Gingrich: Palestinians an ‘invented’ people with no right to a state

does it really matter?
has it mattered in determining states or the status of them ever?
the argument of who was there first goes all the way back to abraham.and lord knows that discussion is always helpfull.

Freecrack, I’m replying here to the points you made across several posts rather than replying at each post.

First, you argue that the Palestinians are not a real people by going into religious texts. I’m not gonna go into that because theres no point arguing over texts meant for interpretation rather than historical or anthropological accounts. Besides to argue the creation of the Israeli state is justified by the Zionist take on Jewish texts is to argue road side bombing by Sunni insurgents in Iraq is justified by their take on the Qur’an. Fun fact: car-bombing was first introduced to the Middle East by Zionists to terrorize Palestinians out of their territories.

Second, you then acknowledge the existence of a Palestinian people by accusing them of opening fire first and of being bad sports about being kicked out of their homes, “got pissed about the new owners”. Of course to believe that the Palestinians declared war “on a people” without provocation is completely historically inaccurate. First off, Jews lived all over the Middle East peacefully with Arabs. The way you put it it’s as if Jews came to the ME all of a sudden and the Palestinians just attacked them on a principle of them being a “people”. Second, the establishing of an Israeli state was a bloody matter. Local people were killed, terrorized, and uprooted. Businesses, villages, graveyards were destroyed, remnants of which can still be found today. Anybody who tells you different is a liar. The war of 48 was a response to the brutal and unjust creation of the Israeli state.

Third, you go into a realpolitik approach where might is right. Israel won the wars you mentioned, (its 67 btw, not 69), and so they are justified to their land. All of a sudden religious texts, or conventions (such as Geneva, UN declaration of Human Rights, etc) don’t bear merit, meaning the creation of Israel doesn’t bear merit either. But by the same approach, if might is right and there’s no need to protect the weak, then well Hitler was right. Its horrible to say that but im trying to make a point. Another point you make under this approach is the Zionists fought off the Arabs (who attacked them for the heck of it) all by themselves, “the support of the united states has nothing to do with anything”. This is also incorrect. The army that fought for the creation of Israel was made up of many volunteers from the west. It was funded and supported by Europe’s guilt. The planes used during the six-day-war were given as aid to Israel. Let’s not forget Britain and Frances role in the Suez canal war.

The best rebuke to your point that support didn’t aid Israel comes from another post of yours where you mention that the land itself was stolen by the British from the Palestinians, to whom the British promised the land, and given to Zionists. The Balfour Declaration sounds a lot like support. I don’t have to go into the US’s current unconditional support and the countless UN vetos.

“help the native americans, as a million of them dont get to live welcomed in america as the palestinians do in israel”

Another fun fact. Did you know there is an apartheid in Israel? Arabs living in Israel are treated like second-rate citizens. They get shitty education, hospital, and housing services. They’re not allowed to use certain highways, or enter certain buildings. Also, due to a recent amendment to the Israeli citizenship oath they have to acknowledge their citizenship as a Jewish identity which is humiliating. Also, countless of Palestinians, im talking generations of generations of generations of the original generation to get kicked out of Palestine, have lived and still live in camps under horrible conditions. In fact, “welcoming” Palestinians back is a major problem Israel faces if it was to pursue a two-state solution. The right to return or compensation is one of the conditions Israel does not want to be acknowledge in the peace deal. Also, lets not forget Gaza which was classified by the UN as a “humanitarian crisis”, just before the IDF pummeled in under Operation Cast Lead in 2008.

So now that I’ve pointed out the inconsistencies and contradictions in your points (I don’t mean to do so as a personal attack, just for the sake of debate), I will make a quick point of my own.

A discourse of Israel vs Palestine solves nothing. The issue isn’t a matter of who’s right, the Israelis or the Palestinians. Its not black and white (such an annoying phrase I know). We can’t talk of Israelis as a united body of people who support the same position. The best critique of Israeli government comes from Israel. Likewise we can’t talk the same about Palestinians. Many Palestinians don’t trust Abbas nor Hammas. In fact the PLO has done more damage to Arab states than Israel and is hated by a considerable number of Arabs. Its more an issue of a hawkish Israeli government supported by a misguided lobby in the US vs Arab leaders who do not represent the view of their people and who cannot come up with innovative or effective solutions or approaches, in fact some leader like (Mubarak used to) benefit from the stagnation of the conflict. The only solution to this issue will come from Israeli common people and Palestinian common people working together to get rid of the leaders on both sides. There are several NGO’s, think tanks, and civic centers composed of both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians working together to alleviate wherever they can the harm done by this conflict, to raise awareness, and to bring a solution for this 6 decade conflict. We should follow their lead. Btw, props and thx to whoever read the whole post.

1st please note what is what i said, and what is your inference.

i never ever ever have denied that the palestinians are a people.they are human beings who quite obviously exist, so the very notion that they dont exist is just school yard hate speech void of logic.
at the same time
a palestinian nation, for palestinians, of palestinians,palestinians has never existed.this is a very central point in the history of this conflict.of course the reality is it doesnt matter what the name is of the nation your home is in when you are losing your home.but in the argument that the palestinians have the right to statehood based on previous statehood, this point of them never creating a state is central.

i didnt go into religious texts for that purpose.you are responding to me responding to some one elses use of religious texts to the opposite end.making the case that the land is palestine cuz the bible said so.i was discussing the the inherent falseness of that argument either way.

interesting fact:the jews didnt invent the bagel.it is actualy a hungarian thing if i remember correctly, and had to do with molding dough into a shape like the stirrups on thier leaders horse.yet despite that being the reality it is associated with the jewish peoples due to our excessive obsession with them.kind of like no matter how many times one mentions the stern gang, car bombs will not be associated with them, as those who ritualy use them are another people.

2nd:
israel was created by many different people for many different reasons in many different ways.from the kibbitzim from europe who couldnt hurt a flie.literaly as malaria killed thousands.to the sabra zionist militants who were engaging in a civil war.quite simply in the end it was the jews who through out all of this (including the hebron massacre of 29 u seem to conviniently missed) created a state.the palestinians did not.when the israelis declared to the world that israel is a nation, the response from the palestinians was to vow to destroy it.
not accept that they failed to stop what they wanted to stop.
not to build their own state and rival israel in that manner.
but they declared war.war on people who wether they declared statehood or not already were living where they were living.making the only difference by them declaring war was the desire to no longer destroy some of the jews, but all.
you can rationalize it all you want in any way you want.but the people who chose war are wrong.that is it.

btw living "peacefully" is very subjective.
one could similarly state that the existance between the black man and the white man was very peacefull in south during slavery.cuz the truth is it was peacefull.thanks to brutal oppression denying a people the ability to effect matters thus not engage in conflict of any sort.dhimi law is a peacefull existance similarly.its just the peacefull terms under dhimi law are worse than what the palestinians presently live.but hey it was peace so who cares right?

3rd:my position isnt that might is right.my position is if you wage war you are wrong to begin with.so if you lose that war justice has been served in the face of the forced brutality we all agree we should not resort to.if the israelis in 67 lets say just decided to wage war on the palestinians for no reason what so ever, i would catagorize the israelis as being wrong and the land they aquired ill gotten.but the reality is israel has taken land in wars waged on them, as that is what happens in war.if the palis didnt want to risk the land, they shouldnt have waged war.they are like the guy who starts a bar fight, then tries to take the guy he started shit with to court over knocking out his teeth.the situation the palestinians find themselves in is of their own doing.regretable, but their burden none the less.especialy as they continualy engage in the same methods with the same results and with the same complaining about it.

6 day war?lets not also forget israel was up against every nieghbor, who had been stock piling planes,tanks,and guns from the soviets for the last 20 yrs.you seem to omit a great deal in your history.

4:the british stole the land the same way the ottomans stole the land before them and so one.making what you consider stole the method by who gets the land is recognized.you call it stealing, while the entire rest of the world calls it status quoe.try applying equal standards.
the british promised a lot of things to a t of people.
they promised palestine to the palestinians.
they promised a portion to the jews.
they promised all sorts of crazy shit to the indians.
but they didnt follow through on any of it, leaving it up to the people themselves to make their own futures.
the indians drove them out in the interest of soveriegnty.
the jews drove them out in the interest of soveriegnty.
but the palestinians didnt fight off their occupiers.leaving it to others to get rid of them.they sacrificed their right to independance by not seeking it.not only that, they chose to fight against those who did, rather than sieze the opportunity or themselves.
hence israel is a state, india is a state,and the palestinians not so much.

5:and here is where the truth comes out.you are living in a fantasy world where the rafah border and jordanian borders arent wide open.a fantasy world in wich by some magical property israelis are able to tell the difference between arab jews and palestinians.all the crap you are selling about aparthied and second class citizenship is propaganda, and not even very good propaganda.im not gunna get into every detail cuz this is rediculously long enough as it is, but quite simply let me know when the next exodus of suffering palestinians from israel happens.until then, as has been for the last 40 yrs, the palestinians of israel exist as a testament to israel and their superiority in general social terms, as literaly two palestinian societies exist for them to go to any time they like.and they never leave.oppressed people dont do that.

he is half right, but approached it from the most racist extreme zionist perspective thus ruining any credibility

Funny you should use the word genetic in your suppositions. The only lies put forth are those between Israel and the Arabs, The rest is a concerted effort NOT to cover this problem openly. No one has the cojones to tell the American people what exactly caused 9/11. The truth hurts. We must spare the American people their hurt feelings should we tell them the truth. And if your going to infer that genetics has an effect on ones political persuasion, please keep yours to yourself.

Semper

equaly you can feel free to keep to yourself terrorist apologies, like the idea that anything one can do has a legitimate response of flying planes into buildings

The real world bites don't it?

it sure does.wich is why it is so important to not validate the ideas that make it so.
like if some one does this, you do that.
like if you are pissed, just blow some shit up.

The quote is obviously taken out of context. In 1977 the PLO was participating in a civil war in Lebanon and it was part of what could be called the “left” of the conflict. The rhetoric of the “left” in Lebanon at the time was Unionist, an ideology that sought to unify Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan together into Greater Syria, or just Syria. He’s not saying that the creation of Palestine is a lie, he’s saying the separating of the Palestinian territory from Syria and the other countries mentioned is part of a divide and conquer policy. He’s not questioning the existence of the Palestinian people, he’s questioning their division from all Arab people. What he’s pointing out is, to distinctly put the opposition of Israel upon the Palestinians alone is false because, in his opinion, all neighboring people need to oppose the Israel state and not just the Palestinians. Meaning, the Israeli state is detrimental to all surrounding nations and not just Palestine. And obviously, when the PLO is involving itself in, and to many people is the cause of, the civil war in Lebanon, he’s going to say that the Palestinians, Lebanese, and Syrians are all one and united in opposition to Israel.

Nope, I will not keep mine to myself. Honest liberal is a genetic anomaly, facts are facts. As for the rest, well whatever you think is fine with me.

Whatever. What I have come to find out is that whenever a quote crops up that someone does not agree with it is either "taken out of context", "misspoke", "racist" etc. When someone says, "The Palestinian people does not exist" that is pretty clear. Spin however you wish.

Ha!!! Good Job... =)

No Worries... I Hope that is soon, but take your time... =)

I am not sure where it went... Post a link here... =)

Good Job bailey78... =)

I really hate to quote that book but every now and then I will to prove my point. But hey if they can use it to control the masses I can use it to prove them wrong.

I agree bailey78, they only want to use what parts of it suit their needs from time to time...

you sure you arent reading the contemperary edited version of the old testament?
cuz palestine didnt exist in order to be noted at the time the old testament was written.

insanity when the zionists do it, but not when the palestinians do it?

I read what I read and thats what it said. I don't preach and I don't push. But I read the book and thats what It said. Just as I posted it.

and we could all read missinformation as we spread it as something other than what it is.but we still have the responsability to own what we say regardless of where we sourced it.

in a million years i wouldnt accuse you of preaching.unless a debate on possum cooking came to be.it isnt a matter of you preaching.but claiming something exists when it does not.i could be completely and totaly wrong on this.
but im fairly certain im not, as the old testament was written long before the romans occupied the land.hence jesus being able to serve as fullfillment of its prophecy, as he could not fullfill that wich had yet to be written right?
being as the romans were the first to call the land palestine, it would make it impossible for the actual old testament upon wich one would make ancient claims, could mention a concept not yet created.

this is where i am coming from with this.
like i said i could be wrong.but i dont recall seeing any mention of palestine in the old testament, and i know many christian revisions have come to be all claiming to be the old testament.

that is why i asked

One of the first Christian uses of the term Palestine is found in the works of the Church historian Eusebius, who lived in Caesarea. He wrote around 300 A.D., as the Roman persecution of Christians was ending and the Emperor Constantine began to accept Christianity as legal. Eusebius did not accept Hadrian’s designation of Jerusalem as Aelia Capitalina, but he did use Hadrian’s term Palestine. Eusebius considered himself to be one of the bishops of Palestine. Thus, the anti-Israel, anti-Christian name of Palestine was assimilated into the Church’s vocabulary as the Byzantine Empire was being established.

The Church has, since that time, broadly used the term Palestine in literature and in maps to refer to the Land of Israel. It should be noted, however, that the Crusaders called their land the Kingdom of Jerusalem. When the British received the mandate after World War I, though, they called the land on both sides of the Jordan River, Palestine. This became the accepted geo-political term for several decades, and those who lived in the land were called Palestinians, whether they were Jews, Arabs or Europeans.

Even evangelical Christians who believe in the future of Israel have used the term Palestine. The New Scofield Reference Edition of the Bible has maps in the back entitled “Palestine under the Herods.” There never was a Palestine under the Herods. This is a serious misidentification. It would be something like looking at a modern map of Texas and having it titled “Mexico in the Twentieth Century.”

The MacArthur Study Bible published just last year contains a map called “Palestine in Christ’s Time” There are numerous references in the notes to something called first-century Palestine.

It appears that Bible-believing Christians have either knowingly or unwittingly followed the world, pagans and haters of Israel in calling Israel by the anti-Israel term Palestine. It is found throughout Bible maps, Bible commentaries and textbooks.

Here is what I have found be it true or false it is what was found.............The term Palestine is rarely used in the Old Testament, and when it is, it refers specifically to the southwestern coastal area of Israel occupied by the Philistines. It is a translation of the Hebrew word “Pelesheth.” The term is never used to refer to the whole land occupied by Israel. Before Israel occupied the land, it would be generally accurate to say that the southwestern coastal area was called Philistia (the Way of the Philistines, or Palestine), while the central highlands were called Canaan. Both the Canaanites and the Philistines had disappeared as distinct peoples at least by the time of the Babylonian Captivity of Judea (586 B.C.), and they no longer exist.

I really thing the magic word here is "contemperary edited version". That in itself is just saying it has been changed to meet the needs of those that want things their way. it may not be the truth as it was but what they want the truth to be now.

so the notion that palestine is in the bible comes with the notation it is the christian revised bible as opposed to the original ancient one?

making any link between the phillistine and the palestinians strictly linguistic

YEP! the bible has been rewritten a few times over the years. So who is to say what was changed.

Well I'm just a linguistic kind of guy today.

"So who is to say what was changed."

anyone who reads the sources from wich the material was changed from.
like all the people who have copies of star wars from before george lucas re-edited them with modern cgi.
they get to show us the difference between the original vs the revised.

the old testament known as the torah, is the same writting as what has been unearthed from way back when.making it the closest thing to an original source.that is the basis upon wich one can determine what was edited.

anyone who reads it can say what was changed.just as you and i can tell the kids of today what george lucas changed in star wars.

I really have no idea as I have never read a bible that was not rewritten by someone. I know what has been said and I know what I have read. An to me it is just a book of fairy tales that is used to control man kind nothing more nothing less. Well that and to produce arguements to keep us at war with each other so those that are running the show can do as they wish without question from the peons.

well if you are inclined (and im sure you are not) if you learn hebrew, you can read the closest thing to the unedited version.as the torah itself has not been changed for as long as anyone can tell.
the archialogy matches up perfectly with present day torah.
but those who translate it to enlish have changed what some words mean now.so if you read it in english, what he torah says is "holocaust" is now called "ritual sacrifice".

dont be so limited when it comes to religion.it is not just fairy tales to keep us at war.it is a system by wich the powefull can manipulate the mass's based on faith rather than reason, to what ever end they want.war just being one.

im on ya only cuz you offered the old testament as an ancient example.faith or not, that was the point in using the old testament right?going to the source as it were?

Well Ya got me there. Maybe George Lucas is really the second coming?

You are correct in you thoughts. both at the begining of you comment and the end of your comment.

dont tell me im right, that is just feeding the troll lol me

Oh Ok! Your WRONG I SAY YOUR WRONG!!!! is that better?

much better.damn straight im wrong and dont forget it lol.
is it really so hard for the world to argue as we do?
really?
i mean just a little time getting to know one another and we can argue all day without getting absurd about it.if only world argued on current i guess?

. Ya know what really gets me is the fact that they all claim to be for peace and love. But just say you disagree with them and they want to boil ya in oil or set you on fire or even skin ya alive. I want no part of that kind of god. My Gawd is the kind that sits on the side line and Laughs her ass off at me when I do something stupid. Then sees what i need and points me in that direction and lets me choose what path to take be it right or wrong.
She will give me the tools I need and watches to see if I use them or not.

Ahh shucks I really can't see alot comeing from name calling and mud slinging.

i think it is a matter of the majority being about peace and love, and the hatefull minority who are hatefull regardless of religion, glom onto the peacefull peoples identity to make themselves more than what they are.
i mean its one thing to hate some one or something and have no ability to explain why you feel that way.compared to being hatefull and then finding a means by wich it is valid.for many it is god.

for instance without the skinheads, would all those skinhead kids be productive?or would they be the same trash just without something to gravitate towards?
i say they would still be the same retards.
and i think religious bigots would be the same jerk off's regardless of what excuse they use

well we seem to see things in the same light.

Or as long as we give them billions of bucks and all the militaria they can handle. Otherwise they would of been toast a long time ago. I support the PLO not because Israel is involved, but because any people, not just Palestinians, get kicked out of their homeland have a right to rebel. Just like our own native Americans.

from 48-69 the united states didnt support israel.while israel got attacked by the entire middle east not once but twice.
the support of the united states has nothing to do with anything.

the thing is, the palestinians didnt get kicked out of israel.they declared war on israel.what has resulted since 48 is what happens to any people who seek to destroy another when they fail in that endevour.with the exception that usualy the victorious party will destroy them wich israel hasnt done.

you want to advocate for people forced from their lands?
help the native americans, as a million of them dont get to live welcomed in america as the palestinians do in israel.

the palestinians didnt own shit.that was the problem.others owned it, and sold it to the jews.making it belonging to the jews, while the residents who resided there and didnt own it got pissed about the new owners.

Yeah but thats a old map drawn by somebody that was also old. Hey he might have been on drugs are working for Newt through a time machine or something. Sarcasm on of course :)

OMG that would be perfect!

I thought he was! :)

You mean he's not?

South Park already did an episode about child molesters.

LOL

LOL.

Missing Link Eh'??? =)

Missing link to what?

Perhaps his Head and his Ass????

A chimpanzee with syphyllis?

You mean he does German porn???

Aren't you being a little harsh on syphilis?

Ha!

What? Phyllis Dillar.

Oh no - puhleeez - just the thought of him naked - Nooooooooo!
I have to go to my happy place, or I'll hurl the big mug of hot chocolate I just drank.

Good one!

With that thought in your head, I'm afraid your drink may need to be a bit stronger than cocoa...

that would be rough. Yikes!

My eyes, they burn!!!! ;-)

newt does not have common sense.

.
Since before recorded time through to the present
People have been migrating all over the face of the earth

For most people
Where they are born is home

Under the condition of newts flawed logic
Anyone not first in recorded history to a land is invented
Only
He doesn't know how monumentally stupid that is...

On old maps you will not find Israel either....

Thanks

Did Palestine have a King or was it a parliamentary form of government?

he knows, the problem lies in his arrogance towards the people he wants to rule. Like most political prostitutes he has nothing but contempt for the unwashed masses as portrayed by Reilly the other night. We are not worthy of a reasoned response, just play to the base.

Funny, it looks just like the map I made in grade school when doing a report on Israel. That was about 1963. Of course I hadn't learned by then how Israel became a "state".

Correct, and lets not forget Hawaii...

ya exactly
And why I put the qualification 'world' in my mini screed

Sheeesh you must be smokin' some Killer Bud, cos what you said meant or had very little to do with the conversation... I will be back soon and we can have at it on the same level, does that sound Fair??? =)

Holi krap
You read a fight out of that?

Relax
I can see what you say that I didn't see before