Libyan leader's location unknown (Updated 3/21)

That general statement aside, I honestly do not know what to think in this specific case. We have a history of propping up brutal dictators and not helping the real people in the Arab world. Also, the congress should have been consulted. Our government is not very trustworthy either. I don't know what to think.

I agree with you completely. This is a worthy cause if there ever was one. What I dislike is the total lack of interest in helping these people that some Americans are showing.

Do people sleep well at night knowing we did nothing to help people who called for our help? Do you sleep well as long as you know we didn't spend any money - even while thousands die fighting this brutal dictator?

What is wrong with this country is that we are experiencing a Post-Vietnam syndrome in which we view any intervention abroad through a lens of cynicism. We are unable to view even worthy causes as worthy of our support.

I did not support the war in Iraq and I do not support a huge involvement in Afghanistan - but these people deserve for us to at least give them a no-fly zone to fight Gaddafi. They have not asked for ground troops - they have only asked us to give them an equal opportunity by knocking out Gaddafi's planes.

These are human beings fighting for their freedom - and we should remember that that is more important than anything else - including money.

Unfortunately Gaddafi violently crushed the initial peaceful protests and pushed the protesters to violence. Peaceful protest does not work under regimes as repressive as Gaddafi's.

Dude, the US does the same thing to citizens, well maybe not to their own citizens but people are people..

As the other posters are saying why Libya? You've got to raise questions at the sudden interest of western governments into foreign affairs. Let the pundits keep using the same old "ticking time bomb" straw man argument i.e: "if we don't act now then some hideous catastrophe will happen and we can't let that sit on our conscience" but its often better to step back and view the whole picture. How many times was this excuse used in the past, how many horrible dictators did we ignore when they were anhilating their citizenry for say writing agitator poetry (ask people in Chile about Pinochet, or Haiti about all of their US backed counter coups) ? Sorry but war is still business I highly doubt the intentions are at all altruistic. This isn't callousness my friend this is being critical..

The main difference is that these countries are not bombing their civilians with air strikes like Gaddafi has been doing. The use of his air force and total war against the protesters has pushed the international community into Libya.

The regimes in Yemen, Bahrain, and Ivory Coast have not gone that far.

Agreed Nephwrack.

This country is suffering from such a deep bout of Post-Vietnam syndrome that we are unable to differentiate a worthy cause from a dumb war.

I guess what really sticks in my craw in the fact that Gaddafi is using the weapons the Brits just sold him. Sharp shooters in Yemen playing turkey shoot and Saudi Arabia just sent its military into Bahrain to squelch that uprising. Ivory coast violence is definitely killing civilians.

We need jobs not more war. I am with you, if all we do is protect the civilian population. A week from now we should be done.

Who shall pay for us to be the world's policeman?

First of all, you don't think, with all the money poured into the U..S. military budget, that we don't already have the capability to execute a no fly zone? It's already been paid for with our 2 Trillion dollar military budget.

Second, it's a simple concept called reciprocity. We (the developed international community) use our unique capabilities to aid the defenseless, allowing them to create their own government organically, and in return they add what assistance they can by joining said international community. Stubborn adherence to the idea of absolute protectionism is a relic of centuries passed, and honestly has no place in the 21st century. Borders are imaginary manifestations, and are completely arbitrary in relation to anything tangible. You can't hope to solve any of the complex global problems that the entire planet faces with that narrow point of view.

The Dutch were are first supporters. France assisted us as a way to get back at the English. In terms of providing ground troops, they did so very reluctantly at that. Their biggest contribution and one that continued after the American land victory at Yorktown was naval and mostly in colonial areas in other parts of the world. In other words, France saw it as a way to strip other colonies from Britain in addition to the American Colonies. And of course you must be aware that we paid the French back by NOT participating in the French Revolution only a few years later.

Unless you have picked up a real history book after you left high school, you probably know very little about real history. This is true of us all. History classes are usually closely monitored [School Boards, State selection of textbooks etc.] so that it does not disrupt the feel good facade we are all instilled with.

Suggested Reading:

Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen. [The truth about High School history textbooks]

A people's History of the United States by Howard Zinn [What no one learned about American History but should have]

The First Salute by Barbara Tuckman [specific to the American Revolution]

No I don't think we have the money right now and while I understand the point you are making, putting our troops in harms way to solve the problems of other countries is not what our military is for.

Great shout out for Loewen's work!

This is a worthy cause if there ever was one.

Bombs away... I have ur back. Just finished my underground bunker

Wow, the value jumped 10 point... D:

Gas prices wont be good..

The Arab and Muslim world has hitherto ignored Gaddafi's fatwas and other calls, there's no reason why tit won't ignore this one too. Gaddafi is largely mistrusted and hated by the Arab world, especially due to his decadence and immorality - think "bunga bunga" - http://www.slate.com/id/2274429/

Your right. Thank you

Although I agree with your comment, Qaddafi is hardly alone among Arab leaders who are decadent and immoral.

spot on exactly how i see this. what really amazes me is how the right wingers that were duped into thinking that iraq and afghanistan were the right thing to do are against us helping in libya.

I do agree with your view. I also think that Gaddafi has total lost it and that is why his people went against him in the first place. I think his absolute power not only corrupted him absolutely but that he as personal issues that have been affecting his judgement all along.
I too am against war. Yet there is the question of what is "right" to do. If we saw one person firing at innocent people would we take them out or just let them go ahead and kill everyone?
I do think we were duped into going into Iraq. We were encouraged to do so because of the oil and to help the military industrial complex make money.
I think that the U.S. is overextended, militarily. I'm even wondering if bringing back the draft wouldn't help the American citizens pick and choose their fights. Probably not....

Iraq was a UN sanctioned operation involving more nations than this operation.

Good post.

the taliban are on a completely different continent.

Lets just assume any other terrorist organization just...appears...

There already is a strong terrorist organization there - Gaddafi and his followers.

you have a valid point there

True that.

Agreed Vierotchka, thank you for providing some perspective.

And here I was planning on joining the Marines after high school. Tomorrows enlistment day: But since most of my family does not want me getting blown up. I don't think so. Plus, It seemed like a good thing, helping people, liberation: but your right. Afghan, Iraq, now Lybia, where all about crude resources, where is helping Bahrain, or Yemen?

And I would'nt want to get my hands dirty with that black gold. Thanks for your comment, reality kicked in.

There are many ways to serve your country, your community, your neighbors. The military has its place but it is quickly becoming just an arm of imperial reach and no longer about national defense.

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“There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare.”--Sun Tzu, 'The Art of War'

Think National or Coast guard would be better?

The Coast Guard saves lives and is restricted to US Waters. It was the Coast Guard who played the most vital role during Hurricane Katrina.

If I were to do a 'military' career again, it would be in the Coast Guard.

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"So Others May Live" -- Motto of the US Coast Guard Rescue Swimmers.

I think the coast guard would be an awesome place for you to serve. I live on the coast and the coast guard plays a vital role in saving peoples lives. As a bonus they have some of the coolest and fastest boats.

Thank you, thank you!

My father makes over a quarter million a year, and im an enlisted scout. Most people fighting in today's army are not the poor scum you liberals portray us to be. Most of the 18-21 that join are doing it to specifically fight in the wars we are at today.

draft or no draft, most of the troops will be from the inner cities. when i was drafted during the lottery the wealthy only went if they wanted to, there were a lot of ways out, like college. i got out with an s-1 deferment as a seminary student.

I hope so.

i should smack u

Do you have the guts to smack that veteran?

Unless you are in the Airforce or the Navy I don't think you will be coming to Libya. No ground troops will be involved.

so you're *defending* kadaffi?

No fuck them all, I stand as a citizen and tired of the "wars" that we get in. I say we have a lot more problems on are own soil, and we have way to many things to fix in this country... I say just like history has done let them sink or swim, I say we stop the tyranny that are country does, Who asked for this ?? the people of the USA > ?? cause i didn't might be mean but i could care less about something 10k miles away. More way 2 waste $$ and land the killing blow on the middle class

Why is it the USA's responsibility to deal with this.

would you want the US to intervene if your people were being slaughtered?

Yes, because my people are the American people. I would also support it for our allies even though many of the countries we have signed military reciprocity treaties cannot defend the US.

Right.

The American people are absolutely clueless -either by ignorance or by choice– of the foreign political games the US plays with the life and limb of others.

At the first shot fired they all become red-blooded Patriots, and may even go as far as standing up from their la-z-boys and salute their Chinese-made Old Glory while they watch the remote carnage on Fox News (even those who you would think are reasonable and astute -politically-aware individuals are guilty of this fucking misguided nationalism.)
PS: What a great fucking song!

"For example, Palestine does not meet any of these criteria"....lol, is that the best u can do?...ur agenda iz quite clear!

How about the people dying and calling for us to impose a no fly zone? Saying that this is strictly about oil is the easy way to delegitimize this in the eyes of people. The easy way out of having to take responsibility as important actors in the international community - of which we are a part.

No ground are going to be involved - so what are you talking about?

How about the uprisings in Tunisia, Yemen and Bahrain? Do you see us getting involved in those? No. Why? Because the Bahrain government sells us lots of oil AND it's home to the US Navy 5th fleet. Yemen's oil production has dropped to 200,000 barrels a year and Tunisia can't even pump enough to supply it's own population. Libya on the other hand holds around 46.4 billion barrels of oil reserves, the largest in Africa, and close to 55 trillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves. As of 2010 they were pumping 1.8 million barrels a day. Now tell me this isn't about the oil.

Mark, I don't disagree with your assessment at all. Well done. Economic dependence on oil from all Western economies is inarguable. But here we see the populace across the entire region exerting an influence on the very forces that used to oppress them. They've learned that the money can swing from the establishment to the new order. Will they be subject to the same pressures in the end? Sure. But it does show fundamentally that regime change is possible in the most dire of situations. By supporting the rebels we're taking a risk equal to suppressing them. There is no firm ground for anyone right now, not even the Saudis. It's more about hearts and minds to construct a future than it has ever been before.

And fingers crossed.

Totally agree... Nothing like war to boost Presidential ratings .. And a little oil.

No, not at all. The troubles in Libya began long before the Japanese earthquake, as did the Libyian people's begging for a no-fly-zone. It took the world leaders and the UN a long time to put it all together, but none of it has anything to do with occulting the Japanese disaster.

Agreed Vierotchka. There is too much cynicism regarding this issue from people here - Post Vietnam syndrome has struck us again to the point where we are unwilling to engage in anything - even helping people who are desperately calling for our help.

yeah i agree vaguely.. i mean on one hand, if i felt the real reason we are in iraq, afghanistan, and now bombing Libya was to help the people there, i would accept the horrors of war as an unfortunate price that needs to be paid for helping humanity in the long run. but i dont feel that that is a primary, secondary, or even tertiary concern of our government, both this regime and those of the past. i cant in good conscience say that killing people for the reasons our so called government has been and is still doing it for is a fair trade off, and i am really sad about the whole state of humankind

Gaddafi's usual mendacious propaganda.

This was a pilot who had defected to the resistance with his plane - it was mistakenly shot down by the resistance according to one account, and another account related that it was shot down by Gaddafi's jet fighters. Apparently the pilot was able to bail out on time.

lol

lol me too