What Obama and BP Are Hiding From the General Public - Oil Volcano Unstoppable

--------"It is better to light a candle rather than curse the darkness." -------

Not on top of a gigantic oil slick it isn't.

@ futuregen------very good explanation---it sounds very plausible to me.

Thank you for coming to save the day with your pearls of wisdom without ever reading the entire thread...we already knew what you are posting. Wickstrom is a looser, but their are links below that point to the real science. Why are you getting all hysterical about Wickstrom? Your missing the greater point that there are serious doubts about the ability of technology to contain the massive pressure of the oil gusher.

They never will be able to tap in to it because you can't control the uncontrollable, no matter how much you might wish it so.

Are you taking your meds?

Isn't that what a relief well is, another well into the same source?

I have a British friend that send me the 14 page Senate letter send to Tony Hayward (BP CEO). In the letter they detailed the failures on the Macondo well; the casing was only stabilised with 6 centralisers, instead of the 21 recommended by Haliburton, this allows for poor cementing and gas blowby. They failed to circulate one complete mud volume as required. The used a single long string completion insted of multilpe casing strings individually cemented to provide borehole stability. Drilling activities were re-written on the rig instead of falling best practices, as supplied by their vendors. There were a number of other issues, but it would just bore everyone for me to repeat. Hopefully, they will not repeat these mistakes on the relief wells.

As luck would have it I do happen to be a landlord in Minnesota, which is about as far from the ocean as you can physically get in north america.

The job market isn't fantastic in Minnesota but it's not all that bad compared to the rest of the country. I've been trying to get my sister to move out of Florida for years. The medical system there is unbelievably shitty and is probably going to kill her eventually. That's what you get for living in Bush country though.

Hey man, I was born here.

My condolences. You want ignoble birth places I am originally from North Dakota. Worse even than Florida. There's nothing like the overpowering odor of hundreds of acres ofrotting sugar beet pulp to wake you up in the morning. I swear there were days you could taste the stuff on the back of your throat all over town. I think it's one reason I can't handle being a vegetarian.

Jeb Bush wasn't born in Florida, but it hasn't changed the fact hat he wrecked the medical care there. Not kidding about the dying part BTW. The family is arranging for her to come up to Minnesota for a month this summer to see a real doctor. It's that bad.

Oh cry me the Missouri river.

missouri isn't that bad that I've seen. Got a step brother that lives out there. Those guys grow sugar beets too?

As for the boo hoo bit when your sister is rushed to the hospital because she spent 15 minutes unconscious on the floor aspirating her own vomit because of misperscribed medication, and would have died had not her girlfriend of 10 years (whom she is not allowed to marry) broken into her house to save her you can come back and make fun of me

No worries. I understand the trick to surviving salt lake is to hang with the punk crowd. They've got a lot to rebel against in Utah.

I'm sorry to hear that. Give her (and her girlfriend) a hug for me.

Bombastinator, I must confess you are quite a puzzling mystery to me.
You share, often times quite eloquently, painful experiences and insights that would by any reading come from a person wounded by the current system and quite conscious of its everyday crimes. One would imagine, therefore, as your comments are public, you as an active progressive. Yet so many of your comments over time have seemed, (if you'll forgive my bluntness) frequently reactionary or purposefully posing as uncaring.
Perhaps this is the forum to work that apparent contradiction out in some way.
If so, good for us all. I apologize if you find this comment too personal or intrusive.

u r floridian aswell?

not to say bombastinator isnt a hyperbole machine, but florida does have an honest to god retarded health care system.so much so its kind of like gang wars between doctors, without the violence.this practice hates that practice each talking shit about the other, urgicenters taking the plce of hospitals, pain management facilities taking the place of urgicenters.
its kind oflike florida decided to be the test case to answer the question"what would health care look like if we just said fuck it, at let capitalism come first, in every concievable way"
florida is one of those places (from first hand experience) that will take someone 3 months pregnant in an e.r. first,cuz of good insurance,over someone complaining of chest pain,(me) who has so-so insurance.
its like bizarro world in terms of healthcare

That and the high Humidity are great reasons not to live there in my view,never liked Florida even in the winter which is the only time of the year it's not a steam bath! The state government could care less about people it's all about profit for the rich! If it fell into the ocean I'd not miss it or care either! The south in general is backward socially and politically and always has been!

Born and raised... We're all going to die.

Nah, it's fine. I'm a fairly progressive Democrat with little patience for the transparent , self serving, and often utterly foolish machinations of the Limbaughs and Becks of the right wing propaganda machine. But I also by association have just as little patience for the same techniques being used anywhere else either.
Generally when I disagree with a leftist cause here I am taking issue more with the methodology of the argument than the actual cause. There are some exceptions. I am also a cynic a curmudgeon and a pragmatist. As such there are a few progressive causes that are simply too starry eyed and poorly thought out for me to be able to stomach.
In particular I think Peta. And it's associated forced evangelical veganism is one of the silliest and while not the most abusive religion ever created certainly not the least. They're not nearly as bad as say Scientology abuse wise, but they're worse than the Catholics.
I think the G20 protesters don't even actually know themselves what they are protesting, and as a cohesive group their arguments are less well structured than even the creationist crowd, which is really saying something. As much as I would like to hand the idiots on parade prize to the tea baggers all they Have to do is point at the G20 protesters and I am forced to walk away dragging my feet.
I also have a thing for junk science. My dad was a research scientist, and I was raised amongst academia. I know what it can and cannot do and have tremendous respect for science in general. As such it irritates me when I see it misused for any reason. I have similar feelings about journalism as well which I think is part of the problem I have with right-wing media.

That help at all?

...and taxed. Don't forget taxed. They're really the only two things we can be sure of as the old saying goes.

im sorry your life was spent in gods waiting room.
but hey you got to grow up with sunsets i used to only see on tv.
its a trade off i guess

I can't disagree with any of that.
I'm not in tune enough with PETA to have an really informed opinion about them. Generally I recognize that we slaughter things every day to live, but I think I would appreciate any movement to making the factory food we are all often forced to eat mutate to system far more safe and less toxic all around.
As you can tell by my posts, I trust science far more than my fellow man.
I view all of us as being predatory monkeys but some as being far more psychotic and objectionable than others.
Play on, my friend.

Well I don't pretend to be anything but objectionable, But I like to think I am reasonably clear headed.

I know... cocksuckers.. (I never said I wasn't petty)

I was the one who added it to comedy, not the administration.

For a very good reason.

Did you see who the reference was?! The ultra right wing neonazi evangelical minister fuckwad James P. Wickstrom.

this has nothing to do with reality and is all about an attempt to smear the democrats with the issue. The "experts" are not named. The issue might even be real but from this article I'd say it's unlikely.

@bombastinator...So you have the power to move a story from /news/"story name" to /entertainment/comedy/"story name"?

Is that what you are saying, or that you added it to the comedy group?

One thing is to add it to another group, while moving something entirely from one category to another is not.

Also it has been acknowledged very clearly that Wickstrom is a nutcase, but you failed to acknowledge or comment on the link that Vierotchka provided that is entirely based in science and not on what Wickstrom said. He may be a complete basket case, but many of the things he claims are based on what some scientists are talking about as being within the realm of possibilities.

Your not even a moderator of the comedy group, so I doubt very much that you have that kind of power on Current.

Apparently everyone does. I added the comedy group and the thing moved. It's probably automatic. I honestly don't think that the administration cares that much about the content here to actually move something.

I maintain that the move was appropriate though. The guy really is a joke.

You want the topic to be treated seriously post an article with serious people in it. No, really. No one is stopping you. The guy that posted it though wasn't really interested in the topic though. IMHO he was just trying to tie the Obama administration to the disaster, and using whatever he could find to do it, real or not.

did ya notice the american jihadi story, wich was just a vieled advertisement for the vanguard special, lingered around number 15 on the front page in the news section, despite having almost no comments,hmmmmmmm curious no?

Ok relax take a deep breath.

You know, I had been thinking the same thing since hearing about a similar spill in the gulf in the late 70's. They tried all the same remedies they used this time around, capping, mud & concrete, etc. But the only thing that worked were the relief wells.

Difference is that was at 1000' this time we are at 5000'. So how much longer will the well take to drill. How much more oil can we really take. Anyone even a scientist who tries to tell me "this is what will happen" can kiss my ass, because you do not know! It has never happened before on this scale. You are hypothesizing at best.

And if this scenario where even half true, your government would never tell you for fear of the peoples reaction.

Show us the data.

Ok first of all it takes time to drill the relief wells, they told us all along it would be sometime in August.

What data? Show me your data.

They did test a few days ago and the drills are on target to hit the well and redirect the oil flow. Don't forget oil is organic in nature and will eventually be eaten up by naturally occurring bacteria. We just have to keep as much oil off of the shore as possible. From what I have seen the oil is staying in the ocean so time will have to heal this as well. But don't worry, it's not the end of the world, you'll be fine and life will go on, you'll tell your grandkids about the BP spill of 2010 and they will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Gulf Oil Gusher: Danger of Tsunamis From Methane?

London, UK - 21st June 2010, 11:55 GMT

Dear ATCA Open & Philanthropia Friends

[Please note that the views presented by individual contributors are not necessarily representative of the views of ATCA, which is neutral. ATCA conducts collective Socratic dialogue on global opportunities and threats.]

Updated with a References section on June 24th, 2010 at 23:30 BST:

A new and less well known asymmetric threat has surfaced in the Gulf of Mexico oil gusher. Methane or CH4 gas is being released in vast quantities in the Gulf waters. Seismic data shows huge pools of methane gas at the location immediately below and around the damaged "Macondo" oil well. Methane is a colourless, odourless and highly flammable substance which forms a major component in natural gas. This is the same gas that blew the top off Deepwater Horizon and killed 11 people. The "flow team" of the US Geological Survey estimates that 2,900 cubic feet of natural gas, which primarily contains methane, is being released into the Gulf waters with every barrel of oil. The constant flow of over 50,000 barrels of crude oil places the total daily amount of natural gas at over 145 million cubic feet. So far, over 8 billion cubic feet may have been released, making it one of the most vigorous methane eruptions in modern human history. If the estimates of 100,000 barrels a day -- that have emerged from a BP internal document -- are true, then the estimates for methane gas release might have to be doubled.

Honestly I'm not terribly troubled by fear of a human apocalypse, the Earth will keep keepin on! Sucks for the the kids, but we've had a good run! My real problem is people talking with such certainty and expertise on something that has never happened before. I look for the angle in everything and I can't see one here. It's just f*cked.

BP, the federal gov't, and the Gulf states were all caught flat footed. Nobody had any viable emergency plans in place. There is no way this should ever happen again, but it will. Everyone loses on this one: except Halliburton who did buy Boots and Coots, one of the contractors working on the clean up. In fact I'll re-post the story...

ill show you my data, if you show me yours wink wink

I am calling you crazy because the west coast also sits close to major fault lines and is prone to earthquakes. This type of drilling has already been shown to have an effect on the frequency of earth tremors and doing this in California would be incredibly stupid.

Now if you want geothermal energy for all our best bet is yellowstone national park. Low population and the heat is near the surface.

HAY, I can feel you dude. I’m all for solar and wind and peace love dove too. But, we need power! I am not going back to the Hippy Dippy concept of plowing our fields with a Ox, wearing a loan cloth, and stomping mud clogs flat with bare feet. Environmentalists can be so over the top, okay, lets just call them stupid and ridicules. I AM AN ENVIRONMENTALIST, BUT I’M NOT A HIPPY!
You cannot get the water in Yellowstone “crazy.” “This type of drilling has already been shown to have an effect on the frequency of earth tremors…” No one has ever done this type of drilling, duh. As for earthquakes California put a nuclear power plant right on the coast, and one in Sacramento, both are subject to meltdown due to earthquake. The whole I design can actually contain a heat chamber inside the original pipe lined whole, with a 50 foot swing radius in case of earthquake. One thing for sure, if this cracks up, it won’t be melting down. Power is everything. With power, what cannot be done? With power we can have a nation state that save for the mountains, national forests, parks and wilderness, etc. can be one big city eventually with 10 billion inhabitants. IF YOU WANT THE US TO BE STRONG AGAIN, WE NEED POWER, CHEAP POWER. Imagine a group of engineers 20 years from now saying, gee all those materials are expensive for that bridge. But they agree that at least power is cheap!

I have wondered about such a thing. It seems logical enough.

None of this is new but your math is still bad. 70 miles may as well be 10000. The world record for drilling i something like 2 miles. And that was fairly recent and pushed the levels of technology as far as they would go.

You CAN get energy out of a two mile deep hole though because at that depth the rock is over 150 degrees Fahrenheit. that heat can be sued to heat homes, if not run turbines.

The space shuttle material would not work for two reasons: One the stuff is pretty soft, and number 2 it still melts. The special ability of that ceramic is NOT that it resists heat. It is that it absorbs and releases heat very very slowly. You can heat a tile up in a 2000 degree furnace and then pull it out and hold it with your fingers. But the thing will stay hot for days afterward.

I agree with ezierin , most of the states can drill for geothermal energy and that it is reusable, clean, and can be implamented throught out the states (with all the oil drilling expirence we can drill just about anything). i have always liked the thought of geothermal energy.

I’ll admit sometimes I have a problem describing what I see in my head, so let me say; Other drilling methods may have only gone the 2 miles, but there is nothing stopping this. This uses the same, but modified, technology they used to dig the tunnels I mentioned, each about 32 miles. This time we would just be headed down, not relatively horizontally. I am visualizing the tiles in a different way then you. For one thing they would never be touched with the tunnel pipe on the way down and they would be insulated by water. But another material better suited it the stresses can work to. Nice thing is, we are just hammering details here.

My coastal geothermal plant would be like hundreds of Hoover Dams, but smaller geothermal is straight up too.

Steel melts at 2750 F. Jet fuel ignition point 549 5 F, other fuels highest temp ignition point 1382 F. So how exactly did all that steel explode/melt at the world trade center? Oh yeah that was nanothermite, something only the military has. Interesting how all that steel was quickly moved to China...

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

The chunnel used two railway based tunneling machines not one, so each actually only wnt half that distance. The devices themselves depending on rock type can drill as slow as a foot a day, and if you are drilling straight down it is ALL bedrock. Seventy miles at a foot a day. 4280 feet in am mile, and 365 days in a year. So using current technology that's around 800 years in a worst case.

the thought is fantastic. it's the technology that's a bitch. Thermal solar is going to be easier to implement. Thermal solar backed up by geothermal could be very interesting though. The big problem with thermal solar is keeping the really efficient working fluids like liquid sodium hot enough to be functional overnight and during overcast days.

Great points. I agree.

I like new technology. Have faith in your brain.

Hey, wind and sun is perfect too. We will need it all, more and more forever and ever! The more power, the more we can create. I'm with you!

Think it's kinda like a hose without an attachment... if the water is on it's hard to put on the sprayer....

I agree. The ramifications of the depth at which this hole is, limits the ability to plug it. Plus everybody's mother, uncle and brother have to agree for the proceeder to be OKed let alone to be actually tried. It's a royal FUBAR.

No, once the cat is out of the bag, its near impossible to get him back in.

Ever tried to control a volcano's eruption?

They actually control pressure while drilling by pumping mud back down the bore hole

The volcano analogy is appropriate in this context because, who can stop a volcano from erupting?

God? Duh....

Or uhh... A nuke.

Volcanoes are seldom in eruption for longer than a month or so - hence, the analogy is wrong.

That's actually plausable....the oil turns to a solid gunk and can be picked up out of the water.

Most of it is under water, so you cannot set it all on fire - only the tiny percentage that is floating on the surface could perhaps be set on fire.