Community | January 20, 2013 | 92 comments

Corporations Are NOT Free Market Businesses

source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75tLTBIzgNo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75tLTBIzgNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75tLTBIzgNo

The standard left/right political positions on corporations are fallacious. Corporations are NOT free market businesses, they are government licensed and protected. Without government, corporations would not exist, only regular every day, non-advantage free market businesses.

http://voluntaryvirtues.com/2013/01/15/corporations-are-not-free-market-business...
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92 comments // Corporations Are NOT Free Market Businesses

  • johnnyTremaine
    • +3
      johnnyTremaine  
    • Image

    • The dire warnings of President Eisenhower on the future of liberty in a civilization ruled by the collusion of the Military- Industrial- Energy Government-Media –-Police has evolved out of the Bilderberg conference in 1954 and grown into the “New World Order”. This reality of geo-politics is arguably and without bias based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fictional account of a plot by world Jewry to conquer the world. This blueprint for a global Fascist totalitarian dictatorship, has been “ inspired” and adopted by the powers of the world as a perfect model for their own desires to accomplish the same ends, Global Hegemony. This “ One World Power “ struggle is nearing the final stages of implementation in 2012. America is under siege from within the State houses and Congress, in league with the global corporate aristocracy.

      http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • johnnyTremaine
  • johnnyTremaine
  • warman1138
  • artemis6
  • johnnyTremaine
  • bailey78
  • GoodGodGuy
    • +7
      GoodGodGuy  

    • Before leaving office, D. Eisenhower warned of the impending power of the defense contractors. Yes, even Dwight as a Repugnican saw the dangers.

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +6
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • GoodGodGuy:

      Google General Smedley Darlington Butler some time and see what he had to say about the military he served for decades! War is a racket.

      I would post the video again...for the umpteenth time....but I fear those here who have seen it would give me what for...if I did!

    • 4 months ago
  • johnnyTremaine
    • +2
      johnnyTremaine  
    • GoodGodGuy:

      Yes I have posted this link dozens of times and we cannot remind everyone enough !

      Important note. Eisenhower's grandaughter, Susan has posted that the original draft of the speech quoted"the military-industriel-CONGRESSIONAL comples", but Dwight left out the Congress in his speech, as he felt that he had not personally had a real problem with them at that time, under his tenure, Oh boy he really knew what was coming, did he not !

      another quote that Dwight referenced,and one I post often is this:

      "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the few…. The hand entrusted with power becomes … the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening into a despot: only by unintermitted Agitation can a people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered in material prosperity."
      -- Wendell Phillips, speech in Boston, Massachusetts, January 28, 1852

      LISTEN TO EISENHOWER:at link below

      http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/dwightdeisenhowerfarewell.html

    • 4 months ago
  • johnnyTremaine
    • +2
      johnnyTremaine  
    • Image
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Buckey, DO IT RE-POST it for all of us, I have not heard it. and it would not be considered spam. When you know the truth, keep speaking it untill the day you die !

      "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the few…. The hand entrusted with power becomes … the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening into a despot: only by unintermitted Agitation can a people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered in material prosperity."
      -- Wendell Phillips, speech in Boston, Massachusetts, January 28, 1852

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • FoosMaster
    • +3
      FoosMaster  

    • The only businesses that have freedom in a 'Free Market' are the Mega-Corporations that control the resources And the laws. The small businesses have only the leftovers and must work within the laws the corporations wrote without any bailouts if they have trouble.

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +6
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • FoosMaster:

      That's why those "Mom and Pop" enterprizes fail so often. Nine out of ten go bankrupt within the first three years. The economic atmosphere is suited for the "Big Guy" to succeed and the "little guy" to shrivel up and disappear. And that carried over to the small bankers that were not the "Dare Devils of the Almighty Dollar" high wire trapeze acts the Big Boys turned out to be. It must be nice to gamble away your assets and by being too big to fail, have to be thrown a life vest to prevent the entire financial system to go down drowning with you since the politicans made it reality by virtue of deregulation and didn't buttress their stability in a so-called free market. Yeah, right!

      +^d

    • 4 months ago
  • FoosMaster
    • +3
      FoosMaster  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Speaking to a Libertarian friend of mine just now on the phone he reminded me that a true "Free" market has NO laws to protect or favor the corporations because it has NO laws. He is correct about that.
      As I said to him, "Yes but a truly "Free" market is Impossible because unrestricted corporations would grow so large that they would control ALL of the earth's resources thus controlling ALL markets so a truly "Free" market is an IMPOSSIBLE dream. WAKE UP!"

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +5
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • FoosMaster:

      A Libertarian thinks the Constitution protects the rights of the many versus the rights of the few!

      But it's JUST the opposite!

      The Constitution was written to protect the FEW from the MANY!

      So many Libertarians fail to understand that. And Republicans. And quite a few Democrats, too!

      Three people live in a small town. One is black and the other two white. The two white guys propose a bill to keep black people from swimming in the town pool. By a Libertarian's point of view, if they vote on that law and the two white guys vote to deny the black guy the right to swim in that town pool...it becomes law.

      That's why Rand, Ron's son, says it's a PRIVATE business's RIGHT to DENY ANYONE their services! For any reason at all.

      Like Glenn Beck and his "city" he wants to build in Utah. Gated. "We don't want YOUR kind coming here! Stay out!"

    • 4 months ago
  • FoosMaster
  • FoosMaster
    • +3
      FoosMaster  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Libertarian freedom is actually freedom for the ruling majority to oppress the minority.
      They also fail to understand that without business laws to control and regulate the markets, corporations would get so large that they would control All resources, thus the moneyed few will then totally control Everyone and Everything. Then their Libertarian utopia would be Crushed and replaced with a Corporatocracy.

    • 4 months ago
  • PressCore
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +4
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Image

    • To get a taste of how businesses and corporations took advantage of workers and used the government to pursue their own selfishness, watch the History Channel's, "The Men Who Built America". It paints the best picture of what happened during the Industrial Revolution in this country. Greed was what drove those men to heights of wealth and power. They capitalized on the resources of this nation for their own use. Things like mineral rights and natural resources should have been in the public's domain and shared interest.

      This is happening today where an oil company signs 99 year leases for valuable land for pennies on the dollar. Or natural gas companies....or water, or electric power production using taxpayer built dams....or coal deposits. Pennies on the dollar?

      What a deal!

      http://www.history.com/shows/men-who-built-america/videos/playlists/web-exclusiv...

      Teddy Roosevelt left the Republican Party over this "land grab" that the wealthy wanted to have control over public lands and its wealth in resources. And now we are faced with this Keystone Oil Pipeline demanding eminent domain to own and build their "money-maker". But we, the public, will not see a dime for all that which they want to possess! Well, maybe those pennies on the dollar deal...what a deal...for them!

      Our infrastructure is being sold right out from under us as I type this comment.

    • 4 months ago
  • PressCore
    • +3
      PressCore  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      The History channel is a favorite of mine. It was either that or another channel
      with a similar title to their series: The Men Who Built America. Only, given that
      I remember correctly, parentheticly, they added Built America for Themselves.
      Now it may be a different series altogether than the one you mentioned about...
      I don't know one way or the other, now. With respect for your p.o.v. I only seek
      to add my comment here because the movers & shakers had a vision that held
      themselves at the center of their construct.

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • PressCore:

      Well, all ya gotta do is click on the link I provided and watch the videos associated with it and see if it's the same one you're recalling.

      It did add to my knowledge base about that era and the people involved!

      And keep an eye open for it to be reran, as I'm certain that there will be a "repeat performance"!

    • 4 months ago
  • johnnyTremaine
    • +3
      johnnyTremaine  
    • Image
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Keep it up Bucko. We must defeat the Global Illuminati Mafia, headed by the CFR, Trilateralists, Bilderbergs, Royalty of the world, BP, Dutch Royall Shell, Exxon-Mobil, Monsanto, Pfizer, Merck, Bayer, Lockeed MArtin, Boeing, Wall Street Pigs like John and Hank Paulson, Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimon , The Rockefellers, Duponts, Sheldon Adelson, Paul Singer, Romney, and and plenty of other billionaires. Feel free to add your own to the SHIT list.

      Carlos " Slim " Helu (richest man in the world).

      Read about ;SLIM:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim

    • 4 months ago
  • johnnyTremaine
  • johnnyTremaine
    • +1
      johnnyTremaine  
    • Image
    • PressCore:

      The Kings of today are Multi-National Corporations, Politicians, Globalist Financial Dynasties, Wall Street Criminals, Lobbyists and their funded “think tanks” and foundations which manufacture false public opinion, and engineer the fabric of society to achieve their own political and economic objectives, without regard for the best interests of civilization.

      It is time for citizens to pay attention to the details of everyday legislative activities and to voice their vehement opposition. The cost of silence to freedom is tyranny.
      Remember the German people turned a blind eye to the actions of the Nazis, out of fear and indifference, and look what blind faith enabled them to accomplish. We face a situation not unlike that of Germany in the 1930’s. These same military-industrial Aristocracies have invaded the American political system and undertaken in their own right, in collusion with Our American Congress, for their own benefit as individuals, using their power to legislate industry and control the media, have so aligned their agendas to deceive , divide and conquer their greatest enemies, The free will of the citizens of America.

      The dire warnings of President Eisenhower on the future of liberty in a civilization ruled by the collusion of the Military- Industrial- Energy Government-Media –-Police has evolved out of the Bilderberg conference in 1954 and grown into the “New World Order”. This reality of geo-politics is arguably and without bias based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fictional account of a plot by world Jewry to conquer the world. This blueprint for a global Fascist totalitarian dictatorship, has been “ inspired” and adopted by the powers of the world as a perfect model for their own desires to accomplish the same ends, Global Hegemony. This “ One World Power “ struggle is nearing the final stages of implementation in 2012. America is under siege from within the State houses and Congress, in league with the global corporate aristocracy.

      FACT: The wealth of America is controlled by 1/10th of 1% of the Global Corporate Aristocracy, the multi-national corporations that do not pay taxes, this includes individuals such as Mitt Romney and Warren Buffet, The Heirs to Wal Mart, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, The Koch Dynasty , Rupert Murdoch, Exxon Mobil, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, General Electric, Boeing, The British, Saudi, and American Royal families, etc.

      Is This TREASON ?

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Image
    • johnnyTremaine:

      " Feel free to add your own to the SHIT list."

      I have sooo much "SHIT" on these "movers and shakers" that if I did, this thread would be ten miles long!

      And thanks for your words of encouragement, too! Makes all my researching efforts worthwhile when someone actually reads, views or listens to all that I have available to share.

      For instance, Ilse Koch, the Bitch of Buchenwald...a *relative of the Koch Brothers: http://unknownjournal.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/%E2%96%BC-report-the-kochs-their-...

      +^d

      (*Excerpt from the article above)
      "Information connecting Ilse and Koch Industries is hard to find but is a string of fragments, pieces of information that connects the American and German Kochs and this connection gives us a clear image of the sentiment behind the Tea Party and conservative American politics since the 1950s. Where is the connection between the German Koch’s and Fred Koch? Besides evidence the American Koch was related to Ilse’s family, Erich Koch (a high level Nazi official in charge of Prussia) invites Fred Koch to sell his oil in Nazi Germany when he is banned from doing business in the US. After the fall of Nazi Germany, Erich Koch and Fred expand the oil empire to the Soviet Union. Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes – Fred Koch returned to the US, became anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again."

    • 4 months ago
  • FoosMaster
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  

    • Here is a fascinating documentary on what corporations are!

      Well worth the 2 hours, 24 minutes and four seconds it takes to watch the whole, dang thang!

      This Canadian documentary named, "The Corporation", exemplifies the lengths companies will go to ensure their power over the populace of the world! It tells many stories and one is of a large city in Bolivia about a company named Bechtel that owns all the water rights in the area. Even RAINWATER! How on Earth can a company OWN rainwater? But they do! The poorest cannot collect it for their personal use. They face hefty fines if they are caught! These same souls must expend an average of twenty five percent of their wages to purchase water for drinking, bathing, washing clothes, etc.. People have been forced to live in the streets or work an extra job to support their need for water. We are witness to a monumental time in human history where privatizing of the basic elements for life will soon be owned and divvied out to those who pay for the use of these fundamental necessities for existence. We ought to be getting used to the concept by now. Stadiums are named for corporations. Soon, towns and cities will bear a name purchased for the aggrandizement of companies! You will have to drive down Exxon Parkway, turn right on Coca Cola Causeway then left onto Nestles Lane to arrive at your neighborhood aptly named Home Depot Condominiums! Turn on the faucet for Gatorade water, watch a program on T.V. named "The Murdoch Movie of the Week", eat a preheated, predigested meal of Murdoch Mash, consisting of all the nutrious vitamins and minerals you'll need to get to a job the next day that has the power to tell you what to wear, when to sleep, when to bathe, how many family members you may have, providing you've got the permits to do so! Why, even the spoons and forks you use will be company-issued! Sound far out? Think Disney World, then get back to me!

      "Celebration is a town built from the ground up to Disney's standards. Located just south of Highway 192 from Walt Disney World, Celebration is a very pleasant place to spend part of a day. It is a planned community built on a foundation of cornerstones: Community, Education, Health, Technology, and a Sense of Place. Disney used the services of top-name architects in developing the plans for Celebration, which includes a downtown, health center, school, post office, town hall, golf course, single family homes, townhouses and apartments."

      All the comforts a man, woman or child would need, excepting of course, freedom of choice. Soon we'll be able to drop the word "Human" and be left with just "Being".

    • 4 months ago
  • shanklinmike
  • MSII
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +5
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • shanklinmike:

      You and I are MILES apart on this issue. You see government as the enemy. I see governement as We The People. You see that free market capitalism "glass" as half empty. I see that "glass" as flowing over the lip. You see free markets as the builders...I see the workers as the true builders of this nation. I wonder if you aren't for a New World Order run by a new type of capitalistic corporation...the free market variety. I want to see the 99% united as one. You spoke of Native Americans...you do know they were a communistic society, correct? That, "All for one and one for all" was their way of life? You couldn't tell the Chief's teepee from the other tribal members. If one ate, they all ate. No one thought of "owning" land. They laughed at the white man's concept of land ownership. They thought to themselves, "What's that white man going to do with the land? Carry it off somewhere?" They got a rude awakening when they saw their first fence with a NO Trespassing sign hanging on it.

      You: Free markets are good. Profit is good.
      Me: Free markets are BAD and should be corralled and held responsible for their actions. Profit is the first step taken on the trip to greed.

      May I ask if you've read the novel, "Animal Farm"? Once a group assumes a leadership role, power goes to their head. Indubitably!

      I prefer my ancestors' idea of shared ownership since all members benefitted or suffered collectively.

      The biggest flaw I see in your belief how free market capitalism is the right way to go is it depletes the environment of its natural resources making widgets and doodads to create this artifical environment.

      I fall in the category of living with nature NATURALLY. Like my father's, father's, father's, father's, father did.

      We are trading a technological existence for the raping of the Earth to live the way we do. This way of life shall soon come to an end when we run out of those critical resources needed to support it. Attrition of natural resources in what this societal way of life needs to sustain itself is inevitable. Especially with the population explosion that's on the not-too-distant horizon. 25% of the oil produced today is used to support our American way of life. Just wait until the other 75% of the world wants what we have. Then the speeding up of the need to use what resources that are not finite will be required to bring the rest of the world up to our standard of living. That wll drain what's left and, perhaps a hundred years from now, there will be nothing left to exploit. If it lasts that long.

      But I'm an old man and will not be around to see the self-destruction of Mankind. Wish I could so I could say, "I told you so!"

      Humankind is stuck on a rung of that evolutionary ladder we've been balancing on for a hundred years when the Industrial Revolution really took off. We need to find a way to take that next step to advance humanity. I fear we, as a species, are devolving.

      And, in closing, I shall share with you what I think has driven civilization since we first stepped out of that cave we resided in for thousands of years!

      The FIRST free market/capitalist/corporation known to Man?

      Beer. Behold the story of it all in the video I have posted for your perusal!

    • 4 months ago
  • FoosMaster
  • FoosMaster
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +2
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • FoosMaster:

      "Wondering why this post shows (1 year ago?) as when this was posted. ???"

      You got me, pardner! It "reads" 54 minutes on my end! You could do a "Screen Capture" and post that here for me to see!

      How bizarre!

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +4
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • MSII:

      " It's the coming total right-wing-corporate-FASCIST-state."

      They certainly march to a different cadence alright...

      Right....the other right...right...the other right...right...

    • 4 months ago
  • MSII
  • MSII
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +4
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • MSII:

      "It's the coming total right-wing-corporate-FASCIST-state."

      Yeah...like what Glenn is building in Utah... New Beck City, or some stupid thing he'll name it...a gated community. Soon, we'll see those gates expand all the way to the state line!

      And talk about capitalism is better than corporatism......Corporations drive a car named capitalism to the bank to deposit their profits!

      Businesses like Wallmart will be doing everything they can to limit what their workforce is paid or receives in benefits...which is very little now! But profit before morality! Well, corporations, companies or capitalist banks aren't required to have human traits or values...even though they're counted as a "person"...thanks to the SCOTUS - past and present justices- for that stab in the back to We The People!

      But We The People are the "government"! It's just that we don't exercise that muscle and it's atrophied. It starts with, "Bad politicians are voted into office by good people not voting". Talk about the minority ruling the masses!

      And companies such as Walmart that threaten its workers by reducing their hours so they can be removed from getting healthcare....and soon paid vacations and sick days and "Do you really need to take a lunch/restroom break?" get away with all they do because We The People do not use that OTHER muscle....consumer power. All we would have to do is not shop there...don't darken their doors and watch how fast they would change those company policies! Consumers vote with their dollars, don't you know!

      And all we see are Republican governors, one after the other... busting public unions...divide and conquer...so union members have no say in their working conditions, pay, grievances from uncaring bosses and anything associated with having and keeping a job. Right-To-Work laws are being implimented one state at a time to take away any semblance of a living wage earned by the sweat of one's brow! And it gives them the right to fire you at will, for no reason whatsoever! Truth be known, they'd love to pay American workers what a Chinese employee/'near slave' receives...56 cents per hour...with no benefits except a bed to sleep in and a meager meal to eat so you can stay on the premises to work when needed! And that's 6 or 7 days per week, 12 hours per day, too!

      I knew workers were in trouble when many companies began that lovely thing called "internships". Just another name for indentured servant. And now there's talk about eliminating minimum wage laws and child labor laws.

      Time for a change.....time for us, We The People to change our attitudes about these issues and stand up for our rights!

      Like, yesterday!

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +5
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Image
    • MSII:

      "... a powerful completely out-of-control rapacious beast in a field,...."

      OH! Like, "I am Locutus of Borg. Resistance is futile. Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service us." - Locutus of Borg/Jean-Luc Picard, Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Best of Both Worlds" (1990)...... "Your base are belong to us!!!!"?

      You mean that way?

    • 4 months ago
  • Cheryl_Lowry
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +1
      Gordon_Shumway  

    • "Free markets are like leprechauns.
      - They are an enchanting concept,
      - They're said to work by magic,
      - and I don't know anyone who's actually seen one!"

      ... Gordon Shumway

    • 4 months ago
  • shanklinmike
    • -4
      shanklinmike [removed]  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      Who said they were run by magic? A free market is where people are allowed to freely do as they please as long as they do not infringe on the freedoms of others. It is an economy of people. Sure no one has seen one, because it requires there be no government, and society hasn't evolved to that point yet. In fact, since no one has seen one, that only further proves that we have NOT been in a free market, and that as government grows, these problems we are newly facing should be attributed to the government that created these negative externalities.

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +3
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • shanklinmike:

      "Who said they were run by magic?" - That was Adam Smith. And not "are run" by magic; but rather "work (or operate if you prefer) by magic". I may be paraphrasing slightly; but in describing his concept of the "invisible hand" of markets, that truly free men, in a truly free market, acting only in their own, narrow self-interest, will produce the best possible result for society, "as if by magic".

      Smith also made it clear, that under the English Mercantile Economic system of his time, there were no markets of any consequence that were truly free. Once any market became of consequence, mercantile interests immediately set about manipulating them.

      "Sure no one has seen one, because it requires there be no government, and society hasn't evolved to that point yet."

      I dispute one word only, "yet". You seem to imply that society CAN evolve to a point where it can operate without government. Unless I live to see "the Second Coming", I don't really see that as a possibility.

      "In fact, since no one has seen one, that only further proves that we have NOT been in a free market"

      Exactly so!

      "these problems we are newly facing should be attributed to the government that created these negative externalities."

      The problems we face are not new. If you read any contemporary accounts of 16th, 17th, 18th, or 19th century political economies, you will be amazed at how familiar the problems they described will sound.

      And the problems you attribute to the nature of government, I attribute to the nature of man. If the elimination of government could make man more honest, less violent, less greedy, I'd be all for it.

    • 4 months ago
  • shanklinmike
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      "And the problems you attribute to the nature of government, I attribute to the nature of man. If the elimination of government could make man more honest, less violent, less greedy, I'd be all for it."

      I'm with you! Now, for my post.....

      "Nobody Knows How To Make A Pencil"

      Milton Friedman, who passed away in 1994, was a Nobel Prize winning economist who told the story of how the pencil is the quintessential example of free markets at work, Adam Smith's, "Invisible Hand", and Friedrich Hayek's understanding of the power of dispersed knowledge, spoke of the role of pricing as information and emergent, spontaneous order.

      Friedman originally introduced the pencil story to popular public consciousness in his 1980's television series, "Free to Choose". It's a ten part series that I think is very informative.

      "Nobody knows how to make a pencil. There's not a single person in the world who actually knows how to make a pencil.

      "In order to make a pencil, you have to get wood for the barrel. In order to get wood, you have to have logging. You have to have somebody who can manufacture saws. No single person knows how to do all that.

      "What's called lead isn't lead. It's graphite. It comes from some mines in South America. In order to make pencils, you'd have to be able to get the lead.

      "The rubber at the tip isn't really rubber, but it used to be. It comes from Malaysia, although the rubber tree is not native to Malaysia. It was imported into Malaysia by some English botanists.

      "So, in order to make a pencil, you would have to be able to do all of these things. There are probably thousands of people who have cooperated together to make this pencil. Somehow or other, the people in South America who dug out the graphite cooperated with the people in Malaysia who tapped the rubber trees, cooperated with, maybe, people in Oregon who cut down the trees.

      "These thousands of people don't know one another. They speak different languages. They come from different religions. They might hate one another if they met. What is it that enabled them to cooperate together?

      "The answer is the existence of a market.

      "The simple answer is the people in South America were led to dig out the graphite because somebody was willing to pay them. They didn't have to know who was paying them; they didn't have to know what it was going to be used for. All they had to know was somebody was going to pay them.

      "What brought all these people together was an enormously complex structure of prices - the price of graphite, the price of lumber, the price of rubber, the wages paid to the laborer, and so on. It's a marvelous example of how you can get a complex structure of cooperation and coordination which no individual planned.

      "There was nobody who sat in a central office and sent an order out to Malaysia: 'Produce more rubber.' It was the market that coordinated all of this without anybody having to know all of the people involved.".

      Friedman's story of the pencil is inspired by the 1958 essay, I, Pencil, by Leonard E. Read. Read's essay concludes:

      "The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth."

      (Sources: I wish I could recall them all!)

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +3
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • shanklinmike:

      "You don't dare NOT have one" is more like it.

      No group of humans bigger than a nuclear family has ever advanced beyond the stage of "hunter gatherers" without a government of some kind. Even families seem to have needed to be organized on Patriarchal (or less commonly Matriarchal) principals. And even hunter gatherers quickly organized along some sort of tribal government.

      Robert LaFerve was a Looney! He is a perfect example of why doctrinaire Libertarians are never taken seriously by the broader public anywhere on Earth, in spite of the fact that there are many appealing aspects to Libertarian ideas, taken more in the abstract.

      From his wikipedia bio (a sympathetic submission, undoubtedly written by someone with a "Ron Paul for President" sign in their front yard):

      "LeFevre also claimed a number of supernatural experiences:
      - driving a car while asleep for over twenty miles without an accident (this was accomplished with the help of his “Higher Mental Body”),
      - leaving his physical body for a trip through the air to Mt. Shasta, and seeing Jesus."

      "Although often forgotten by libertarians today, LeFevre "preached a thoroughgoing pacifism that held it to be an impermissible violation of the property rights of an assailant to destroy the ropes he'd tied you up with (just so long as they were his ropes) ..."

      But I suppose his day is coming, once humanity has "advanced" far enough to the the light. Settle in for a long wait shanklinmike ...

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +4
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Sources unnecessary. I'm very familiar with the writings of Friedman and more so with those of Adam Smith. Personally, I don't think Friedman or Read add anything to Adam Smith's original description of the division of labor (or should I say labour).

      I find that modern "Free Market" economists have taken a huge step backwards from Smith's original work in "The Wealth of Nations". Smith was more the humble observer and less the ideologue than the more Libertarian free market crowd of the late 20th century. As such, Smith describes a system of political economy based upon the way he observed that people DID behave, as opposed to one based on how he wished they might behave.

    • 4 months ago
  • sedwin
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      I seem to wonder why Ayn Rand has been left out of this conversation here on this thread? You'd think she would have been "front and center" as a shining example for the free market capitalists and their unbridled greed!

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      Friedman over-simplified historical events to a black and white vision. He thought there was this warm, cozy relationship between corporations and the working class. One depended on the other equally.

      So why did the corporations get the elephant and the labour (or is it labor? LOL) class the peanuts? The du Ponts, Rockefellers, Gettys, Morgans and Chases all made out like bandits during the Great Depression.

      Funny how when the average "Joe" began investing in the stock market it crashed taking all their investments and the few at the top reaped all the dough!

      And here we are...watching the same game play out again.

      If there were 100 people in a room and all the money that was in their pockets suddenly disappeared, I'd be checking the guy who had the bulging pockets before anyone left the room.

      It's a mind game. That buy low and sell high game. Fear is what the rich use to drive the markets.

      Like in the movie, "It's A Wonderful Life".....with George Bailey trying to calm the crowd down on the fear that the banks were threatening to close by telling them, "Mr Potter's not selling. He's buying!"

      I fail to see how a can of corn is worth a nickel - proverbially speaking - today, but won't be tomorrow. It's the same can. Only in some people's minds does that corn seem worthless because of a Mr. Potter telling them so. And he wants that can of corn....BAD!

      That's why I say buy Spam....you can't eat gold and survive.

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +3
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      Yes, I've noticed that myself. I'm beginning to wonder if Ayn Rand has become a bit too mainstream for the Libertarian fringe. That would make her just the gateway drug to serious Libertarian Kool Aid. Like, Ayn Rand is for Newbies or something. If you want to establish your Libertarian street cred, you've got to be seen quoting Murray Rothbard or Robert LaFerve or some other of that ilk.

      Maybe I'm reading too much into it ...

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +3
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • Buckeye_Bill:

      "Friedman over-simplified historical events to a black and white vision."
      Yes, I quite agree. Libertarianism has been taken over by the ideological purists. This is no where more true than among Libertarian economists. Like all ideologues, at their core, they have a low tolerance for ambiguity. Hence, everything HAS to be black and white.

      Rothbard's absolutist notion of property rights is a great example. "[Rothbard] held it to be an impermissible violation of the property rights of an assailant to destroy the ropes he'd tied you up with (just so long as they were his ropes) ..."

      Everything MUST flow from "first principals"; and even when that leads you to a seemingly irrational conclusion, you must acknowledge that conclusion and accept that its apparent irrationality derives from social conventions that are insufficiently enlightened.

      "[Friedman] thought there was this warm, cozy relationship between corporations and the working class."
      Of course that's a convenient thing to believe if one wants to live off of the largess of the establishment Billionaires and Banksters.

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +3
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      http://turnoffyourtv.com/commenta

      "you must acknowledge that conclusion and accept that its apparent irrationality derives from social conventions that are insufficiently enlightened."

      Okay, Mr. Wordsmith! I completely concur! And we were warned by Edward R. Murrow in his "speech" given to the RTNDA Convention on October 15th 1958.

      turnoffyourtv.com/commenta­ry/hiddenagenda/murrow.htm­l

      The masses, us, have fallen asleep at the information "wheel".

      Two thumbs up! +^d, +^d

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +2
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      "It's My Democratic Party"
      Lyrics By Buckeye Bill
      (To be sung to the beat of, "It's My Party!", by Leslie Gore -1965)

      Nobody knows where my Obama has gone.
      Barry's "left" me so many times!
      Why is he helping Boehner's GOP...
      When he's supposed to be helpin' mine?

      It's my Party and I'll cry if I want to,
      Cry if I want to, cry if I want to!
      You should cry too, 'cause it's happened to you!

      Where are my voter rights, "O" keeps dodging the fight.
      He throws me a bone every once in a while.
      Obama refuses to see the light!
      I've got no reason to smile!

      It's my Party and I'll cry if I want to,
      Cry if I want to, cry if I want to!
      You should cry too 'cause it's happened to you!

      ------ LEAD BREAK ------

      Barry just walked in the HOR.
      Like a serf obeying his kings.
      Oh, what a Political Party surprise!
      He's wearin' his Boehner nose ring!

      It's my Party and I'll cry if I want to,
      Cry if I want to, cry if I want to.
      You should cry too since it's happened to you!

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • 0
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • Image
    • sedwin:

      My question is, what about the cost of goods and services? Why should the "price" be set at "what the consumer will pay"? There should be a way of figuring out the actual cost and use that as what things are "worth".

      An example of runaway pricing is the standard order of procedure in a "supply and demand" atmosphere. That entices a company to keep the supply down, deliberately, to raise what one has to pay. As with the price of gasoline.

      I have a problem, too, with that, "What the market will bear", attitude. That's why a Gordon Gekko thinks, "Greed is good!". Why not, "What the market should pay"? We have "appraisers" that puts what a particular thing is worth. We can't apply that concept to setting the prices of all things made or done for the consumer? I ask, "Why not?".

      I do believe the wealthy will do whatever it takes to maximize their profits at the expense of everyone else. No matter what it takes, make as big a profit as one can and keep it to themselves. It's only natural for the wealthy to think this way. Why share their riches? They feel they've earned that money. They own the businesses that made their money. They didn't have any help doing it...or did they?

      What about their employees? Weren't they the ones that were toiling away at their jobs helping to create that profit, also? I know, the wealthy purchases the land, materials and hires the laborers. But those laborers use their own hands to actually build things with those materials on that land. I say to the ones that invests in those skyscrapers to share their profits with the ones that literally built them. Or those who build the widgets and thingamajigs a company makes.

      And taxing the rich is key to creating a robust OR busted economy. What do I mean? Well, let's break it down one step at a time. When the tax rate was at 92% in 1952 for anyone making over a million dollars in personal income, what did the wealthy do to keep from writing a big, fat check to the IRS each year? They INVESTED their profit back into their company! "How?", you ask? By building new factories or improving the ones they owned. By replacing worn out equipment with brand new ones. By investing in research to devise a better way to make or improve their product(s). By paying a living wage and providing benefits including pensions, vacation/sick pay and healthcare to their employees. By supporting personnel training to enhance their workforce, thereby enabling their employees to do a better job more efficiently. A happy worker whistles while he works if he feels he's not just a cog in the wheel of industry. And all this was done because of the write-offs for investment and depreciation write-downs they had rather than sending a check to Uncle Sam.

      But a new way was devised to operate a company by way of tax breaks that had little to do with investing in their own businesses. Tax lawyers and accountants came up with new ideas to keep that profit from going to the government or having to reinvest in their businesses. Tax breaks. Reducing that percentage that was levied against income. All of a sudden...when Republicans got in control...the rate dropped from that 92% to 50% between 1981 and 1986. Then Reagan reduced that down to 38.5% in 1987. After that, George Herbert Walker Bush lowered it to a measly 28% for the years 1988 through 1990. The wealthy was rolling in dough! However, the nation experienced a drop in federal monies so much that it hurt the economy so badly that GHW Bush couldn't get reelected...no matter how hard the rich tried. They had gotten used to rolling in piles of money by then! But Bill Clinton won his first election and sent that tax rate all the way back up to a whopping 39.6%! And you never heard such whining and bitching coming from the wealthy! And then...the economy started picking back up! The rich began to reinvest in their businesses and starting new ones again...of course, to keep from having to write those big, fat income tax checks to the IRS again. Jobs were so plentiful that companies had a tough time filling all they created!

      But there was a fundamental shift in the world of business taxation. There had been so many loopholes created during the Reagan years that the wealthy could still hold on to most of their profits rather than having to commit to plowing their money back into those businesses.

      Then George W. Bush becomes president. I have feelings about how, but that's another story. What I do know is he dropped them back down to 35% for the years 2003 through 2010. But with all those tax breaks, loopholes and creative accounting, many wealthy individuals were paying the smallest percentage in their whole, entire greedy lives! They had wet dreams of rolling in so much money they had to deposit their profits in offshore bank accounts and those hush-hush, wink, wink Swiss bank accounts! I guess the U.S. banks ran out of room for all they were keeping! And to keep the IRS' eyes from seeing it.

      Tax breaks. Especially states providing them. Texas could entice a company headquartered in Ohio to relocate and save money by not having to pay so much in state taxes. And roads...Texas would build one to their front door...on the Texas taxpayer dime. Deferred or reduced property taxes was dangled in front of their faces, too! Of course, that had an impact on local schools since they need those to survive. Many states' school systems are supported only by property taxes collected. OUCH!

      And last, but certainly not least, corporations use some of the most inventive ways to keep from paying taxes on profits they pocket! It's the most amazing sight to behold when a multi-national business like G.E. is so ashamed of what is paid in taxes they won't admit what Federal taxes they owed. They did say that in 2010, their tax rate was 7%, globally. Whatever the Hell that means!

      And here we are! President Obama is fighting with the Republican Party to get wealthy individuals and corporations to increase their tax bases for the good of the country! Funny thing is, they all are still reeling from the reality that Mr. Obama won reelection and Mitt is sitting at home rather than in the Oval Office preparing a statement to tell them how much LESS money they thought they'd have to pay in taxes!

      And their whining and bitching is just as loud as ever!

    • 4 months ago
  • MSII
  • shanklinmike
  • Gordon_Shumway
  • shanklinmike
  • MSII
    • +1
      MSII  
    • Gordon_Shumway:

      Weren't the right-wingers all going to depart for that little promised-land of theirs if The President was re-elected? ...apparently none of them had the courage of their insani-tea-vangelical "convictions".

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
  • shanklinmike
  • shanklinmike
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +4
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • shanklinmike:

      "I'm sorry, but what does this post have to do with a bunch of crazy republican tea partiers?!? I fail to see anything on this post that sells neo-conservatism."

      You lost me. I don't recall mentioning Republicans, Tea Partiers, or neo-conservatism. Perhaps you meant to reply to someone else' post ...

    • 4 months ago
  • Gordon_Shumway
    • +4
      Gordon_Shumway  
    • shanklinmike:

      Glad to know the "facts about Somalia". Now that I understand the difference between your concept of "rational anarchism" and plain old anarchism, I'm sure I'll be coming around to that way of thinking in no time at all.

      But until I do, I'm gonna enjoy a bit of a laugh over the phrase "rational anarchism". That's my new favorite oxymoron. Eat your heart out "military intelligence" ...

    • 4 months ago
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +2
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • shanklinmike:

      However, Mr.shanklinmike, you brought it up about three hours ago...so I feel compelled to answer your post with my retort concerning the difference between the two parties. I hope you will understand.

      The precedent had been set. That Pandora's Box of Politics had been opened....and not by moi.

      And after this video, I shall end it concerning my comments, as I have stated my position by doing so and will not voice my opinion on the subject any further.

    • 4 months ago
  • Bilalz
    • +7
      Bilalz  

    • Yup the antiquated left/right paradigm is just a fabricated dichotomy to keep people busy fighting each other instead of the real criminals. Non-aggression principle ftw!

    • 4 months ago
  • Zak_Nores
  • Gordon_Shumway
  • artemis6
  • Buckeye_Bill
    • +2
      Buckeye_Bill  
    • artemis6:

      And if you can't divide them enough, wear them down with a lack of jobs, no home, no healthcare and no safety net in which they may be caught and not fall into a pit of despair...and THEN conquer the "enemy"...as they see us.

      +^d

    • 4 months ago
  • artemis6
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • Cheryl_Lowry
  • Joe_Tittiger
  • shanklinmike
  • Christian_Lombardo
  • shanklinmike
  • Nathan_Anderson
  • Zak_Nores
  • MSII
  • TanzaniteDiamonds
  • MSII
  • Buckeye_Bill
  • MSII
  • Buckeye_Bill
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