Community | October 07, 2012 | 250 comments

Explaining Socialism To A Republican! If they would actually listen....

source: http://www.wwrl1600.com/Explaining-Socialism-To-A-Republican/12675399

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kennymotown

http://www.wwrl1600.com/Explaining-Socialism-To-A-Republican/12675399

Good article for your perusal!



By Nurse Pam
addictinginfo.org

I was talking recently with a new friend who I’m just getting to know. She tends to be somewhat conservative, while I lean more toward the progressive side.

When our conversation drifted to politics, somehow the dreaded word “socialism” came up. My friend seemed totally shocked when I said “All socialism isn’t bad”. She became very serious and replied “So you want to take money away from the rich and give to the poor?” I smiled and said “No, not at all. Why do you think socialism mean taking money from the rich and giving to the poor?

“Well it is, isn’t it?” was her reply.


I explained to her that I rather liked something called Democratic Socialism, just as Senator Bernie Sanders, talk show host Thom Hartman, and many other people do. Democratic Socialism consists of a democratic form of government with a mix of socialism and capitalism. I proceeded to explain to her the actual meaning terms “democracy” and “socialism”.

Democracy is a form of government in which all citizens take part. It is government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society.

Of course when people hear that term, “Share the wealth” they start screaming, “OMG you want to rob from the rich and give it all to the poor!” But that is NOT what Democratic Socialism means.

To a Democratic Socialist, sharing the wealth means pooling tax money together to design social programs that benefit ALL citizens of that country, city, state, etc.

The fire and police departments are both excellent examples of Democratic Socialism in America. Rather than leaving each individual responsible for protecting their own home from fire, everyone pools their money together, through taxes, to maintain a fire and police department. It’s operated under a non-profit status, and yes, your tax dollars pay for putting out other people’s fires. It would almost seem absurd to think of some corporation profiting from putting out fires. But it’s more efficient and far less expensive to have government run fire departments funded by tax dollars.

Similarly, public education is another social program in the USA. It benefits all of us to have a taxpayer supported, publicly run education system. Unfortunately, in America, the public education system ends with high school. Most of Europe now provides low cost or free college education for their citizens. This is because their citizens understand that an educated society is a safer, more productive and more prosperous society. Living in such a society, everyone benefits from public education.

When an American graduates from college, they usually hold burdensome debt in the form of student loans that may take 10 to even 30 years to pay off. Instead of being able to start a business or invest in their career, the college graduate has to send off monthly payments for years on end.

On the other hand, a new college graduate from a European country begins without the burdensome debt that an American is forced to take on. The young man or woman is freer to start up businesses, take an economic risk on a new venture, or invest more money in the economy, instead of spending their money paying off student loans to for-profit financial institutions. Of course this does not benefit wealthy corporations, but it does greatly benefit everyone in that society.

EXAMPLE American style capitalistic program for college: If you pay (average) $20,000 annually for four years of college, that will total $80,000 + interest for student loans. The interest you would owe could easily total or exceed the $80,000 you originally borrowed, which means your degree could cost in excess of $100,000.

EXAMPLE European style social program for college: Your college classes are paid for through government taxes. When you graduate from that college and begin your career, you also start paying an extra tax for fellow citizens to attend college.

Question - You might be thinking how is that fair? If you’re no longer attending college, why would you want to help everyone else pay for their college degree?

Answer - Every working citizen pays a tax that is equivalent to say, $20 monthly. If you work for 40 years and then retire, you will have paid $9,600 into the Social college program. So you could say that your degree ends up costing only $9,600. When everyone pools their money together and the program is non-profit, the price goes down tremendously. This allows you to keep more of your hard earned cash!

Health care is another example: If your employer does not provide health insurance, you must purchase a policy independently. The cost will be thousands of dollars annually, in addition to deductible and co-pays.

In Holland, an individual will pay around $35 monthly, period. Everyone pays into the system and this helps reduce the price for everyone, so they get to keep more of their hard earned cash.

In the United States we are told and frequently reminded that anything run by the government is bad and that everything should be operated by for-profit companies. Of course, with for-profit entities the cost to the consumer is much higher because they have corporate executives who expect compensation packages of tens of millions of dollars and shareholders who expect to be paid dividends, and so on.

This (and more) pushes up the price of everything, with much more money going to the already rich and powerful, which in turn, leaves the middle class with less spending money and creates greater class separation.

This economic framework makes it much more difficult for average Joes to ”lift themselves up by their bootstraps” and raise themselves to a higher economic standing.

So next time you hear the word “socialism” and “spreading the wealth” in the same breath, understand that this is a serious misconception.

Social programs require tax money and your taxes may be higher. But as you can see everyone benefits because other costs go down and, in the long run, you get to keep more of your hard earned cash!

Democratic Socialism does NOT mean taking from the rich and giving to the poor. It works to benefit everyone so the rich can no longer take advantage of the poor and middle class.
  1. groups:
    Community,   News and Politics,   WTF,   US Politics,   26 more
  2. tags:
    Education,  Socialism,  Student Loans,  Spreading the Wealth
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250 comments // Explaining Socialism To A Republican! If they would actually listen....

  • jsayler
    • 0
      jsayler  

    • The republicans have been taking over every aspect of pritvate lives of laqte and the think democrats are somehow the evil-doers. Wow (think a Chris Waltkin type wow, here). They are trying to take over everything and reduce the publc domain of privacy none less than every woman's vagina.

      Republicans take over and its called conservatism; democrats try to assist Main Street and they are communists. What matters is that we have so many Santorum not-smart whities out there that carry their bigotry in their pockets only half-way hidden and half declared. All is bad that does not favor all-white "capitalism" as defined by the republican party. True capitalism would NOT allow all the favoratism that big business now receives.

    • 7 months ago
  • Paratus
  • kennymotown
  • SIBob
    • +2
      SIBob  
    • kennymotown:

      Christians use the part of the Bible that suits them at any given moment. (It isn't too hard, it goes from one extreme to the other. Feed the multitudes over here, sacrifice a son over there, and everything in between.)

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
  • SIBob
    • 0
      SIBob  
    • Gravity_Man:

      I was referring to how Christians use their "system", not the other way around. And just because I have a criticism does not mean it is necessarily a "smear". American Christians feel free to condemn aspects of our society and our politics so they should be able to take it in return.

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
  • SIBob
  • kennymotown
  • jsayler
  • jsayler
    • 0
      jsayler  
    • Gravity_Man:

      We do not need to buy our religion. If we carry it in our hearts, it will be enough. We will do unto others as we wish others to do unto us. We will not judge others, lest we be judged. We will be our brother's keeper should our brother necessitate assistance.

      White shirts" are not allowed at my door. As a woman of power, I will not accept any man telling me anything about me. I shall choose my own path and, so long as my path does not cause harm to others, I shall remain on my path until I achieve success in my mission of life.

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
  • SIBob
    • 0
      SIBob  
    • Gravity_Man:

      There is a fifth dimension beyond those known to man. It is a dimension vast as space and timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between the pit of his fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area called the Twilight Zone

    • 7 months ago
  • SIBob
  • jsayler
    • 0
      jsayler  

    • No GOPer can be convinced that Socialism does not equal Communism. Republican base is undereducated, bigoted mean mass of individuals being led to the river to drown.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • COMMONSENSEFORCOMMONGOOD_COM
    • 0
      COMMONSENSEFORCOMMONGOOD_COM  

    • One convinced against their will, is one unconvinced still!

      But when it comes to Republicans, it helps us remain sane if we recall science says they have limited brain and reasoning powers, compared to non Republicans. Who's the more unreasonable, the mentally challenged who are incapable of understanding, or those who insist on continuing to try and make them do what they're incapable of?

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
    • -2
      Mishima [removed]  
    • COMMONSENSEFORCOMMONGOOD_COM:

      Pseudo-science. The basic operant definitions on which the vapid studies are based are not valid for starters.

      Next, socialism appears to the fearful and insecure. Look at what the major premise of it promises: Guarantees of security, safety and comfort. It promises that one never has to worry about getting sick, becoming senescent, losing a job, having a spouse abandon one. Heck, socialist Leftist GOVERNMENT will even take care of one's children! Grandpa is pissing his pants? Call the GOVERNMENT social worker and put him in a GOVERNMENT paid-for home!

      Yes, socialism.....

    • 7 months ago
  • WalmartRamen
  • fiberbundle
    • +1
      fiberbundle  

    • Socialism=Social Security, Labor organizing laws and unions, Medicare, Medicaid, all public education, our national Park system, public roads, public health, Tarp for GE, bailouts for GM, agriculture subsidies for farmers, veterans' benefits, earned income tax credit, progressive taxation schemes, the income tax, rural electrification, universal phone service. . . . .

      I have never heard an elected Republican define a bright line test of what is socialism the good kind and what is socialism which is a code for "you are a Bolshevik enemy of the United States".

      They can't--just like when you try to pin them down on how much regulation is "too much regulation" or how big can government get before its"too big"?

      And there's the greased pig again---you find out that their slogans are just meaningless words meant to accuse their political enemies of nothing more than not buckling under to their demands. Talking to a Republican on this matter, would indeed be like expecting an intelligent response from a pig. (That really only applies to these recently elected idiots who don't think governing is a job--the Congress--to them --is merely a stage--for their personal ideological passion plays).

      War on religion? Jesus was a socialist. What the Hell do you think "The Beatitudes" are?
      What do you think the "Seven Pillars of Islam" are? Judaism requires wealth reapportionment by the law of Moses.

      The only people who don't get it arethe godless atheist, Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • bandikoot
    • +4
      bandikoot  

    • Very well stated. I really wish conservatives would swallow their pride and THINK about these ideals, yet those who have really are too selfish and greedy to give even 1 dollar more than they have to, thus, the lower taxes and loopholes for the higher wage earners.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • Mishima
    • -4
      Mishima [removed]  
    • bandikoot:

      "those who have really are too selfish and greedy to give even 1 dollar more than they have to, thus, the lower taxes and loopholes for the higher wage earners."

      You did not listen to what Romney said, did you? Unfortunate.

      You do not know how Reagan got more from the "evil rich" by lowering taxes and closing loopholes, do you? Unfortunate.

    • 7 months ago
  • hombre76
  • OlBlue
  • JLaughbon
    • +2
      JLaughbon  
    • Mishima:

      What Conservatives are you talking about? You don't even understand that term.

      'Thinking' involves things like Science.

      Seriously, do you just come here to waste everyone's time?

    • 7 months ago
  • JLaughbon
  • Mishima
  • noxidereus
  • Mishima
  • crabbyoldguy
    • -4
      crabbyoldguy  

    • Doo-be-doo-be-doo, well now let's not over look the great socialist experiment here in the US, yes kiddies I'm going to reference the US prison system. Got your free education system, got your free health care, got your feed, you can work if you want or just kick back and stroll the yard. Everyone gets the same choice of shoes, underwear, pants and shirt, sounds pretty sweet eh ? So who is running these wonderful places where all the residents can be soooo social you ask, that's a very good question and I'm glad you asked it, that would be the state and federal governments with assistance and a little prodding from those wonderful public union folks(look deep behind the curtain of those opposing more lenient sentencing guidlines and you will see their beady eyes shining in the dark), but unions are suppose to represent the socially struggling "worker" against the "evil" capitalist pigs so what happened here. Another good question, it appears that the social unions need to repress some in order to increase their power base and wealth, don't seem right does it ? So I guess we need to keep folks away from these evil socialist prisons.

      I know we can have a program that builds housing and another to provide funds for those that need/want to utilize them (we can call them "social projects" or gettos) all the folks within will have access to food, housing, education and healthcare, sweet lord all mighty how can a plan like this fail, dang you are asking a lot of good questions today. Well let's study on this a bit, some in this wonderful environment will want more than the "program" provides so they set about acquiring funds to supplement what they are recieving, let's say by taking resources from someone else or thru the selling of those illegal narcotics to their fellow inmates, err residents, of the community in order to get those sick kicks. Well we will fix their wagon, you say, we will put their butts in prison.

      (:0

    • 7 months ago
  • WalmartRamen
  • letsliveinpeace
    • +4
      letsliveinpeace  

    • Bill Maher has the best metaphor for the GOP, The Bubble. Nothing can get through the Bubble to disturb their skewed world view. They're impervious to any reality what so ever. It is sad to see so many people cutting themselves off. Kinda reminds me of the Who's rock opera "Tommy". They are deaf, dumb and blind and that is how they like it.

    • 7 months ago
  • kennymotown
    • +6
      kennymotown  

    • Although I'd rather debate a LIVE pig than any right wing Fascist nut, the problem with debating these righty's is the constant Intellectual Dishonesty and Bloviating beyond the pale. I like that word, it really does define many of them.

      Bloviate:

      This word — meaning to speak pompously — is almost entirely restricted to the United States; it doesn’t appear in any of my British English dictionaries, not even the big Oxford English Dictionary or the very recent New Oxford Dictionary of English. Yet it has a long history.
      It’s most closely associated with U S President Warren Gamaliel Harding, who used it a lot and who was by all accounts the classic example of somebody who orates verbosely and windily. It’s a compound of blow, in its sense of “to boast” (also in another typical Americanism, blowhard), with a mock-Latin ending to give it the self-important stature that’s implicit in its meaning.
      The word is actually much older than Harding; Fred Shapiro of the Yale Law School has recently turned up several examples from the middle of the last century, such as this one from the Debates and Proceedings of the Convention for the Revision of the Constitution of the State of Ohio in 1851: “The bloviators attempt to disturb the proceedings of this Convention”. This and other examples suggest it was at first a local word in Ohio, Harding’s home state. Bloviate may be a back-formation from the noun bloviation. This would fit with the US fashion in the early nineteenth century for expansive mock-Latinate words like sockdolager, hornswoggle and absquatulate.
      There’s a gap in the citation record in the middle years of this century. The word only began to be used again in the 1960s, even then at first always in reference to Harding. This may be linked with a number of biographies of him that appeared about that time. The word only returned to any sort of regular use in the nineties.

    • 7 months ago
  • Leen61
  • kennymotown
  • fiberbundle
    • 0
      fiberbundle  
    • kennymotown:

      I like your PIG analogy. Some 4H youngsters might remember how difficult it is to catch a "greased pig". I know that thought occurred to me when I watched Romney dodge and turn and give Obama the slip in the first debate.

      I think Joe Biden will take a different approach with Ryan. Figuratively, he won't try and catch the PIG--he'll just shoot it.

    • 7 months ago
  • letsliveinpeace
  • Leen61
    • +6
      Leen61  

    • Great post, kenny. But as mitekillem said, if it were only this simple to explain to Conservatives. They are so set in their beliefs and I witness that myself. You can't talk to them.

    • 7 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • Leen61
  • MSII
    • +2
      MSII  
    • Leen61:

      That's the simple truth of it, it's not politics to these people, it's not about any kind of rationality it's all part&parcel of their (snake-handling) "true religion", it's all "beliefs". There's good reason these people are increasingly called tea-vangelicals....

    • 7 months ago
  • Leen61
  • mitekillem
    • +5
      mitekillem  

    • Awesome post!
      If only it were that simple to explain it to Conservatives.

      The other day I had an experience talking with a woman, whom I'd met just that night. Her husband was serving overseas in the war, and the topic of the election came up; as did the term "Socialism".
      She was shocked by my nonchalant, "yeah....so?".
      It then went in to her ranting about how Obama is evil, and wants to steal money for the rich, how he's not even a US citizen, and that the lazy poor sit on their asses and drive up the deficit, while her husband is overseas fighting for them to be poor and sit on their asses, and how some "people" hate the military.

      -I didn't really get the chance to participate in that conversation. I mostly listened, and it left the woman in tears. ...so I figured the best thing to do was to change the subject. I asked her to tell me about her husband, since he wasn't there for me to get to know - and to get her mind on something more positive.

      I learned some troubling things from this encounter, but it wasn't the first time I've seen this.

      1. Conservatives tend to be passionate people. They use their gut and their reptilian brain rather than rationalizing things out.

      2. They also tend to use the same compartment for Politics that they use for Religion. -Since people tend to feel emotionally attached to their religious beliefs, they believe in their political beliefs religiously. And as you may have noticed, when a debate over religion comes up, people feel that THEY THEMSELVES are under attack if you question their beliefs.

      3. When arguing/debating with conservatives they don't stay on topic.
      While it might be a tactic to confuse people and to keep themselves in the right by changing the topic rapidly and quickly. This prevents correction and logical debate because no singular topic is touched on long enough to expound upon.

      4. Conservatives tend to view the world as a dark and threatening place.
      They have no idea who their enemies are, but they are there...and it's always "Them". This ties back into the Reptilian Brain which simple programing is the Fight or Flight response. This is why they tend to see things in Black and White, Wrong or Right, Left Wing or Right Wing, Capitalism = Good/ Socialism = Bad.
      They're threatened by people more educated and intelligent than they are. They call them "elites".

      Pulling them out of their dark and foreboding view of the world takes some patience and care. You have to keep from damaging their ego, be careful not to tread on their beliefs, and thus provoking emotional responses which will send them into a downward spiral of immediate mistrust and broken-record talking points; then if you've successfully done this, you have to illustrate your points using small words and pictures that in a manner that can't possibly be threatening or offensive in any way.

      Pretend you're speaking to a 10 year old. It's the simplest and closest analogy I can think of.
      Unfortunately, even after explaining things to them, if they're told otherwise, over and over again they will remit and start believing what they hear often, versus figuring it out for themselves, or remembering how you explained it.

    • 7 months ago
  • kennymotown
  • Leen61
  • MSII
    • +2
      MSII  
    • mitekillem:

      Well said, well written, agree 100% Most like talking to 10 year olds (or younger really, the ones that put their hands over their ears and just keep shouting NO!).

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
    • -4
      Mishima [removed]  
    • mitekillem:

      I hear AFN sometimes. Heard an interesting blurb today. The commentator was speaking on behalf of the military, and the Commander is (unfortunately) Obummer, so he was obviously being very careful.

      The interviewer asked him about the military and voting.

      He said, "Well, President Obama's approval by the military, based on those who will vote for him, has gone up 2% since the 2008 election..... To TWENTY-SIX PERCENT!"

      I laughed out loud when I heard that!

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • wolfess
    • +6
      wolfess  
    • Mishima:

      Now there you go again -- all parts of your comment have been disproven many times, and yet you insist on going back to your 'comfort zone' and deny what is really true. Wouldn't you like to venture off Fantasy Island at least occasionally -- just to see what reality has to offer?

      Pwr 2 the SOCIALIST VA peons! GUILLOTINE MEDIOCRITY!

    • 7 months ago
  • mitekillem
  • Mishima
  • cmdinc
  • sugarmountian
  • kennymotown
  • grhd1972
    • -2
      grhd1972  

    • Yet europeans do anything they can to get to the U.S. to get our private higher education and our privatized health care. Even europeans know that socialized health care and higher education is crap.

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
  • Mishima
    • -5
      Mishima [removed]  
    • Gravity_Man:

      YOU ARE RIGHT!

      Let's have a look to see how right you are. Following are dead Americans buried in Europe:

      1. The American Cemetery at Aisne-Marne, France.. A total of 2289

      2. The American Cemetery at Ardennes , Belgium .A total of 5329

      3. The American Cemetery at Brittany, France .A total of 4410

      4. Brookwood , England American Cemetery. A total of 468

      5. Cambridge , England .. 3812

      6. Epinal , France American Cemetery. A total of 5525

      7. Flanders Field , Belgium .. A total of 368

      8. Florence , Italy . A total of 4402

      9. Henri-Chapelle , Belgium . A total of 7992

      10. Lorraine , France . A total of 10,489

      11. Luxembourg , Luxembourg. A total of 5076

      12. Meuse-Argonne. A total of 14246

      13. Netherlands , Netherlands . A total of 8301

      14. Normandy , France . A total of 9387

      15. Oise-Aisne , France . A total of 6012

      16. Rhone , France . A total of 861

      17. Sicily , Italy. A total of 7861

      18. Somme , France . A total of 1844

      19. St.. Mihiel , France . A total of 4153

      20. Suresnes , France . a total of 1541
      ------------------------------------------------------
      The count is 104,366 dead brave Americans.

      Remind those of our sacrifice and don't confuse arrogance with leadership.

      Apologize to no one.

      And we have to watch an American elected leader who apologizes to Europe and the Middle East that our country is "arrogant"!

      HOW MANY FRENCH, DUTCH, ITALIANS, BELGIANS AND BRITS ARE BURIED ON OUR SOIL, DEFENDING US AGAINST OUR ENEMIES?

      WE DON'T ASK FOR PRAISE ... BUT WE HAVE ABSOULUTELY NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!!

      THINK ABOUT THIS.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • Mishima
  • kennymotown
  • Mishima
  • alexandrekBack
  • alexandrekBack
  • alexandrekBack
  • mitekillem
    • +1
      mitekillem  
    • Mishima:

      Thinking that you never have to apologize is arrogance.
      You obviously feel that the US should never have to apologize.
      Therefore you obviously don't know the meaning of arrogance.

      Also, how many of these dead were active military, and not just US Citizens living abroad?

    • 7 months ago
  • mitekillem
    • 0
      mitekillem  
    • Mishima:

      I'm certain that if someone from the Westboro Baptist Chruch "write about American Soldiers who died in Europe, fighting for freedom" it would still get voted down, because it's the CONTEXT in which you use the words, not the words themselves which hold power.
      The fact that you cannot see the difference is very revealing to your lack of education.

    • 7 months ago
  • hombre76
  • Mishima
  • Mishima
  • Mishima
  • JLaughbon
    • +1
      JLaughbon  
    • Mishima:

      Please, stop outright lying.

      I lived in Europe for 10 years. I Married a German, so I have personal experience in this matter. There are no lines for care, no black market. I had friends that used the public system there because the military systems didn't have the expertise of the German hospitals. My wife and I went to doctor visits often...no waiting...no lines...no fees. You are spinning a web of lies in order to support your already fragile position on this topic.

      I've never had the urge to want to block or ignore anyone more than you. And I've chatted on Yahoo, which is full of toothless bigots. I have no time for liars who waste my time. I did find your other posts thought provoking, even spirited, but now you've moved to a different realm. I can honestly say that I'm glad you don't live in this country. Please do not return, you are unwelcome.

    • 7 months ago
  • JLaughbon
  • Mishima
    • 0
      Mishima [removed]  
    • JLaughbon:

      I paid cash for treatment. A Vienese friend told me that if I wanted more personalized treatment without the hours and hours and hours and hours of waiting that I had already experienced, I could pay a doctor cash. I did. Two or three times.

      You were in the military there it seems. BIG difference between that and HAVING to live TOTALLY on the local economy with absolutely no possibility of going to the base to get any help or any kind. Completely different.

      The times I went to a doctor were horrendous. I once walked out because the wait was at least 3 hours. That is because it is free.

      The medical care is good, mind you. Not as good as America, of course, but good.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
    • 0
      Mishima [removed]  
    • JLaughbon:

      Over a year ago, I was in the Narita Airport. I picked up a Newsweek and saw the cover. I actually laughed out loud. The lead article was what country has the best medical care in the world. I looked inside.

      It was Japan.

      What was ironic was that I was in the airport because I was traveling to the United States - getting the f... out of Japan - to have surgery that I could have had in Japan for lower cost. I knew that the medical treatment was far superior in America......

    • 7 months ago
  • Varex_Sythe
  • grhd1972
    • 0
      grhd1972  

    • Hahahahahahahah. Ya. The europeans social programs and horrible economic policies are why the majority of europe is about to be bankrupt.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • hombre76
    • 0
      hombre76  
    • Mishima:

      "They have lost the will to defend their countries from the Muslim hordes that are massing in their countries."

      WOW! Mish, that is a wopper of a bigot spout you got there.

      "Heck, in England, they have to downplay the Holocaust in schools because it "offends" Muslims."

      Why would they be offended? The Holocaust was carried out by white Europeans. So that must be another one of your outright lies.

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • hombre76
  • JLaughbon
  • Mishima
  • youngdebater
  • Gravity_Man
  • youngdebater
  • alexandrekBack
    • +4
      alexandrekBack  

    • Socialism in 4 words
      "the right to decency"
      Any workers should win enough to have a decent life for him and his family,
      to afford a roof, 3 meals a day, healthcare and a good education for his children.
      we like our 3 8 in France, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of rest and 8 hours of what u want, sprot, family etc

      it's far below the American dream, far below any candidates promise!

    • 7 months ago
  • Mishima
  • JLaughbon
  • alexandrekBack
  • MSII
  • Mishima
  • Mishima
    • -1
      Mishima [removed]  
    • JLaughbon:

      "If rights were 'natural' everyone would have them.

      As I wrote, please read the Constitution. On paper with type of typical size, it is only 10 pages. Free on line, too. I know Left-wingers like "free" stuff, especially when it is from the government.

    • 7 months ago
  • JLaughbon
  • JLaughbon
  • Mishima
    • 0
      Mishima [removed]  
    • JLaughbon:

      That is simply not true, and if you read the DoI and Constitution you will see for yourself.

      The important word is "secure." This is not mincing words. The Founders chose each and every word carefully, debating every word and sentence. Brilliant men.

      The word is important - ESSENTIAL - to understanding the very core of the Constitution and what was established. By "secure," it means to "secure" what is there. One cannot secure something that is not yet in existence.

      That refers to our Natural Rights. The Founders assumed that there are natural rights. They did not debate this (except for two, but only a little about the importance, etc.). These rights EXIST. Governments may or may not SECURE them.

      In order to accept the fundamental premises of the Constitution, one HAS TO understand that. Read the Preamble to the Constitution. It is right there. And it IS essential. If you really consider what you are saying, you are actually denying the fundamental principles on which our country were founded.

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
  • JLaughbon
    • +1
      JLaughbon  
    • Gravity_Man:

      I'm not a betting man, and I'm also going to violate the very idea I am putting fourth, but it needs to be said.

      If God hates anything, it's when people assume they know what he is thinking. Or when people use him for an excuse to be bigoted or cruel.

      It's likely there is a special place in Hell for those folk.

    • 7 months ago
  • Gravity_Man
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