It looks like the stimulus worked after all

So your one comment's purpose is to divert the conversation to a program that consumed less than 1/10th of 1% of the US budget for 1 year...

Typical.

I think you're referring to TARP - completely different.

Recovery Act funds didn't go to banks or corporations.

Only in theory. Compartmentalizing the "saving" effects of gov't spending vs. economic recovery I believe is a mistake that leads to easy manipulation. I have no problem with the stimulus mentioned here. I do have a serious problem with the idea that it fixed anything. It was like "fixing" a car with rubber bands and duct tape. The overall spending is one step forward 2 steps back with no real attention spent on fixing what got us here in the first place.

And just to be clear, Republicans using Friedmanite monetarism arguments as the 'other' choice in contrast to Keynesianism are exactly the false fighters I refer to......

You know, the stimulus is a fine idea. The only problem is that without tax reform and heavy tax rates on very high income individuals, we end up in the same place.

The balloon just leaks into the atmosphere no matter how much you fill it up.

I see many object to Keynesian economics, and they usually have one thing in common: they're Ron Paul supporters.

In their criticism of Keynes, though, they usually only refer to one page in the very large theory, which has many different guidelines and methods that vary pending on economic circumstances. For example, free trade is promoted - when it would benefit the economy without repercussion. Heavily restricted trade is also promoted - when needed in particular economic circumstances. So their criticisms of just one page of the entire theory are not very relevant.

What many critics also don't recognize is that the economic alternates they offer are either 1) not used anywhere in the last 75 years because of its proven failure (not to mention drastic effects in the central Europe area that tried that theory for almost century), or 2) mimic Marxist theories, which are now being promoted by the GOP in a corporatist/oligarchal format.

And what both of those alternates truly seek by the head honchos promoting them is nothing more than accumulation of wealth by the wealthy, and by denying any others from opportunity to acquire even middle-class status.

The stimulus was a fine idea if you wanted to support a system that put money into circulation by borrowing. When private demand destruction occurs as the result of regressive tax policy, the government accumulating more debt to off-set the lack of ability (or want) to take on more debt does make sense.

However if taxes were increased on the top 5% (which is a good idea), or even the top 0.5% in an attempt to balance the fiscal equation , the distortion that action produces in our 40 year-old monetary system would produce down-stream effects as a result of less Treasury issuance.

You have the right idea that the balloon just deflates despite your attempt pump it up, but there are more holes than you think and plugging one or two just makes the others lose air faster, or new holes develop in places you wouldn't expect them to.

The game is that rigged.

Very well said. ^'d

And I agree. While Paul and other metallic standard folks (I think) are at least aware of many of the problems that exist today, they are destined to take the fork in the road that leads them right back to the same economic injustices we're experiencing today if they wish to roll back to a gold or some other similar metal standard.

While I do believe that precious metals should be allowed to freely circulate as money, I do not believe that it suits our current economic or societal needs (unless, of course, world population reverses trend and starts contracting).

what were the tax cuts included in the Recovery Act?

If you refer to the tax cuts on households making less than $80K - those small reductions in income taxes allowed those households to increase spending when opportune, which increased sales taxes collected by states and counties.

Same goes for the tax cuts on small businesses (and I mean *small*) -

That $288 bil came out to roughly $600 per applicable household, and about $1200 per applicable small business

I think bickering and childish legislators did that, not the stimulus.

If we weren't so far in debt, the bickering and childish legislators wouldn't matter. It's not like bickering and childish legislators are a new phenomenon.

Putting on a public face of irresponsibility and immaturity never inspires confidence. Besides, the downgrading is debatable as it is only one agency with questionable sources of income.

S&P down grade was place squarely on the RIPublicans who refused to negotiate, and the Democrats that caved. The text of which stated:
"More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.
Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government’s debt dynamics any time soon".

Had the "agreement" included increased revenues, there would not have been a down grade. Also, none of the other rating agencies lowered their assessment of US sovereign debt. The US can pay its debts. Congress borrowed the money, under the 14th Amendment, they are obligated to pay it.

That I will agree with.

The irrationality and insanity of the fight is new. In years gone by the legislators fought over who's programs would get the money available from Federal funds, to better the lives of the citizens in their states. Legislators fought for road and bridge projects that gave the people in their states jobs. The thought being that if I keep the people in my state fat and happy they will reelect me. Now the fight is how to get the vast sums of money collected from the middle class into the hands of the corporations that support the politicians. I know they aren't fighting for a position that pays a mere 197,000 dollars a year. The payout must be much greater for these men to sell their souls the way they have. Think about it, JohnA, why do corporations pay out millions to put these people in the House and Senate, they aren't doing it out of a sense of pulic duty, they do it so that these people can funnel our tax dollars into their pockets. Try to see the big picture.

You're 100% correct. Those Tea party juveniles *are* bickering and childish, which only further accents their lack of knowledge on anything related to govt.

Then explain how other countries are far deeper in debt, but have never been downgraded

I don't know which countries you are talking about, but they do all have one thing in common I'm sure. They are not the United States.

France and Germany are two standouts

They are the tallest midgets in the EU, the worst idea in modern history. Who gives up control of their own currency? France is going to get downgraded anyday now, so they're out anyway. Emergency meeting in Paris just today between Merkel and Sarkozy, wonder what they're talking about?

Germany has the largest and wealthiest economy on the globe. France is 5th largest, 2nd largest in Europe.

Both also have income gaps within reasonable spectrums, too.

and I'll bet you anything you care to risk that France is NOT going to get downgraded - "anyday now" you say?

Congratulations, johna - you've made it official for us here: *you don't know squat*

The United States has the largest economy. I think Germany is fourth behind China and Japan. And it was widely reported in the business pages that an S&P downgrade of France appeared imminent. I look at the stock market everyday, I am an investor, I pay attention, I like it, it is interesting, and I've made more than I've lost. I'm not rich or anything, but I have saved money and made investments, so yes I do know squat, a little anyway.

what I'll regret most is the half of that $14 trillion that went in only 8 years under Bush, and that went to non-taxed corporations who spent it outside the US.

The latest addition to the debt, in the format of the Recovery Act, stayed HERE. Went into OUR bank accounts. To companies that PAID taxes. And to people who spent that money here, circulating it through the US, and returning it to the government.

That is a fully baseless and bullshit claim.

Go get some real evidence and we will let you come to the grown ups table to talk.

So much is placed on this site without research and believed because it benefits the left. When I'm asked for sources either no one responds afterwards or I'm personally insulted since the facts can't be refuted. 6% of the stimulus went to jobs. Look it up.

Could you please provide us with some reference to defend those claims? I know for a fact that neither ACORN nor MoveOn received any type of federal funding through the stimulus. In fact, MoveOn cannot accept *any* federal funds, and ACORN is practically non-existant (thanks to some pimply kid from FOX Noose).

So please - defend your statements with evidence, please.

Provide the link that supports your statement. The argument in this link provides its evidence; where is yours?

Did you really just say ACORN did not receive rederal funds?

It did get federal funding, just not stimulus funding, but it's funding from one basket and not the other. It didn't get stimulus funding, it just got other government funding that was replaced by funding from the stimulus. That make you feel better about yourself?

Yes - I said, and know to be true, not one cent of the Recovery Act went to ACORN.

So they got federal funding, just not stimulus federal funding. It came out of one basket to be replaced by funding out of another basket. Yes, that's much better.

why, yes! it does! especially since you join us in refuting the false claims by Wayne. Thanks so much!

ACORN did not receive one cent from the Recovery Act, unlike Wayne's statement infers.

ACORN did at one time receive federal funding for HUD projects - a total of $1.6 million (not billion) to help lower-income Americans settle in their own homes.

ACORN also engaged in unfunded voter registration projects, which FAUX news tried to insinuate was funded, but falsely so. FAUX also tried to insinuate that ACORN operated by providing aid to illiegal immigrant prostitution, which we also know is untrue.

The only negative thing anyone ever caught on ACORN was when, in its voter registration drives, it paid staff incentives to register specific numbers of folks. That was ruled illegal. Of course, FAUX tried to claim that the registrants were fraudulent, but overlooked the fact that there was nothing ACORN could ever do but turn in any voter registration form it collected, no matter how false it appeared.

If you yourself, johna, collected a voter registration form from someone who claimed his name to be Donald Duck - if you failed to remit that form to your state's election commission, then *YOU* would be guilty of crime.

Sounds to me like you're leaning towards the fraudulent claims of Wayne - and if you're going to do that, then maybe you should find another field to graze in.

Easy does it buddy, careful when you point out the obvious... If it's anything slightly against Obama and the 'righteous' left, you'll get reamed a new asshole, by bullshit O-faced lovers. ZOMG A DISAGREEMENT WITH FACTS! DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE.

I can't believe people think the stimulus actually... worked, or helped the right people.

Sucking cock doesn't qualify as a real job, so maybe these lefty's have the market confused with their mouth. Ah well. Good effort anyway.

The total amount awarded to private contractors and grantees is $78 billion.

Stimulus facts - Mercatus Center - George Mason University

You didn't respond to anything I said, damn it.

This after bitching yourself about people running off after you present facts.

It's like herding cats... UGH.

Nahh, we down vote lies and inaccurate understandings of the world around us and the nuanced realities of how the government works. If you submit a fact, expect it to get checked or criticized. If you are right, then you win.

You are just bitter because you don't win.

The saddest part is, ignorance causes us all to lose.

ACORN didn't recieve stimulus funds. ACORN was a community activist program thatencouraged people who otherwise would not have voted to vote. They provided education to low income people and afforded them the opportunity to register to vote. End of story. The fact that most low income people are black and presumed to add to the Democratic vote is what frightened the Republicans, who dishonestly portrayed this organization and strategized its downfall. Now that we know all of the allegations were lies, purposeful lies, I believe that ACORN should be reestablished and funded from the GOP. Why hasn't anyone sued the Republican party over this and called for civil reparations for the destruction of this lawful agency?

Like you saying Obama signed 65 executive orders last month?

You've been asked repeatedly to show where stimulus money went to ACORN.....Still waiting.

The bottom line is simple. The stimulus didn't work. A lot of money was wasted. The deficit is up due to the spending. The economy is horrible. Obama is in trouble.

ACORN was still in existence at the time of the stimulus. They did receive money.

I'm not confused about your assertion. I'm confused about how you came to your conclusion. Way to still not answer my question.

You are right, the GOP and all it's billions of dollars aided and abetted largely by corporate media have buffaloed a good percentage of the American public. The best counter measure is being vocal - and keep it up. Even deaf ears hear eventually.

Of couse it worked, unemployment is at 9.9% (with government adjustments). It would have been at 10% (with government adjustments) without it. A fantastic success!

Sarcasm intended.

Unemployment was projected, back in mid 2008, to escalate over 16%. This program prevented that from happening.

Projected by who and measured by who? The federal government. Here's a tip for you. They lie. A lot.

How are your sources any better?

You know, JohnA, it was the Republican agenda and the misuse of the American people for profit that got us into this mess. They didn't do that over night they did it over the course of Bush's eight years in office. It started directly after he got in to office, as his firs act was to double his pay. Now you all point at Obama and want the mess cleaned up immediately, so it looks to me like not much has changed since the times of slavery: Rich white men messes up, calls in the blacks to clean, get pissed off that it takes longer than a minute and whip the black man, calling him lazy and useless. Where did this mess come from? Greed and corruption of our government. When did it happen? During the Bush years. Stop your whining and get in on the clean up, your pocket has been and will continue to be picked by the Republicans that you continue to support. Stop blaming the victims and join in the effort to rebuild this country.

The race card, finally, what took so long. I usually get called a racist much sooner than this. I love it, it means the other side has run out of valid arguements. Good day to you.

Hello, I am white!!! I don't have a race card to play. Neener Neener. So explain this in a non racist way. What is your exact problem with the efforts of the Democratic Party to save this economy that was run down by your Republican Party. Every proposal that would make an impact to save us is run into the ground by the Republicans. Why? Can you say that they honestly are working for the good of their constituents, you know, the people who live in the states that they are supposed to be representing?

Not my Republican Party, I voted for Hillary. Tried to tell people, but no one ever listens to me so look what we have, he makes Jimmy Carter look like Harry Truman.

Mark Twain said " I don't believe anything , until it has been officially denied .." And he knew a thing or two .

LOL- very astute observation.

Good for you. That is a lesson for all of us! Thank you

Smart guy Ole' Mark.