JUAN WILLIAMS: I Get Nervous Walking Past Young Black Men

Haha. Well, according to Juan - if you're black... yes.

He's a total joke.

Is he a black person prejudiced against other black people?

Yeah. He's been working at Fox News too long and they brainwashed him into being racist like the rest of them.

...well, he said the "dressed like thugs" kind, and "late at night"
implying that good behaving people aren't milling around at night.

i'm against this because this man is on tv and he has to stop saying dumb stuff, but the actual feelings are fine-- i believe them, in certain contexts, it's true.

It all depends on the circumstances. Any race can dress like a thug, and in certain situations I may be nervous regardless of whether they are black, white, or whatever. My first thought is "those people look like thugs," but the followup "plus, they're a different race!" never occurs. Assuming, of course, they are actually a different race.

We are the world.....We are the children......lol

We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving...

You are too funny.

Maybe he should be banned from society. At least from the media.

i think it's cultural actually.

i doubt french black people react like this towards other french black people. but the type of black, the young thug looking, that juan talks about, that's what american kids want to do-- and they act accordingly. same with white, *usually* when you look like a thug or a skin head, or a biker or redneck bully, you act like one and people might be afraid of you. generational hispanics could fall into this if they've been american and they weren't around thug hispanics.

but at the root of the culture, hispanics are respectful, even the gangbangers know you shouldn't hurt kids, or disrespect the elderly and believe in family so they wouldn't want to hurt one. that's caveatted of course with the fact that if any of those things get in the way of their money or a crime or something, then they become second priority.

white people too, culturally, the baddies are obvious, crazy looks crazy, so white people don't generally walk around uneasy amongst themselves.

black people as a culture, the teens dress like thugs, the thugs dress like convicts, and they have black on black violence for their shoes or because you insulted their mama. there's very little way to tell the "good" ones apart from the bad ones because the cultural bench marks of what it means to be "black" in america all look like criminal activities or accessories (nice cars, nice clothes [like you're a drug dealer] or being a pimp)

so i understand what juan williams is saying, and ultimately it depends on context. if you're in a small Dakota town and a group of black kids (don't know why there would be such a thing) is walking down the street-- they're fine. if you're in NYC or DC and a group of baggy pant black kids with tattoos are walking towards you-- better safe than sorry, it's better to be racist than dead.

Your entire statement is nescient in nature. Particularly, this statement…

“black people as a culture, the teens dress like thugs, the thugs dress like convicts, and they have black on black violence for their shoes or because you insulted their mama. there's very little way to tell the "good" ones apart from the bad ones because the cultural bench marks of what it means to be "black" in america all look like criminal activities or accessories (nice cars, nice clothes [like you're a drug dealer] or being a pimp)”

Followed by this gem…

“…it's better to be racist than dead.”

First off, your statement makes it abundantly clear that you not only know nothing about black culture but you also know nothing about black youth or wayward youth in general. Black teens do not hold a monopoly on dressing like so called thugs. Many young people of every race have adopted this form of dress. Dressing like a thug is not endemic to black culture. That is an outright unsubstantiated stereotype. In fact, most black youth do NOT dress like a “thug.” Apparently, you took mischaracterizations of black youth in the media from the 80s and 90s as the truth.

Next, there are no “cultural benchmarks” for blackness. Where on earth did you get that? Having said that, breaking the law is not and will never be some litmus test used to determine blackness nor will acquiring material items… like you have suggested here. This suggestion would have been comical if it weren’t for the fact that you genuinely believe this tripe. It is important to note that black people are not the only individuals to purchase cars, jewelry and other material items as an expression of status. Most human beings exhibit this behavior; it has nothing to do with affirming if you are a member of a particular race.

Furthermore, your statement is indicative of what I refer to as a liberal racist. Of course these types of individuals are staunch supporters of equal rights and are against racism in theory but still hold on to a misguided bigoted worldview. Case in point, according to you it is better to be racist then dead. This is perhaps the most asinine statement in this thread. It’s better to be cautious yes but racist no. There is a difference between the two. Automatically assuming groups of black youth are going to harm you in anyway while walking down the street is ridiculous. More often than not they are not thinking about you or anyone else on the street. They are too busying minding their own business.

well, first of all, i kept my post general because i was already being long winded and i didn't want to add more sentences if i could avoid it... but if you'll allow me i'll be more specific now.

there ARE benchmarks of being a race. are you a minority? maybe asians don't have "real asian" and "american asian" but almost every other race does. have you never heard of "coconuts" (hispanics) "oreos" (black), (hindu) indians don't call eachother names but they don't like their kids acting like western kids, their lifestyle mimics their indian home lifestyle as much as possible, after alloting for western conveniences.

those nicknames don't come from outsiders, they come from black kids who judge other black kids for "talking, or dressing, or worse- being white" why would that attitude exist if there wasn't a "being black?"

it's obviously not a goal of theirs to be thugs, but they value (what average society considers) thug behavior above all, if it gives them credibility. i've been part of stories, i've been part of acts of stealing, if you can; i've witnessed intimidating white people just cus, conversation about how easy their jail time was-- within that demographic, never have they bragged about grades. which rapper has tons of studying, or chores performed, community service in their songs? ever seen a rap video set in a soup kitchen? they want to brag about what ganstas they are, i'll give you a rap lyric i can think of verbatum: "Put me in the hood and i can still work a brick, put me in the club i can still work a bitch." and if you know anything about rap music-- that's a tame line professing the rappers greatness in the streets.

i know black people, much like juan williams, or comedians (like patrice o'neal, who said, if you see a scary looking black people, cross the street [in fact, i think he's where i got the "better be racist than dead" line] because when he sees a bunch of bald white people he crosses the street, he doesn't think "oh look, they just got out of their chemo meeting) who advocate: "not fuckin with" what is considered thuggish black people.

you have no idea what i know about black people, you don't know if i'm NOT a black person. i didn't say black kids had the monopoly, i used the word culture-- leaving it open to any race, i'm quite aware that millions of every other race are part of the culture-- and what do those in the culture LOVE to call themselves? what do they consider a badge of honor if they are called it, or they're allowed to say it? NIGGA, so don't tell me the culture isn't about "being black"

i'd be willing to bet that most black youth DO dress like "thug" depending on what your definition is; my assumption that "thug" is very generic to people like juan williams, i went with that definition. there's a real difference between actual thug and just hip hop style, but what america considers thug is a pretty big spectrum of the fashion.

chris rock had (at least) a ten minute bit, in his "made him a household name" Bigger & Blacker, about how blacks don't respect school: "hey i just got my diploma!" "so? what you think you so fuckin smart?" "hey, i just got out of jail" "OH SHIT!" (i paraphrased, and totally butchered it)
Dave Chappelle has a lot of the same comedy, bits in his standup, Mad Real World, amongst dozens of other skits on his show.
other lesser known black comedians have bits on one thing:

black people love to break the law

again, i was trying to keep it short, and generalizing, i said the culture is all about having cars and jewelry, etc. i never said ONLY black people have that-- Italians started it and blacks took it from them in the 60's, that's a fact.

bigoted is to think other races are inherently less than you, or inherently stupid/evil/whatever. i didn't say that, i referred to "good" ones, leaving me at least the smallest of support to the idea that not all black people are like "that." again, now i'll elaborate. i don't assume anything about people, i WILL however decide what type of person they are within five minutes. that's (at worst) prejudice, which i don't mind being. i PRE-judge, usually i'm right, sometimes i'm wrong. but i'm not bigoted, or racist. what you call liberal racism, i call white guilt. people who like to pretend that race doesn't matter-- which it does.

it's not evil to meet a black person who is wearing a too big fitted cap cocked to the side, a tank top, baggy jeans, and has too many tattoos and assume that they like hip hop music, are probably on the "rough" side, and law breakers. you could be wrong, but they sure did look the part. the "badass niggas" in the hood don't exactly walk around in sweater vests (they technically do, it's a style now, Polo Swag, but that's another discussion.) Now looking at a black person and assuming he's dumb, doesn't speak properly, is on welfare, does drugs-- those are bigoted things. but as i've said repeatedly, CONTEXT MATTERS. if you're in the middle of the ghetto, AND you don't look like them, AND they look menacing then it's ok to be scared of a group of black youths, they MIGHT get offended, but what's it matter? if you're in a nice neighborhood and they don't look like they're at all paying attention to you, then don't be scared.

i know plenty about black people. you don't know anything about me, and your defense of black people against me, considering you don't know a thing about me, sounds like a symptom of liberal racism to me.

excuse any mispellings or grammatical errors i made, and if you'd like i can elaborate on anything i may have left too vague or general for you-- i've got PLENTY to say about this subject.

This nonsensical drivel is really not worth providing another in depth response but I will provide one nonetheless.

In response to your second and third paragraph, I guess this needs to be repeated there aren’t any “benchmarks” in any race that somehow makes you a card carrying member of whatever respected race. Also, black people did not create name-calling and every race and culture of people call people names. That includes Hindu’s. I am not sure why or how you have designated them an exception nor am I sure how you concluded that black kids somehow created and started name-calling. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

“i didn't say black kids had the monopoly, i used the word culture-- leaving it open to any race, i'm quite aware that millions of every other race are part of the culture-- and what do those in the culture LOVE to call themselves? what do they consider a badge of honor if they are called it, or they're allowed to say it? NIGGA, so don't tell me the culture isn't about "being black"”

You continue to argue, erroneously, that certain behavior and characteristics are endemic to black culture; a culture that you are not familiar with outside of rap music and other media sources. The primary focus of your argument is about black people and black culture so you definitely were not talking about any other race of people except in cases where you explicating started commenting on other cultures. Furthermore, not every black person uses the word “nigger” or any variation of that term and the individuals who use this term do this because it is part of their vernacular. It has nothing to do with affirming blackness or being black. You have implied that the use of this word is somehow a symbol or confirmation of blackness and that is the purpose in the use of this word but if that were the case then all of the other races of people who use the word are trying to assert their blackness. This facet of your argument is just another gem indicative of your idiocy.

“again, i was trying to keep it short, and generalizing, i said the culture is all about having cars and jewelry, etc. i never said ONLY black people have that-- Italians started it and blacks took it from them in the 60's, that's a fact.”

I mean seriously… Italians started the art of wearing jewelry and buying expensive cars? Really? And then magically… black people stole the act of purchasing items that any average person would buy. Where do you get this crap? Also, you might want to improve your reading comprehension or better yet reading skills. You argued and are still arguing that buying gaudy luxury items is endemic to black culture. I pointed out the erroneous nature of that assertion. I did not make the claim that you said only black people exhibit this behavior. I simply pointed out that this behavior could be seen in any race and culture of people.

Next, I find it quite sidesplitting that you provide the work or two black comics and the lyrics of rappers to support your absurd and unsubstantiated view of black culture. Evidently, this is the closest and most intimate connection you have to black culture. Constructing an argument about an entire culture of people based on the work of comedians and rappers is not only pathetic; it indicates that you lack critical thinking skills and just plain commonsense. At what point have black comedians and rappers become the archetype of the standard black person and representative of black culture? I missed the memo.

I suggest you change your station from BET, stop listening to gangster rap and stop watching every stand-up special from black comedians. Clearly, you are easily influenced by stories from people… stories that are more often than not contrived and not in the least representative of an entire race of people.

Finally, you are just another racist… different from the standard racist in the sense that you hide behind the guise of liberalism.

"...but i will provide one nonetheless" why bother? if it's such useless drivel to you, save your time and stop responding-- you don't seem to be reading what i'm saying, you're just concluding that i'm saying these things to vilify black people and you respond accordingly so answering you is now becoming tiring too.

you seriously must not be anything but white because THERE ARE benchmarks people feel need to be met to be a card-carrying member of the race. you didn't address the existence of the names i used, and i repeat, why would they exist if there wasn't such a thing as being a qualifying member of the race? hispanics get teased if they don't speak spanish or if they eat taco bell, because they aren't "really" hispanics. and why would Uncle Tom still be used if not to criticize blacks that aren't being black enough?

i didn't say black people created name calling- i said those names come from within the race, every race, has a derrogatory name for the people they deem "too white"

the exception i put on hindus was: my mother dated a Hindu for 6 years and i was raised by that man, i hung out in indian grocery stores, for most of those years i hung out with my "cousins," never did Indians insult eachother with names, but they looked down on western culture. i wanted to play outside when i got home from school, or i wanted to watch cartoons and i was made to study, or i was made to do chores-- indians value work and education-- kids are raised to be successful adults- maybe the lack of "cool" drives them to be less obsessed with "culture" but they don't want to go all the way western-- go into an indian home and you'll see how hindu they like to keep their life.

i used rap and media examples so you could relate to my ideas-- but i've been with black people. i grew up in Inglewood, Ca. I would occasionally hang out in Compton when I was in high school. I worked in retail in a urban clothing store. i met the range of what is considered "black" people who had their "ghetto pass" (their word, not mine) i hired some kid who ended up wearing skinny jeans, studded bracelets and died his hair oranges and greens-- and i'd be approached by regular customers about the "gay" or the "white boy" black kid, and how weird he was. I was best friends with a black girl in high school who "dressed white" and "talked white" she knew she was classified as this, she didn't hang out with other black girls, she didn't get invited to "black" things-- and as she got older she embraced her "white-ness."

i'm not just speaking out of my ass, if living in los angeles, and then living in chicago, and traveling to new york, and living in the south now doesn't give me enough of a sample size of what is "black" in this country (how are you judging me for trying to place ownership of "black" things, but you can say definitively what "isn't black"?) then i don't know where else i'd have to be with black people to be able talk about them, let me know where i can meet more black people, please.

i didn't say BLACK culture, i said CULTURE, that's it. and i acknowledged that millions of other races are part of the culture-- it just so happens that black kids are the face of the culture. you may be one of the few who doesn't do this, but when someone is part of the culture, they are said to be "acting black" (don't claim otherwise) by most people. even people with their own identity-- rappers, actors, they get criticized for "trying too hard" (like eminem did when he first became famous) to "be black"

i said the culture loves the word NIGGA, i didn't say all blacks do, stop putting words in my mouth. but it does have to do with being black. the majority of black america (that accepts that word) say "only black people can say it" and non-black people who say it are judged poorly, or if they're allowed to say it, they are given some sort "cool pass."

go ahead and deny what i'm saying about the n word-- call me an idiot-- you win, you're right, i have NO idea what i'm talking yet. still, you haven't told me why you know SO MUCH about black people.

yes, in this country, italian mob (and then the people who wanted to look cool, like a mafioso) started the trend of showing off your money with gaudy jewelry and big fancy cars. rich people before then spent lots of money on quality stuff, but where within confines of style. italian mafioso's where the first to dress in a style that personified "i do a certain lot in life" and then black people took it from them-- i can't quote anything in particulur, but i've heard it, verbatum, that the black drug dealers of the late 60's and 70's wanted to look like mob bosses, and then the young black people in new york who wanted to look like bosses themselves emulated the drug dealers. much like now hip hop culture emulates drug dealers, pimps, and dress in a fashion of gang bangers and convicts.

i didn't argue that it's endemic to black culture-- to HIP HOP culture-- and prove otherwise, tell me what hip hop values? tell me it ISN'T about having gaudy luxury items. there's a small sliver of rappers left who are true to rap's roots (being the CNN of the streets and) talking about what they see in their life on the streets. they are considered "old school" or "real hip hop" but the bulk, the majority, especially the biggest sellers (indicative of who gets the most listeners) were former, and talk about being drug dealers and criminals.

so maybe you need to improve your reading skills since you like to generalize what i'm saying and you like to put words in my mouth and define (through your bias) what my opinion is.

i guess you did miss the memo, go to popular "black" sites, look for yourself what the culture is about, as i've said: i used a couple of examples to show you what i was talking about. i told you where i developed my thoughts. i grew up with dozens of other races, i'm a minority myself, i don't listen to gangster rap (i hate it actually) and in turn, i hate BET. black comedians i watch however, they're funny. stop acting like race doesn't matter and as if anyone that assigns race to things is doing something wrong.

just because it's music and tv why do they not qualify as an indicator of what people are into to? those media are still businesses, they know what they're doing. they're not stubbornly putting on television that people refuse to watch, they market test, they use ratings and album sales to determine what's "cool" and the result is what you see, so don't just decide "stop wathing BET (because they're obviously wrong)"

stop using clearly, and evidently and stop claiming i've spoken for the entire race. again, you don't know me, don't know anything about me so you don't know what is clear about what i think or how i got to a conclusion.

i'm not racist, race matters yes, and i'm prejudice, but a racist i'm not, i myself am proof, my family, my friends; we're all proof that you can't lump a whole race into a certain box. however culture is different. culture is driven by the masses, and even if people don't feel part of a culture, they pretend to be like it, and in turn they end representing the culture-- so everyone in the culture ends up fitting in the box. for you to claim otherwise, especially with your lack of reasoning why (besides your white guilt that won't let you see races) is just ridiculous.

Shocking…

More inane contradictory tripe. Having skimmed through your foolishness, I suggest you improve your reading comprehension, reading skills and you should also learn to construct a cogent argument without blatant contradictions to your own thesis. Finally, you are a nescient racist waste of space. End of discussion.

Take a pause for the cause.

I have to say you've succeeded in shocking me. Was that what you were going for? A total spaz out? I knew you were white or a seriously f'd up person of color with your earlier comments on this thread, just because of the thought process you shared with all of us. I bet anyone reading the thread could point it out to you.

You also have used the n-word or I guess what you think is a plausible derivative of it--a lot--and while that may be acceptable in some quarters, I want you to know that when you do that, you provoke emotional and intellectual responses and none of 'em are positive. I'm older now, so I can show some restraint in responding to you.

I always make the mistake of expecting better from people who I think are smart and funny. But the more you've explained, the deeper the hole you've dug for yourself. I sat here with my jaw dropped. You may be scared of thugs but some of the stuff you're saying is quite scary.

OrchidBlack gave you some salient, articulate arguments and tried to use this opportunity to educate. But you went straight to your quiver to defend yourself. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em thirsty. I try to avoid making assumptions about people or a whole group of people based on what I see on tv, internet or any other media. That's a knucklehead move.

But if you're going to continue to engage in talking about race then be willing to have a positive outcome that's not necessarily on your terms. Screaming you're not a racist and getting lost in minutia (or haven't you heard? the man makes the clothes, not the clothes make the man) is not half as compelling as listening, asking questions, making thoughtful comments and truly seeking edification. That's true when talking about race or anything you want to understand.

Or maybe this is all about you and just you, "Duh, winning!" You make quite a few demands throughout your wild rants here today. I will make none of you accept as always, to ask you to reconsider your own statements and views. I like to assume that people will do better when they know better. But I will tell you, as I have been told on occasion: "You have really shown your a$$ here today."

discussion? this wasn't a discussion-- you spent your four or so comments just painting me as a racist, not answering any of the questions i presented to you. you didn't disprove anything i said, and you didn't give me any evidence that your points were any more valid.

your end of the "discussing" consisted of insulting me and practically telling me what my opinion was, so that it fit your narrative. since you haven't answered any of my other questions, i doubt you'll answer this one: where did i "blatantly contradict" myself? or did i not comprehend what i read when you wrote that?

this, at best, was an internet fight, i guess you won. you decided "to be the bigger man" and "end" it so congrats to you.

i was not "going for" anything. when i post my opinion, that's all i'm doing, giving my opinion-- what people take from it is on them and either i let it go or i respond (or defend) myself in response.

a seriously fucked up person of color? why? because i don't pretend that color doesn't matter? (can i assume from your icon and your offense to the n word that you're black?) where you never part of a community or a situation with racism? did race never come up in your life, good or bad, either way, you can't pretend that race isn't something in this world. just like sex and age, these things exist, you may not want to base opinions, decisions or actions on these factors, but they are there and you can't change them. and these factors bring with them a bias and a context which must be considered.

you imply that you're not going to insult me, well i find it insulting that because i disagree with you i MUST be a "fucked up person of color" Is Obama fucked up? Is Bob Johnson (the richest black person in america) fucked up? Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy? are they all fucked up? they don't ignore race either, they know it's a factor in the way the world works.

I never used the n word myself, it was always in the context of explaining my opinion of hip hop culture. i used it out of context in my one joke post, which is probably going to be deleted by current, where i tried to punctuage it by using "hip hop" terminology and spelling. I don't use the word and don't imply that i'm ok with it. I find the use of it, and the "we took the power from it" rationale expressed in the hip hop community as stupid as southern people using the confederate flag as a "celebration of history."

i didn't say i was scared of thugs, i said i can understand juan williams' position. and IN CONTEXT i have played it safe in my life, and would continue to do so. if you read my little history i gave to Orchid, i used to hang out in Compton, CA in high school-- and i wasn't afraid of anyone, i hung out with locals and wasn't afraid to walk around or go out after 10pm around intimidating groups of people, i knew the surroundings and i felt at home with the crowds. however, when in the Bronx at midnight, i locked my doors and made sure look like an "outsider" because that's what i was. i didn't know the area, or the type of people, i couldn't begin to assume what would be considered acceptable behavior so i played it safe. i didn't use race, i'd do the same in a "bad" hispanic neighborhood or in a rough part of chinatown. it's about culture, not race, which is what i've been saying all along.

i disagree that Orchid gave me any articulate arguments, (s)he just opposed what i said, blanketly denied my opinions and didn't give me any evidence to "educate" me that my opinion was wrong, half the time my words were misconstrued to fit their narrative of what an ignorant racist i was.

yes i defended myself, like i said, i may be prejudice, i may have my biases, but i'm not racist, you yourself agreed on a definition of racism with me, and based on that, i'm not racist. i always take someone at face value and "clothes" go into account more than race does.

my point was never to vilify black people, my whole argument is THE CLOTHES. particularly the type of the who pick certain clothes. i never assigned the clothes to black people in particular.

you too seem to be defining my argument for me because if i did anything i "asked questions and made thoughtful comments" you may not have liked the comments, but i supported them with real life examples of mine and i asked questions (which in the next paragraph you claim are part of my "wild rant")

i see no reason to reconsider my view-- my view is that RACE matters, CONTEXT matters, CULTURES breed bias, stereotypes, and feelings. are you telling me that those aren't true?

i'm showing my ass because you disagree with me? i'm not telling you you're wrong, i'm not implying anything is wrong with you, i didn't do that with Orchid either-- you two seemed to be fine doing that to me, while you try to "educate" me, but don't try and bash me on when end and call for a civil discussion on the other end.

i don't care about winning internet fights, so you can have this one: you're right, i'm a fucked up person of color, you're right, i'm racist, you're enlightened.

If I've won, what is my prize?

You talk about race a lot on Current. I think that is because, at least on some level, it matters to you. But just because you've hung out with black folks, you shouldn't presume that you know all there is to know or that you know them better then they know themselves. I say that because you don't seem to be listening to many of them here. You seem to be insisting that because of your experiences with them you know better than other blacks on how you're being perceived.

Some of us--I'll speak for myself here. I take the time to talk about it with you not because it is fun or I'm trying to extract some weird satisfaction in beating you down or just engaging in an internet war/pissing contest, or even because I know everything--but because I'm hoping to get through to you. That would benefit both you and I and maybe some of the others in the community who take the time to read what we have to say.

Constantly talking about race is exhausting. From my end, it often feels as tho you're just trying to get people to see you as a human being with the full spectrum of emotions, intellect, challenges, and concerns that anyone else has. I have a son and his life has been threatened many times by people who think that the way he dresses or wears his hair or any one of a million superficial things makes him a thug because he is black--hey, and especially at night or in the "wrong" neighborhood. So this is intensely personal for me.

On so many things you strike me as pretty smart and even witty. While I don't agree with you always, I enjoy reading much of what you have to say. I've enjoyed some of our discussions. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe you to be a person who probably tries to do the the right thing. I haven't called you a racist even though you've said some things that are bigoted. But I have to tell you, IMHO, you have a blind spot when it comes to race. And as far as me being enlightened, I'm a work in progress just like you.

I admire your patience X.......

i appreciate your more open minded, actual "response" response, as oppossed to just repeatedly telling me i was wrong--

i don't think i talk about race a lot, i talked about race here in a race oriented post. and i talk about race in immigration threads-- but most of the time i comment on political stuff or some other non-race related thread...

again, please don't complete my thoughts, or read into them-- i don't presume anything about black people, in fact i said so. i just use my experiences to explain my opinions.

if non- "im a gangsta/pimp/dope boy" rap music becomes the most purchased albums, if baggy pants are suddenly not cool, if everyone in the hood dreams of going to college, then i can be persuaded to change my opinion-- but until that fact, all of my cumulative life experiences had led me to my beliefs. i never generalized black people as a whole, in fact this started as a discussion of culture-- which someone accused me of being racist so i then started to define the culture within the black community in general.

i certainly don't think to know "better than they know themselves" i am totally willing to listen, i've repeatedly asked for reasons to believe, but no one has given me any real examples, people arguing with me have just blanketly said, "not all black people are like that" ... which i never claimed anyway.

using your son as an example-- if he weren't black do you think he'd be threatened? would people assume he was a thug if he were dressed exactly the same, but was white, or even asian? i'm willing to be the answer is no-- they might assume he's a stupid teenager, someone who wants to "be black," a hip hop fan at least-- but a criminal, a dangerous person, no... he'd probably get the benefit of doubt. that's what i'm arguing-- the hip hop culture straddles fashion and music and actions of criminals, so if you're part of it people generalize you in a negative light, AND if you're black, they don't generalize, they just decide you're most likely a thug.

that itself is also a generalization, i know most people don't see black skin, baggy pants and think criminal, i'm referring to racists/bigots or simply uneducated people that make those assumptions.

thank you for your impressions of me, i like what you said, and i feel i try to be those things. unless i was playing devil's advocate, as to more hammer in my point, i don't think i said anything bigoted, but if that's your perception, fine-- i wouldn't mind a sample, however.

again, i've tried to clarify-- i don't have a problem with black people, i was just describing the attitude towards them, i myself have been deeply immersed the hip hop culture, baggy pants, jewelry, fade and all. i don't have any complaints about it, i just started saying what i was saying to try and explain juan williams' point of view because i don't think he's simply a racist. as i gathered you didn't think he was either. i was responding to people who hear anything negative about a race and automatically cry racism. i don't think the world is black and white like that. there's more gray about the way the world works, IMO, and i was explaining that the correlation of hip hop culture + black youth = probably thug to people because they don't know the difference between a convict, the rapper who dresses like one, or the kid who dresses like the rapper.

i hope i've been able to finally come across as clear, but i doubt it.
as far as you winning, i just said that because you brought it up-- i guess your prize is the + votes you got and - votes i've gotten-- you might get a current badge for this-- yay.

Wow, just wow.

BTW, hip hop culture is not the same as African American culture. It is but one facet of it and no longer belongs wholly to urban African American culture, as you demonstrate.

Perhaps you're getting push back from blacks on the thread because of your attempts to "define culture in the black community" to black people. It smacks of arrogance and yes, bigotry.

Yeah G, I need a break.

Postlapsaria, let me say this too. You feel the way you feel esp. when it comes to your own survival. Just like Juan Williams. I think I get that.

But I find it especially exasperating to talk to you sometimes. You seem to comprehend some things but then your conclusions suck! And you're vehement about your position having gained the "knowledge" with limited observation. I think you referred to it as a sampling. I appreciate you sharing stories. That's how I relate too. But they only serve to underscore how much you lack in understanding what you may have observed.

i disagree. i don't not understand-- what about the black people i've discussed this with, they're wrong too?

again i have to ask, how is it fair for you to deem me wrong because i disagree with you, but you're right?

wow, just wow-- you're STILL adding your own spin to what i said.

when was i defining black culture TO black people? except for you, i don't know anyone elses race here, no one strikes me to be defending black people from a "i'm black" perspective. my arguing was just my general opinion, i didn't try to empart anything to the boards black people.

you say "as i demonstrate" yet you feel the need to "BTW" me? i said it's the culture-- not the race. i didn't say they were synonymous, i never claimed black people own the culture, nothing of the sort.

is Orchid black? or do you feel i was going out of my way to "define culture" to you? because you two are the only people i've had these talks with, and none of my comments served to teach you, just to let you know my opinion.

what i believe about hip hop culture and black people within it-- have worked in my life. of course there are always exceptions, but generally, i'm right.

you've yet to even give me examples, whereas i have dozens to support my validity, you haven't shown me i was wrong. you've told, but not proven. you couldn't even deny the question i asked about your son's situation with his dress (or you think i'm wrong but ignored it... why?)

I'm more frightened by skin heads than by young black men dressed like thugs.

A style of dress is just that - it doesn't always determine your behavior. However, your association with a particular group does. A skinhead is a group of people, a young black man dressed in baggy jeans and a loose t-shirt is just a young black man dressed in baggy jeans and a loose t-shirt.

I don't know what race people are either but it is not at issue when they "get it"-- that you comprehend that blacks may face discriminatory behavior for simply being black when it has nothing to do with dress or hip hop. The quote about defining black culture was yours. It came from your earlier post. I mention hip hop culture because you keep using it to support your credibility for understanding race issues. You brought up how you're "immersed in it." Hence my response acknowledging that hip hop no longer belongs wholly to urban African American culture "as you demonstrate."

But you keep sticking with the same conclusions that any bigot would. I tell you what I hear you saying and you characterize my take as spin, like I'm being disingenuous. I tell you about my son's experiences and you tell me it is probably not due to racism and that anyone else dressing like him would be treated similarly. I guess you are assuming he is a teenager wearing the hip hop uniform. It is how I know you are not a black person or a person who gets it be you white or any other color.

If you're never going to give any credence to my experiences and observations, relying on what you "know" already, then it seems obvious we're getting nowhere slowly and arduously. So good luck with that.

yes, the quote about defining the culture was from me-- but it wasn't directed "to black people" (your words)

i don't use hip hop culture to support my credibility, i mention it because this is the basis of my argument-- the CULTURE values thuggish things.

fine, what you hear isn't spin i guess, but you're hearing wrong then because i'm not generalizing anything towards black people like you imply i do.

for example, the situation with your son, you've got that complete backwards from what i said, i didn't "tell you" it's probably not due to racism. i completely implied that it IS due to racism-- that's why i said it wouldn't happen if your son was white-- was that not clear? i didn't make any assumptions about your son, i didn't say anything about what he wears, i quoted you about being threatened for the way he looks. i assumed you told me that story because it has to do with our discussion-- hip hop culture. if you put that story in there and your son doesn't wear a "hip hop uniform" his experience is irrelevant to what i'm talking about.

i don't not give credence to your experiences, i actually have been asking you for them-- you don't give mine any credence, how do you reconsile that? i welcome your reasoning for your opinion, i give you mine and you still brush them aside as i don't know anything.

obviously we're not getting anywhere, i think you're "listening" wrong to what i'm saying, maybe it's my fault, but this discussion isn't about black people-- you however keep claiming that it is, so we're just spinning our wheels. "good luck" with your "racist" brush you've used with me.

In the end, this probably has more to do with Juan Williams' disconnect from his own community. As Misti suggested this could also be more about his effort to fit in at Fox by making these kinds of statements.

This was never about hip hop culture or the clothes they wear. Why keep talking about it? There is none so blind as those who will not see. Peace out.

Juan should be nervous walking among ALL OF US because he's a liar and a sell-out. He's yet another bad example of a human that has been given the spotlight by the criminal corporate media. Why? Because he inspires HATE. There's too much hate on TV, and corporate America just can't find enough hateful content, can they?

it equals ratings.
but lets defund npr and leave journalism up to the capitalists

people by nature are prejudicial.
the criteria wich we value dictates what we apply our judgement to.
so we are not all racist unless race meets criteria by wich one can make a judgement.

personaly i know i am not racist.i mean i try.i try to see things racistly to understand.but i just dont equate race to anything in order to form valid opinions.

Me too. Well said. I agree we are all biased as part of our nature. Race is but one aspect of tribalism or in us determining, "is it like me?" (Gender is another way we relate or determine basis of trust.) But having suffered the effects of racism and a few other -isms, I feel it my duty to not inflict it on others. I think the bible uses a great turn of phrase on this: "Envy not thy oppressor and choose none of his ways."

ditto.
in time you realize you are not racist as a default position.

You don't equate race to ANYTHING?! YOU are in denial. Try this experiment: look at a picture of an unknown face and IMAGINE THE FIRST VOICE you THINK that face has. Do the same with ANY stranger's face. The results should explain themselves.

Everyone is not a racist. Everyone is xenophobic. There is a difference between the two. In evolutionary terms, we evolved to be fearful of strangers because strangers can possibly harm you; fear of strangers is natural and at times beneficial. However, hating someone outright on the basis of race is NOT an evolutionary trait.

Agreed. The truth is: the act of observation is always a biased act.

you should really seek help as you have fallen into some sort of cynicism where you think everyone thinks like you but only you have the balls to say it.

i dont hear a voice based on race.and im hardly super enlightened.

Thanks for taking the time to research and post stats. Truth is the antidote to paranoia.

no problem... Xiola, a current member here, thought me that's the best way to combat bigots and racists... =D

alright, thanks for that but it doesn't really matter being it does not negate the fact that blacks are and were the first to advertise and laugh at rape taking progress in spite of their victim and in joy of their ability to call her dad whilst it happening using modern technologies to antagonize their victims and families. Islam (roughly 7-10%) does the exact same thing but they tell everybody, not just the womans parents... Ive said this before and apparently I'll say it again, and every time I have to. Too many people here confuse facts with opinions. Those who dont like facts, simply say that its an opinion, in this case it involves race. Great you posted some facts, but missed my point, and stated yours, as if it counters mine then blame me for your confusion and call me racist. Awesome.

maybe the point is by referencing people by groupings you are denying the inherent individuality we all poses.you degrade a human being to series of functions based on race or religion.
that is the part you are missing

I differ, it's not that it's missed, rather that its fact and people don't want to acknowledge it for fear of being branded racist and Its pathetic.
I degrade no one. Would a black reader be offended, maybe, chance are he's just as confused as some of you (who could be black for all i know or care) either way,
The series of functions and their ties to a race are not circumstance, they are pre-meditated as some sort of "payback". Ignore it, deny it all you want. Do other races do it, yes.
Show me ONE, one example of a group of men who are not black, gang raping a woman and calling her home from her cell phone to brag about it. This has happened a few times now across our country, Dallas Tx, Walnut Creek Ca, and another outside Chicago, and guess what, they were all black. Oh, here ago again, now im racist ? No. Dont like, I dont like it either, but pointing it out does not make someone racist.

explain to us how me questioning your citizenship makes me racist...

BLACKS WERE FIRST TO LAUGH AT RAPE?! HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE LYRICS TO "BROWN SUGAR" BY THE ROLLING STONES?! Were the people in all those Stones concerts crying or boo-ing? You're going to ignore 500+ years of American history (let alone world history!) AND MAKE THAT STATEMENT?! It is no wonder people do not pay attention to what you say or post!

And now I know better as well. Get some help!

you are racist.im sorry.its not a personal attack.im just letting you know as you arent getting it on your own.
im not going to waste my time teaching you common sense as it isnt my job nor do you credit me with such authority.
quite simply we are all human being and as such equaly flawed thus subject to circumstances.
white destitude drug addict knocks over a liquor store just as easily as his black counterpart.
this is well covered terrain.from the results of civil rights to "trading places" with eddie murphy.

common sense man

well assuming one may not be a citizen based on features denotes you using racial criteria in basing who is a citizen

"I differ, it's not that it's missed, rather that its fact and people don't want to acknowledge it for fear of being branded racist and Its pathetic.
I degrade no one. Would a black reader be offended, maybe, chance are he's just as confused as some of you (who could be black for all i know or care) either way,
The series of functions and their ties to a race are not circumstance, they are pre-meditated as some sort of "payback". Ignore it, deny it all you want. Do other races do it, yes.
Show me ONE, one example of a group of men who are not black, gang raping a woman and calling her home from her cell phone to brag about it. This has happened a few times now across our country, Dallas Tx, Walnut Creek Ca, and another outside Chicago, and guess what, they were all black. Oh, here ago again, now im racist ? No. Dont like, I dont like it either, but pointing it out does not make someone racist."

Okay. Have you seen the young men who raped that poor girl? TWO of them out of six weren't black. You're being extremely optimistic about the "white man" and their happenings.

Have you ever heard of Ed Gein? Albert Fish? Ted Bundy? ---- WHITE. As far as I know, there aren't any stories like this about black men or women.

Your race doesn't dictate what crimes you're capable of committing, and you're being extremely ignorant. I'm white and am sickened by things white men and women do, but not because their white - because the things they've done are horrible, twisted things.

Every PERSON is capable of committing crimes and every population has done disgusting things to one another. But, it is because of WHO they are, not WHAT COLOR they are.

Oh, and would you look at that? The very next article I went to read just happened to be this one: http://current.com/news/93093077_explicit-photographs-released-of-american-soldi...

What's this?! White people killing people and taking photos of it to brag?! Couldn't be...

Well said. You are powerful.

i know what you mean now.

but at first glance it read as if you often just drop a duece in the middle of the street.

wtf is up with people who think shitting is a social event.
dont sit in the stall next to me and continue the conversation we were having outside the bathroom.wtf

haha, middle of the street, don't be silly, i could get run over.

the sidewalk is safe though.

Best comment ever

That was a good one, Thanks

Juan Williams thinks because he married a white female, the pigmentation has rubbed off on him. He has to make ignorant statements to get paid by fake fox and feel accepted by his klan mentality peers,Beck, Hannity,Orally etc.Ignore this ignoramus!!

You contributers are on the ball,you make me laugh and think.Not to change the subject but it was just announced on TV, Liz Taylor has died.

I hadn't thought of Garofalo and Wise as race baiting. Interesting that you do. Is it because they want to talk about race? If so, I think that's a shallow use of the term. I don't think either of them want to talk about it to bring harm to anyone. Rather, the contrary.

I thought the definition of race baiting was closer to:

"...any form of speech, actions, or other forms of communication, to anger, intimidate or incite a person or race of people, to behave in ways that are inimical, and often harmful, to their personal or group interests..."
Wikipedia

Similarly, the term racism or racist has more to do with the use of race + power to discriminate rather than 'just' racial bias.

They use race as a "divide and conquer" weapon and people take the bait, because just like Obama said, "race is like catnip to the mainstream media."

In my view, these people are either political opportunists selling books, media appearances ect and using race to create some media hype, or they are just paid provacatuers and propagandists.

i agree with your last line there (i agree with all of it but this comment is about your last sentence)

unless you can use your race to hold others down, or use someone else's race to your benefit it's not racism-- it's just prejudice. it might even be bigoted, and i do think there's a difference there too, but only the powerful can be racists.

Then we agree at least on the definition. And that's saying something. We may not always agree on how you or I get there and that difference in perspective is borne from each of our own personal experiences/who we are. I too think that bigotry can be hurtful, but only the powerful can be truly racist. That power is expressed in the ability to hold others down or hold them back.

While I think the term racist or racism was coined in the 30's in relationship to what Jews were going through then, Kwame Ture (aka Stokely Carmichael) and H. Rap Brown used it in reference to institutionalized racism in the 60's. It seems more and more, that terms are simplified until they really aren't accurate and can come to denote something else.

One can certainly be bigoted towards their own race or kinsmen. It just seems a little mystifying when that happens because you'd expect more insight from one who has also been treated with similar prejudice. That too though, can be a facet of oppression or residue of slavery. That certainly is not exclusive to African Americans but is more likely, I speculate, to occur where people have been historically oppressed or who have been given short-shrift as a group. As women, for instance, speaking against feminism (also incidentally, a term popularized during the 60's).

I won't disagree with you that some may also be opportunists (I don't claim to know their personal motivations) but that doesn't detract for me, from what they are saying if what they're saying is true. There's a certain bravery about it, partially because they'll certainly be accused of just using the opportunity for their own gain.

I'll use a biblical reference to illustrate what I'm trying to say simply because you may know the story. I'm not sure John the Baptist had any job other than his ministry. He may have used other skills to get by economically but I don't necessarily doubt the efficacy and benefit of his message if people contributed to his welfare through donation for instance.

you just opened a can of dumbass

so gerafelo cant state the tea party is racist cuz it is just her attempt at creating division?

it could just as much be her fighting that very division by giving us a heads up on those who are actualy trying to create racial divisions.

sounds more like a personal issue with her than a viable rational

I'm gone say this....I know of a young man who served 12 1/2 years in prison and he made mention of how there were C.O.s who abused convicts and this man stood up for the rights that were granted to him through the US Constitution .You have male C.O.s who are facing child support issues in the courts and would go to work upset or there would be other issues , then there are female C.O.s who are being abused by males or lied to and would take them out on male inmates.The point is this, this man would fight for his rights in prison and inmates would stand by and watch this convict be targeted.Well the day arrived when some of those very same inmates who laughed, pointed fingers ,and gossiped about the stand up convict got their day in disciplinary hearings or beat downs by C.O.s.Even so with society, we as American people have stood by and watched injustices being acted out against people of color and did nothing, we have watched sexes such as women be denied jobs in the workforce we watched muslims suffer attacks because of the 9/11 attacks and did nothing, we watched the gays stand up cause many self righteous Americans looked down on them because of their sexual preferences, we saw the Mexicans go through it recently in regards to the new Arizona law, and did nothing.Each class of people who have been discriminated against have always had to stand up for themsleves and it shouldn't be based on what class a group of people are with or where they are from , but I tell you, all of you who have allowed race, monetary status, education, degrees, sex, culture and all to cause you to satnd by and watch others suffer injustice, so too will you face the same bully, just as the inmates in prison did.

Very eloquent and poignant.

"Not that other races dont rape and pillage, they do, but not to this level or degree"

Bullshit. Do you have any evidence that black men rape more than white men, latino men... etc? There have been many gang rapes by men who were not black. Your statement is ridiculous.

more or less is beside the point. its about yes or no.
Its fair to say "we", in a sense, I didnt mean to exclude myself from any particular race. Does any other race do this, yes, and the intent is just as sick no matter the race, it does not erase the fact that this intentional antagonistic attitude of advertising what they are doing. They are raising the bar and they know it. Latinos dont advertise, they run through bu the more that can get on FB while in prison the better for them.