Community | October 07, 2011 | 95 comments

Thomas Jefferson: A Rebellion or Revolution is needed every 20 years!

source: http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl64.htm

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kennymotown
The actual letter our Thomas Jefferson the writer of the Declaration of Independence penned so long ago. I'd say we are 200 years overdue!



To William S. Smith Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

DEAR SIR,

-- I am now to acknoledge the receipt of your favors of October the 4th, 8th, & 26th. In the last you apologise for your letters of introduction to Americans coming here. It is so far from needing apology on your part, that it calls for thanks on mine. I endeavor to shew civilities to all the Americans who come here, & will give me opportunities of doing it: and it is a matter of comfort to know from a good quarter what they are, & how far I may go in my attentions to them. Can you send me Woodmason's bills for the two copying presses for the M. de la Fayette, & the M. de Chastellux? The latter makes one article in a considerable account, of old standing, and which I cannot present for want of this article. -- I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: & very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: & what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted. -- You ask me if any thing transpires here on the subject of S. America? Not a word. I know that there are combustible materials there, and that they wait the torch only. But this country probably will join the extinguishers. -- The want of facts worth communicating to you has occasioned me to give a little loose to dissertation. We must be contented to amuse, when we cannot inform.


But of course we should let our current protests continue without violence, but when you see that the Rulers of this country will not budge and that good feeling you had when you protested goes away cause nothing has been done to right the wrongs. Whats next?
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95 comments // Thomas Jefferson: A Rebellion or Revolution is needed every 20 years!

  • PIANORAMA
  • DanCastro
    • +1
      DanCastro  

    • So they right used "beliefs" to run on and take over the country and then they find that they are supposed to live up to those "ideals" when in public and suddenly "wide stance" and "walking the old Appalachian trail" are scattered through out our public discourse, as much as "I did not have sex with that woman"! Then they cook up the Tea Baggers are a way to divert from the Wall St. crashes and the banks losses and failure to keep its fiduciary responsibility when they sold loans they need would fail! Now the tea bags are uncovered as yet another "bought and paid for" cover for their thefts and we still are not yet identifying and accusing them? Go figure!
      I say a one day nation wide strike to show Congress and the World we are still "The United States of America" and "We, the People" are 'large and in charge!' What a organizing tool and we can use social media to get er done. Plus we don't have to do anything except stay home (except essential services) and let the 1% try to run the country w/o US, you know "A day w/o the working class"!

    • 8 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +1
      JanforGore  

    • Here are some scenes from HBO's John Adams showing Thomas Jefferson as played brilliantly by Steven Dillane.Thomas Jefferson had a great faith in the people and a true belief in liberty despite the times he lived in that kept true liberty from taking hold in America even after the Revolution. I think it is an interesting dichotomy seeing how we have come to be the country we are in comparison to the reasons why the Colonists left England to begin with.

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • Nick19
    • +1
      Nick19  

    • This was early in American history and we were still in a stage of experimentation. So ideas like this were part of the earlier days of experimenting and toying around with certain ideas on how a republic should be run. Thomas Jefferson's idea was probably relating to the Social Contract theory since he recognized that government might become inefficient overtime and may no longer satisfy the people's demands (rich white landowners anyways).

    • 8 months ago
  • Leen61
  • squarethecircle
  • kennymotown
  • CalgarC
  • Paratus
    • -2
      Paratus  

    • How would you change the role of government as defined under ARticle I, Section 8? Would you change the duties of the president? IF so, how. Election of representatives? What would your Bill of Rights look like? The Constitution, as written, prohibited tax on income, would you change this? How?

    • 8 months ago
  • Paratus
  • Progresshiv
    • +4
      Progresshiv  

    • My favorite lines from Jefferson's letter:

      "The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • DanCastro
    • +1
      DanCastro  
    • Progresshiv:

      Very well said, for its time. We should be paying attention at discovering all the ways we have been robbed and deceived so we can more properly formulate our 'grievances' as a common activity. Most 'rebellions' fail due to lack of proper ground work and consensus building. The group needs to get its message to the nation and then I think a call for a one day general strike would be a wonderful tool for organizing the nation to stand behind an issue, say "pass the jobs plan intact ASAP" and if not done by "fill in agreed date here" we will propose a nation wide strike to be pre-ceeded by teach-ins which will explain the groups grievance and gather support.
      Every human creation you can see started "life" as a thought in the mind of a human. Why do we insist on killing or robbing one another when if we harnessed our combined brain power, what problem could stand unsolved? We couldn't do the 3 minute mile because the human body can't run that fast. The first guy didn't know it could not be done so he did it and now everybody does. Gamers may have discovered the code to the protective coating around aids and so we may be on our way to a cure! What would this earth look like if for one year we spent money on tech and a "space race" to get all Americans connected and trained in app use and development? What if we paid people based on how many people thought the idea had merit? Could we not rapidly fix what we have broken and make "heaven" here on earth? Ask yourself why we don't? Why greedy old people want to hang on to power to the moment of death and beyond and don't give a damn if it kills everyone of US and why we allow it. Shame on US! We have been great and we can be so again, if we have the will!

    • 8 months ago
  • Progresshiv
    • +2
      Progresshiv  
    • DanCastro:

      Thanks for your inspiring comments. Yes, we can make good things happen, and we must keep our focus on a positive future. I have been advocating a general do-not-buy-anything day for November 5, 2011. We all need not to buy a thing that day to shut down the malls, the gas stations, the restaurants, and all of the non-local businesses that have been funneling our money into the hands of the predators.

      November 5, 2011 do not but anything. Get the attention of the crooks by cutting off their flow of cash.

    • 8 months ago
  • DanCastro
    • +2
      DanCastro  
    • Progresshiv:

      Excellent thought! I was looking at the one day strike idea as a method of giving everyone in the nation (the world? ;-) a day on which the 99% stay home and give the 1% who are trying to rob and kill US (with pollution), a chance to run the country! "A day w/o the American Working Class"? We could easily see the effect of the will of the majority and it should send massive chills down the "let them eat cake!" Wall St and Bank establishment that we might actually we "the sheep look up!" ;-) Plus, if we demand they pass the jobs bill immediately and w/o delaying change/amendment or we will use our new combined power, again!
      100 years from now, hopefully, our descendants will wonder how we let ourselves be cheated while we smiled and applauded our financial rapists? Working together what can we not do? I say "space race" to make Social Media the next evolution of our movement towards "a more perfect Union" and using our most valuable resource by truly spending money on the future and life not listing to people who would deceive US for their gain and maintain endless war for their profit regardless of its impact on the nation or our world!

    • 8 months ago
  • Progresshiv
  • DanCastro
    • +1
      DanCastro  
    • Progresshiv:

      While I applaud your enthusiasm, I hope I have not misspoken and somehow given the impression that I have any say in the activities of OWS. I admire the hell out of them, but I have no way except by these postings to ask them to consider the idea. I absolutely believe that a nation-wide one day strike would be just the tool needed to demonstrate the depth of the movement and to scare the bejusus out of the lawmakers who would stand before the Tsunami of personal/voter opinion and try to stop the President's jobs bill. Once that success is behind US, we have time to come up with others even more progressive!

    • 8 months ago
  • Progresshiv
  • Kelly_Balthrop
  • Kelly_Balthrop
  • Progresshiv
  • DanCastro
    • 0
      DanCastro  
    • Progresshiv:

      i can agree with that. i would love a unifying one day nation wide strike soon "while the iron is hot! once we show the numbers after the strike, it will be much easier not to hear "just a 'mob'! when the congress passes the jobs bill afterwords will like VE/VA/VJ DAYS COMBINED! I'm looking forward 2 all the kissing!!

    • 8 months ago
  • letsliveinpeace
  • kennymotown
  • cabinettags
    • +4
      cabinettags  

    • Thanks for this post Kenny. Jefferson was a man worth the time to read.

      This is a long post folks, but Jefferson was a man that I admire. These quotes were taken from:
      http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_jefferson_9.html

      Lots more where these came from. Worth the read.

      Is it not interesting that Jefferson formed the Republican party? You know, the party most everyone here seems to hold in contempt? It's also interesting to note that Jefferson was a slave owner - yet he presided over the abolition of the international slave trade. Times change - people change.

      Some interesting quotes:

      "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

      "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories."

      "Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny"

      "For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. "

      "He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. "

      "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. "

      "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be. "

      "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. "

      "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

      "If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour? "

      "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. "

      "It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. "

      "It is neither wealth nor splendor; but tranquility and occupation which give you happiness. "

      "Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations. "

      "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

      "Never spend your money before you have earned it. "

      "One man with courage is a majority. "

      "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual"

      "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. "

      "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. "

      "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive"

      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "

      "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "

      "When angry count to ten before you speak. If very angry, count to one hundred. "

      "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. "

      "When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on. "

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • cabinettags
    • +1
      cabinettags  
    • kennymotown:

      Hey Kenny, Has been a good while, a lot of which I had to do without internet service. Makes visiting Current a tad difficult. Seems like there's only a few of us old timers still here. Good to see ya.

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
    • +1
      kennymotown  
    • cabinettags:

      Yes many have vanished! Good to see you too. You'll have to check out the kennymotown show group and catch up. And if you are inclined to post a 3 or 4 minute video comment let me know! 12 episodes so far and we start filming today for episode 13, your going to be surprised. :)

    • 8 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +2
      JanforGore  
    • cabinettags:

      "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. "

      This is one of my favorites. We will bring this country back to liberty.

      This is another one of my favorites:

      “Cultivators of the earth are the most valuable citizens. They are the most vigorous, the most independant, the most virtuous, and they are tied to their country and wedded to it’s liberty and interests by the most lasting bands”

      I think we lose touch with how valuable liberty is when we lose touch with our Earth.

    • 8 months ago
  • cabinettags
  • JanforGore
  • Toughth
    • +3
      Toughth  

    • Jefferson has pointed out the basic problem with our nation, lethargy because we trusted those in charg to do anything to make sure that our libertys are protected. WE gave up liberty when we were atacked on 9/11. We allowed our leaders to pass the patriot act. We allowed our leaders to torture people, We allowed or leaders to torture people in direct contrivention of all civilized action. we alowed ourselves to become embrioled in a war based on a lie. Let us have a leader that is a despot. our security would be tied to a dictator.

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • Ambill94
    • +4
      Ambill94  

    • This is a little off topic, but I think it is in some ways apropos...it took me a little while to find it, but I thought of this after 911 and watch the prostests today brought it mind again: "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
      Abraham Lincoln. We can never walk away from our responsibilities as the caretakers of our freedoms again.

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • Ambill94
  • kennymotown
  • Anonmaly
    • +1
      Anonmaly  

    • Like his quotes (some of them) but I can't stand the hypocrite on a personal level.... Would not have liked him, well maybe in his very late years...

    • 8 months ago
  • WagonMaster
  • kennymotown
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
  • Ambill94
    • +3
      Ambill94  

    • "There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress."
      Mark Twain. Ziggy I read your post and I do agree with much of what you said...however I really fear that we are fast approaching the point where: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants." This oft quoted line from TJ's letter may be the outcome if the confrontation in the streets continues and the political leaders don't wake up soon and act decisively to end the corruption.

    • 8 months ago
  • ZiggyStrange
    • +5
      ZiggyStrange  
    • Ambill94:

      Thank you.

      I hope it goes the way I want. I'm in to the end either way, One of my sons just got back and he spoke with a marine, a cop, a woman selected at random among scores of others, and what they had to say was very hopeful.

      The cop agrees with the protest but fears only insurrection will work.

      The marine in uniform was there to protect the protesters as were many other marines in plain clothes. All there to protect. This is very important.

      The woman was dying and had come to donate a a drum emblazoned with the stickers and buttons from protests she attended in the last 40 years. She came from Florida to pass it on and said she will be dead in a month, but the cause lives on.

      It's well coalesced and the feeling was one of focused unity. There are learning centers, legal center, media center, medical center, recycling, library, and lots of informative pamphlets being provided. There was also a lot of discipline. The young are displaying some good traits in terms of social interaction and everyone is aware that fragmentation into factions would undermine the end goal.

      Having experienced the 60's version this is more than I expected the young would come up with at this time,

      Best

      Ziggy

    • 8 months ago
  • Ambill94
  • NiceN
  • kennymotown
  • ZiggyStrange
    • +8
      ZiggyStrange  

    • As promised.

      I read in this letter the words of a patriot, and deep thinking man. I feel his frustration and understand his conclusions. However I have to disagree with it's relevance to our current circumstances.

      If we look only at communication technology we can recognize the exponential growth and impact of being able to communicate in real time. Taking this into account the 20 years become seconds in logical relevance given the cause of Jefferson's concerns being primarily lack of accurate information.

      We face other more complex problems like; Why are working class people supporting the extreme right? It's the speed and effectiveness of the propaganda that reaches them which makes them invulnerable to reason,

      If we insert the advances in weaponry and our military strength it is clear the answer to our problem is not one of violent insurrection, The consequences are too grave to be considered. Much like a nuclear exchange with another superpower there would be nothing left to build a nation. We don't want a revolution of blood, we need a revolution of thinking.

      I'm in NY. I see what is happening at the wall Street protest every day, The police don't want to abuse the people. The PD does, and soon, so will the Mayor.

      We are headed for a point of conflict here that is purely economic. Once the Mayor deems that he can no longer afford the protest, he will move to limit it or shut it down. This is when you are going to see which way this thing will go.

      If the NY police attack the protesters and there is a bloody melee it's a bad omen of things to come.

      I don't believe the police will treat the protesters as enemies. I could be wrong but you can see it in the eyes of the cops in blue. They are not comfortable with what is going on and many look like they want to join the protest.

      We need more people to come and show our freedom and solidarity.

      We have to organize and demand remedy from our representatives and overturn "Citizens United", neutralize the Republican Tea machine and demand the elected Government do it's job.

      We can take down corporations in weeks or months if we want to. Cancelling your Comcast cable and not shopping at Walmart is a good start, Buy American.

      The wealthy will pay the taxes if we raise them. They will bring back and create jobs if we force them to do it.

      We are the enablers let's get together and stop financing their agenda.

      I don't believe it is time for a violent insurrection in this country nor do I think one would further our goals at this time.

      With all due respect I say non violent is the way to go,

    • 8 months ago
  • KB723
  • ZiggyStrange
  • KB723
  • kennymotown
  • ZiggyStrange
  • KB723
  • SFirman
  • David_H
  • ZiggyStrange
  • kennymotown
  • ZiggyStrange
  • David_H
  • artemis6
    • +4
      artemis6  
    • ZiggyStrange:

      And Martin Luther King . Because non violence WORKS . Expect agents to make the protests look violent . They desperately need a way to villainize us . That is how they can get the upper hand , because they have way more weapons .

    • 8 months ago
  • ZiggyStrange
    • +4
      ZiggyStrange  
    • David_H:

      I have told you in the past that I don't give a tinkers damn what you say or think. insult me all you want. You are wrong.

      The reasons the British gave up on India were many. Ghandi came along and galvanized the people. All the isms mean nothing when you can shut down all of India at the request of a non violent dissenter. Read the facts.

      You look at things through distorted lenses.
      Egypt and the U.S. are not analogous. That was a very poor example.

      Tell me David, why did the USSR crumble like a sand castle without a violent revolution?

      I don't like to engage in personal attacks with people, specially when they use irrelevant examples and revisionist history to couch their real purpose. You saw an opportunity to start a fight and like the person that you are, you jumped at it. Next time try to pick a subject you are versed in.

      Non violence works. It's the right thing to do for civilized people.

      Violence is the last resort, You are wrong.

      Last word on me David I have only so much time for you.
      make it count.

    • 8 months ago
  • ZiggyStrange
    • +4
      ZiggyStrange  
    • artemis6:

      Dead on target.

      They are even lying about conditions there at the protest, there is a waste removal organization picking up all the garbage.put together by the people.

      The Mayor would love for violence to break out so he could end the protest.

      Keep the faith,

    • 8 months ago
  • artemis6
  • JanforGore
    • +3
      JanforGore  
    • ZiggyStrange:

      I agree with you that it should always be the last resort. Violence is the coward's way. It takes much more resolve, focus and moral character to perform true civil disobedience. It is the way of enlightened civilized people. Satyagraha.

    • 8 months ago
  • ZiggyStrange
  • KB723
  • kennymotown
    • +2
      kennymotown  
    • KB723:

      We shall see, it's always good to have a certain level of paranoia for ones self preservation. We should all be talking about whats in store for our current rebellion and protests. Talking back and forth creates rational actions, I for one am literally pissed off at the continued Republican voter suppression tactics and if there is an actual Presidential election in 2012 I'm calling for the destruction of republican voting machines in their districts. Nobody gets hurt and a wrench is thrown into the corrupted scheme of their own. We have the right to disrupt their voting rights if they continue to take away our citizens right to vote!

    • 8 months ago
  • KB723
    • 0
      KB723  
    • kennymotown:

      We also have the right to shoot them dead... I am not seeing the midway here lately, pretty much why I threw in the towel after the 2004 elections... I agree that we must speak, but we must also take action, even though we are F*cked, we still must try... Here's a tune for you Kenny... =)

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
    • +4
      kennymotown  
    • KB723:

      Keep your powder dry KB, unless they fire first in front of the world. Then you will have the opportunity. For now we must give peace a chance, the last thing that at this time is needed is for the rebellion being labeled violent or anarchist. I know for a fact the Police want to join the movement as well, they would make better comrades than enemy!

    • 8 months ago
  • KB723
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
    • +3
      kennymotown  
    • David_H:

      David I am sure you are well aware of the voter suppression tactics used in Florida, and they have been using these same tactics every election since. I am merely pointing out that smashing voter machines in heavily populated republican areas would be akin to throwing tea overboard. Tit for tat maybe, but justice in my mind. We got 8 years of W by not throwing these people into jail and look where that led us. :)

    • 8 months ago
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
    • +3
      kennymotown  
    • David_H:

      I do get your point, I do happen to believe Al Gore would have made a 100-1 better President than Bush. He won Florida and everyone knows it, including the 20,000 blacks scrubbed from the voting rolls for supposed Felony's. And shame on all of us for not rioting in the streets when the Supreme Court picked Bush!

    • 8 months ago
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
  • chew_chew
    • +2
      chew_chew  

    • "But of course we should let our current protests continue without violence, but when you see that the Rulers of this country will not budge and that good feeling you had when you protested goes away cause nothing has been done to right the wrongs. Whats next?"

      This comes from the perspective that peaceful protests will not spur desired change. My perspective is, they will.

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
    • +3
      kennymotown  
    • chew_chew:

      And to you I say my friend, I hope your right! I think it could go either way, after-all we have millions of people in this country that have not been treated fairly over the last thirty years. I wish they all have the capability's of Doctor King, or Ghandi. Humans will be humans!

    • 8 months ago
  • chew_chew
  • kennymotown
  • artemis6
  • JanforGore
  • kennymotown
    • +3
      kennymotown  
    • JanforGore:

      I thought it was time to post the actual letter that has pieces of it used by various groups to show what Mr. Jefferson was thinking when he wrote it. I have done a lot of studying of Thomas over my life because I went to Jefferson High School, and of all the founding fathers he and Thomas Paine make the most sense! Thanks Jan.

    • 8 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • kennymotown
  • David_H
  • kennymotown
  • Vic_Romano
  • kennymotown
  • Vic_Romano
    • +2
      Vic_Romano  
    • kennymotown:

      I'm sure of that. However, he'd be happy to see that people are FINALLY waking the fuck up and taking it to the streets. After all, "the tree of liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    • 8 months ago
  • kennymotown
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