As long as Democrats make excuses for Obama, however, we are really no better than the GOPers.

As long as Democrats make excuses for Obama--just like the GOPers made excuses for Bush/Cheney--the key thing necessary to stop this atrocity---the willingness of Democrats to speak truth to power---will not occur.

Indeed, if we, as Democrats, use excuses and try to shift blame to the GOPers for Obama's actions, we prevent Obama suffering the harsh reality of being denounced by those in his own political party, the ones who made him president.

In today's political climate, for a bunch of Republican voters and politicians to criticize a Democratic president carries little credibility and power. Republicans have shown they are all too willing to apply the cowardice of using a double-standard when judging their own politicians.

It's only when the people who carry the responsibility for having elected Obama as president stand up and say, without excuse, blame-shifting, or equivocation, that Obama is wrong and he is harming our country, that the criticism is credible.

John, your post is nothing but a scam to hide the fact that you are trying to get free advertising from Current.TV.

Your dishonest actions undercut every word of your sales material: if you are dishonest about your advertising, it is quite probable you are dishonest about what you are selling, too.

Websites with message boards, like Current, help stay alive by the advertisers who pay to have ads on the website.

What advertiser would want to pay for advertising when scammers get it for free?

I am requesting that you, please, take your scam advertising and your scam product elsewhere. Current is at a cross-roads, with Keith Olbermann soon to come on board, and many of us are hoping this will be a very successful venture for KO and for Current.

Advertising scammers, like you, decrease the possibility of that success happening because you undercut the potential for the kind of $$$ backing to help Current, and KO, to broaden their appeal.

rightwing prick------Neocongo thinks I'm a right wing prick---------in answer Neocongo, You should read posts completely before judging others. The term "up the flagpole" was meant to mean PAY ATTENTION-------NOT HANG THE PRESIDENT! We all make mistakes, I voted for Obama, I volunteered and worked for Obama, and I sent Obama's Election fund money. I stopped supporting Obama one month after he took office-----when he did not stop the Iraq War as promised------so piss off neocongo!

ITA. He's turned out to be a Bait-and-Switch scam artist.

Right on target as always Alexandrek. Bush/Cheny/Nobama are all so
predictable & consistent they resemble a bad knockoff of that Sergio
Leone movie: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. With one major difference.
The reason why their bad playhouse is such a bad knockoff, and so evil
is that there is no one of them playing the Good. At least when Clint
Eastwood played the Good, he accomplished what he promised to do.
When Lee Van Cleef and Eli Wallach played the Bad, and the Ugly, they
too accomplished what they promised to. Nobama is a tragic farce, and
his tyrany won't be ignored by honest citizens who care about the USA
anymore than Bush's tyrany will be ignored. Bush WILL be brought to
Justice one way or the other because the statutes of limitations on his
war crimes and crimes against the State's crim statutes aren't expired.
Even scalywag Nobama can't cover for his carpetbag partner in crime
Hitler Bush forever. As time heals all wounds, time wounds all heals too.
Karma is the only thing that's constant. What goes around comes around.

What IS very dangerous to Democracy are his apologizers who'd rather
side with him and disregard the principles & values America was built on.
That's how the Fuhrer got started. Their brainwashed also had a mesiah
complex about Hitler too. Bush was one of Hitler's followers. Nobama is
one of Bush's followers. And the rabble are Nobama's followers. They're
nothing new. Winston Churchill had Hitler pegged right. He simply called
him " The Maniac " Not a maniac, but rather THE maniac. Elderly French
citizens remember what he did to them and France. How anyone falsely
accused during the reign of terror of the 3rd Reich was guilty until proven
innocent. That evil which is going on now in the USA, is UnAmerican. We
are all expendable, but the USA is not. So when some evil bastards like Bush/Cheny/Nobama thumb their noses, and shoot a moon, at our legacy,
they only show how self destructively foolish they realy are. The reason why
America will remain free after all 3 of those worm meat are dust is exactly
because God is on our side, not theirs. " Power corrupts, absolute power
corrupts absolutely " The reason why our American values have endured
is based on social Justice which is a spiritual attitude. Time will prove that.
We trust in God, not in Musolini Nobama.

Comparing Obama to Hitler? Blatant, unoriginal right wing prick. Why should we listen to you? We should not.

Musolini Nobama? Buddhist my ass. You are a southern redneck teajadist.

http://trolling.no

Wrong again on 4 counts, and you're still batting 0. No, you never learn.
You still ignore people's reasoned objections and resort to name calling
that's tantamount to mud slinging. Your groping in the dark attempts to label
me and others are laughable. Is that why you call yourself what you do,
" go Neo Con " ? You're not going anywhere with this lame tach of attacking
anyone whose comments you disagree with, because as mentioned, you don't
talk facts. If you stopped to think of facts, you'd be inclined to respond
appropriately with reason, and forgo the abuse, instead of reacting emotionaly,
and spewing abuse. You've attacked other community members often on this
website who've flagged you for abuse in violation of community standards.
Every time the staff have to remove your comments they get a little more tired
& annoyed. It's only a matter of time before they suspend you, and ban you.
When they do I doubt anyone will miss your trolling. I almost feel sorry for you.
Your words reflect the way you think. Your words are obviously toxic & wasted
on me. It's not my intent to pick a fight with you, so why don't you desist any
further attempts to provoke animosity, OK ? Bye. See ya, so glad I don't have
to BE ya.

Why is Obama so sacred? He has copied the most heinous of the Bush/Cheney policies/tactics, and many, many people have compared Bush/Cheney to Nazi Germany.

Then he gave Bush/Cheney a free pass for the blood on their hands---insuring he himself will get a free pass, too.

Apparently you haven't heard of "Engaged Buddhism"?

In Burma, the Buddhist monks are very political active, and they risk their lives to do it, too.

Being a "Buddhist" does not mean being a "doormat."

you speak the truth. But like you said THE SYSTEM WILL FAIL either by (what you want) an infomation revolution to the people who will then rise against these Nonrepresenatives. or these Non represenatives do so much harm and only profit themselves that the system will fail because of there actions.
so i guess what i am getting at is we are all subject to fail. we are losers. we are the queer. we are ammunition in the class war. we are parasites feasting on our own shit, unable to change no matter how hard we try. So just stop caring, kill yourself if you like. just leave everyone alone and hope they do nothing back.

"A lot of the time I'd rather pretend people I don't know are way more provocative and fascinating than they would be if I were to actually meet them. It doesn't help much in way of making new friends... but it helps me to not think of the human race as a heaping pile of shit so much. And i dont say that in arrogance, i too am part of that pile"

I do not in any way mean to sound as someone accusing you of being a fundamentalist, but you're speaking in absolutes, which is the first defense of a fundamentalist, you said "so i guess what i am getting at is we are all subject to fail. we are losers. we are the queer. we are ammunition in the class war. we are parasites feasting on our own shit, unable to change no matter how hard we try. So just stop caring, kill yourself if you like. just leave everyone alone and hope they do nothing back."

No, what you must first perceive correctly is reality, not from a fundamentalist point of view, life can be beautiful and wonderful and interesting, but it cannot be from a fundamentalist point of view, fundamentalist deal with absolutes, and as a free intellectual agent, you do not have to be presupposed to such bullshit, you merely need reason, that will get you through to much greater happiness, you are not in any way hopeless, you are able to change, just as anyone is able to change if they understand and recognize the current dysfunctional paradigm, as a member of the human race you are loved by me, and as long as your intention is not to harm others, you should be loved, this is not intended as hippie crystal love energy bullshit, but the fact that you are an intelligent human being, and should be respected as such, as long (and only as long) as you demonstrate that you are. You are correct in saying that we cannot change no matter how we try, but that is only in the context that we continue to exist in the old paradigm, which is basically, genocidal, and cannibalistic.

Although many people kill themselves, it is not a social function, but a selfish one, one that society has no control over, but considering that you are such a wonderful individual, that you are able to express yourself so intelligently, even though I don't know you, I can tell just from the limited correspondence you have sent me, you were obviously perceptive, and it would be a fucking drag, if you were no longer here in the world of the living.Reason gives you the greatest just excuse for living, being right.

So America is going down the shithole months after the repubs take congress and it's all Obama's fault? Right. You need to learn to brevetize; a small pile of shit is still shit, and the V for Vendetta thing? You think there is a totalitarian dictatorship around? Jeezus fucking clueless.

i understand why you would say im a fundamentalist or closed minded. But still i just cant see people ever living in peace. You have great faith in the good of people, and so do i. But the idea that a system can replace a system seems unlikely even if its a utopia like what you seem to be descibing. I have to believe we will fall into chaos. for thats the only way to get rid of the system. And with chaos everyone will be on the same level playing field, yes there will still be violence and death in chaos. but at least it wont be like the systematic killing of the modern world. It will be up to the individual to deal with the violence, either fighting against it, running away, or just do as jesus did and let whatever harm come to you and ask forgiveness for the wrong doer, for he does not know what he is doing... But i do think we are allies, you just believe in order while i believe in chaos. only time will tell which comes true.

p.s. i do practice what i preach. ive never been in a fight up until resently. so i went out started a fight with someone much bigger then me. then let him beat the shit out of me. It was very freeing.

Your personal attacks are getting tiresome. Perhaps a couple of beers and a break will help.

Whatever. There's no reason to personally attack other posters personally. None.

You hate Obama AND Daschle. Tell me what fiction has been spread, republican.

Daschle helped Obama prepare and groom for the Presidential bid and reportedly guided his votes in the Senate in order to remain electable with a centered track record of voting. In reference to the article, Orwellian may be the word that describes best the Obama actions vs. the rhetoric e.g., Bush Tax Cuts, Public Option, War, Torture, Check Card, Bankers, Infrastructure, etc. Daschle was renowned for pandering to Democrats and caving in to the Republicans. And, one reason Daschle gave for leaving the Senate was that as a private citizen, he could do more to help Native Americans. That seems Orwellian as well. As for their stated agendas: just what we wanted to hear. As for their actions: hypocritical. It depends upon whether you would have someone lie to you like a sociopath or have someone lie to you like they just think they are smarter than you are.

Great screen name!

Daschle lost to Thune which is why he went home. If you don't know something as basic as that, why should I waste my time on your perception of Obama's performance? I shouldn't.

You're right! I should have said that one reason Daschle gave when he said he was retiring from politics was: that he could do more for Native Americans as a private citizen. He said he wouldn't be running for office again, he then became a lobbyist. The return favor for mentoring Obama was a position as HHS Secretary. There was an apparent conflict of interest with the Lobbying Firm and it never happened. But you know all of this so I'll just say that Obama seems to be morphing into Bush. I'm rooting for Obama but I wonder who is pulling all of the strings?

You should care about what Obama has done because a lot of it has been as bad as his latest homage to Bush/Cheney.

Obama, who spent about 90% of his campaign bitching about Bush/Cheney, and making specific promises about the changes he would make if we elected him president, has actually copied some of the most heinous practices and policies of the Bush/Cheney administration.

I think, in this case, Obama has learned from Bush/Cheney that it is mighty handy to have a group of scapegoats who can be used to terrorize the American people into doing whatever Obama wants, or Bush/Cheney wanted, to do.

Since these not-accused are kept in secrecy, the American people can't even find out if Gitmo is actually just another Abu Graib. We have no idea of what our government is doing to and with these not-accused individuals.

Obama sold himself on "Hope" and "Change," and he has given us, instead, a Bait-and-Switch Scam of a presidency, which is turning out to be more like the Bush/Cheney administration than it is different.

The last big-campaign-promise breaker was GHWBush, and he was a one-term president largely because he broke his signature promise: "NO NEW TAXES."

The problem we have now is that Obama is running under the Democratic Party flag, although clearly he is a neocon and would be more suitable to the Republcian Party...but, of course, they would never accept him as a presidential candidate.

GOP voters may be gullible, but they do not tolerate their politicians pulling the bait-and-switch scam on them. As we saw with GHWBush, they will vote them out of office in a heartbeat if a GOP politician tries to fuck them over on his campaign promises.

Democrats---I'm sad to say, as a Party, we are doormats. That's why our politicians feel quite safe making us a bunch of promises to get elected, and then breaking them and ignoring us until the next election season rolls around. They know there are enough Democrat Doormats to get them reelected.

What's new is that noone in my lifetime has been so inconscionable as to
deliberately make empty promises he never intended on keeping his flying
carpet ride. Suckering the masses into voting for him, AND soliciting their
money like the snake oil salesman the bastard is may seem kosher to some
who think anything goes...But what did they get for all their high hopes in
the fraud he is ? They got the mirror immage of themselves believing the
end justifies the means. After 2+ years of betraying the principle that a
public office is a public trust, the people who supported his election are
still rationalizing nonsense, playing down his tragic farce, making excuses
for him where none exist. Yet the Bush agenda rolls on to further destroy
the USA through Bush's proxy server Nobama. If those who mistakenly
voted for that yutz can't stand on their own 2 feet and admit their mistake
to resolve to correct it, they're only going to repeat their mistakes again.
The USA is in deep, deep shit. That isn't going to disappear " automagicly "
when Nobama is out of sight out of mind sometime in the future. Moreover,
if people won't learn from their mistakes, then they're betraying all of us
and the USA too. Like it or not we're all in this, either together or apart.

Yeah, right...like he annointed Rick Warren, bigot extraordinaire, with the honor of giving Obama's inauguration invocation after just being elected by a large percentage of LGBT voters based on his promises to bring equality to LGBTs.

Really? Boo-Hoo baby. Maybe if he showed some back bone and restore the Constitution clamp down on Wall St. and bring jobs back from China and India or tax the crap out of the mega-corps that have out-sourced, repeal the Bush tax cuts,etc. I might give him the benefit of the doubt, but no more. Habeas Corpus isn't just a piece of paper, it is one of the foundations of our country. It has now left the building. We have now stopped being the United States of America.

Well yeah, the presidency, one has chosen to take that office, is a high-pressure position, the previous post, if I understand you correctly, you are from a Nordic country, so the terror that we are facing a citizens does not directly-at least not yet-affect you, but believe me, most folks are certainly feeling it here, and to thank that 60 some years ago, we were the ones that liberated Europe from Nazi oppression. Take care.

Actually, the US got involved in WWII rather late. Yes, it did participate as one of the allies in the liberation from Nazi oppression, but the country which had the lion's share in effecting that liberation was the Soviet Union. Basically, it was the Soviet Union which beat Hitler, with a little bit of help from the USA and quite a lot of help from the Brits.

What I look for in a leader, Vierotchka, is someone who will resist pressure and make the right decision.
Even beyond that, I don't think Barack Obama is a shrinking violet.
He was smart enough and tough enough to get to the White House against big odds. Creating smokescreens of allusions to hope certainly helps when the only thing really central to your reality is power.
To my mind he's our Neville Chamberlin, or worse...

Correct,and let's not forget that the real reason the United States got involved in the second world war, was not because of what was happening to the Jews, but because Japan threatened resources that we had easy access to before that, Roosevelt was actually quite ambivalent up until 1941, until our resource was potentially threatened at that point, Japan was pushed into war (we eliminated the raw iron resources to Japan as soon as they advanced into northern China) as a sign of our "diplomacy" towards Japan, it is also important to note, that Japan was paired to surrender without atomic bombs, or invasion before the end of the war, but that the United States wanted something to demonstrate to Russia concerning our expansionist intentions.

Very well and succinctly put. Mind you, far be it from me to minimize or denigrate in any manner the courage and frequent heroism shown by the overwhelming majority of the American soldiers who fought in Europe in WWII, many of whom had volunteered to fight the Nazis, some having lied about their age to do so. I also have the utmost respect for those Americans and others who, in the thirties, voluntarily went to Spain to fight against fascism in the Spanish Civil War. That war was a prelude to WWII, and the volunteers who fell were among Hitler's first war victims before the onset of WWII.

Not one single person posting on Current is capable of doing a fraction of what Obama has achieved, but they are for the most part very willing to judge and criticize. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most of us are dead wrong some or even most of the time, you and I included. I will say this, though, and I've said it before - during the campaign, as I recall it, Obama repeatedly said "yes WE can!" and not "yes I can!", yet the majority of the "we" has not lifted a finger to participate actively in effecting the many changes most of us have projected on Obama to effect single-handedly and overnight. The Superman culture wanted a Superhero, forgetting that Superheroes/Saviours are simply and merely atavistic and archetypal figments of human imagination. The collective trauma of 8 years of GWB combined with the orchestrated collective trauma of 9/11 also has something to do with it, I reckon.

Hear. Hear !! You're absolutely right on that score, Vierotchka. Though
my family has paratroopers who died in the D Day invasion of Normandy
and have American flags waving over them in the church cemetary, my
family didn't raise any fools. We know the History books are full of shit.
We also know the military industrial complex in the USA welcomed all the
scientists who served Hitler with open arms under Operation Paperclip
in 1946. We know of the long and sordid History of the FBI, CIA. And
we know that Fascism is Fascism on any continent. My family on my
mom's side was from Sicily. And we know all to well how Benito Mussolini
defined Fascism, which the USA has been embroiled in since 1965.

I saw an interesting Documentary on the History International channel
this evening. One episode of their series Battlestations discussed in
detail how Hitler presumed the Soviet State would fall under Stalin.
But they held on. It was the T34 tank which the Russians produced
50,000 of that enabled them to defeat Hitler. It was remarkable that
a country, barely started in the industrial revolution, could design &
engineer the fabrication of anything so well built. And even more so
that they could rival the USA with mass production. But the Russians
did. One of my favorite movies is Enemy at the Gates, where Vasily
became a hero of the Revolution by being a sniper in defense of
his country. As a highly educated- and humble American- I realize
first last and always there's a big essential difference between the
concept of patriotism, and nationalism(aka nazisim). I like Russians.

Imho, you're giving Nobama too much credit he doesn't deserve. It wasn't
smartness or toughness that got him elected in the least. What it was (that
not many people are savvy enough or willing enough to admit) is that he
had the Chicago political machine going for him. That he had the Democratic
party & big labor going for him. ( I'm a teamster, I should know ). That the
Corporation Party furnished him with at least as much money as they did
McLame & Saracuda to hedge their bets. That Nobama's phony message
of change enabled him to use the internet to constantly solicit money from
voters he had no intention of representing, which financialy put him over
the top. That behind the scenes, it was NWO X president Bush who secretly
chose Nobama to succeed him, despite all appearances to the contrary...
He's made no secret he intends to spend $2 Billion in Corporation Party
grease they sucked out of the USA's people to fund his re erection in 2012.
10 Senators took Bribes in the Millions to agree to pass his big insurance
" reform " bill. I signed a petition to have Congress defund it to avert ruination.

Which is why Nobama is more loyal to George Bush Jr's agenda than he is
to his phony campaign promises. EVERYTHING Bush was doing, Nobama
is continuing, without exception. Nobama's foolishly still trying to push Bush's
2005 National ID Act, despite overwhelming opposition from all 50 States
and their citizens. We do not want to immitate Adolph Hitler's pattern of
consolidating the tactics he used in his stranglehold over the German people
here in the USA, because we look up to a grandfather who supported Hitler
and tried to overthrow FDR in a coup, even giving aid to the Nazi's after WW2
was declared. Nobama has no conscience. He got himself erected because
he's an ambitiously greedy person who figured he could feather his nest
by telling the susceptible anything they wanted to hear. We know what the
term " duplicity " means. I apologize if my being plain spoken offends you.

Well expressed. I voted your comment up. Like a well crafted mirror,
your words reflect what has been going on for the past 2 years. My
college major was Psychology. I understand all to well what the social
psyche principle of " cognitive dissonance " is all about. Some simply
have no inhibition to allowing their emotional affect to influence their
view. It's sad that weakness is what humans use to justify being human.
Being human involves a sense of humanity, not being duped.

And that makes it more palatable?

I had forgotten about Russia's role in liberating France, England, and North Africa. Your comment also ignores the war in the Orient. What role did the Soviet Union play in dealing defeat to Japan?

very informative, and very correct, hats off to you sir, right now you've got me singing-I'm sticking with the union!- I'll never forget and tell others all the good things that unions have done, unions-pro-worker, pro-family, pro-American!

ITA! ^+'d.

You are 100% correct about Obama not being a wimp. In fact, no politician who reaches the level of Congerss or the presidency is a wimp. They must have balls the size of oranges, be ruthless and determined, and be an absolute brilliant strategest. Otherwise, they would never have made it to that level of politics.

I also agree about the Chamberlain comparison---I hadn't thought about that before, but I ahve to admit, you are right on that one, too.

England didn't need liberating, it was not occupied. Neither North Africa nor Japan are or fought in Europe. With regard to North Africa, you're referring to relatively minor battles.

In England's case, you are correct "liberating"is too strong a term. As it was American air power that turned back German air power over England what term would you use besides "liberating?" Your post about WW2 was, among other things, that the US played a minor role. Although you did not say it at the time, were you only referring to Europe? The US role in freeing countries under Japanese dominance is documented and started before US involvement in Europe. How did Stalin help those countries?

You're right in a general way for faulting Americans for being passive observers far too often in political struggles. There are lots of reasons for that, and not all good ones, but the point is they are not being passive now. They are demonstrating in the dead cold of Wisconsin every day and Mr. Obama is silent, and not there. He's been too busy being chummy with the Bush family. (Cheap shot there, I'm afraid, but not untrue.)
I think the American people have been profoundly engaged since the crimes of Bush Administration became day-to-day realities. That's how Barack Obama got elected.
(And as you probably know, I myself am politically active, and don't passively depend on others to make good on my political agendas. )

I think I understand the concern you have that a group of over-righteous self-styled "progressives" might damage what hope remains for Obama to effectuate real change and enable the incalculable evil of the right-wing military-corporatist machine to even more fully return to power.
Both your point and mine I believe, is that they haven't left power. They are sitting at the table with Obama and seem to still be leading the conversation and dictating the decisions.

I do hope you are right and I am wrong in this, but that's how it looks from my mountaintop. I look forward to sharing a cup of good chocolate with you in Geneva and looking back at this struggle, having seen the best aspirations of the people triumph for a change.

If you are referring to the Battle of Britain, there were no American planes nor pilots involved, it was before the US entered the war, and it was an entirely British operation (in which my brother Theodore participated as a fighter pilot). My post about WWII stated the fact that the US played a secondary role in Europe in WWII, and the subject was Europe in WWII. Japan was the US' war, and the British played a substantial role in Burma as a consequence of the US' war with Japan. Stalin was not a part of the US' war with Japan, the USSR being totally engrossed in WWII in Europe. You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

If I misunderstood or misread, I apologize.

"I don't like military prisons in Cuba or indefinite detention. Having said that, there are people on this planet, who so represent a clear threat they have made these kinds of things necessary."

Yes, they're called fundamentalist.

You have, officially, become a fucking shill.

You've given up everything you believe in to support the most mediocre president in recent memory.

Congratulations.

Occasionally one reads something, whether intentionally or not, God damned funny, hats off to you, that was really fucking funny!!! +^

I agree. Evangelicals/fundies are a whole lot of what is wrong with the US right now.

If these people are so heinous, then there should be no problem having public trials and complete disclosure of where they are being held, and under what conditions they are being held.

Governments who give themselves this type of power that Obama has now annointed himself with are typically headed by the likes of Ghaddafi and Sadam Hussein.

Ghaddafi and Sadam needed this kind of secrecy and working outside of the laws to coverup the torture and deaths occurring at their own "Gitmos."

It is humiliating to be a citizen of a country where the president is no better than the filth of the Bush/Cheney administration and, indeed, may be no better than some of the evil dictators we have been programmed to knee-jerk hate.

Honest people don't use dishonest means. I expected something like Gitmo from Bush/Cheney. It is absolutely heinous that we got it from Obama, too.

Who are you calling an evangelical/fundamentalist? There is nothing in Saladin's post that indicates he/she is either. I went to Saladin's page and saw nothing to indicate his religious beliefs.

I did, however, find something interesting in his bio info comment--in fact, I think he was writing about someone like you when he wrote it.

"If you had to waste your time you could probably classify me as slightly "liberal," but if your political thought is so unoriginal that you have to rely on labels and arbitrations to credit or discredit arguments, congratulations, you've lost the game...."

Most educated and reasonable people understand that, when discussing opinions, when someone has to sink to name-calling to refute another's opinion, they are simply admitting they are weak....that "you've lost the game."

What was funny about it?

irony.

Yes because your depth of understanding of me rivals your depth of understanding of politics, which is to say, not much. Because you don't know what you fucking believe does not mean other people are shills. Your opinions are all over the board. Understand government is far more complicated than you can ever imagine, and nuance does exist.

Your imagined solutions are naive, and if you think Obama represents a presidency anything like the Bush/Cheney puppet hour, you are vastly dumber than I had previously given you credit. I apologize for utterly overestimating you.

I don't think my reply was aimed at Saladin. Sorry I rang your bell, but I do believe that a lot of what is wrong with our world is due to a very large and influential group called evangelical/fundamentalist "Christians". I happen to live in the very buckle of the AOG bible belt (the Headquarters for the AOG church is in my home town) so I kind of know what I am saying. They have hijacked a certain religion and have turned it into a rather large movement that speaks only for the conservative party. They build super churches to indoctrinate a belief system that is dangerous and works entirely against what is good for the people. They tell their people that it is God's will to give 10% of their gross earnings straight to the church (don't you dare give on your own because you aren't capable of making such a decision without the guidance of the church) and more if you can only so they can cut a big check to the Conservative candidate of their choice. If I were going to resort to name-calling I could have come up with something a bit more colorful and clever than the obvious. Also, I wasn't playing a game, I never play games.

I know it's not terribly brilliant to volunteer get in the middle of fracas, but let me weigh in here at least on one small point. Neocongo, I think I can see some too-fast response here from you at least in one instance. I've read Saladin's comments for years and IMHO, he has always been clear, brave, informative and eloquent.
I don't now, nor have I ever, seen any evidence of him being "all over the map" as you claim.

I believe you. I however have.

HaHaHaHaHaHa. Don't sugar coat it, man. Tell it like it realy is. Heh.

Bush/Nobama remind me of the 2 magpies that Warner Brothers cartoons
used to depict back in the 1950s. They called them Heckle & Jeckle. What
Nobama is allowing the military to do to torture Private Manning which does
violate the Geneva Convention should be way more than enough to convince
all sensible Americans that BOTH Bush/Nobama are tyrants, and UnAmerican.

Just a little info tidbit, it is quite common for most people to associate fundamentalism with religion, the fact is religious fundamentalism is only one head of a multi-headed hydra. There's a small book by acclaimed author Stuart Sim called fundamentalist world: the new dark age of dogma, after reading this book you will thoroughly and completely understand, fundamentalism, and how it is ultimately the cause of just about anything bad going on today. It's an easy read and I strongly suggest it. Please let me know if you got this message, take care.

Absolutely correct.+^

I got your message and will read the book you mentioned. You are correct, when I hear "fundamentalist" I do tend to associate it with religion. This is my opportunity to expand on my knowledge. Thank you.

I would be happy to read what you posted and I would also be very happy to build on what we agree about. I need a healthy dose of education every now and then and will be glad to accept anything you have to teach me. Take care.

I'm well aware of how complicated government is, and I've studied enough of it to know that lots of things Americans think were great accomplishments were actually huge compromises that took many years to reach the levels they take for granted today.

That being said, I'd love for you to elaborate on how Guantanamo fucking Bay is something I should tolerate because "things are complicated."

Would the you of 5 years ago said this? Would you ever have compromised TORTURE as part of this political bid?

Do I now need to treat you like a neocon? Do I need to explain why this shit doesn't work, isn't pragmatic and is hopelessly evil, and that even some brutal military dictators as far back as Napoleon didn't do this shit?

If you can come up with sufficient mental gymnastics to explain this to me, I'd love to hear it.

Otherwise, you ARE a shill, you don't believe in anything (like the fucking party you are now obedient to) and that means you don't give a fuck about real change.

At this point, you're only lying to yourself. No one else is fooled. No one else would defend torture or indefinite detainment unless they're a moron because it's demonstrably useless.

Now here's someone who gets it! +^

Good to see you again! you crazy guy you!

good one

Awesome. I am sharing this on FB..I know a bunch of people who would love it ;)

Know where I can get this poster? seriously?

that's a classic

Ditto! my sentiments exactly if you didn't know now ya do! If you still don't know see Howard Zinn as V mentioned or ask someone who does...but you could be in the grips of denial

*whew* but you speak truth Vforvendetta - and we'll all be dead one day and all our feeble actions will mean ... ???? who knows - nobody's ever reported back ;)

Thanks, V. I very much appreciate the thought/time you put into your response. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Also, I will definitely check out Zinn's book.

You're very welcome, good luck.

All I can say is huh?

I'm really glad you posted this, V. It's not that I didn't have the idea this is how it all works, but the way you wrote this could make it easy for anyone to "get it." I also learned a few things that I didn't know before. If someone like Bush isn't in prison, something's wrong. That's the give away.This is what my husband means by there are no Dems or no Reps...it's one big party out for all the same things. As Figg said "If you didn't know, now ya do!" +^d!

V,
The Founding Fathers knew they would hang if captured. Hence John Hancock's signature so large and in the middle. Rumor is it was a FU to the king. I'm less concerned about MSNBC than FOX, maybe I am that skewed to the left, but I get a clearer picture there than from FOX.
But the majority of your piece on the corruption of our government is so right on and brilliant. Don't stop writing it. Save it and copy and paste it if you have to. Don't stop, we can't stop. Even if pitchforks are needed.

Thank you very much!!! Much love!!

Much love thank you!!!