so your position is if only the political jews forced segregation of their fellow jews that would be the proper thing to do?

i thought in your world the zionist jews were to blame for the holocaust as it was their desire?

or not when you dont have an audience for that disgusting material?then it changes?

the founder of israel said and i quote"one cow in palestine is worth more than all the jews in europe". thats why so many people had to die. non zionist jews didnt want to leave europe, so they needed a little help from he zionists.

which runs counter to the position you had just typed before, if you can handle holding onto these two thoughts at the same time.

and their is no single founder of israel to speak of, as no single man founds a nation, unless you believe the angry man in the sky crap, in which case your still wrong, as abraham nor jacob created israel of then or now.

but thanks for showing us the lengths of absurdity you are willing to go in order to sell your bigotry.

its the exact same position. maybe you should cut down on your own wares crack

nope and the fact that you fail to see it is just awesome.but remember when called stupid to be offended rather than you yourself choosing to not be stupid.

never miss an opportunity for moral inversion.

yes the jews, even the woman and children waged war on germany with a boycott, cuz it isnt like their were jews who didnt boycott, and the jews born after that, as well as the jews in other european countries were clearly to blame for it.

and when mlk and gandhi used boycotts it was also an act of war, not civil disobediance.

oops, i forgot different standards for jews.

"... instigated social upheaval all over Germany through economic boycott..."???
Hardly.

This was no cause of social upheaval in Germany -- Germany had plenty of other far, far bigger causes of social upheaval to worry about than a bunch of protesters in some foreign land demanding a boycott of their goods.

It made for a very (in)famous Daily Express headline, though.

6 million written about decades prior to the war. Your thoughts, and you thoughts as to why I should be imprisoned for this historical inquiry.

My thoughts on that figure appearing in decades-older news?
Sounds like you just shot yourself in the foot, there, maasanova.

Given the latest research (as outlined in the article) it may well be that the figures (if known at all) were rounded down to a scale that an already traumatised people could cope with.

Historians have been cautious not to include anything that could not be proven and documented. Maybe too cautious, as this article suggests.

As to your other question:
Nobody gets imprisoned for "historical enquiry".
Historical enquiry, as this article illustrates, is welcome.

The German laws you presumably refer to are about "denial" -- not about "enquiry".

These laws are in place to protect the families of the (well documented) victims from further suffering through posthumous defamation and libel.

They are also there to protect against the exact same "Jewish conspiracy"/"Jewish lies" nonsense that led down that abysmal path in the first place.

Well, you offered a good explaination for this recent attempt of historical revisionism by the media, but you really didn't explain why the 6 million number was being bantied about decades before even began and why it was often tied to fundraising efforts.

Few periods in history have been so thoroughly researched and documented, maasnova.

The fact that it took place is irrefutably proven. The only unknown is the exact number of victims.

Holocaust deniers use this uncertainty in an absurd attempt to deny the Holocaust ever took place at all.

No doubt you could come up with an equally “sinister” coincidence in some unrelated newspaper article from decades before if you chose any other frequently cited figure, such as 4.5 million, or 5 million or 5.6 million or 7 million.
You would still be just as wrong.

Other well documented atrocities, too, have only “estimated” numbers of victims – yet you don’t see anyone suggesting that they never happened.

It’s obvious that Holocaust deniers are just trying to fan the flames of the same old “Jewish conspiracy” / “Jewish lies” myth that led to countless pogroms in the past.

"Few periods in history have been so thoroughly researched and documented, maasnova."

You may be right, but this is the only historical topic that will get you thrown into prison, get your fired from your job, have others who disagree with you harrass your employers about you, have others who disagree with you physically attack you, vandalize your home and even have you killed!

The dozens of 6 million Jews articles are incredibly perplexing, but important findings. They are like the BBC reporter who appeared on a New York newscast and told us how the WTC 7 building had collapsed when it was standing in the background behind her.

There is no answer or response to be offered. The evidence just sort of speaks for itself.

Besides, if the Germans had repeatedly written about 6 million Jews decades before the war in various newspaper articles, there is no doubt that the USHM and Holocaust promoters would be using this to support their research.

It's no surprise that Holocaust promoters wish to ignore, downplay or even censor this research from their version of history.

That is pure hyperbole, maasanova.
What would really “…get you thrown into prison, get your fired from your job… harrass your employers about you… physically attack you, vandalize your home and even have you killed!” in the 30s and 40s was being a communist, socialist, social democrat, trade unionist, Jew, Roma, Sinti, gay, disabled, resistance member, etc. The comparison you make is insulting.

Holocaust denial is indeed an offence in some European countries – but as I explained to you before, this legislation is in place to defend families against slander/libel and prevent incitement to hate crimes. It has nothing whatsoever to do with silencing historical research or discussion of the topic. On the contrary. The research is ongoing and the topic is still much discussed.

People seek conspiracy theories everywhere. The figures you cite from earlier newspaper reports really have nothing to do with anything very much, except perhaps as estimates of a certain demographic self-identifying as Jewish at that time.

By contrast, the countless people who died in the camps and ghettos, or through forced labour, mass shootings and death marches, cannot always be defined within any such narrow demographic. Sometimes they belonged to more than one of those categories.

The classification of individuals as “Jewish” (another point I mentioned to you earlier) was broadened under the Nazis, who shifted the focus from religion to race (“blood”).
As a result, many people who were secular / non-religious or even completely unaware of their Jewish roots (however tenuous) found themselves forced to wear the yellow star / deported. Similarly, POWs initially captured as “enemy combatants” faced death if deemed to be Jewish, etc.

The seething cauldron of hatred and slaughter that simmered all across a huge continent, engulfing at least twenty countries, almost defies belief.

And that, perhaps, is precisely why people such as yourself prefer not to believe it at all, but seek solace in conspiracy theories instead.

and remember when pointed out how disgusting your attempts at revisionism are, that if you put your tin foil hat on you will feel better

Isn't the article in cooplanet's original post blatant revisionism?

I suppose I'm less interested in your ususal ad hominem attacks and gibberish and more interested in why the 6 million number was used dozens of times decades before WW2 even began.

Kristallnacht occurred in November 1938, several years before WWII. 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps in one day.
Do the math.

nope, it isnt blatant revisionism, as it is part of the truth and simply expands on that, as opposed to trying to revise what happened.

that is your arena, trying to both claim what happened didnt happen, and then when you have to admit it did happen, that is was the fault of the victims.that is the sick revisionism.

you are less interested in what anyone has to say based on facts, and always more interested in what ever feeds your already prescribed narrative.

that is one of the trade marks of racists and why you are cited repeatedly by pretty much everyone as such.

but remember its not you.its the evil zionist lobby who has turned everyone against you, cuz only you have the ability o think.

Math?

How do you arrive at 6 million decades before WW2 even began even taking Kristallnacht into account? Fortune telling?

Address the issue: 6 million written about dozens of times decades before it happened. Why? And why was the 6 million often tied to fund raising efforts or obtaining no interest-bearing loans?

he didnt arrive at 6 million before ww2.

get a grown up if you need help sounding out the larger words.

it isnt an issue, like all the crap you peddle isnt an actual issue, just more of your pathetic attempts at finding some way to validate the conclusion you want, as opposed to what actually is.

their are endless sources of jews claiming their needs to be 2 million,3 million,4 million,5 million, and yes 6 million jews in order to accomplish any number of goals these groups sought.

what doesnt change is that their are 6 million noncombatants who were alive before germany ran amock, who ceased to exist after.

no matter what other sources use what ever numbers to what ever end.this simple fact doesnt change.

just as it hasnt in your last dozen attempts at holocaust denial.

which lemme tell ya does a great service in showing how not racist you are.thanks again

And their goals for floating 6 million Jews decades before the was for what? To raise $1 billion dollars? That was a hellava chunk of change back in 1918 lol

hey this is your racist dance, dont ask me to feed you the strain of bullshit you are looking for.

im content with reality, i dont need to revise as you do.

as far as im concerned i already covered it.

How is the article "blatant revisionism"?
Since you yourself appear to question whether the numbers are correct -- surely you should welcome any research that clarifies the figures.

The USHM is trying to revise the numbers of the dead killed (or death by illnesses) in concentration camps from the 6 million (as reported in various news reports including the NY Times decades prior to the beginning of the war) to be upwards of 15-20 million now. That's true historical revisionism.

And they don't even cite any evidence in the article to prove their claims you have to buy a $300 book for their research! Now that's hutzpah lol

What's going on with the Palestinians and Israel is a very far cry from what happened during the holocaust. Is Israel behaving badly right now? Yes. Returning hi-powered artilery because of rock throwing is way overboard. Israel has endured Zero peace from the Palestinians since it was granted statehood in 1948. Suicide bombers in their towns, blowing up filled buses - those were a daily occurence. Payback is a bitch. But there has never been a purposeful rounding up and slaughter of a group of people in this scale at any time in history, and to let it be forgotten is to be doomed to allow it to happen again. Even as we speak there are still those who honor Hitler and wish they could do what he did. There's some even on this chat room. The bigots and racists are here in droves today. They're the ones pushing for anarchy, total freedom of government regulation and all that crap. That's just about how Hitler got his start. Promises that turned into fascism once he won election.

well they arent as the palestinian population has only grown under israel.

it helps to know what you are talking about.

How can you possibly equate "anarchists" with "those who honor Hitler".
That's extremely offensive to the memory of those who resisted the Nazis.
Hitler crushed the anarcho-syndicalist movement in Berlin, Cologne, the Rheinland and the Ruhr as viciously and relentlessly as he did all other political opposition.
Please retract that insult.

i agree entirely.

all it takes is legit education, and then nothing here is shocking.it isnt like their is a basis to think nazi policy in lodz would be different in warsaw and they had all of europe, where 6 million jews were removedrom existance while germany was at war and obviously couldnt spare bullets.

to be surprised at any of this is to confron your own ignorance of history.

the next step is to learn the stuff the rest of us have that you didnt.not you personally im just saying

it doesnt.

the holocaust doesnt matter to them, unless they are exploiting it for their own other talking points.then it is an attrocity that should be a guide to us all as to what to avoid.but if not linked to a specific talking point then fuck the jews.

welcome to being a yid in a world that isnt

"The number of Jews killed is often listed at around six million.... the death toll should be revised upward....This latest research is yet another piece of evidence that can be used to refute the fringe movement that continues to deny the Holocaust took place, or that its terrible legacy has been exaggerated for political gain."

Yes, that's exactly it.

That's the main reason the numbers have, until now, been very conservatively estimated -- historians such as Raoul Hilberg have often said as much -- precisely to prevent those nutjobs from having any leeway to claim "exaggeration" or, in some cases, complete denial it ever happened.

Eventually, the truth will out.

ya think so?

the truth wins out?

cuz im pretty sure the opposite is true, and our best understanding of history is archialogical happenstance which we compare against the bible.

which in the end is truth not winning out and history being recorded by the jews in regards to what they experienced, as the rest didnt bother.i see this being the same thing.

a thousand years from now most people wont know of the holocaust, and jews will know of it as it is part of our grand history that we keep record of, just like everything else in history.

You caught me out there, freecrack.
I actually added that last sentence later, as an afterthought (don't we just love the "edit" feature here?) more in hope and optimism than anything else.

However, it is possible -- but certainly not within the lifetimes of those affected.

i hope/wish you are right.

but pragmatically i dont see it.

we are getting better at recording history, but in the end the tragedy that befalls others is their own history.we dont learn lessons from rwanda or anyplace else.only what happens to us.and the holocaust for a myriad of reasons is what happened to the jews, not to us, so it too is not part of what matters to us.

shit we still dont adress our own issues with the native americans.

america will come and go, and our history will be like any other empire.like the roman aquaducts and road systems, our innovations to the world will be remembered and credited to us, but the rest will give way to others, and the holocaust will remian as the thing that happened to the jews for the jews to remember.

like i said i hope im wrong, but i dont think i am

"...the tragedy that befalls others is their own history..."

Hm. That might explain some of the conversations seen here and on other US websites regarding this issue. For most Europeans, this IS our own history.

The "truth" to some extent has already been buried.

Yes, the Nazis were meticulous bookkeepers.
But in spite of that, many records were (no less meticulously) destroyed by the Nazis when defeat seemed imminent.
Many records were also destroyed by the Allied bombings.
Still more records were destroyed/swept under the carpet (postwar) out of sheer opportunism and a quest for "stability".

Add to that the fact that not all of the twenty-odd European countries shipping slave labour into the Reich kept records as carefully the Germans did -- and that even the Germans themselves probably didn't bother recording all those "shipments" of "subhuman" labour in detail.

It all adds up to a very, very murky set of statistics that will probably never be fully documented or proven.

And that, unfortunately, helps to stoke the fires of the deniers.

it should be our history, as our culture is adopted from european roots.the same ones that lead to the holocaust.but it isnt ours, as we dont own it.it is left for the jews.

read the comments of maasanova above, if you stomache for it, as it is the example

Grandpa Bush.

Yes -- that's the problem: "But the fact remains: Deniers are liars."
That's why they should not, cannot, be given the same ammunition ("liars") but must always be confronted with indisputable facts. It has always been thus. Kudos to the researchers coming up with still more proof, even after all these years.

Charles Lindburgh.

I have to look that name up.

You're joking, right? Please look it up. He was a Nazi sympathizer and anti-semite. First man to fly a plane across the Atlantic, The Spirit of St. Louis.

Try this.
"Even after the Nazis' Kristallnacht pogrom, and even after Hitler's dismemberment of Czechoslovakia and annexation of Austria, Lindbergh continued to make excuses for the Nazis. "Germany has pursued the only consistent policy in Europe in recent years," he wrote in an April 1939 diary entry, refusing to acknowledge the evil nature of the Hitler regime. "The question of right and wrong is one thing by law and another thing by history."
http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2003-11-lindbergh.php

I have to save this for another day. The one I was reading really gave me bad yuck in my throat. He was a racist and that makes me sick. People are people no matter color or type of religious belief. The damage to ourselves and the earth will continue until the planet is unlivable or all the humans stop thinking they are more important than another. As I looked at Google earth today I saw what has been done with logging to the beautiful forests I grew up in here in Oregon. Than I went to the Redwoods and was horrified to see protected areas that have been stripped in the last 15 years.

George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, Henry Ford, and Thomas Watson, founder of IBM, were all Nazi sympathizers.

Lindbergh was also a philander, he had a second family in Germany.

Tee-Hee! I purposely ignored that part primarily because men in general seem to have a problem with keeping their pants zipped or being 100% loyal to their own families, and it crosses all party lines, racial, religious and ethnic lines, so I just scratch those talking points off to "men will be men."

Yep. Very much so. Many have photos have been taken with them and Hitler.

Maybe I shouldn't mention it, but look at what's happened to the Rain Forest and jungles in South America. Wildlife down there is losing their habitat even faster than first believed. If it is allowed to continue, the rainforest will become a dessert.

Thanks for the link wolf. I'm saving it for later 'cause I have to go grocery shopping. I've put it off for 3 days already 'cause it's been so damned cold here lately, not rising about 60 during the warmest part of the day, and I've been sneezing and sniffling the whole time cause the nights are way colder than usual. Normally I never have to run my heat, now it's been on for 3 days straight. We're getting one day, tomorrow, where it's supposed to get back up to "maybe" 70, but another coldwave is right behind it.

Manatees can't survive in this cold weather. So yeah, there are some really drastic climate changes going on here. Northerners who come down here for fun in the sun are leaving because it's too damned cold. And in all probability, instead of the highs in summertime not going much past 90, for the past three years have been steadily bouncing between 96 and 100.

But I'm not going to let anyone scare me away with their b.s. I'll keep fighting the "destroyers" til my dying breath. Just like you.