0
      1may_flower  
    • alicynx:

      To whom are you referring? They were the original Colonists from England who established the original 13 colonies of the United States of America as we know it today. Please enlighten me.

    • 1 year ago
  • 1may_flower
  • alicynx
    • 0
      alicynx  
    • 1may_flower:

      Do you honestly believe that there was absolutely no colonization between 1492 and 1620, by anyone at all? Do you cling that hopelessly to your public secondary school education?

      As much as I am loath to use it, here is a resource to educate you:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_history_of_the_United_States

      The disparities between the governing structure of the Plymouth colony and the thirteen British colonies are varied and wide; the work of the Pilgrims cannot, and should not, ever be construed to be the true founding of this nation. The FIRST British colonists of the "New World" were actually businessmen that came looking for gold and other valuable resources.

    • 1 year ago
  • alicynx
  • PigFarmington
  • congoboy
  • PigFarmington
  • congoboy
  • alicynx
  • noxidereus
    • 0
      noxidereus  

    • "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise"

      Thomas Jefferson

    • 1 year ago
  • Paratus
    • -2
      Paratus  

    • At last, an educated person.
      You speak the truth about the so called, "wall of separation of church and state". The First meant there would be no central government established "official" religion. People were free to worship as they saw fit. Unfortunately, this has been perverted by the American Criminal Laywers Union (ACLU) to the point where the first half of the clause is used to justify NO reference to God or religion under the lie that this, somehow, "establishes" a religion. What these people forget is the second half of the clause.
      Like it or not, this country used to be and at the time of its founding was, a Christian nation. Now, it seems that the very people who beat up on Christianity do not seem to mind the practicing of islam in schools, athiest clubs, or any other type of groups in schools except Christian. Much like racism is a one way concept, it isn't anti religion just anti some religion.

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • alicynx
    • +1
      alicynx  
    • Paratus:

      How many religions use the word "God" to personify their creator? Not Jews, they are not to mention the name of their Lord and so you may see them type G-d. Not Muslims who use the word "Allah". Not Hindus, who have many names for their Gods. In fact, I can only think of one other religion that uses that particular word to characterize the deity they worship, and that is the Neo-Pagan religion. If the term is not important, but the idea is, how would it feel if we rotated the name around? We could call it God on three months of the year, Allah on five, Krishna/Vishnu on a couple, and G-d on the rest. Sound like a plan? No? Then you're establishing that the religion of the government rests on Christianity and/or Paganism. If we want to get to the brass tacks, Christianity is already a syncretized version of Paganism anyway, so in a sense it's already espousing one religion.

      Like it or not, we are not the nation we were 200+ years ago. The safeguards put into place keeping religion from taking over the government are necessary to keep us from becoming a theocracy. There are more religions here now than there were in the 16th century, and like it or not, they have a say in how their country addresses them and their religious rights. Christians cannot place a chokehold on the rights of the people because of the religious preferences of some of the people who founded this country.

    • 1 year ago
  • autark
    • +3
      autark  

    • "the religion of our heritage"...

      This is just more religious propaganda. America is NOT a Christian nation. Never was. Get over it.

      Inherent in not respecting an establishment of one state religion, and allowing free exercise of all, is the separation of church and state. The phrase cuts both ways without explicitly saying "separation", but to allow all to be free to exercise it is necessary to leave religion as a private matter out of the public space.

      You are free to practice your religion, and we are free to not be harassed by it.

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • ReverandG
    • -1
      ReverandG  
    • autark:

      We are indeed a Christian Nation. Deal with the fact. The USA is a Christian Community of Churches. Many faiths, One God and his only Son. Some faiths are a tad confused shall I say, but we all honor The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
      You my friend are a minority, which is your right.

    • 1 year ago
  • alicynx
  • Nephwrack
  • congoboy
  • Dagum
  • congoboy
  • toyotabedzrock
  • congoboy
  • ReverandG
  • toyotabedzrock
  • congoboy
    • -2
      congoboy  
    • toyotabedzrock:

      the aclu originated as a worthy altruistic organization. in recent times it has been perverted like many once respectable institutions into a menagerie of pock faced, self centered, self interested, leftest, america hating zombies.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +3
      Ian_Judge_Lord  

    • 10.) once more again, that only means that workmen, named John Pass and John Stow, who cast the bell for the steeple of the Pennsylvania State House (Independence Hall) in 1752 [nearly a decade and a half (14 years) before the Declaration of Independence was first written], believed in the Judeo-Christian Faith and felt that a certain passage from Leviticus about Liberty would be appropriately fitting

      11.
      A.) when the Constitution was ratified in 1789, there were on a dozen (13) states
      B.) the Constitution of the United States of America DOES NOT include the word "god"

      12.) The Military armed services under the United States Department of Defense at the Pentagon in Washington DC (its really in Arlington, Virginia)
      employs "chaplains" or "fathers" from every faith in the known world
      For example: at least one army base in Iraq, as we speak at this very moment right now, contains at least one Shinto Shrine to the
      Ancient Japanese Religious Faith of Taoism

      13.) FACT: In all of the founding document of the United States, the word "god" appears exactly precisely ONCE; and it is DIRECTLY PRECEDED by the word "NATURE"; and i quote:
      "...and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."
      ---Declaration of Independence of the United States of America by Third President of the United States Thomas Jefferson

      14.) only in "Religious Studies" classes
      anything further has been ruled to be UnConstitutional by the High Courts of our own Judicial System

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +3
      Ian_Judge_Lord  

    • 1.) As the Article itself states, the building was built in during the Great Depression, in 20th Century, very nearly almost 200 years after the nation began

      2.) that only means that whomever the people were who constructed the said monuments believed in some religion or another, not at all unusual in a nation with people from every religion known to exist

      3.)The celebration of Christmas is in no way, shape, or form at all whatsoever related to Jesus, who, according to the new Testament, was born in March or April.
      What we know as "Christmas" is actually the Ancient Roman Festival of Saturnalia, a celebration of their Pagan god "Sol Invictus" ["Unconquered Sun"]. Who, according to the Myth of the ancient Persian God Mithras (the Greek Sun God Helios), was born on December 25 to a Virgin mother, now known as the Constellation of Virgo (also called the "bread house", which translates into Hebrew as "Bethlehem")

      4.) In many languages all around the known world, the word for "god" is the same as the word for "truth" and/or "justice"; and the pledge in court goes as follows "to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

      5.) “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
      - Benjamin Franklin
      “In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it.”
      -Benjamin Franklin
      “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
      -Benjamin Franklin

      “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.”
      -Thomas Jefferson
      “We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication.”
      -Thomas Jefferson
      “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world,
      And I do not find in our particular superstition (orthodox Christianity) one redeeming feature.
      They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
      -Thomas Jefferson

      6.) "God Bless America" or "God Bless the United States" is a pretty standard boiler-plate sign-off for Presidents at the end of EVERY speech, even at campaign rallies

      7.) Whether or not to have or not to have a church figure at their swearing-in inaugural ceremony is choice that every single President-elect has made for themselves
      which is why we have religious figureheads from just about every denomination in the Judeo-Christian religion at the 58 inaugural ceremonies the Capitol Building has hosted since the First President was sworn in

      8.)Nowhere in the Constitution does it mandate that the President must be sworn in on a bible. He or she could be sworn in on any published document they so chose; (including, but not limited to, Playboy or Hustler and FHM or Maxim Magazines, as well as the Sports Illustrated Annual Swimsuit Issue)
      unfortunately for the Onion and the Daily Show, no President has had those kind of cojones...YET.

      9.) No, it does not:

      "O! say can you see by the dawn's early light,
      What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
      Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
      O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming.
      And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
      Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
      O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
      O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

      [I can't find the word "god" anywhere in there, can you?]

      The "Star-Spangled Banner", written during a battle in the War of 1812, is, however, the only National Anthem in the English-Speaking Western world to ever mention the word "bombs".

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • congoboy:

      I suppose my actual point really is
      That when you have people like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the Third and Fourth Presidents of the United States [both of them Deists like myself, and Freemasons )
      create a document like the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights to the Constitution of the United States of America,
      ["Congress Shall Make No Law Respecting An Establishment of Religion, Nor Prohibiting The Free Exercise Thereof..."]
      even if you do have 38 Christian Presidents in a row (every POTUS since John Quincy Adams in 1829)
      and more mega-Churches per square millimeter than schools and colleges
      a majority population of Christians DOES NOT a "Christian Nation" make!

    • 1 year ago
  • iamaman
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • iamaman
    • +3
      iamaman  
    • Ian_Judge_Lord:

      good for you. obviously there are others here that really know to much about him. notice the three down votes? he has a libertarian youtube channel or something and encourages his "followers" to flood Current with their anti obama rants.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +7
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • Image

    • Thank God We Are Not a Christian Nation

      http://judgian12365.wordpress.com/2010/08/30/thank-god-we-are-not-a-christian-na...

      “Congress Shall Make No Law Respecting An Establishment Of Religion, Nor Prohibiting The Free Exercise Thereof…”

      -First Amendment of the Bill of Rights to the Constitution of the United States of America

      By Thomas Jefferson And James Madison
      Ratified By The Continental Congress,
      Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1789

      “As The Government Of The United States Of America Is Not, In Any Sense, Founded On The Christian Religion.”
      -Treaty Of Tripoli Art. 11.

      Signed By Second President of the United States John Adams himself, And Ratified By The United States Senate, June 7, 1797,

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +1
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • congoboy:

      everyone in the security business knows that nuclear weapons are not the greatest danger to world, the greatest threat to civilization is nuclear weapons in the hands of religious fundamentalist extremist fanatics

      the leader of every western nation, including the President of every western nuclear power, is under the leadership of Christians, (Every President of the United States since John Quincy Adams, the Sixth POTUS, has been a Christian)
      that means that 9/10 of all of the world's nuclear weapons are in the hands of Christians

      Christians are the most unstable and violence-prone people in the history of the human race

      Human civilization existed for 10,000 years before the first Christians appeared
      however, just in the last two millennia, christians have killed more people, and Christianity has caused more and bloodier wars in the history of our society
      more people have killed and died in the name of Christianity than anything else in world history
      Christians have been the instigators of every single one of the wars and genocidal atrocities in the recorded history of the known world in the last 2,000 years

      if he so chose, the Pope, with a single word and/or wave of his hand, could command all of his followers to exterminate any and all "non-believers", to kill all people of all other religious faiths
      this would incite a religious holy war on a scale unlike anything ever seen in the history of humanity
      and while not all Christians follow the pope, as "non-believers", under this command, they would also be killed too, along with around about approximately roughly five sixths of the world population (only one billion people, or 1/8 in the world are christian)

    • 1 year ago
  • ReverandG
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • ReverandG:

      Name to me one major war or genocidal atrocity in history of the known world in the past 2,000 years that was NOT caused or instigated by the Christian church

      i have never met anyone who can name a single one, but i've only been to 6 foreign nations and 36 out of the 50 states
      there are still 14 states i have never been to
      so i'm still very much open to the new possibilities

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • ReverandG:

      Christians have killed more people in more ways and at more times and places than any other single group of people in the history of the human race

      more people have died, killed and been killed in the name of Jeshua Ben Josef of Nazareth, the ORIGINAL Liberal Hippie Pacifist, than any other mythology in the history of human thought

      and that's just in last two millenia

      Just to name a very few of the many:
      The Crusades, the Reformation Genocides, the Inquisition, the systematic extermination the Native American Civilizations, the holocaust, the massacres in India and Africa, and, let us not forget, the Bush-Cheney Regime's "Crusade" terrorist invasion and occupation against the Muslim Arabic world in the Middle East and West Asia

    • 1 year ago
  • pjacobs51
    • +13
      pjacobs51  
    • Image

    • One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

      When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

      The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

      The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion". This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

      If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

      Consider this: IF indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, would there ever have been a revolution at all?

    • 1 year ago
  • kennymotown
  • congoboy
  • kennymotown
  • pjacobs51
    • +3
      pjacobs51  
    • congoboy:

      Your knowledge of history is at best, delusional. Here's another lesson, of then and now.

      I might add, that if you prefer a religious government, you might try Saudi Arabia. I hear their crime rate is very low, those public beheadings work wonders.

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • noxidereus
  • pjacobs51
    • +3
      pjacobs51  
    • congoboy:

      I thought you righties wanted God in your government. Saudi Arabia is a prime example of the theocracy you seem to crave. And why the founding fathers wanted NOTHING to do with it.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +1
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • pjacobs51:

      so would the Biblical justice system with executions by burnings and stonings for things like
      gardening (planting different crops side by side; Deuteronomy 22:9, Deuteronomy 22:9-11, Deut. 22:9-12, Leviticus 19:19)
      and sewing (wearing garments made from two different threads; Deuteronomy 22:11, Exodus 26:1, Exodus 28:6, 8, 15 and 39:29)

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • pjacobs51
    • +3
      pjacobs51  
    • Ian_Judge_Lord:

      No one expects the American Inquisition . . .

      "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
      ~ James Madison

    • 1 year ago
  • ReverandG
  • pjacobs51
    • +2
      pjacobs51  
    • ReverandG:

      Perhaps you mis-understood me, that was not a promotion, it was a warning, of what happens when you combine god and government. A prime example of why the founding fathers made sure their was a separation of church and state.

      "No one wants a unification of church and state but the Islamists."
      . . . maybe you should have a word with the poster of this article about that, he seems to have a different opinion.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • littlwarrior
    • +4
      littlwarrior  

    • 1. "The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments" : It also has statues of Muhamed and Hamurabi, the goal was to have the greates judges and lawmakers of all history there are many many more
      2. "God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings" God or creator were generally used to reference a universal and uncaring being most of our founding fathers were deists, most of them detested any form of organized religion.
      3. "As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries." Our nation has had a christian majority since its inception, that does not however infer anything on how our founding fathers intended the country to be ran, in all probability they, like many today, just liked a good party with lots of food and gift giving.
      4. "Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning." again deists.
      5. "The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings." the bible is the vey first record we have of a comprhensive law therfore a must read for anyone making a system of law, that does not mean they wanted the laws to be the same, otherwise we would have stoned alot of people. Including Benjamin Franlkin. He did afterall see a woman naked that was not his wife.
      6. "Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech." Dude deists
      7. "Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president." Merly a nod to the masses little more. Thomas Jefferson himself said "In every country in every age, the preist has been hostile to liberty..."
      8. Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
      Again a nod to the masses with little personal meaning our great leader Thomas Jefferson agian said "I do not find in christianity one redeeming feature. It has made one half the world fools, the other half hypocrites"
      9. "Our national anthem mentions God." Who said a country's government is defined by its anthem? Also our national anthem was written in 1812 36 years after revolution, when a good number of our founding fathers were already dead, or moved out of the country.
      10. "The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it." The bible was a very popular book back in the day, some people would go their whole lives and having seen only one book, that being the bible, most of those couldnt even hope to read it.
      11."The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God." Again deists.
      12. "Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning." As they have been in most governments, but as we have no official religion we employ chaplins from every religion availible and required.
      13. "Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times." Written by my fav Mr. Jefferson, see above quotes to get a feel for his religious fervor.
      14. "The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools." More because it was the most common and often cheap book to get to help people to learn to read write and speak properly, as stadard english was created because of the king james bible.

    • 1 year ago
  • littlwarrior
    • +2
      littlwarrior  
    • littlwarrior:

      In short trying to infuse our government with religious ideals is not only pointless but an insult to our founding fathers. You cannot have freedom without seperation of church and state sorry it just doesnt work, religions will always opress someone.

    • 1 year ago
  • congoboy
  • littlwarrior
  • kennymotown
  • congoboy
    • -2
      congoboy  
    • kennymotown:

      actually k'mofo im jewish. better yet a conservative jew, i know i'm a bit of an anomaly but there are a few of us with rational thought. and im honored that you take the time to keep track of my freedom of expression.

    • 1 year ago
  • kennymotown
  • alicynx
  • congoboy
  • alicynx
  • congoboy
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