Universal Healthcare map

hpseaton, your comment is spot on and sometimes the real story is what may crack the stubborn people who are fighting healthcare reform. I truly believe these people who oppose such change are either working for the right wing or insurance company's and after a quick buck.

He couldn't possibly want something that his Natural Selection was totally against.

I honestly cannot believe the exchange that just took place here.

Darwin observed the FACT of natural selection, he wasn't an advocate for it.

No more than the person who first documented the mating procedure of a Praying Mantis was an advocate for cannibalism. No more than Einstein's observation of nuclear interactions make him an advocate for nuclear apocalypse.

This is professional idiocy, you guys deserve a standing ovation. And then a kick in the balls.

and point goes to...Saladin.

England has had theirs since after WWII and I don't seem them hurting in the economic department.

Oh well..logic is lost on many.

You (seaton) need to learn the difference between valid logic and sound logic.

His logic is both valid and sound.

And even if he did need to learn what that means, that wouldn't make his argument incorrect.

How hard would it have been to point out the weaknesses in those systems as a warning to being too eager to jump into them? Could it be that there practically aren't any (especially when compared to what we have now)?

Neocons say a lot more with their silence than they do with their boisterous noise.

lol...Ares I suppose you are here to school me on the difference between valid logic and sound logic? I've read some of your posts so this could be fun.

valid: founded on truth or fact; capable of being justified or defended
sound: free from error; right;

hmmm...go for it.

saladin - who said I was a neocon?

seaton - Canada, for example, has had universal health care since about the 40's as well. They are also suffering grueling if not fatal delays in treatment. The rising cost of providing this health care is causing the Canadian government to choke medical supplies. This means fewer doctors, fewer hospitals, fewer specialists, and more sparse coverage.

It isn't all it's cracked up to be. Universal health care will not end our nation's poor health. Damned if I'm going to pay for the 2/3 of our country that is fat as shit to keep simply existing every day. Damned if I'll pay for the thousands of kids that are "diagnosed" with AD(H)D every year just because their parents didn't feel like making a conscious effort to ensure their child payed attention.

Wait...hold the bus, Ares. You were calling me out on my logic and then you use Canada as your argument on the state of my logic?

What, exactly, in my previous post caused you such concern in my logic? Are you positing that England hasn't had universal healthcare since WWII or that I was incorrect in the state of their economy?

their taxes are up 30-35% of their income and that is usally just the middle class. also they have a growing homeless problem that is rivialing the US. So if healthcare is universal in the US most likely our taxes will take a hike.

How so?

Maybe because peoples health is important, and healthy people are more productive.

Peoples health is important. I guess that's why we have so many eating problems.
Peoples health is important. I guess that's why both parent's usually have to work to keep up with the bills, not having enough time for their own families. This adds a load of stress which leads to blood pressure and pre-natel issues (according to the AMA).
Peoples health is important. I guess that's why for decades we never cared enough to get our congress to stop passing laws that inhibit the cost of healthcare to actually go down.
Peoples health is important. I guess that's why so many people cannot afford healthcare but can afford a new big screen TV and other assorted nonsense.
Peoples health is important. I guess that's why we buy every drug we can to heal us instead of taking basic care of ourselves.

And I apologize. I was not meaning to be snappy. I am just sick and tired of people blaming insurance companies (which do their share of cheating to), and refusing to address the above issues as well.
I detest the idea that people feel so trapped in a situation that they seek the quickest, easiest way out without fully addressing the problems. This leads to short term booms and longer term poverty etc.

It is indeed noble to help others, I agree. Yet you cannot help those who do not want to work harder to help themselves. I work very hard, and my healthcare consists of an annual checkup when mandated by my insurance company. Its all I need. I am not an exception either. I just fail to see how so many others in these rallies are standing up and shouting, taking time away from work to lobby the govt for healthcare that they are told is cheap.

Healthy people are more productive. Not necessarily. I met a lot of people who are in great shape who contribute absolutely nothing.

I do not like how the government is not honest about the cost involved.

Lastly, no noble idea can be implemented if the benefactors themselves are in debt. 'Becasue all these other nations are doing it' reminds me of the old saying 'well if they jumped off of a bridge, would you jump too?'

There's a big (BIG) difference between affording a big screen tv and affording $100,000 cancer treatment.

Comes down to sharing. Sad when, in America, there has to be a fight to share resources so that everyone has a chance to have a healthy life.

davids,

I think you're forgetting consumerist culture or particularly what capitalism has made the american citizen into. People will vote/protest against their own interest to buy a tv, car, or whatever crap you can buy because they were told since childhood this means you're successful. People will vote against a healthcare system safety net that would help them in case of emergency without impoverishing them, and a higher education system that will produce a highly educated populace because they have made shopping into a religion. They didn't invent this religion but they certainly listen to the sermons.
Now for helping people who wont help themselves, does that mean we should punish their children as well? I should go on asking not everyone can be a 400k wage earner, and knowing that must be a little daunting in society of massive class differences. There is no honor in poverty, squalor, barely surviving, or "getting by"..

Healthy people can potentially contribute something, whereas the guy dying of cancer isn't in the position to do so. I'm not sure what you were proposing with that comment.

I don't think everyones thinks like this, but the fact that anyone below the rich class thinks this way makes my head spin.

that is outrageous. I wonder if Halliburton was contracted to provide that healthcare. Or maybe some other Bush crony capitalism thug corporation.

republicans think it's alright to use our money to provide universal healthcare to foreigners in the middle east, but not our own citizens? man, if only their voters knew about that

Big difference between communism and socialism. But your right anyway, we are headed more toward fascism.

How so? Please explain since you have made that stupid statement. Fascism is a word that should never be used lightly.

how about corporatism?

“corporatism is a tricky word. It’s been around for a long, long time, and it has come to have a few different meanings.

One of those meanings is an older traditional meaning that has its roots way back in the days of European feudalism and represents the way that different socio-economic classes used to organize themselves so they would be included in state politics.

But… there is another more modern, pejorative meaning that is generally accepted to refer to the way in which today’s corporations, aided by a willing government via legislation and unrestricted lobbying, are growing in power and influence at the expense of the public’s welfare.”

http://brownsludge.com/2006/01/30/corporatism-vs-capitalism/

Its all one big loss in my book

Wrong a roonie Pro. Even Cuba has national healthcare.

I can't wait to see them outpace the US if things don't change here.

Wiley c.

If these companies do outdo us, it will not be because of healthcare, but the poor economic policies we have pursued for almost 100 years now.

Outpace the US? You think so? Please explain how you see this as being possible due solely to the healthcare issue.

India has a billion people. Their health care very well could bankrupt them like France and Britain and Canada are having money issues with theirs.

It's not me just stating something off the cuff. Their populations are less than by mass amount. If they are having problems, so will India.