Beating Your Kids For God - The Amazing Atheist

Spankings are sometimes very necessary. But in most cases, the humiliation more than the actual pain of a spanking is enough.

This was sadistic torture. I am still very angry that this was at the hand of two parents. One of them could not have stepped up and said, "this is a bit much" of fucking something? I'd like to vivisection both of them and tell them while I am doing it that god told me to do it and that they should pray.

I am a big fan of personal responsibility. :)

I'm with you, EdJoy. There is not enough of personal responsibility around.

NO, they thought that they were following the dictates of the Bible, as presented by the author of How to Raise Up a Child. Do not excuse this as a product of mental illness. These people regularly beat all of their children. It takes a lot of abuse to kill a human being, and I am so sick of the victimization of our children. Anyone who hurts a child should be held accountable. Please do not try to rationalize this kind of thing. Think about the child's experience during a seven hour beating and the other children who had to witness this, they have no way to rationalize and understand what was happening to them. This was torture and these parents did this on a regular to innocent children in the hope of what? Making them what? I am quite sure that neither of these adults experienced anything like this as children. I believe that they should, though. And don't give yourself false comfort that they'll be beaten daily in jail. I worked in a prison for seven years and daily fights and beatings for the criminals did not occur. These men lived comfortable, safe lives behind bars. They recieved top notch medical care for their colds and splinters and sports injuries and their penile warts and hemmorhoids. There was no justice meted out for the horrendous acts they committed. They were well fed and clothed and each one had a t.v. with cable by his cot. There will be no justice for this child and her siblings, I cannot imagine the horrors they suffered or how it will affect them in their lifetimes. I do know that while their parents enjoy all of the services provided by our prison systems, including counseling and educational opportunities, the services for victims will not be offered beyond a few weeks of counselling. The children will be thrown into our foster care system and possibly subjected to further abuse, as that system is also broken and infiltrated by some sick and uncaring people as well. We will never hear about these kids again. They are and will be the trash of the media. Yesterdays news. So don't just blow it off with a Wow, that's crazy. That's LIFE IN THE USA for so many of our children and that IS crazy and so so sad.

There is a huge difference between responsible corporal punishment and what this preacher advocates and what those parents did. For one thing using an open hand applied to the seat of the pants, will not cause permanent physical damage you will know if you go past what is appropriate through your own tactile sensation. Using a weapon such as those plumbing lines, you can inflict permanent damage, and you have no damned idea of what you are actually inflicting. There simply cannot be any excuse for beating a child for 7 hours, that behavior is simply inexcusable.

And who gets to punish you when you do wrong, or is it just the strong allowed to hit the weak to enforce their own beliefs. Maybe your child doesn't agree with your idea of what is acceptable. Maybe your child ascribes to the belief that their time on Earth is prearranged and they were meant to be hit by that car or electrocuted. Not that I would let that happen, but it bears consideration. It is an extreme example, just like yours. We aren't talking about spankings, we're talking about abuse disguised as religious training.
Why don't you try thinking about children as little adults, with souls of their own and minds of their own, which you ARE responsible to PROTECT, not ALTER or DAMAGE. Teaching a child to be respectful starts with showing a child respect. I have spanked my children, on the behind, and even on the hand, as you describe. I don't believe that that constitutes abuse. I don't think that a spanking teaches or fosters respect.

What your saying about beating a kid for 7 hours till death is just plain common sense I felt no need to mention it as I would've assumed any reader of my post wouldn't jump to the conclusion I was condoning what those parents did KILLING their child!!. As for what the minister wrote in that book neither one of us has read it and I'm pretty sure the dude in the video didn't bother too read it either. I have a pretty good idea what can and can't do damage seeing as how received those ass whoopings with a variety of different implements and you didn't.

I realize that their Is a difference between abuse and discipline. A 7 hour beating is absurd to anyone with a brain in their head but this situation was an anomaly carried out by idiots, and is in no way an example of anything being wrong with corporal punishment.

Clearly you don't have kids I don't care what a child agrees with, they would Agree not to eat their veggies, eat pizza all day and get toys whenever they feel like. What they need to agree to is too do what I say it's a god damn dictatorship until teenage years where they start to get some democratic rights. Getting a ass whooping or not is completely under his/her control by their behaviour. In America when your a out of control adult they send you to a jail where rape is common place and mostly ignored. Hell police abuse is so commonplace cops are arresting people for pointing their camera phones. Young people being abused by the system and even killed by it the videos are on here every day, that is the way of the world your soft approach will leave your future kids vulnerable. They need discipline, to be toughened up taught to defend themselves intellectually and physically brought to be strong willed strong minded people prepared to handle adversity and not let bad things in life turn them into bad people. This non violent utopia in your dreams does not exist. Violence is
a part of life.

You can't just start corporal punishment at any age if your kid is 14 acting the fool and you didn't start hitting them from when he/she was young it's too late you have not established your authority.

I will remind you that the entire system of the world is based on the strong preying on the weak, this is the way of the world now, and for the foreseeable future, but the parent striking a child isn't about the strong and the weak it's about teacher and student.

Clearly I don't have children? I have four children, 20, 17, 4 and 1. My 20 year old is extremely well developed, he can even spell behavior and use God-damned correctly, both in speech and in written format. Clearly, your parents didn't whoop your ass when it came to learning spelling and grammer. My 17 year old graduated high school a week after his 17th birthday. My 4 year old and my 1 year old are just starting their trip through this world, and I hope that they are as successful and wonderful as their older siblings are. If your post here is any indication, your children are being taught to be bullies by their big bully Daddy. Good for you. If you respond to every situation with seething anger and violence you are creating a world I do not want my children to have to endure. 14 is far too old for a spanking. By 8 years old a child is capable of logical thought and you should be able to reason with them regarding your expectations and consequences of bad choices. Facing violence in the outer world is no excuse for subjecting children to violence in their homes. That's a ridiculous excuse.

You are right, I do check over my posts, and your "case in point" makes no sense. Nor does the rest of your rant, also filled with misspellings and grammatical errors. Are you seriously relating suicide rates to the use of corporal punishment? Are you seriously calling people who commit suicide weak and making the case that they deserve to die because they aren't strong enough to withstand living in a world full of people like you? I was subjected to spankings while being raised and I have spanked my own children, as I stated in my first post. My mother had nine children to raise and she resorted to spanking as needed. I don't believe that that experience strengthened me as a person, nor do I believe that spanking is necessary to prepare children for life. If you feel the need to justify your treatment of your children, probably there is a little voice in you telling you you've done something wrong. The resentment and anger that you are throwing at me, calling me a fool and vilifying people who have taken their own lives is distasteful to say the least, evidence of a man unable or unwilling to experience empathy for others is probably more like it. I can only say that I hope your children are so hardened by you that they treat you in old age with the same attitude you apparently had for them in their infancy/youth. I wish you a painful and lonely, but full of strength, old age. Goodbye.

I do not know whether or not the young man who posted this has read that book or not. I do have to agree that he goes too far in the ugly language and disparaging all Christians.

I have however, read part of that book, could not finish it due to my own personal discomfort with what this "minister of Christ" was advocating. He is not advocationg for rational disipline. Because you state that you have not read this book, I am going to assume that you do not subscribe to this man's point of view. The weapons he suggests are not your mothers hairbrush, or the wooden spoon, etc. He actually does specify those plumbing flexlines as a weapon of choice. Those flexlines are made to last and are very durable.

Your assumption that I never had corporal punishment applied to me, is quite mistaken. My father was an alcoholic, so I recieved both corporal punishment, when he was sober; and abuse when he was drunk. When you actually try to kill your child by strangulation, or breaking their neck; that is not corporal punishment. How disipline was applied was very very different depending on his particular state at the time, and when he was drunk the beatings were applied without a violation of any rules as prerequisite to the beatings.

I agree with you that I have seen a deterioration in behavioral standards in children in the past 20-30 years. However, I do not agree that it is simply due to the decrease in the use of corporal punishment. Many young parents do not provide any kind of discipline at all. When a child is given everyting they want when they want it, and never suffer any consequences for unacceptable behavior; the outcome will more likely than not be most undesireable. I have raised three children to be hard working responsible citizens, and still have a nine year old daughter at home. I don't even find the rational application of corporal punishment to be particularly offensive. That being said, I have little faith in many peoples ability to acytually apply discipline rationally.

Rant? LOL, All this so called anger your feeling is your own emotions bubbling up, I never exhibited any sort of anger, you're looking so hard at the words your seeing shit that isn't there. Taking my statements and making shit up.

Bottom line people with thicker skin can withstand more shit, mentally and physically point blank period.

Kids are literally commiting suicide over their xbox, if that can cause such psychological trauma that you literally fall too pieces than you have it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy, somebody need to too make that kid walk 10 miles barefoot with a pail on his/her head everyday to show him/her how people in the world really live, i put the suicide shit out there because people like you are too busy being politically correct not to address it directly.

I don't waste time empathizing about situations that can be fixed, sure i'm sorry these kids are blowing their heads off but id rather talk about stopping it than being sorry about it.

More than likely when push comes too shove it will be a kid like mine trained to defend himself and disciplined that will be the one coming to save one of your kids asses when shit hits the fan.

If i thought it was wrong i wouldnt be here discussing it with you, nothing is more right.

I also agree that there isn't just one cause too anything including the deterioration of child behaviour, but i do believe that many of those things you mentioned are remedied in many cases by corporal punishment.

When i was growing up it was much more commonplace kids were much more disciplined. Hell we had candy machines based on the honour system, kids never said the F word to their parents. Now we have a society where 11 year old girls are giving blowjobs for potato chips and their parents are wasting hundreds of dollars an hour sending them to child psychologists to get them to agree to stop, i think thats more insane than three quick wacks to the bottom every now and again.

I think abusive people are going to abusive, men have been taught not to hit women for ages but every day some poor lady is taking a right hook, a couple jabs, and a patented ike turner karate chop to the throat some people get some kind of twisted satisfaction out of completely dominating those that cannot defend themselves against them.

Even joynoel who is staunchly against it has used it but can't point too where it has caused him or his children harm after the stinging had subsided.

Clearly this minister who wrote the book is nuts, but i suppose in hindsight any guide for spanking should not be any larger than a leaflet.

I think one of the root causes too the lack of discipline is that people are so much more overworked these days and there are so much more single mothers out there, even with the father in the child's life it is not usually on a daily basis, raising children has deteriorated into a longterm babysitting gig where the parents aren't really living up too their end of the bargain.

It's no use talking to this person, an ass through and through. He thinks he's the toughest thing going and noone has lived a life with hardship. You don't have to share your personal experiences with him. Kids have it tough enough without someone in their life who feels the right to harm them in order to give them the taste of what life will be like for them "in the real world". Funny, I haven't needed to be physically ready for combat everyday that I've been living out here in the adult world. He sees the world as a combat zone, and probably in his life it is one. Your life is what you make it, and if living free of physical harm makes my children pansy assess, then so be it. Better that than growing up to believe that their children must be hurt in order to "be ready" for the next bastard that thinks they have the right to harm them. Kind of like the head of the church who was "training" the little girls to be good wives, huh? Normal people do not want their children to suffer through things that hurt them when they were young. Maybe this is why people do not want to hit their children. I don't remember any time that I was struck as a child with the idea that it toughened me up. Children do not have it easy these days, they are forced to deal with all sorts of adult issues way too early. The sexualization of our children is rampant, the number of children who are abducted, tortured and killed is outrageous and continues to climb. If our adult citizens were abducted at this rate in any other country we would consider those crimes to be terroristic. Our children are exposed to violence and illness of the mind and soul at a rate that is unhealthy and unbearable to many adults. There are no "communities" that step in to help children whose parents are unfit, as would happen in older times. The kids are taken now and thrown into an even worse foster care system, where they can be abused some more, and even be murdered and missing for years without anyone even knowing. Heroes are people who step in to alleviate pain and save people from suffering. This man is not raising heroes as he believes, instead he is instilling a "it's me against them" mentality. His children would not be available to step in and save my kids assess, as he states, more likely they would be the ones committing acts against their fellow human beings like our heroes in the Iraqi POW facilities. No empathy, no realization of the harm they do to others. I wouldn't be surprised to find a bunker in this guys basement, with a bunch of Glenn Beck survival packs and a couple of bricks of gold. Don't waste your breath or time on this anymore, this man has a closed mind and is incapable of even considering another point of view.

I think that you missed the point of BEATING A CHILD FOR SEVEN HOURS UNTIL SHE DIED.

I do not think children should never be chastised. Maybe there are some cases when a parent might deem that a spanking is not enough. But there is a limit. Causing permanent damage or death to a child is unacceptable and does not make us bleeding hearts for saying so.

I wonder how often people fall into their main-stream media training routines and moon-jump to conclusions. That is, if we're a bit liberal here then our messages must all be bleeding heart messages designed to interfere with families and culture. Clearly, there is a difference between killing someone, and saving someone's life. If anything should be different then there it is.

My question for anyone who can answer is, what must be done to snap people out of their right-wing neocon evangelical libertarian liberal-bashing training routines? It seems as if they are brain dead.

It shouldn't take a bleeding heart to feel for these kids. Any heart at all should do it. You, obviously and sadly are of the same ilk as these perpetrators of torture. Of course, you would allow yourself to be treated the way this child was if someone wanted to teach you a lesson, no. email me and I'll give you my address. Stop by anytime and I'll be happy to "educate" you in respect for religion. Just call ahead so I can schedule a full seven hours for you.

I have no idea how to talk sense to the metaphorically deaf, but that does not stop me from trying. :)

I apologize, but from a reasonably scientific, ethical, and cultural standpoint, I find your argument at fault.

Am I against physical punishment? Yes, I am. Am I against other people doing it to an extent? Not necessarily, provided there is a level of restraint. Please allow me to explain.

If you're going to spank your child, it needs to be completely understood why they're being punished. Second, there must be no gratitude or personal satisfication stemming from the spanking for the parent. If there is any satisfication, then you're not punishing the child for the sake of preventing them sticking a butter knife into a wall socket, no, you're doing it for relief—and by that—pleasure of yourself.

Finally, there must be a level of restraint in the pain, itself. EVERYONE I've met who has had something other than a hand hit their body (that's a spatula, belt, etc.) has had inadvertent psychological and personality consequences thereof (These are people close to me). Therefore, if you're going to hit your kid, don't be so cowardly as to have to use something other than your own hand, as if it were allowing you to escape the guilt. Besides, plenty of pain can come from a hand, too. Since you believe in psychology, ALL credited psychology evidence points to this.

Now, I'm not sure what you mean by studied psychology—whether that means you took PSY101, or you majored in it—but for one thing there are few, if any, practicing psychologists with a Bachelors. So either you have a Ph.D, or you've scratched the surface of psychology. If you've got a Ph.D, then you've not been reading the latest psychology medical journals.

I myself have spoken with psychologists, and the topic of spanking is as controversial for a psychologist as a politician taking a bold step toward abortion on any extreme (the independents are too crucial to truly make progress in either direction). The general consensus, however, is that spanking be a last resort and follow the guidelines previously said.

First of all, such punishment "psychologically" only tells the child what they've done wrong, but not what they could do right. This sounds obvious to an adult, but not to a child. Second, the act isn't a constructive punishment, meaning the punishment does not aid in correcting the issue by direct means—only by associating pain with not doing something. This again has permenant consequences throughout life. Finally, it creates relationship issues with your parents.

Now, on to your post.

To bruise up a deaf mute in order to prevent him from getting hit by a car is a dilemma with which you logically take the route with the least repercussions. You have no choice. Punishment is a choice, and happens after-the-fact. You have time to decide a more appropriate "punishment" than having to react in the moment—such is the case when you must react when your child sticks his butterknife into the wall socket. In situations like this, these are no-win situations. And that's life. But this example is a far-cry from beating your child with a belt, and much less using something like a PVC pipe for 7 hours...

If your child wants martial arts lessons, and your instructor says that, I would recommend another instructor. I'm in martial arts, myself, and I train with a man who has the highest possible belt and has taught at multiple schools and universities (decades of experience). We don't even Spar for a multitude of reasons (this isn't Tai Chi, either). To learn martial arts, you need not take an actual strike. Only toward brown and black belts will you ever have the opportunity to learn "body hardening" techniques. This is certainly consensual, and is thus irrelevant to the act of punishment where the victim has no choice in the matter.

Why do you call us bleeding hearts? Shall we call you stone hearts—or mindless robots? This is silly and immature name-calling.

It certainly is an attack on religion, and rightfully so. But it goes deeper than that. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you're attempting to argue on when you talk about the one-size-fits-all culture. To be honest, the core of my arguments about what needs to change in this country indeed centers around that concept, too. So we're not so different after all. Certain things, however, such as child abuse and manipulation are something I thought everyone was firm on though (regardless of its origins, the bible, this child-discipline book, and these people are either tools or cogs toward a persuasive objective).

You have a pretty vague retort regarding National Geographic and their dealing with "'off the wall' potentially dangerous stuff." But I think I understand what you're talking about. Why do we not intervene when we observe a New Guinea tribe performing acts of cannibalism? This actually reminds me of a provocative philosophy question my teacher once posed.

The issue lies in a complex entanglement of sovereignty, culture and ethnocentrism, and "the majority." Taking a quality Sociology and Philosophy/ethics class clears (or muddles, technically) this up pretty well. National Geographic does not get ensnared by this issue because they have no right. Their purpose is largely to observe nature, not moderate it. Now, of course there are organizations out there—religious activists in particular—trying to grapple with these tribes.

But I hardly find it fair, or even rational, to compare how we treat secluded tribes to the way we feel that WE should behave. There is a reason we're not called barbarians anymore, and that is because we are introspective on the actions we partake in (for the most part). Further, we cannot possibily find the justification to intervene on their culture—on their turf—and set the standards. We can, and should, only be concerned for ourselves. But remember that "majority"? When there is clear and present injustice in the world, and the people within that soverign land are crying for aid, and the rest of the world is behind them, only THEN does the intervention on a soverign people appear to be justified. Does this work every time? No, but civilization is far from perfect.

The reason we sit back and supposedly "destroy YOUR" culture is because it isn't just YOUR culture, it's everyone's whether you like it or not. And since we all are in THIS culture, we all have a say—including you. You don't go and tell your neighbor how to run his house, but for everyone in YOUR house, they have to some degree a say.

The strongest thing you can do is to learn communication. With every single argument I've had over a controversial issue with a conservative, our differences lie in the ability to communicate and to understand what true logic is.

Thus, remain level-headed and never attack the person. These people love to brawl—they're for whatever reason the bullies who used to roam the playground looking for a fight. Treat them as you would like to be treated, and argue for a completely reasonable perspective, touching largely on logic, some pathos (appeal to their religious side), and maintain your ethos by not attacking them—only their argument.

Do some research on the text-book logical fallacies, and in almost every single discussion you have, you will be able to point them out; concurrently, you will also be able to strengthen your own arguments.

Are any of us perfect in discussion? Absolutely not, but we can strive to be. Just my two-cents.

Communication could be taught in grade school and would do wonders.

My problem with the tabula-rasa theory is studies completed on identical twins that were separated at birth. Raised in completely different situations and yet as adults, incredibly similar even though their separate experiences may have been vastly different.

I do not discount experiences at all, because they are important in the formulation of human growth. However, I do not think anyone is actually born with a blank slate. People have genetic tendencies toward violence, passivity, learning disabilities, genius and every trait one can imagine.

Mental illness is an invented construct and always subjective. Psychiatry is mostly pseudo-science. Scientifically, we know so very little about the human brain and its workings. I am always suspicious of labels.

I see what you are saying about societal norms. I see religion as brainwashing, just as I see it in America's recent propaganda about the necessity of war in the middle east. But there are some people in the world that can see very clearly past the bullshit very quickly and I am not sure this comes from experience and learning alone.

There is a combination effect of nature and nurture. Not all abused children grow up and abuse children. Not all "well-raised" children, turn out to be good parents. Yes, everyone is a snowflake for sure.

For whatever reason these two people were extremely sadistic and I agree that the book had nothing to do with it. These people would have done what they did anyway because they were evil, sadistic monsters. I don't know what made them that way and after the death of a child, I don't care. I just do not want them to ever get the opportunity to hurt another child.

Thank you for your reply, Ed. You have many good points.

I suppose I should reiterate my statement on the tabula rasa theory. Like you, I do think there is a blend. In a geeky way, I sort of envision a newborn child like I view a brand new character made in a typical RPG (I'm thinking Morrowind, personally): vices and virtues, major skills and minor. Genetics determine where those skills remain at the start of your life and which skills are stunted and which excel. Human experience allows you to develop all these traits and characteristics, though not necessarily at the same rate as somebody else. Still, is it inherently YOUR fault that you have more testosterone and are thus more aggressive? No, I still blame "life." To continuously blame the person leads to lackluster justice and no prevention of the same crime further on. Though then again, I do believe you must have some level of personal responsibility. I don't intend to let this be an excuse. Believe me, I don't propose to have answers, haha.

The study on the twins is definitely interesting, and certainly makes sense from all that I've read. So I certainly do not discount it. My only questions on the study would be on just how different were the environments they were raised in? Same state/country? Same type of schooling? And in what ways were they still very similar? In America, very many kids share almost exactly the same childhood: curiosity, television, internet, secret-relationships, teddy-bears and stuffed bunnies, sports, bullies, acne, sex, dating, public-education. That certainly is the American child culture, and every other child in America can relate (except for me to some degree, being home-schooled my whole life). It's what makes us always feel, to some degree, at home within our own country. Did these twins go through similar life experiences, AND have copied genes? Then I would say they certainly would be similar, based on the combination (RPG) theory.

But if you took one of the twins (granted, this is hypothetical) and just randomly beat the shit out of him on a daily basis in a hard-working farm environment in a poor family in a poor area and poor school district, while the other goes off to a kind and loving new-age family with lots of money, privately taught at home, in a beautiful area at a beach, 2,500 miles away from the other twin etc... I honestly cannot doubt that there would be substantial differences in their adult counterparts, regardless of them being twins.

My largest concern in all of this is to stay away from something like eugenics, as well as outcasting those who are squares attempting to fit into the cookie-cutter shape of a circle called society. I'm a big believer in empathy and understanding. Rather than have anger, I'm desperately trying to instead of pity and figure out WHY—rather than credit it toward evil or something impossible to change (such is the case when people say they were "naturally evil.") Many countries (I can think of Denmark and Norway) are waking up to the fact that revenge/retaliation/punishment often only facilitates more of the same. Rehabilitation is the next step in crime prevention. But it goes bigger than that, as well. Society as a whole needs to wake up and begin adapting. Crime is a clear indication of something at fault with the system.

It took human experience—growth—and an evaluation if past events in history for me to understand the big picture of propaganda, and that it itself is continuously evolving rather than always coming in the form of a dark and stubby mustache, and high-contrast intimidation posters.

At this point, it's hard to say whose fault it is: the individual who believed in the rhetoric, or the skilled persuader? This revolves around my belief in the importance of "defensive communication." A lot of people are susceptible to rhetoric, and only knowing communication and language are you able to protect yourself. Otherwise, you're simply vulnerable. I certainly do think the book has much to do with it, as the author is exploiting an audience already partially taken down a path of manipulation (the Church and Bible). Honestly, I believe I could do it, too. I can take a kind "Christian" family, and slowly deteriorate their previously held beliefs and morals to the extent that they didn't even realize it happened. If done right, they can more match sadism all the while believing they're still those charitable folks living the American dream. I can make them fanatics in any way I want—and I'm not that smart. Other people out there know this, too. Persuasion and manipulation are bigger industries than we think.

Any standard American prison will be violent enough for that.

I know I could water board their asses all day. Where's Dexter when you need him?

Ah, Stoney, you knew I would love this. :)