AFL-CIO's Trumka Calls for Labor Movement Separate from Parties: 'I've Had a Snootful of This Shit!' | Common Dreams

True story!

When I volunteered for Dem phone banks in his first election, they were set up in the Carpenters Union Hall.

Thanks, something good is coming, I feel it in my bones.

Kenny I have a question, I was going to say I'll drink to that, but it is a little late in the day, as I usually like to start drinking no later than 10 AM, I'm staring at this fine bottle of Jamison right now, is it permissible?

Thats fine just don't drive!

Oh don't worry, I would never do any irresponsible retarded bullshit like that! the only place I go, is all over the US via the Internet! Well, thanks for the green light Capt. bottoms up!

LOL, have fun!

This isn't even on topic!

It is about a union protest I dont think it is that off topic.I was just curious about what this site "since it is almost all union supporters" thought about this particular protest.

The topic is about getting away from the DNC, if you want to bash the Unions you should probably post your own topic.

Ok fine.The guy is an idiot if he got what he wanted it would split the dems and it would guarantee the republicans win.There is nothing worse to me then when dems or republicans can accomplish anything.I would rather they fight and quit making more laws. As far as the vid I just thought it was bullshit coming from people who say they are for the weaker of society and I wanted to know if dems would defend it just because it was a union protest and I wanted to find out with out starting a whole fucking new thread.

"than"

Your operational premise is incorrect sir, there is such a thing as objective truth, either you accept that premise, or you do not, do you understand what I'm saying?

There are facts..yes, but most of what republicrats have is a very subjective philosophy and since most of what people believe is subjective maybe they should just worry about themselves and leave people the hell alone.

This is what is meant by a failed operational premise, you are saying that facts and objective truth are the same, they are not.

Having a failed operational premise, is the same as having a home built on a shoddy foundation, it doesn't matter how great or grand the house appears to be-the House being a metaphor for an idea or theory-it will eventually collapse due to a improper foundation, a failed operational premise.

To further illustrate, as you go back in time, history demonstrates many facts, but a fact is not necessarily a universal law or truth.

A fact is simply a truth that is given validity as true, because the mass of the people either believe it TO be true, I'll or have been coerced (religion being primarily responsible for this) that a given "fact" is true. Here's a simple example.

The Catholic Church forced the lie on its sheep, that the heavens were made of crystal spheres, and that the sun rotated around the Earth, this of course (objectively provable) is complete bullshit, but like just about anything involving religion, the implications of such lies are huge, I don't want to go into the whole history here, such as how many people suffered because of this delusional bullshit-including Galileo, one of the greatest thinkers of all time and a sick old man at that time- just trying to demonstrate a point, I'm not attacking you, I'm simply pointing out to you, that when I asked " there is such a thing as objective truth, either you accept that premise, or you do not, do you understand what I'm saying?" you thought that you did, but you clearly do not, you just proved it, and if you want to have a convincing argument, regardless of the subject matter, you cannot do so if you have failed operational premises, it's that simple.

So, to recap, facts and objective truth are not necessarily the same, although sometimes they can be. I'm sure you've heard the old philosophical question, that if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, How do we know it makes a sound? Well, I'm sure that perhaps at one time in history, many glasses of meed and grog were consumed in the vain attempt of trying to answer such a question, but eventually, with the aid of technology, we have both audio and video equipment which can confirm the truth that a falling tree does actually make a sound.

In the Middle Ages, if you tried to explain to a "Dr." that it was vitally important to wash your hands thoroughly with soap and water and alcohol, to sterilize them before operating on a patient, because you could potentially infect them with germs, trying to explain to them, that there are millions of little critters all over your body and hands, that are so small you can't see them, but they are they are, and can infect the patient, They would have thought you mad, then with the invention of the microscope, the truth of the existence of such germs was verified, so there is a case, of a fact that turned out to be objectively true, but it is very important not to confuse the two. I hope this was helpful.

Everything you wrote..."not necessarily","can be",'sometimes" you took a very long time to say what amounts to nothing.The tree falls thing by the way is just a zen koan... its only purpose was for meditation,it was never really supposed to have an answer. I did enjoy reading it though ...you are very well read.

Wow!

Did anybody else feel that? that huge breeze created when something flies completely over someone's head, I do not know why you do not understand what I am saying, but I suspect it's from general intellectual laziness, I notice you like to speak in broad sweeping terms, (Ah, fuckit! Democrats are corrupt! Republicans are corrupt! Every-thing's corrupt! objective truths meaningless! subjective truths meaningless! nothing matters! People should just leave other people alone! blah blah fucking blah,) in a very juvenile fashion and means of expression.

The notion that "you took a very long time to say what amounts to nothing" is a dismissive statement, the kind of statement some of my indolent students used to say many years ago, the best advice, the greatest wisdom, and the certain truths, fall on deaf ears of the indolent, it is not that what I said "... amounts to nothing" as you claim, it only amounts to nothing to YOU, you do not wish to learn, but wish to state in a overly simplistic manner that which you believe to be true, regardless if it is objectively verifiable truth or not, you very clearly demonstrate what has become of the intellectual head-space of the vast majority of Americans today. I thank you for the compliment that I'm well read, although that of course is subjective, I will say that I'm fairly well versed in a few areas, history, and analytical analysis, which took many many of my life moments to accomplish, because I had a motivation-namely not to appear foolish-that when I was speaking on a subject,it was objectively verifiable that I knew what the hell I was talking about, and not, if I may use the vernacular in the parlance of our times-pulling thoughts, opinions and ideas out of my ass, such as Sarah Palen and Michelle Bachman do with unbridled enthusiasm.

As my standard, closing, I will reiterate that I do not engage in circular arguments, I will not waste your time on anything in the future, and consequently, you will not waste my future, by wasting my time on you.Take care.

A pseudo-intellectual at their finest.Perhaps you should work on controlling your ego to some extent and not get get so involved or spend so much time trying to degrade people you dont even know.You are probably the type of person who spends a great deal of time yelling at tv sets and computer screens,while trying to turn out drones in your philosophical image. I just happen to believe that people make things much too complicated when its really not.My conclusion is that alot of the worlds problems stem from people thinking they are helping others ,when really they just want others to live with their world view.

Absolutely correct! Clear concise and accurate an Excellent post! +^

The disenfranchisement of labor began in earnest in 1980, and they only continued to weaken their position by making endless concessions to keep this company alive or that company alive, by continuously excepting the capitalist rhetoric, that if they the workers did not make the sacrifices that the company wanted, that the company would simply fold, and then they would have no job whatsoever.

So of course taking what they believed to be the lesser of two evils, they made the concessions, and concessions, and concessions, and more concessions, to the point where organized labor today is merely a shadow of its former self.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, one NEVER makes concessions to subjugationest, whether that be the schoolyard bully the corporate owned political/legal system or any other plutocrats putting forth their agenda under the guise of "democracy" and this is a substantial part of the reason why not only do we currently live in a plutocracy, that the mass of Americans erroneously believe to be a democracy, but that plutocracy is moving inexorably to its next transitional phase, fascism, which is inevitable.

I think you are wrong about forgetting labor.

Here is an empirical experiment that anyone can do to test the comparative significant importance of labor or capital in accomplishing anything.

Hypothesis: Our current (pun intended) economy emphasizes capital predominance over labor.

To test the validity of this hypothesis:

Supplies & Tools needed:
a) a lawn in need of cutting
b) a push lawnmower
c) a large denomination bill: perhaps a Benjamin. (but any amount will suffice)
d) a brick or stone

Test methodology:

Step 1: Move the lawnmower to the lawn.
Step 2: Directly adjacent to the lawn (but not in the path of the mower) place the brick or stone.
Step 3: Place the Benjamin under the brick or stone.
Step 4: Instruct the capital to mow the lawn.
Step 5: Watch the NBA playoffs. (Not too many beers so as to remain safe for finishing the experiment.)
Step 6: After the game (refraining from revealing winner here,) return to check capitals progress in cutting the lawn.
Step 7: After determining capital can not cut the lawn, use the push mower to do the labor yourself.
Step 8: Collect the Benjamin.

Also check out the "Consumer and Labor Party" slate in the thread below.

I am not giving up on labor. I believe a consumer or social union would benefit labor unions and even make them unnecessary. I think a collective voice against all forms social injust would be better than just labor issues. The reason labor unions started was social injustice by company owners and their monkeys in crime politicians.

True.+^

Now we're talking.

Note that while Corporate Capitalism's current program of wealth accumulation to the already-wealthy, which includes union-busting and exporting jobs to more traditional master/slave economies, has been underway since about when you note (1980) along with tax breaks for the wealthy while shifting the financial burden of supporting the American infrastructure, true union-busting in a militant sense got its start in the late 1890s and early 1900s. Industrialists had their hired hands (municipal police and Pinkertons) actually use weapons on strikers.

Ironically, they heyday of the American culture, the 1950s, was borne aloft by the most intensively unionized labor force America ever saw. But the greedy weren't happy with that, since their mania for wealth could not be satisfied with marginal tax rates of 90%, so they instituted an economic program that has evolved into the fascist, lawless state America has become. It worked for them: the wealthy have become almost unimaginably so - a bunch of individuals actually make more than a billion dollars per year, personally.

Let's try to put that in perspective. A well-child medical checkup runs maybe $100, and a dental exam and cleaning maybe another $100. Done twice a year, that's $400 per year per kid. If we fired just one of these billion-dollar-babies, that would free up enough resources to give preventive medical and dental care to TWO MILLION FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND CHILDREN per year. If we fired ten of these parasites, it would provide care for twenty-five million children.

But, the Capitalist argument goes, hey, that person earning a billion dollars per year is worth the money! Except...these were the very Wall Streeters who crashed the economy and initiated the foreclosure scandal, etc etc.

And, to top it off, it's the families of children who need the help that the wealthy are having their political lapdogs tap for more funds in the form of cuts to education, tuition increases, local tax increases, and so on, to keep the money flowing towards the wealthy. The point being: fascism, we are here. To say we are a democracy is wrong. It is not a democracy when the "voter" has no way of obtaining accurate information upon which to base an intelligent vote.

Trumka's right. It's all shit. The "voters" sent a message to Democrats twice now: once in 2008 when they elected a slate that should have gotten the job done, and again in 2010 when the "voter" absolutely repudiated the Democratic party. The Democrats didn't get either message (along with a surprising number of folks here on current), and the next message might well be a doozie. Can we say, "1933?"

I am not exactly certain which one of my post you were responding to, but thanks.

I have been preaching the gospel (to the displeasure of many) that America has never truly been a democracy ever, that we live in a plutocracy transitioning to fascism, I agree with everything you said, so you're preaching to the choir here, all I can say is thanks, and good to see you again.

I think we need unions in full force right now and hopefully your ideas of consumer and social unions will develop in the future. I think that was the role of the Democratic Party before it was ruined by Bill Clinton's Republican light policies.

Maybe Trumka should get ahold of the people at Consumers Union to further your ideas.

I don't believe there is a Consumer Union! There is a consumers union, but it's not a union made of consumers lol. Unions traditional don't work together that is part of the problem.

And there was nothing Republican light about Clinton's policies! Big George and Ronald Reagon combined didn't do as much damage to poor and working class as Slick Willy.

I can't agree with you about that. Tell me what Clinton did that exceeds either W or Raygun, let alone both?

The AFL-CIO is the unions group organization and there is a group that fights for consumers, called surprisingly, Consumers Union. Better do some studying friend.

I know what you're talking about, but there not doing what I propuse people do. They work only to inform they take no real action. I did not mean to upset you and I hope you don't think I am ill informed person.

I'll give you one acronym NAFTA.

Glad to see you writing. More people are in line with your thinking than you might think.

I've been mostly just reading the posts, myself. Events with OBL and Libya were so vexing that participating seemed wrong until things were a little more thought out. But this labor thing regarding Potus and the Dems could put things on a whole new plane. Or not.

China the other day warned us that toying with the idea of even a short-term default, as the Republicans in Congress are doing with the aim of sending a "message" about "government spending," had the potential for disaster. Folks familiar with John Kenneth Galbraith might recognize that the deficit is a bubble, and it is a big big bubble. By Galbraith's accounting, all bubbles burst, but the deficit bubble is to some so terrifying a perversion of the only economics they believe can exist that the bubble cannot be seen even for looking directly at it.

In fact, the same idiots who are positioned to pop the bubble are the very ones who created it in the first place in order to gain a position on the Rakeoff. Economic calamity would predictably further derange the "voter." If you've read any "Blueprint for America" stuff or stuff from PNAC, this is how they think.

I've abandoned Obama, and it seems many folks feel the same way excepting for the fear of the lunatic Right. I do know that what is going on here under Obama is a lot what, not so long ago, would have seemed like a lunatic Rightwing agenda. Economic chaos almost certain next year? Unless you are a fabulist, of course, like our Congresspersons in the aggregate. Labor abandoning the hoplessly spineless gang of small-time traitors the Dems turned out to be in the 2008-2010 term? Man, what times these are.

Very true, thanks for writing this, many people need to know this stuff. +^

I made a mistake once: I thought I made a mistake.

Sharpen your pen Gene! This is not up to your standards in the weiner roast thread. Good analysis but no alternative action other than acceptance in Blind Faith.

Perhaps we need a dialogue about the differentiation between politician vs statesman.

Yes, Republicans do not have any positive labor agenda. Thus allowing the Dems to consider labor captive voters. I'm sure the Dems back room discussion goes like this: " Who the hell else are they going to vote for? HA, HA, HA!"

Many Dems rely on Union organizing for contributions, phone banking, and canvassing. If the Unions withdraw this support, bye,bye Dems. Not a good idea for most middle of the roaders, unless one is radical enough to realize that until it gets so dam bad that the progressive solutions are seen as the only answer, then its OK.

Sometimes in a fight with a bully, you have to get hit but with the blood streaming down your face, you fight even harder, with berserker rage and you will find a bully, used to having his unearned predominance accepted without much effort, quits.

I feel that after my lifetime of political observation and participation, we are nearing a crisis point and the fight has turned from "how extensive should regulations be" to "do workers have any human rights at all including existence itself?"

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm as stumped as Trumka is. The problem is that the right is so well organized and singleminded, and the dems are such whining pansies, it seems as if we on the left are lucky to even be hanging on by the threads of our worn trousers. Again, while I share in Trumka's criticism, i also know that he doesn't stand a chance with the right. Therefore, the most he can do is harm the Dems. While clearly the Dems need to show some fucking backbone and support labor, I also recognize that they are not going to do that unless we force them to do so. Maybe that is is goal... But he also needs to be careful, because if he thinks the right is going to support labor for a single second, he's a goddamned fool.

Third parties always need to get started before the main parties feel threatened and adopt the third parties ideas.

One of my professors insisted that this is the sole purpose of a third party in our system. Once one of the major partries co-opt their ideas, they disappear.

We may get a little bloody on this one.

Good points except they are dragging the economy down more than "lightly."

Well said. ^

Very true, thanks for the input and info! };)

^
Exactly.

Third parties always need to get started before the main parties feel threatened and adopt the third parties ideas.

Yep, a repeat of 2000, in which case we're all screwed.

Just remember that only 50% of people actually vote (in a good year). If all the people who do not vote would side for a 3rd party and then actually vote, then it is possible ! Democrats and Republicans have been fighting over 15 to 25% each of the population for as long as I have been alive.

That may be the goal to split the ticket

Exactly.

2010 Election
House:
Republican 45,088,676
Democrat 39,107,430
Total Vote Count 84,196,106
Percentage of votes cast Rep 51.60%
Percentage of votes cast Dem 44.80%

Total as Percentage of US Population 27.54%

Winning as percentage of US Pop 14.21%
Losing as percentage of US Pop 12.34%
Difference between winning & losing as percentage of US pop 1.87%
Senate:
Republican 33,883,538
Democrat 37,057,491
Total Vote Count 70,941,029
Percentage of votes cast Rep 45.10%
Percentage of votes cast Dem 49.30%

Total as Percentage of US Population 23.21%

Winning as percentage of US Pop 12.12%
Losing as percentage of US Pop 11.08%
Difference between winning & losing as percentage of US pop 1.04%

Election day should be a national holiday with pay.

It needs to be a misdeanor to not vote with a $1000.00 fine. (No jail time.)

we do not need to make not voting a crime, but I do think there should be an incentive or two....
a tax break maybe?
now I sound like a Republican - sorry..... .. but there needs to be some type of motivation - why so many do not even bother is very troubling.
-- young Adult incentive ? vote all 4 years in college and get 1 course = 3 credits
anyone got some more ideas?

It certainly seems that way!

So who do we back if not Obama? I don't see anyone stepping up to take the job who I'd trust! Trumka is right! We need a labor party. Perhaps trying to change the top position in the beginning days of a movement is to difficult and unreasonable to expect but we could certainly support Reps and Senators who would support labor in Congress. Our biggest roadblock is the media and funds to support any of these candidates! Labor should invest in and purchase its own media channel! The Labor Channel has a ring to it!

Awesome, good job!

Thank you!

Thanks, and thats good news!

Hah, I love it ! I've had a snootful as well!

Now here's a person a guy like me can relate to!

You are on the wrong thread, and when sending a comment people here delete all capital letter comments anyway, as we consider them illiterate!

The USA Today is a rag. I hope you have better sources than that .

You type with the caps lock on, and you don't use punctuation. Like anyone here would ever take you serious. Go somewhere else to drool on your self. I think I just figured you out...

Is your real name Sara?

If you only came on here to slam liberals, then you might as well go back where you came from -- we've already got our resident trolls.

USA TODAY ? Uh ,.. are you kidding ?!. (rhetorical)

Maybe they hired on more people since the site IS growing lately .... Over the years , I have noticed a trend that would suggest this ... at least a few more jobs are created !

Yes, awesome the progressive people's party!

You hit the nail on the head, we don't need to win the white house; we need to win in congress and the senate. We need to win local elections and build a base and then take the white house, senate and house. We could call it a progresive march to the white house.

the other 90% party

Try to stay on topic!

Ten years of war of which eight were not put into the budget by George W. Bush. The worst, most stupid, most cowardly Pres ever.

Yes, TWO WARS OFF THE BOOKS.

Ask Paul Bremer where is the $24 billion dollars he "lost" in Iraq?

This economic mess, the Second Great depression is the result of Republican policies stretching all the way back to Nixon. I would like to "trickle down" on some Republicans.

Dang, the fumes must of gotten to me. I sprayed this post twice.

LOL! Sweet.

" I would like to "trickle down" on some Republicans."
How long is the line?
My bladder is ready to burst!

OK, PW is difficult to get rid of.