Deportation is Inhumane

La gente que no respeta el enlace entre la madre y el niño es inhumana.

Bingo

This is something that I think is very much agreeable. The same people who are pushing the anti-immigration agenda are the people who are either using illegal labor in this country and depressiong wages, or outsourcing their manufacturing.

That has always been the real solution . Food is artificially cheep here . Because they let employers slide .....

+^d

Thanks.

no prob. I think this issue is waaaay worthy of discussion,....but it has a hard time getting traction on c u r r e n t,.......its just not that sexy to leftists/libertarians,.....uhm,.....like me.

I'm a Texan leftist/libertarian who has had several decades to actually, personally,... "live out" the changes in working conditions/wages here, with what amounts to, for all practical purposes, unlimited expansion of the labor force by folks escaping a "third world" economic condition.

I and everyone else support deportation every time I buy cheap goods from Mexico or elsewhere. I need to change my consumer mentality.

Exactly.

Also, you have heard about the american jobs being outsourced to China, but how many do you hear about going south. There are many many manufacturing companies that have moved their operations to Mexico and South American nations because they can pay the workers next to nothing and reimport the products cheaper

Well said. The issue us complex, and no amount of wishful thinking can change that. I choose to object loudly when families get destroyed by policies that have no nuance; no flexibility.

I might challenge you to show me how anyone who starts a family anywhere is not being selfish, but I understand your point. I think the reason so many illegals hide in the shadows is that the INS is heavy-handed, inhumane, and hamstrung by archaic and ineffective policies. Instead of openly examining what immigrants do, where they live, and how their presence affects us all, the INS tears at exposed immigrants with all the subtlety of a German Shepherd. It is helped along by a media machine that delights in finding "villains" to highlight on the 6 o'clock news.

I do not believe a convicted criminal from another country should be allowed to enter the U.S., but I think it is illogical to deport people who have worked, paid taxes, and contributed to their communities. I am the grandson of immigrants who came here looking for work that would put food on their table. I could never think of them as criminal or selfish for wanting that.

Thanks for weighing in on this.

I agree with that virtually entirely. ( Perhaps entirely,....but I am not going to pick it apart THAT closely ; close enough.

p.s. +^d

In a very realistic sense, ANYONE who starts a family IS being selfish - it just turns into a "what the reasonable ethical man would do in like circumstances" - and then the wrangling begins.

( Usually breeders just feel "entitled" however, and take umbrage if the analysis is even suggested,.... so what can you do. )

It is wrong to blame workers for a situation that is created when businesses try to maximize profit by lowering wages, gutting unions, and moving jobs to other countries, especially when those same businesses take part in scapegoating immigrants. It has always been the modus operandi of the moneyed class to set workers against each other. It is exceedingly ignorant and sad when workers blame other workers instead of facing the real instigators: corporations.

That's your idea of documentation. I thought that might be so. Your willingness to blame other people for your own problems causes real hurt, and someday you'll understand what that means. Unless you really are ignorant.

said what needed to be said..if these people that stay here ,knowing that they are causing problems,then to hell with them,an your sad bleeding heart...

Again, I ask you, who are "these people?" People have names, families, histories, hopes, problems, and challenges. You're one of "these" people if you call yourself human. How do you tell the difference between "these" people and "those" people? How are they different from you?

If you or your family were sent out of the country, I'd work to stop that, too. It's wrong, it's inhumane, and it accomplishes nothing except make someone's life worse.

And THAT I can attest to from personal experience. +^d

It is not a "blame" of peasant labor, its just recognizing the element to be regulated.

If there is too much surplus rubber being dumped into land fills by industry,.....it is not a "blaming" of the rubber to insist it not make it onto the real-estate,....everyone damn well knows that industry/industrialists/capitalists are responsible. But you address the industrialists by not allowing the rubber to be moved in the first place.

Peasant labor is just another raw material that BIG MONEY wants to utilize cheaply, and dispose of cheaply.

Oh. Removing the "just" from the "raw material" bit I just writ. Un-cool. Humanly demeaning,....poorly phrased and not meant that way. People ARE NOT "stuff to exploit",....its a given,....DO NOT mean that.

Restatement - BECAUSE these people WILL be treated as "Stuff to exploit and be disposed of " simply because of the self interest of "BUSINESS",.....they CAN NOT be allowed to be transported, utilized, and dismissed, exactly as though they were.

The fact that "they transport themselves" is NO argument against the fact that an abusive partner should NOT be allowed to traffic in them any more than its OK to pimp out hungry kids.

Hardytoo, it does get hard to care when your hands are tied... I never thought in my own homeland that I would receive more discrimination than I grew up with... Thanks Hardytoo.... =)

Show me the documented evidence of even two Asians that you're referring to; otherwise, I have to assume you're using the same scapegoating technique used against immigrants everywhere. It is wrong to blame someone for wanting to feed his or her family and seeking a better life elsewhere. If you were industrious, instead of critical, you'd do the same thing.

It's in the newspapers here, often. I've actually been involved in birthing the babies, in Vancouver.
You can GOOGLE
"Vancouver + passport babies"
and read a Canadian Citizenship Committee (a gov't doc), one of many such documents.
http://openparliament.ca/hansards/1136/132/only/

It's an ever increasing problem, and I'm not scapegoating anybody. There are cheaters in the system who will seek-out any loophole they can.

p.s. I am industrious and very successful, working hard to feed the family too. My intolerance is directed to cheaters - wealthy cheaters.

I guessed that from the intelligent tone of your writing. Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this.

Do you really think the editor of Canadian Immigrant magazine would be an unbiased source of information on immigration in Canada?
Just saying we need more immigrants to fill a void in young workers who are needed to support an aging population doesn't solve the problem. Which is, multiple working people are needed to support one retired worker in our present system.

Good point, trut.

I appreciate and totally respect your intelligent thoughts and arguments on this issue. I cannot fathom having to leave my country because of poverty, hunger and zero opportunity. Immigration has built my country and in some ways, still does. I completely recognize and respect the work-ethic and brilliance of most immigrants to Canada; we have a large number of cutting edge researchers (e.g. many of whom came here when Bush43 cut the funding for stem-cell research). Most have come here to build businesses and raise their families in peace and prosperity. They are to be embraced and welcomed – and they played by the immigration rules. The point I was making was about the people who slip in here, grab citizenship, then leave (neglecting to pay what it costs). It’s a growing problem, especially in our major cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal).

I think we’re closer in our thinking on the issue of immigration than this one argument would show – legal immigration is the foundation of our country’s prosperity. (On a personal note, my own family emigrated from the U.S. to Canada, and originally, Europe, to homestead and happily join the “peasant class.” My great-great-grandfather was the wheat farmer who donated his land in order to build the City of Loveland, CO. In all likelihood, he didn’t have a choice so he chose the only and “best” choice.) Immigration has and will continue to form this Nation. The U.S. is called the “melting pot” but Canada is a “multi-cultural” society, where we continue to recognize, encourage and celebrate the differences. Vive la difference!

Our only disagreement is one of the cheats with huge economic advantage, not earned, not taxed and only an advantage to their monied class. The “passport baby” issue is a still small one (estimated at 300 babes/year in the one hospital I’m familiar with in Vancouver – same applies to the other large hospitals in Eastern Canada), but it is a trend not to be ignored. (One Syrian General sent his wife to Canada, specifically to give birth – for the passport, because he had the money to do so. They were found out and sent home, with little fanfare or press.) (I’ll let you “Google” that one.)

The discussion continues in Canada, quietly because of the money. ("Canada Immigration" magazine is biased source.) (The citation I gave you may seem a little out of date (1994) but it represents the beginnings of recognition of the issue here (“Hansard” is the official record of our Parliament)). There are other position papers (search “passport babies” + Canada). I completely agree that deportation is not the answer; perhaps a “path to citizenship” is the answer, I don’t know. One solution in the situation to which I refer is to tax these couples' overseas income.

The TRUE immigration issue is regarding poverty, mostly due to government mismanagement of resources and lack of population control education and war. Yet education remains the problem due to religious issues. I hurt for my fellow-human beings and personally rage that this issue even exists. We are ALL immigrants.
At any rate, I don’t think we need to trade citations because for the most part, we agree. I thank you for your great comments and very thoughtful arguments.

(and p.s. again, I cannot give you names because THAT would seal my fate – and I don’t like the taste of cat food.) Thanks for the very thoughtful discussion.

Thank you, too. We certainly do agree on many of the facets of this issue, Good luck to you.

There are also scores of fly-by-night "agencies" who prey upon immigrants, promising jobs and money that never materialize.

My employer is one of them... I have changed careers three times as an adult, and the reason is that these folks are willing to 1) Work for less money 2) Do not ask for a raise 3) Will never ask for health insurance as a way to keep them off the radar...

Have you ever had to take a job for less money because the counterpart was willing to work for less??? Have you ever been denied a job because you were not bilingual and still had all the experience the employer was looking for??? Don't give me the sad story about peoples feelings, cos I could Honestly care less... I live by the laws of this country, so should all that live here....

I'm sorry for your pain.

It is not known by those who have never felt it... Thanks... =)

Both.

Both what trut??? Nevermind, I know just what you are saying...

KB, having lived a good portion of my life in urban areas, I have had the same experiences. I have applied for positions that I have had years of experience in only to be asked if I spoke Spanish, at which point it was evident that I would not be getting that job. I've worked in a customer service position, that included sales, where the majority of customer flow was Hispanic and would ask for and wait for the Spanish speaking reps. Needless to say, when layoffs came around, I was on the chopping block i suppose because my upsell numbers were not on par with others in the office. I know about how you feel. I was as angry back then as well. Today, I am not so angry but hopeful that more will be able to see how we are being pitted against each other. These people want to survive too, and coming from the countries that they do where even earning minimum wage or below, it is way more then they could ever expected back home. No I blame those that would exploit their labor while using their existence to suppress wages here at home. We should all be offered a living wage.

The fact is we (as a country) encourage illegal immigration because we bolster countries who practice subhuman conditions by our unquestioning support of dictatorships, communistic rule, and consumption of trade products made by the very people with whom we compete for jobs that were sifted onto their shores.