Border Security First! Now That Would be a Dream We Could All Support

some of your idea's ive advocated myself, some of them suck. but before we do any kind of reform we need to build the wall

you need to listen to Pink floyd's The Wall and understand why your insistance on building one is so distirbing.

Really? build a wall? What is this... china?

The wall is the most ridiculous idea out there. Not only does it waste productivity and TONS of money that could be spent elsewhere, the symbolism is even worse.

Besides, what makes you think that a wall is going to somehow keep illegals out?

We are going to waste a bunch of money on something that they can just work around?

Further what problem does it solve? It doesn't.

That's your idea and why I think it sucks. Which ones of my ideas suck?

Oh yeah, they don't suck because they'll actually work.

hey it kept out unsavory types in china and currently keeps unsavory's out of israel. so why not here as well? actually it could be a big boost to the economy as a tourist draw if done right with a good promotion. as a symbol? built correctly it could also withstand the test of time and 3000 years from now become the 9th wonder of the world! sucking is subjective really, but certainly a great way to finish off an evening, especially if one is on the receiving end!

.... and I appreciate your sucking.

The reason why not, here, is because there are far better uses of the resources which will result in CURING the problem (economic repression and drug cartels in Mexico) in the first place rather than just treating the symptoms (illegal immigration).

Economic boosts come from productivity increases and wealth generation. It's not "good for the economy" to spend on wasteful things like walls and wars and to a lesser extent, tourist attractions (which only draw economic value to a certain area from somewhere else). it boosts GDP but doesn't improve standard of living... which is the whole point.

You still haven't mentioned why any of my ideas that suck... then again, that would take effort and an economics degree.

well we can agree to disagree but my thought as well as many others feel stemming the flow is necessary before fixing the problem of those already here illegally. i have no problem with those who are here that either are, or wish to be productive members of our society and follow our rule of law. being here illegally already challenges that notion. there is an element of those here that are a burden on our economic system although not having an economics degree i couldnt tell you how big that burden is. folks will disagree on that number anyway. i have always supported some type of guest worker program that keeps everyone welcome, working, documented and legal. but again we just cant allow folks to continue streaming over the border illegally and unaccounted for. your ideas i feel suck? well most of your ideas i actually like. i am not big on drug legalization, being a former drug abuser i am a bit sensitive to the devastation drugs can do to ones soul. not sure what you mean by reducing income disparity but if it means wealth redistribution i dont think i would support that. please explain. free trade can be good as long as it doesnt send more jobs down south and keeps produce flowing north. i would prefer that the trade were done in a walmart parking lot near the border as having poorly maintained trucks and poorly trained drivers moving about america could be dangerous. the rest of your ideas i believe i could live with although some of them may require a slight tweaking.

That was a pretty good response. I think we probably agree on this sort of thing more than we disagree based on your responses.

What I would say is that when it comes to making choices from a government perspective, one needs to make the choices that ultimately benefit the greatest amount in dollar terms with a sense of egalitarianism and recognition of the importance of equality.

The whole debate between here and mexico is a question of laws.

I don't think that having more people here is a bad thing. I think the more people we can have that we invest in, the better off we will be internationally. I don't have a problem with the people being here, I have a problem with the undocumented part.

youre free to leave anytime, but wait until after the walls been erected. try moving to bolivia i hear youre quite popular down there

I keep telling you congo I aint leaving. my people were here before yours take your wierd puritan phobic ass back where those ideas started in the first place...you know where ever your people are from before they invaded this land. with how is it you all put it? their weird third world ways and such, you know, like you and yours are always bitching about with the imigrants.

who you callin my people? this land was well invaded before my people got here. and even if they were part of the travesty of early america its time to let go, grow up, quit blaming and move forward. as far as im concerned all of us that are legal american citizens are my people. the american people. now take your sorry self segregating self centered woe is me and my poor people ass and join the rest of us. most on the right have moved way beyond the self pity, the man done me wrong racist bullshit decades ago. join us my friend, everyone who's legal and of good character is welcome

you just told me to get out ...you dont want people to join you and you most definantly have not let go of your self pitty for your people's lack of control over absolutly everything. and while we are at it I would not join you for all the gold in fort nox or tea in china or that political party you love so much.....oh ya and FUCK ..I repeat FUCK your "Legal" and good character BS thats the same shit the Nazis sold too and my forefathers where not buying then either and I sure as hell wont be now.

so youre also jewish? let go of the hatred and i repeat, its much healthier to let go, forgive, adapt and move forward. otherwise i'd still be looking for egypt and germany to pay me some nice fatty reparations. hang with respectable people of good character of all races, dont limit yourself by self segregating. self pity and blaming others for your current situation, it isnt pretty. eventually one has to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions and where they go in life. this is america where even a black man can be president, although the wrong black man. peace

dont know what your leftylib rant has to do with securing the border but as far as the environment, enough rain, stable ecosystem goes, you might want to pray to god on those topics as he has ultimate control over the natural cycles of the earth and the environment. as man we can do our best to be good stewards for the rest of it. after good sex and an episode of hollywood insider that is.

#10 The “18th Street Gang” is certainly giving MS-13 a run for their money. It is believed that the 18th Street Gang has thousands of members in the city of Los Angeles alone. In fact, the gang has become so notorious that there are even rumors that some police officers in Los Angeles simply will not venture into the areas most heavily controlled by the 18th Street gang.
The following is what Wikipedia says about the 18th Street Gang….
A US Justice Department report from 2009 estimates that the 18th Street gang has a membership of some 30,000 to 50,000 with 80% of them being illegal aliens from Mexico and Central America and is active in 44 cities in 20 states. Its main source of income is street-level distribution of cocaine and marijuana and, to a lesser extent, heroin and methamphetamine. Gang members also commit assault, auto theft, carjacking, drive-by shootings, extortion, homicide, identification fraud, and robbery.
#11 The “drug war” in northern Mexico is one gigantic bloodbath. The Mexican government says that as many as 28,000 people have been slaughtered by the drug cartels since 2007. A very significant percentage of those deaths have happened in areas right along the U.S. border, and yet our federal government still sees no reason to get serious about border security.
#12 It is an open secret that Mexican drug cartels are openly conducting military operations inside the United States. The handful of border patrol agents that we have guarding the border are massively outgunned and outmanned.
One agent who patrols the border and who asked to remain anonymous told Fox News the following….
“To say that this area is out of control is an understatement.”
A different federal agent put it this way in an email to Fox News….
“Every night we’re getting beaten like a pinata at a birthday party by drug, alien smugglers.”
#13 Federal border officials say that Mexican drug cartels have not only set up shop on U.S. soil, but they are actually maintaining lookout bases in strategic locations in the hills of southern Arizona. If you go to Arizona today, there are actually signs that have been put up by the federal government warning American citizens not to venture into certain wilderness routes that are used by Mexican drug cartels to bring in drugs.
#14 The drug war being waged on both sides of the border is so violent that it is almost unimaginable. For example, one very prominent Mexican assassin known as “the soupmaker” has confessed that he made approximately 300 bodies disappear by dissolving them in acid baths. But right now there is essentially nothing that is preventing the next “soupmaker” from crossing the U.S. border and moving into your neighborhood.
#15 Arizona police are being openly warned by the Mexican drug cartels that if they try to interfere with the drug traffic in their area that they will be “taken out” by drug cartel snipers.
#16 While the U.S. military endlessly hunts for “members of al-Qaeda” in the caves of Afghanistan and on the streets of Iraqi cities, a very real threat has been building just south of the border. Over the past 15 to 20 years, Hezbollah has set up operations all over Mexico, Central America and South America. Hezbollah is reportedly making a lot of money in the drug trade and in trafficking illegal aliens. Sadly, our government is largely ignoring this.
#17 Each year, it costs the states billions of dollars to incarcerate illegal immigrant criminals that should have never been allowed into the country in the first place. It is estimated that illegal aliens make up approximately 30 percent of the population in federal, state and local prisons and that the total cost of incarcerating them is more than $1.6 billion annually.
#18 The drug cartels and the gangs always seem to be a couple steps ahead of our agents along the border. Approximately 75 tunnels along the U.S. border with Mexico have been discovered by law enforcement authorities in the last four years alone.

Every city you talked about as having a dangerous Mexican problem oddly had a Mexican name. Why would anyone think that when in Los Angeles, El Paso, New Mexico and many more cities that you should not see mexicans?

This has always been a Mexican nation and thats why half the cities and even states have Mexican names.

Im not going to tackle all of these. "facts" because, well, I shouldn't have to..

1. They dont take jobs from Americans.. Most Americans dont want to do the jobs they do. http://www.laketahoenews.net/2011/03/n-nevada-farmers-struggling-to-find-workers...
http://www2.tbo.com/news/2011/apr/27/3/labor-shortage-hits-farms-as-picking-season-comes--ar-202929/

3 &4. http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/unauthorized-immigrants-pay-taxes-to...
Tax Day is an appropriate time to underscore the often-overlooked fact that unauthorized immigrants pay taxes. The unauthorized, like everyone else in the United States, pay sales taxes. They also pay property taxes—even if they rent. At least half of unauthorized immigrants pay income taxes

http://news.jornal.us/article-4671.Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-Billion-in-Taxes--Immi...
They also pay into SS and Medicare and never collect.

ETA- http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/26/133858/605

Immigrants in general, and undocumented immigrants in particular, are less likely to commit serious crime than native-born citizens, according to a report (pdf) released yesterday by the Public Policy Institute of California

Now, im not saying illegal immigration isn't a problem, it is.. But to make it sound worse than it is by fudging numbers, making up statistics, or playing on the fear of bigots is not the way to solve the problem.

thanks for the added facts fore

dont mind seeing the legal law abiding ones. its the ones fore mentioned above thats the concern

wow! its nice to see an occasional educated contributor here on current. i always wondered where all those strange foreign names came from.

most of us on the right are all for immigration reform. we just want the focus on sealing the border first

That position, right from the get-go, is exclusionary.

-Everyone- is for "immigration reform" and for "securing the border."

The issue is that no one agrees on what to do about it.

The solution is attacking those hiring illegals:

First offense: 90 day suspension
Second offense: one year suspension
Third offense: Lifetime suspension

If there are jobs illegals are needed for get them a work visa and tax them.

Years ago I bought a house in a new development. I requested it be written into the contract illegals would not be used to build my house. The request was quickly rejected. I was assured illegals would not be used. Sure!

Exactly, and actually, you struck the core of this issue.

The bottom line is that the right-wing has not intention of ever fixing illegal immigration because the illicit labor source is a lucrative business, especially for the farming industry, who often viscously mistreat them.

There will be no change so long as that remains the case.

It's always the Republicans. They're always the excuse. The reality is American will not do the farm jobs. They used to. Many left the Dust Bowl era of the plains to work the fields in California.

But don't worry. Obama wants to fix the illegal problem. He wants to make them legal. Then all of the skilled labor in the US can compete for jobs against all the new American citizens with skilled labor. Guess what it will do to wages? Do you understand what happens when supply increases when demand isn't high?

Yeah. it drives prices down.

But that's the LEAST of anyone's worries when it comes to most forms of farming. The majority of it is so unprofitable that it's subsidized by the government just to keep it functional. Some crops, like corn, are practically post-scarcity because they're so easy to produce.

hmmm, most progressives and liberals i know are for open borders. after all gotta keep that voting block strong!

No, most liberals just appreciate the role diversity has placed in shaping the American legacy. If you actually care to understand, I can explain it to you.

They're often clueless about the problems of immigration because they don't experience them firsthand. Even where I'm from, LA, the problem is too distant for it to have a measurable effect. Even if you're in a gang heavy area, it's hard to make the connection to immigration, mainly because most illegals (at least, in my experience) we encounter are damn hard-working, upstanding people who eventually do earn their citizenship.

I just got a haircut the other day from someone who moved here illegally and ended up eventually getting their citizenship. They put two kids through college who are really successful.

When someone says "immigration problem," that just does not translate in our minds, because most of the illegals we encounter are like the ones I mentioned above. So most of us, having grown up with more races than most states have even heard of, perceive immigration reform proponents as just being racists, because that's how we usually experience them.

It's not like Texas where border violence often spills over. California mainly borders Tijuana, which is a relatively nice area of Mexico. The worst that happens is the occasional kidnapping after an across the border party, which is common in all third-world countries.

Compare that to something like Arizona, and obviously their experience is very different.

So, largely, the debate is often a matter of miscommunication. Liberals and Conservatives are speaking two different languages on this issue because they don't have the same experiences, so their arguments make no sense to one another.

When an conservative says "illegal immigrant" like it's a curse word, that immediately shuts off the rational part of the liberal's brain, because you probably just insulted one of their friends, who is a good person. It's hard to not perceive it as essentially racism, especially since America has a LONG history of just such behavior on issues like this.

I'm not saying that's necessarily the right position, I think both sides have it wrong on this issue. But I hope I've made cleat why people feel the way they do.

wow sali, you almost brought a tear to my eye. thats the most heartfelt unbiased look and attempt to understand the differences that divide folks on this issue that ive ever seen you post. agreed, both sides of this issue are guilty of assumptions and hate filled spewing rhetoric aimed at those of opposing viewpoints. i cant truly speak for all those on the right, but the ones i know are open to immigration reform and have no problem accepting those who truly want to be productive members of our society and follow our rule of law. many however, including myself feel that securing the border should be first and foremost before implementing reform. peace

I'm glad you're willing to understand.

If you want to make a liberal understand your point of view, as others have done for me on this issue, you'll need to keep these issues in mind. Because it is often very personal for most people.

Glad you liked it.

Do you have a link to the FBI reports of this? All I could find were right wing hate sites like freerepubic stating these come from the FBI. No link to the actual source.. big surprise. You guys dont need no stinking facts.. as long as another rightwinger says it, its gotta be true.
Here's a link... http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-29/justice/arizona.immigration.crime_1_sen-russe...:CRIME Yet, a look at statistics from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency and the FBI indicate that both the number of illegal crossers and violent crime in general have actually decreased in the past several years.

According to FBI statistics, violent crimes reported in Arizona dropped by nearly 1,500 reported incidents between 2005 and 2008. Reported property crimes also fell, from about 287,000 reported incidents to 279,000 in the same period. These decreases are accentuated by the fact that Arizona's population grew by 600,000 between 2005 and 2008.

And another http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Why do you insist on posting bullshit? If makes you look foolish.

hmmm so your info is less biased and more accurate than mine? i dont think so. what do you have against sealing the border anyway? keep searching, its there

"so your info is less biased and more accurate than mine"

Absolutely. And once again, do you have a link to the report from the FBI stating those "facts" that you listed? Should be easy to find.... just curious why the link wasnt provided at ANY of the right wing sites that posted that nonsense.

Careful now, instead of refuting your stats someone will call you mean spirited or racist or teabagging or Republican.

Dude, you linked to Conservapedia.

Are you -kidding- me?

The site openly hosts false information to support right-wing causes.

The only interesting thing is that you're so far gone you can't even see what I'm talking about. But the merit would be best described to the simple minded with this analogy:

You're sitting in a sinking boat with one big hole and one small hole and you're saying "If only we could seal that little hole we'd be all right."

The point is, if you're that dense it's not possible to have a productive conversation about the problem with you.

do your own research pal. im busy enough doing my own

huh?

Exactly

I did my own and showed your post to be utter bullshit. If you're going to post something like "The FBI report shows"..It would be wise to provide a link.. you didn't because the link does not exist. It's bullshit. Just like all of your post.

wise huh? although through further research i found the original numbers that i posted may be askew i believe the truth lay between you and me. how about it

and these signs are posted on the american side of the border on our property. thanks for another dose of reality brakes, and good to hear from you. where you been?

Eh, Lets just say i didnt start the new year out right. My computers broken so its not very often i can get on here. Wish i could though. But i see youre keepin em busy

i can always use some intelligent and witty back up my friend. hope things go better for you. peace

I feel much safer now. Thank you.

what about cocaine?

Yup, cocaine is actually their biggest money maker. And even if you were to legalize all drugs in the united states. The cartels still have a global market they can expand to. Not to mention all the money they get from exploiting migrant workers and human smuggling.

Theres no reason to believe that legalizing marijuana would reduce crime in Mexico. They have their problems. And the biggest one is the government. I read an article today about my families home state of Michoacan. apparently most of the police force there worked for the local cartel "La Familia".

The drug cartel mentality is ingrained in Mexican culture. you can see it in all the music and tv shows. Its going to take alot more than legalizing a single substance to stop the violence over there.

Cocaine is not actually there biggest money maker, see vangaurd Marijuana wars, they use money from pot as their financing to do all the hard drugs, also thats why you dont wait too long you give them a few years to feel that burn and run out of money, then you hit hard before they adapt.

About 90 percent of the cocaine that enters the United States is trafficked through Mexico, according to the State Department's 2008 International Narcotics Control Strategy Report. Mexico's extensive cocaine trade is controlled by cartels based in border areas and along the southeast coast. Three groups--the Sinaloa Cartel, the Gulf Cartel, and the Tijuana Cartel--have waged an increasingly violent turf war over key trafficking routes and "plazas," or border crossing areas.

http://www.cfr.org/mexico/mexicos-drug-war/p13689

See vanguard Marijuana wars, pot is their biggest, cocaine is on the decline. But it is a happy little cash cow for now, but pot is the back bone of those gangs, it would not be "dangerous" to legalize and would cut a huge chunk out of their money. And you want to know how to get their government built up and crime down, you invest, as money and power come in the government must find ways to protect it to keep it. The more money there is in legitimate industries, like television, radio, shipping, manufacturing ect the more money politicians get to make the nation safe, and the more incentive they have to do so.

I'm not saying that cocaine is not a problem, I'm just saying that the biggest thing to bring money to Mexico from America is pot, including people who smuggle themselves across steal supplies and grow it in the forests of the southern United states, legalize it and its a boom industry for the US and those gangs loos billions of dollars a month.

So legalize cocaine too. The fucking war against it has not only been a complete waste of time, it's actually made things far worse than they ever could have conceivably been.

Why is it that EVERYONE accepts that prohibition created Al Capone, and that repealing it got rid of people like him, but on every other issue people simply refuse to accept this most basic reality?

Even if legalization doesn't shut down the cartels, it does shut down the -black market-, which, by extension, ends the -violence-.

And that's what this issue is really about right? Ending drug violence.

Unfortunately its not that easy, there is no "silver bullet" to solving the violence in Mexico. Even if you take away their US drug market, youre still going to have a black market for something. Most notably guns, human smuggling, kindappings for ransom etc.

Youll never even effectively take down their drug revenue due to the fact that they have a global market. I guess we could go for legalization of all drugs globally. But do you really think thats even conceivable?

Not only is it conceivable, it's incredibly easy.

I'm not saying that legalization will end the black market or end the cartels.

But what it DOES end, is the need for violence to solve disputes. It ends shootings over drug territory, it ends tens of thousands of non-violent incarcerations, it makes the business respectable.

Because the alternative is Al Capone. Tobacco and alcohol companies may be sleazy as hell, but they're not killing people on the street to edge out their competition.

its kinda funny, this issue always seems to surface as we near another presidential election cycle. go figure

No, that's because all people like you give a shit about.

In your mind, immigration reform is tantamount to an ethnic cleansing, just kick out all the undesirables and fuck anything that actually makes -sense-.

How many times do I have to tell you this John? Your motives on this issue are, and always will be, totally transparent.

You're part of a proud American tradition stretching all the way back to the Chinese Exclusion Act, also known as the "the economy sucks but I'm an asshole so I blame it on other races" movement.

Or it could be I would like to see the laws of the land respected and enforced.

Right, because you never speed or j-walk or skirt the fishing limit or do anything illegal right?

Give me a fucking break John, the law is just a code. The reason people follow codes is to enforce a certain kind of morality and order.

Tell me John, what's respectable and moral about kicking respectable people out of the country?

I have an illegal friend in the army right now, working on getting his citizenship and getting an engineering degree. Would you kick him out because he "broke the law" because his parents came to the country illegally when he was really young?

If so, why? And don't use a tautology and say to "enforce the law." Laws exist for a REASON, what REASON would you have?

I have a very good friend from England who is a citizen because he was a member of the American Air Force. I think that is totally cool, he was willing to serve our society to be a part of it. I have no problem with that. Just making everyone citizens because they are here, I do have a problem with.

The problem is that you've made a blanket judgment about them "just being here."

You have no idea what most of them are up to. In my experience, illegal aliens, and Mexicans in particular, are some of the hardest working, most generous and most moral people I've ever met.

They hardly just come here and waste resources. They're incredibly productive. More-so than most actual naturalized citizens I've known.

Growing up in LA, I met Salvadorians, Ukrainians, Armenians and even some Persians who were, at some point, staying here illegally. None of them were degenerate or wasting America's resources, because they couldn't afford to. An illegal alien from Argentina I knew got into UCLA from an incredibly poor background, that's a school that only accepts 10% of applicants.

This is not to say that's true across the board, but so much of the characterization of them being criminals or welfare leeches is fucking stupid, because those are problems that always mainly affect poor people, naturalized or not. So it becomes easy to make blanket statements about groups that are still working their way up in our often fucked up society.

And, like I said, the tradition of hating them goes all the way to back to the Chinese Exclusion Act. To the marginalization of the Irish on Ellis Island.

Isn't it high time we got over this shit already? This has happened enough times now in our history that we should be smarter than this.

It's true they are for the most part hard working, and usually very religious. But, they are still illegal.

So. What?

Do you realize that you're still replying with a tautology?

So what if they're illegal? Smoking pot is illegal, speeding is illegal, a few years ago I couldn't drink legally. It's technically illegal to play your music too loud at a party, both because you're infringing copyright law and because you're disturbing the peace. There are dozens of other examples.

Yet we all do these things (or at least some of them), and no one cares, not even cops!

The question is, why?

The answer, as I said before, is because the purpose of the law is to uphold a certain kind of morality and order. The CODE -itself- is mostly irrelevant. It's why we have judges and juries in the first place, to moderate out an absolutist system which never fits in with human circumstance.

What would you rather have, order and morality without law, or law without order and morality?

I won't hold my breath on that one.

good idea, in the mean time build the damn fence

aka diversionary double-speak... commonly called bullshit.