Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk (AGAIN)

Look this isn't a party issue, this started long before this administration.

Never said it was a partisan issue. Nothing in my post says it is a Democrat vs Republican issue. I did not say the Dems were evil for doing this and the answer would be a Republican administration. I said "our administration" and that is when this action happened. You need to read carefully and, more important, understand what you read. Is it your contention that because it was done under any prior administration it is ok to continue. Sounds like that is the case but I don't buy it. This argument has been used regarding virtually everything "our administration" has done or is doing.
Why don't you take a stand and try to put a stop to the behavior rather than trying to excuse it.

i wonder if the cows have a roomate called bubba (LOL)

Oh my, I hope not!

Bessie?!

We've been grabbing at her teats long enough. Free Bessie!

I am not a libertarian, nor am I braindead, if anything your statement could be construed as that of a braindead "liberal" but I wont take it that far, I will simply state that you should know your subject before you judge them

Well educated monsoir, the issue is not as clearly on the FDA's side on this one. Doesn't it seem odd that there even has to be a black market on milk?

I would also like to ask if read the rest of the comments and oppinions presented in this comment thread before you started calling people braindead morons?

Can't argue with liberals. They want more and more control until every aspect of your life is according to them. Either we stop this now or it will escalate.

We are trying not to turn this into a party debate thanks!

Who exactly is mocking who here? --sighs--

Again I say that healthy cows, in a healthy environment, milked with clean and maintained instruments turns these health risks into a negligable concern. The listeria problem comes from dairy sources that are not cared for in an appropriate fashion, just like all the other viral and bacterial problems we come across in our food supplies.

My counter arguement for is that we should then place equal regulatory control on tomatoes because of e coli, we cannot allow the distribution of peanutbutter across state line due to salmonela, no more sales if bacon because of heart disease, no fruit because of toothdecay... the points I could list right here are endless.

thanks for information, I remember eating some raw cookie dough, and became very ill. to this day, I do not eat any thing raw.

Thanks for refering to me as a moron, get a grip on your anger here mate. Perhaps being a bit more rational would help.

I was almost killed, and many did from a bacteria passed on a mass produced food, it's all in production as to wether something becomes CONTAMINATED! Healthy farm, healthy cows, healthy gear, healthy milk. Millenia of human growth and expansion can't be that wrong.

Needing a special tax or prescription to get a twinky or raw milk puts them both in same FDA controlled catagory as marijuana... think on that point.

Long term dietary choices that lead to life long problems are a persons own damned fault... a case of infection (bacterial or viral or even chemical poisoning) in foods being sold is entirely different. Telling people they can't drink raw milk because of a potential for single case infection is not the same as telling idiots who refuse to eat anything other then junk food to pay for your own coverage cause I don't want to is sooooo not the same thing.

If a food is CONTAMINATED it's the fault of the production methods, not the food itself.
If a food is a just a poor dietary choice then it's the CONSUMERS fault.

--edit-- However I COMPLETELYagree with the truth behind your point there... lots of us do need to make a few better choices, and probably even more folks need to make a LOT of better choices...

But you're apparently against the regulation of raw milk, so how is a consumer to know if the producer of the milk has followed procedure in its production? I get your point that these are different scenarios, but if you're removing the protection of a possibly hazardous product, people will consume it, get sick and burden the health care system. I know you don't feel raw milk is a risk, but if you think farmers should be able to sell raw milk, unregulated, and that they won't cut corners in safety for a larger profit, you're naive. Regulate it, test it, sell it - otherwise, get shut down. I think there are plenty of Epidemiologists who would debate you on the dangers of raw milk and its risks as compared to peanut butter or tomatoes, as you suggest. I'm not one of them, but I know people who lived through the '20s and '30s and recall the outbreaks due to drinking raw milk. They didn't start pasteurizing for the fun of it.

Marijuana and industrial hemp are both on my list, but well below the ability to re-create the american middle class, and my rights to the availability of foods that not what is mass produced, in frequently shoddy conditions, stored for god knows how long, shipped thousands of miles in the july heat, chock full of crap ingredients and chemicals... I know listeria can kill, but listeria doesn't come from raw milk, it comes from BAD raw milk.

In this case the consumers would have clearly known the source of their milk would have been unregulated by the government, they would have known they were taking risks. Thats the freedom of choice is it not? Amish farmer, unlabeled jugs, acknowledged as raw milk... if consumer is ignorant thats the consumers fault. This farmer should have gotten fined for selling a product without a business liscence and proper tax records, not arrested for selling milk!

The farmer was arrested after being warned, verbally and in writing. We're going in circles with the "dumb consumer". It goes beyond freedom of choice when public health is at risk.

very interesting, I became lactose intolerant a few years after we quit keeping dairy cows...we had Jerseys (higher fat content). The large dairy operation across the street from me kept Holsteins (higher yield) and he was always treating for hoof disease and mastitis.

I luv that this guy has named his cows and recognizes them!

ty 4 the video leen, deja vu, luved it!

I'm glad you liked the video, Incredulous. I have mixed feelings on this subject, but, like you, I liked this video, too. I like how this guy named his cows and cared about them...no abuse to the cows here. :) I see in your previous post you used to live in WI. Cool!

Great video, healthy farm, healthy cows, healthy milk.

Thanks, The Wanderer.

a little speck of a place called Wilton (between Sparta and Ontario)....people brought the entire family to the bar, there was a little section for the kids, full of toys, right across from the bar stools, and easy chairs for the old folks....not like the South where old women like to brag "evil spirits have never touched these lips!"

One of my dairy farmer friends taught me how to play Spades....we used to sit up all night slinging cards, and then he'd go milk his cows. LOL...beautiful state, wonderful people!

I see you were in the West Central part of WI, not to far from La Crosse. Pretty country out there. Thanks for sharing :)

"...beautiful state, wonderful people!" Thank you, Incredulous. I want to see my state stay that way.

Hmmmm is there a trend here people? We are keeping street vendors a major middle income industry every where else in the world under wraps here?

http://reason.com/archives/2011/12/01/how-the-governments-war-on-street-vendor

Fans of Andrew Zimmern and Anthony Bourdain take note!

i disagree

"Giving unpasteurized milk to children is child abuse."

Let me guess you think giving a baby a bottle that's not BPA free is also child abuse? Or giving a baby food with transfats in it is child abuse? Or maybe you think feeding a baby meat is child abuse? Maybe you think letting a child get into an automobile is child abuse? Automobile accidents kill a LOT of kids and everytime you drive one it's like playing Russian roulette with your life. That's child abuse to subject your kids to a car ride! Isn't it?

This is an Amish community their WHOLE GIMMICK is not wanting to use modern technology. Do you think it's child abuse to raise a child in an Amish community? They want to live without modern inventions and you say "HOW DARE YOU WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY!!! YOU'RE TORTURING YOUR KIDS!!"

If the government had a law on the books in the future mandating that you had to sterilize you doorknobs with a UV light before you turned the knob everytime (as a health thing, since doorknobs carry so much disease AND THEY DO) and the Amish said "we'll pass" would you say THAT'S CHILD ABUSE!!! ?

Do you even know what REAL child abuse is? It's slightly different.

the same ones going through voting down a post about how trees are good.

You don't know how right you are!

when something is obvious there is no way not to see it when your eyes are open

I disagree

Then you're disagreeing with the medical community, not with me.

Its not the first time, won't be the last that I've disagreed with medical community. The "compromised immune systems" I would tend to agree with, but a well tended cow and good well maintained system raw milk risk is very negligable. Healthy environments yield healthy products.

It's been railroaded into a near prohibition like state because it can't be mass produced safely, and thereby not a good market for large coorporations to make money in, but hey if you pasturize and make that the law the little guy is suddenly the one who can't compete and they take over an ENTIRE INDUSTRY with one little sentence in piece of legislation

--edit-- As far as the medical industry; they get samples of cooked milk and raw milk to study and compare objectively. Yeah raw milk will have higher bacterial levels, but the same is true with apples, carrots, potatoes, yada yada yada(that don't get cooked)... So the objective answer from the medical community is that cooked milk (like anything else that gets cooked) has fewer living micro-organisms and therefore consititutes a lower overall risk. The risk is no higher then eating a tomato or mass produced peanutbutter as recent ecoli and salmonella outbreaks should prove.

--2nd edit-- lol which is a logical lead into the small farm movement, cleaner better maintained and overall healthier then mass produced, stored in closets, traveled thousands of miles in july.... ok im just done

--3rd edit-- knowing our government those early samples probably came from the same corporate farm anyhow, just making it a worse disparity between samples. I guess I wasn't done so file a lawsuit --wink--

--sighs--

It is the governments responsibility to it's citizens to protect them from illness as reccommended by the medical community. If one choses to ignore the warnings, it's your right to do so. But if you fall into any category, and I will repeat those categories as another warning to people, children, pregnant women,people with compromised immune systems,the elderly, and you do not head the advice, you do so at your own risk. The FDA would be remiss in it's responsibility to the consuming public to allow that which they know to be a possible threat to the health of so many to cross state lines. Not just remiss in my eyes, but criminally negligent.
Anyone has a right to do whatever they wish, but I for one am not taking risks against my doctor's advice, or the advice of the majority of medical professionals. I grew up on a farm and they are not sterile environments. Especially not Amish farms as in the article. If it were produced in a sterile environment and one that adheres to regulations, I would have no problem with it being produced and sold with a stringent warning about the risks involved.
This farmer did not meet any of those standards.

I agree with what you say about making the risk known, but what your point of making our own choice. The issue here is that raw milk is illegal to sell in some places, it's illegal to drink in some places, it's illegal to produce "for human consumption" in most places... How do you feel about the near prohibition like state it has? How this does infringe on the rights of people, especially those who are rural, or of certain religious groups, or those who are traditionalist" or "rustic" as some want to call them. It's not an over reach of government to react in a fashion that strips so many of these rights. Have you checked in your state to see what the laws state in wether you can sell, consume, or in most cases even produce raw milk? Most don't know it's against the law to harvest with the intent to drink the milk from their own Bessie in the back yard.

--Edit-- if we should not allow it over state lines because it has a risk, we should also outlaw tomatoes, peanutbutter, eggs, bananas, oranges, potatoes? Because eaten raw it carries a risk we should outlaw production of it then we should also outlaw the production of tomatoes, peanutbutter, eggs... have I made my point?

You have made your point. I just disagree with it as you do mine. The public health supersedes alot of those concerns. It's the old collectivism vs individualism argument that will never be resolved in a democratic society with socialist tendencies.

There are similar legislations against raw milk cheeses, sausages, baked goods and many other artisnal small business style products around the country. Vegetables do not not get targeted as frequently because they can be relatively safely produced en masse, have shelf lives that can be stabalized easily and travel well.

Why do you think there is such a large misinformation campaign against organic small farm products right now? They are fighting back against a movement that threatens the market share of major grocery companies in potentially catastrophic fashion!

Well I would have figured a society with socialistic tendancies would support anything that provided room for blue collar small business middle class entrepenurial ship, especially the sorts of wich provide sustenance to the socialistic society.

Most times it would, but not when those entrepenures are endangering the health of their fellow citizens.

Its not any more endangering then the mass produced foods they are allowing us to have? Ecoli, Salmonela, Diptheria, Bouchalism (sp?), diabetes, heart disease...

Humanity flourished on raw milk from countless different animals for millenia...

What was the medium age of death then ? 32?

What was the state of other medical knowledge and treatment, antibiotics, vaccines, proper knowledge of dietary requirementst at that time as well... this is a control issue perpetrated by big business just like all the others ones that openly discussed on this forum, not a health issue.

So which do I need to get my raw milk, cheese, and streetvendor foods? A prescription or a tax stamp?

Just wanted you to know, that you made very valid arguments concerning the issue of raw milk, and I am in total agreement with you, especially your comparisons to the relative "safety" of fruits and vegetables and other foodstuffs as well, in addition to corporations relentless, pursuit of shutting down any and all means of production and consumption of locally produced foodstuffs, under the guise of "public safety" so as to dominate every single thing we do-in this case eating-so as not to interfere with their mega-profits.

Joe, just wanted to let you know I disagree with you on this one, but before I would even go deeply into why I disagree, (I Agree with everything the wanderer said, but I have a little different health angle issue here) I thought it would be more polite if I asked you if you want to hear why, before I want into anything further, thanks.

I live in the middle of Amish country and even most of them buy milk in the grocery store. But there are farms all over this state for those who wish to buy raw milk products. Right next door in New jersey as well. Don't believe me, google raw milk products in Pa. and up they will pop. Those who wish to ignore government recommendations can easily do so and buy raw milk.
This is becoming an extremely esoteric argument. I have told you my objections and you have done the same. I appreciate the FDA efforts to protect the public health . Others believe there are ulterior motives on the part of the FDA. Whatever the argument, I will not go against the MEDICAL communities advice without proof that they are wrong. I will also not encourage those who may be at risk to foolishly and needlessly jeopardize their health You are not going to change your mind and I'm not going to change mine.
This is particularly interesting since I do not consume any dairy products, having switched to soy products years ago under the advice of my surgeon after 2 very nasty intestinal and colon surgeries. Having come very close to death, I'm not playing theoretical games with my health or other's health.

See my last reply to Wanderer.

I so entirely appreaciate your possition from that stand point. I was exposed to a bacterial outbreak a few years back, it affected a few hundred people across the country. The bacteria is known a H. Pylori. It acts on the digestive track in a fashion very similar to drinking a potent acid or alkali. I had "ulcerations" the size of my palm, over two dozen of them ranging from the top of my stomach clear through my lower GIT. I lost about 75lbs and nearly died. The source that spread this outbreak was never found, the media never made a peep about this outbreak, people died. This outbreak like most nowadays was nationwide which means the only plausible explaination is bacterial colonies were present on some product that gets mass produced and sold nationwide. This is why I am so adamant about our rights to choose what we eat... I don't care if someone eats twinkies, primerib, or fois gras... but I think it is the pinacle of injustice for someone else to tell us we can't' eat, produce, or sell foodstuffs that have been a staple of humanity as far back as an historian or anthropologist can tell.

To me this story represents nothing more then softest side of fascism, caused by coorporate greed controling the real decision makers in this great plutocracy... I know I am getting preachy, but this is probably one of the closest issues to my heart.

V, its just so damned insidious...

In some places it is illegal to drink, in some states it is illegal to sell, in some states it is illegal to produce for the purpose of "human consumption"... in almost all it is illegal to transport across state lines... to me that looks like control... to me that seems like someone is making sure their potential competitition is stuck to a smaller market.