I hope you're mistaken, but agree that soldiers are not the way to make peace.

what is sad is that folks such as yourself assure more if it occurs, as you support those who place shildren in conflicts, not blame them as you should.

Indeed. This is one of those rare times where you and I agree.

as usual from a current member who is new?

not that new.

I don't know why Israeli is so blown up to be all mighty!
They where the ones that turned in Jesus to be crucified!

well they didnt, that would be the romans, and what you are really going for is mixing israel with the jews, in an attempt at classic antisemitism.

maybe stick to stormfront or youtube comment boxes if this is the level of "clever" you are going to work with fucktard

You are correct that your timeline is more accurate than my source, but which of many atrocities against the Palestinian people began the escalation, has little to so with the current situation. As usual trut falls well short of truth.

no clearly they arent, as the palestinians have no choice but to react, as you suppose them to be nothing more than animals not human beings able to think.

but keep being angry at israel, not the guys who demand the war, as you soft peddle racism (accidently or not) helping nothing

I agree. While there is fault to be found on both sides, the Israeli government could put the peace process back on track instantly, if they stopped taking Palestinian lands with illegal settlements.

Every now and again you and I agree 100% on something.

I agree. Israel is clearly gunning for a one-state solution.

despite them supporting a two state solution for decades and signed onto one in the united nations huh?

Yep, an Arab-free Muslim-free Palestinian-free nation that includes all the territories and a large part of Lebanon and Syria...

That would be wonderful. If only it could be done.

sure the military industrial complex benefits from the ongoing conflict, but who are we kidding they sell in peace times too.

who cant survive in peace is hamas, who like all the regions leaders take control by using the fear of others.whether it was qadaffi making it tribal fears to divide the people, or the saddam/ayatolla sunni shia play, it is all the same.

and peace would mean hamas would actually have to do the governance they were placed in the position to do, when they know full well they have no interest in doing so at all.just as arafat didnt before them and so on.

The exact same thing could be said about the Likud.

as is true for the republicans who never met a war they didnt want to wage, but that is the neat thing about democracy and free societies is that they dont get to just go ahead and do that.in the case of hamas, it would be as if the republicans were the government, entirely, and their were no restrictions on them so they could do as they pleased.

that is the problem.

no one is so foolish as to think their is ever a society that doesnt have warmongers, or fear riddled people who will appease them.of course every society has them, it comes with the territory.

the thing is some of us let the fear mongers rule us, and others do not.

in israel likud no matter how over the top brutal they may be, they are still subject to what other parties want, and public opnion as they all need to get reelected.this isnt the case with hamas.

dont get me wrong.im sure if likud had the parameters they would be identical to hamas.

but the reality is those parameters are there, making them very different.

Funny, that is the same exact thing my husband said. Who is also Israeli.

Is that some type of propaganda taught in Israel. I mean it is almost the same verbiage. Except he used Arafat where you used Hamas.

LOL

I do agree with your point though. War is good for Hamas.

That's just a given. It's human nature.

As someone who lives thousands of miles away, though, I just want to know who are the profiteers off of this ongoing conflict. As I implied above, the people who advocate for a nonviolent resolution to all of this just don't get any attention.

It's easy to point fingers and find faults on both sides.

What's a little more difficult is pointing out the interests who want to keep this thing going. Whether that be Iran or the United States and their respective support for both sides or the financiers operating behind the scenes, I want to know more about the "shadow" forces. During the cold war, that part of the world was just a testing ground for superpower weapons. Now, the lines have been blurred a bit more. But to say that there aren't outside strategic interests who want this to keep going is just naive.

Either way, if my country is going to be continuously involved in this bloodshed, then I should at the very least know all the facts as opposed to just one side's view. Even more concerning to me is the thought of this madness spreading throughout the region.

I get the sense that our involvement over there is one of the primary reasons why terrorists want to come over here and kill us. And I'm sick of this national security state shit here.

I don't think I'm alone in my sentiment that my tax dollars should not be used to perpetuate killing or violence or even animosity anywhere in the world. There's just no reason why we can't be focusing on feeding, educating and healing people instead of this continued violence.

It has to end sometime.

The entire country was paid for by the United States. No surprize to me.

you are certainly not typical of most Americans ;-)

The Bush darksiders. Obviously.

lol, i dont know what is taught in israel, but i know i was not taught this in my zionist institutions.

they teach simply that the arabs are savages and that is that.no socialogical inspection required.

it was when i learned objectively about how tyrants manipulate matters to maitian order, that i noticed hamas is the textbook example.

in reality it is no different than hussien,qadaffi,or asaad.

all blame a third party for their peoples woes, as if they are trying real hard for the people, but its those other guys who keep screwing them.

it is why when the lybians rose up against qadaffi his only response was to say "its al-queda"

it is all they know how to do, in the blueprint created by the 3rd riech.whos middle men ended up in the middle east after the war.too important to go back to europe but not important enough to make it to south america with eichman and so on.

thousands of mid level troops, indocrinated just enough to spread nazism and its methodology to their new homes, the middle east who took them in and openly admit it.

they get plenty of attention, just not from the western media who doesnt think it can sell it.

you are right laying blame is easy, but doing it correctly isnt and in this regard i know i have got it right.

take israeli policy and apply it any place in the world, and then try it with palestinian policy?

being as israel demands the destruction of no one, and as proven by jordan,syria,and egypt, they can and will live in peace.the palestinians have waged war with everyone, and in their demand to destroy others, their can be no peace.

as far as our involvement goes, dude, we arent talking about rational people.im not saying all muslims,arabs, or palestinians arent rational, but specifically the ones you cite who like to fly things into other things to their death.these are not rational acts, so you cant find a rational solution to them.

it isnt like all the aid we give them balances it out to protect us.shit we literally prop up pakistan, and watched as pakistanis ran behind united states aid trucks giving ut food after they had their most recent disaster, to which they still hid bin ladens ass from us.

it has nothing to do with what we actually do or dont do.it is all based on lies anyway.

their is no validation for the terrorism, so their is nothing for us to do or not do to create or diminish it at home.

abroad is something else.

our tax dollars have been spent on killing since long before any of us were born, and that is the sad nature of the world.its ugly and it aint right, but it is a kill or be killed world, and those who arent willing to kill will always be subject to those who will.

we have to kill in order to stay alive, as they have to kill to get what we have.it is just the ugly nature of our existance.

as far as learning about this topic, im not gunna offer you any sources as i think that is silly.as tho any one effort captures the whole thing.

i will suggest reading son of hamas as it is a first hand account of some events.

but mostly, being as this conflict is bogged down with propaganda on all sides, i say lap it all up.seek all the propaganda.dont worry about the objective material, as you cant know what is objective till after the fact anyway.

so just dive into the propaganda pool, and just remember that it is propaganda, to look for the pieces that exist on both sides as truth.that is the only way to distill any facts in this.the stuff even the propagandists cant avoid.

which for me personally, is that the hamas charter calls for the desruction of israel, which any charter that calls for the desuction of anything, makes that charter the problem, as it will always result in conflict with no room for an alternative.but thats just me

so the israelis invented time travel to get financing from america and then go back to 48-67 to survive before we bothered to help them?

I rather doubt that all that money spent will provide for any meaningful resolution to this conflict. That's the sad part about it.

I don't, for one minute, believe that it's a "kill or be killed" world. Yes, it's ugly and brutal at its heart, but that's no reason to cave in to fear, envy and intolerance.

We need to listen more. We need to understand more. And when we reach impasses in this dialog, that's the time when we need to listen and understand the other side's point of view even more.

I refuse to believe that a peaceful resolution to this conflict cannot be achieved. And I'm not going to just arbitrarily take sides in this conflict because one side is more aligned with my country. I'm not going to get lost in the propaganda either.

I'll talk and I'll listen, and I have no problem with my government encouraging both sides of this conflict to talk more and listen more. But I'm sick of my government enabling and fomenting unnecessary bloodshed--regardless of who's side claims to be right.

Oh my goodness , that is a reasonable thought !

at some point we are forced to wonder if all that money spent is even meant to provide any meaningful resolution to this conflict.....or if it's just another excuse to pad the pockets of defense contractors who build weapons and homeland security systems......

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/19/small_arms_big_problems

http://you.fr

im sorry, but thinking it isnt kill or be killed is a luxury that has confused the nature of things for you.from animals fighting over resources, to coorperations fighting over markets, that is what it is all about.

it is why an unregulated business like cocaine or herion results in wars in the streets, rather than board meetings to settle disputes.it is the natural order.

a peacefull resolution to this conflict can be achieved, as peacefull resolutions to all of mans conflicts can be achieved, thanks to our ability to choose so.but it isnt going to happen as long as their is an entity that requires conflict to validate its existance, and is a government.

it doesnt matter what israel does, or what anyone does, or doesnt do.as long as hamas (and fatah) are playing the "give us all your free will and thoughts, and we will in turn defend you" game,the conflict will continue as they assure it as creating threats is required for them to have power.

as far as our government and funding goes, dont be silly, it is a conflict, and we have interest across the world of which this is one, and we support those who it makes sense for us to support.the same way we turn a blind eye to the giant human rights violation that china is.

we dont want the authority to be the police of the world, so this is the result.we simply have to make the best of it, and that means looking the other way while china has our goods assembled by the hardwork of children, and choosing to support pakistan, despite them not helping us do anything, just cuz we dont want their nukes to end up in joe shmoe's hands.it also means supporting israel as she is a secular democracy, regardless of all else.

Yup.

And if it were only us doing it....

I'm sure the North Koreans, Chinese, Russians, etc. all have an interest in producing weapons for others. Let's also not forget about other nations who are all jockeying for political power and influence.

I hate to say it, but I truly feel for the Gazans. It's like they're being used as pawns.

My knee-jerk response is arms manufacturers, but I question it. Doesn't Israel have an pretty complete arms manufacturing industry of their own?

Rafael Advanced Defense Systems is an Israeli company....but the money they built Iron Dome with came from the U.S.......a tangled web, for sure. Defense contracts are slippery, people are written into the contract and get paid to act as consultants, advisers, expert opinion....very lucrative business, which is one of the reasons you have so much Congressional support for the DOD budget. As long as Congress believes the American people don't really know what is going on, they are going to continue to funnel money back into their own vested interests. Even as Congress speaks of cutting the defense budget, a close examination of those cuts shows that it is low-ranking personnel who are feeling the real impact of defense cuts, not defense contractors. Everyone has their hand in the pot.....or should I say the taxpayer's pocket?

Thanks. I would suggest the latter.

I can't claim to know what is going on? Get real. Maybe some of the snow in snow storms is going to turn out to be loose oatmeal flakes? Get real. I can see what is going on.

It would appear, from your other comments, that you are a supporter of war, and therefore part of the problem, not the solution.

my position is those who demand war are the problem, as i am against them in order to recognize them as the problem not doing what is best.

if i were the government demanding the destruction of others i would be part of the problem.

but im simply an objective observer who notices demanding some one be destroyed leaves no room for peace with them, as it is an absolute position.

i am propalestinian, by being proisrael.
the same as i am profreedom by being proamerica against the taliban.

i dont want war, but i recognize who leaves the alternative unavailable.

the day the taliban accept freedom as a viable social order, and are resigned to the dimplomatic normalcy we all require to safely coexist on this planet, i will be with them.
and when hamas changes their policy to demanding peace with israel, not the destruction of, i will be all for them too.

but as it is, i see war as the problem, and thos who demand nothing but the enemy.as they are as they have self professed.

I have seen Hamas offer to recognize Israel, if Israel agrees to withdraw the settlement from lands agreed to be Palestinian in Oslo. That is the biggest obstacle to peace at present. There was a time that Hamas demanded Israel's destruction, and while I'm sure there are some in that group that still do, that is in the past.

yes and we have seen gadaffi claim al-queda was the problem in his uprising, along with many other lies that are just silly, as the region is literally lead by who can spin bullshit better than the other.or do you really think iran has no gays?

this is a famous play, arafat used all the time.tell the world one thing, shake the hands of prominant jews, appease the world to get that donor money coming in from the middle ground folks, as you know your radical money will come in as long as you blow shit up, then go home and start blowing shit up.at home where you didnt shake the hand of the prominant jew, cuz you control the media, and you can tell them to rise up as you tried to make piece with the jew devils, but the jew devils will have no peace.

so you have intefadas, and suicide bombers, and bulldozer attacks, and so on and so on, all the while, the actual policy that matters, doesnt change, as it hasnt changed for 64 yrs, which is the demand that israel be destroyed.

you can say it is in the past all you like,but it is still a staple to all palestinian policies.no matter how hidden, like how fatah revised their charter to leave that part out, but also stated all previous charter elements are also still valid, still making it thier policy to destroy israel, as well as hamas's overtly stating it again and again.

it was in the past too that our banking industry screwed over the people for their own gains, and it doesnt mean they arent going to do it again without the required regulations to prevent them from doing so.this is how that goes, and as long as the palestinians cant validate the existance of others, they are the only roadblock to peace.

everything else is smoke screen.

You're comparing apples and oranges. That's all I have to say. There's no point arguing with those who feel privileged to create their own facts.

not apples and oranges at all.

any entity that seeks to screw over others for their own benefit will continue to do so unless stopped.or they wouldnt be screweing people over, but they are.

and big tobacco will not give a fuck about all they kill, the bankers wont give a fuck about all those they take lives from, and the regional despots of the middle east will continue to pull the same shit tyrants always have as long as they can.

the only difference is what paradigms they find themselves in, as the tobacco executive if born in iraq could have been saddam hussien, as saddam born in tenesse would have been a tobacco executive.

human beings who care not for their fellow man, but only for their own self interest will capitalize on it where ever they can.it is why the greedy never have a dollar amount that is enough for them to stop taking.

so of course leaders of populations that arent democracies, or have free speech will say what ever they like, as they arent held accountable for it where it matters, and can serve their own desires above all else.

yup and he has actually pushed up the elections based on a coallition government falling apart, while ehud barack has moved away from him making the whole thing up for grabs.

If you can believe the polls, the vast majority of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.
It's a handful of religious zealots on both sides that perpetuate this insanity.

Ain't religion great! :)

Yep. Bibi's getting on in years, and he is not at all time high popularity. Running out of time to get his damned wars on.

You can support Israel without being a fan of the current government. Just like we loved America but hated the bush/cheney administrations. We hope the people of Israel will hold the hawks accountable to what they are doing, which does not further the cause of peace for anyone.

No chance for either to happen. The hawks will keep killing without being punished and there will be no peace. The Bush darksiders in the CIA will see to that. Violence is thier product. Everlasting suffering.

As an American , i KNOW how that feels ... Zealots . or Hawks as they call themselves ( I call them chickenhawks) .

I think so, Attila, but since Israel's media has done an excellent job of fear mongering, I think that the majority there favors war.