Zeitgeist: Addendum

"But I wonder what they would gain from making up stuff? I don't think it's false information, but it might be sensationalized to get the viewer riled up."

It's not material gain, but they are influencing how a large number of people think by advancing an anti-capitalist/pro-communist argument. That in itself is something to gain by many people's standards.

As far if it's false information. Some, if not many of the facts can be true, but the analysis and interpretation can still be wrong.

"money=debt" is an incorrect analysis as well as the description of banks generating revenue by extending credit beyond what they physically have. This film does not distinguish "money" from "credit".

Also, whenever something is sensationalized, pay extra close attention. A reasonable argument does not need to play on one's emotions.

not 10 min ago I was thinking about paying the $10,000 billion we no that's $60,000 billion we owe to some entity (have not seen it yet)

may be they can bail US out with some of the $30,000 billion they still have if my #s are correct?

money= power= control

i dont need a 9 to 5 job to tell me HOW IN CONTROL I AM.

so...yes I believe in a money free society, how can something that gets people killed can be good for humanity?, but well we have to wait for close minded control freaks to evolve in order to get there...

Having some power and control over your own life is a GOOD thing. Your generalized statements are not.

Money, like power, like technology, is ethically neutral. It's people that are evil, not money.

And why is it that when people are confronted by a logical argument that disagrees with their beliefs, that they attack the person and not the logic.

Just because I'm not on board with your world-view doesn't mean I'm a "close minded control freak".

Hi Synethse =)

Well ummm lol, so yeah . . . I wasn't addressing you, as you've already noticed. But, no worries. =)

Since you stated that you are new . . . if you don't already know, you can edit or delete any posts that were mistakenly written. So, welcome to Current.com! =)

I of course am going to disagree with you and challenge the logic behind your assertions (as they ARE flawed). If you wanted to rewrite them in a way less emotionally charged, feel free. If you think that they stand as they are, that is also cool.

As for a response to the basic ideas you put forward:

The concept of something-for-something is the backbone of all economic integrity and morality. The alternative, something-for-nothing, is charity at best and thievery at worst . . . neither of which hold integrity. I for one would be very insulted to be treated as a charity, I don't want a free hand out . . . it's demeaning.

I like that you encourage people to take pride in their work. Many people these days do not, nor do they take home a sense of dignity from it. Such people I think are missing a fundamental element of ethics.

However, more money does not = more debt. Having more money does not put you in debt, at all.

More CREDIT = more debt . . . and credit when properly applied as an investment can actually be a good thing. Abuse of credit is another whole thing, and both parties are usually at fault.

"People will do work without payment, in order to provide for a sustainable whole, as long as they are equal and free."

This assertion is flat out communist and is not correct for the following reasons:

Many many people will not work if they don't have to, as they don't give a damn about their neighbors or the whole in general. It is idealistic to the point of being delusional to think otherwise.

Also, it would require a fascist North Korean style brainwashed society for everyone to be on the same page and constantly agree on what to do to make a sustainable whole.

Lastly, people are very different from each other and in turn we are just not all equal. To think otherwise is idealistic and ignores the obvious differences that make some people special and others not. (be it charisma, intelligence, beauty, strength, whatever)

People often confuse this dismantling of their ideas as a personal attack, but it is not. I only look for logical truth. If you feel I have made an error I'd love to discuss it. Until then, welcome to Current. =)

lucid...now i want you to do me a favor...try and see it from the other side of the coin...Money is a mechanism for control...i know you live in the box when you say stuff like we couldnt do it without money...get out of your box man..its soooo sad to see people like yourself who truly believe they are free...you've been sold playa...and that dont come from the zeitgeist flicks.Do real homework not trying to find sources from movies...ask your own questions...find your own truth and if you cant understand that then i send my blessings over to you...

namaste

To: iamfree

When I was 19 I used to feel oppressed by always being constrained by needing money to do anything. But then I thought of the alternative, and society just wouldn't function without a system that quantifies value for goods and services.

You say I'm wrong, but you offer nothing in the way of an alternative solution that would actually work, nor do you show holes in my argument.

To: Synethse

Before the fertile crescent days, humans didn't live in dense populations. In small family/communal tribes where everyone knows each other, people can function quite well without a monetary system. But once there is the population density of cities, where every other person you meet is a stranger . . . then a monetary system is required, and has been required ever since.

The system only becomes slavery if you go along with the idea of consumerism and living beyond your means.

If you are a responsible individual than you always have a discretionary amount of income to make your own choices, to work what you want to work, to do what you want to do.

Some of our practices may be unsustainable, such as providing the excessive credit that led to the rapid inflation of housing, but that doesn't mean the entire system and concept of money is unsustainable.

As for the loaning of money to and by governments, it doesn't need to be replaced by more money, it can be repaid with commodities. Even the Zeitgeist video above says that in the second chapter.

The alternative you propose is communism and that just doesn't work for the reasons I mentioned in the above post. You will never get everyone on board with the idea without brainwashing society. Communism runs on idealism and is ultimately unproductive.

As for people not being equal, yes everyone regardless of if they are equal or not should be treated with respect. But we are still not equal, nor do we work equally.

The money we earn recognizes and rewards our work and distinguishes it from the person that is less productive.

"As for technology we are overdue for liberation from work period."

If there ever was a statement that indicated a person was a lazy and unproductive leach . . . this is it. There is a sense of dignity a person derives from honest and productive work, maybe you should try to find some.

But hey, let's just kick back and pursue leisurely activities . . . *ugh*. This mentality you present signifies everything I loath about communist philosophy. I for one would never want to be part of your "tribe".

At least someone shares my utter distaste for people that want something for nothing:
http://current.com/items/89906215/real_time_with_bill_maher.htm

Of course you should take everything with a grain (or pound) of salt. However my point is that this "monetary" system doesn't work. It doesn't even follow natural laws.
For example in nature if I want an apple I can just walk to an apple tree and pluck one for myself. Introduce money and now I'm as you mentioned "trading" labor to allow myself to buy an apple which has a value applied to it that is free naturally because money is man made. Also we put the apple on the "market" which is hilarious because an apple is apple and the concept apples being "up" or down" is well insane proof how crazy we've become. Now you're saying the old "money makes us move" kinda stuff and I used to think that too, well until I saw some engineers make stuff for free and then watch their projects get annihilated when they went to work for a big company. Money doesn't make us move it makes think, but only about how to get more money. It has nothing to do with honor, no kid takes a job at a clothing store for honor, but likely a chance to afford those ever so expensive dates .. No one is concerned with curing anything anymore because curing all the diseases would put a lot of people on the unemployment line along with a few companies out of business... the cycle continues

I'm babbling but imagine that apple scenario without the money. Now add a swarm of automated machines that only harvest apples (or whatever) for the sake of society. Well my friend their is no labor and no price, because the machines are just that. So guess what free apples. Oh yes you're thinking well someone has to mantain these things? Umm maybe, and even if a starving engineer wants more apples then it might be at the very leat in his own selfish interest to keep the supply constantly rolling. Enough about apples

Machines can be made very well if there is no profit margin, no bottom line, and no hours to be cut or dished out. I've had the joy of seeing automated surgery being worked out (not anything alive), and its not perfect yet, but neither are surgeons hence "malpractice".

So I may be idealistic, but thats because money is old tech to me. If you kept the current social orders in place and evenly distributed the worlds financial wealth amongst the globe making everyone "equal" the sad truth is that in a matter of a few everyday transactions would the balance be broken back to rich, middle and poor thus proving that none of the economic political systems (from capitalism all the way to communism) will ever solve hunger, poverty and crime as long as money is the barrier. So what I proposed in my last post was read the ideas, and offer your own, thats all.

As for my "tribe" (i like that term), well imagine working your field for a harvest and while you sweat, you look across and see a bunch of robots zipping around doing the work on another field. Buddy you just looked at my tribe.

This . . .

"Money doesn't make us move" & "no kid takes a job at a clothing store for honor, but likely a chance to afford those ever so expensive dates"

. . . contradicts each other.

Money does make people move BECAUSE it is required to fulfill the desire of going out on date.

Also, if you don't take pride in your work and gain a sense of dignity from it . . . then there is either something missing in your sense of ethics or you are not doing honest work.

The monetary system DOES work. If it didn't function and spur growth, then we wouldn't have the industry and technology that we have today.

I'm not going to continue the dialogue any further because you are comments aren't logical and you are right in that you ARE babbling.

I could point out the other specific holes, but why?

the monetary system couldve worked but it sure as hell doent now...whoever says it does belongs back in school and not here on current.Money is debt.RETARDS.Technology and unconditional love cold free us from money forever...you say that the system works because it must work for you...it doesnt work for me and billions of other people so you my friend can go create your lonely ass tribe with nobody in except the wallstreet crooks and have fun with your paper.And yes i want in with the new age tribe...sit on my ass all day and create stuff...while you work spinning your outdated hamster wheel...

namaste

to: iamfree

Why don't you attack the logic of the argument instead of the person. So much for that "unconditional love".

money does not = debt. The more money I have, the less debt I am in, period. Personally I'm not in debt at all, and I don't own a credit card. I work hard, and I spend little.

As for the monetary system not working for you, the only thing I can think of is that you are not living beneath your means and are living off of credit that you unable to or have trouble paying back. I could of course be wrong, but that's the only scenario I can see.

I personally know Chinese immigrants that live well below their means (means that are probably lower than yours) and make the monetary system work for them.

They do not buy into the consumerism lifestyle, buying expensive clothes, video games, cars, tv's, and even going on expensive dates if you can not afford them is irresponsible. Reject consumerism, not money.

lucid,

First of all this a great debate, heated but great nonetheless.

To clarify my point which I stand by that the only motivating factor of money is greed, not honor, not pride, not humanity. The kid in my example wants the date mostly for the sex but the expense is still in the way hence the part time job. However if the kid is a painter or plays the piano (like myself) and takes the time to create something on his own time for free then this is the pride of work he seeks. The part time job serves no purpose but to perpetuate the monetary system, the art/music well its just great for society collectively.

Oh now you might say what if you need money and someone wanted to pay to hear me play the ivory? Well of course I'd be up for it but only because I need to eat, pay rent/bills, and pay for every damn aspect of life. However if my food was guaranteed for life, along with housing, health, and safety. I'd play all day on request. However the sad truth is no one is paying me for my time on the piano, and thus I have to do something satisfy my basic needs whether I enjoy it or not. People can learn to "like" their job, but I never had to learn to like my hobbies, or passions. My father is an engineer and he loves to tinker with things, sadly in order to get the materials he wants for his own projects he has to earn money doing projects that serve someone elses purpose so even he cant spend much time working to help society because we all have to pay for existing. Money is useless because like I mentioned we control the resources, the harvest, the health etc. If we want to we could feed and power the planet forever (don't get me started with geo thermal energy either) for free infinitely, but money is the barrier now it hinders who gets what and puts value on things that essentially belong to everyone.

Shall I cite english common law for a second:
A long time ago the concept was that man is servant of the land via god (or insert deity) and that no one could own land because of this reason. This changed of course for a few reasons one being scarcity at the time and of course the other being power apportioned to lords by the kings. To be quite honest this common law was too advanced for the technology and conditions of that period. The resources were scarce and subject to famine and raids by other groups who suffered from the same conditions. On top of that bartering was based on scarcity as well, rice could only be tradable if the other guy couldn't grow rice. So with the resources being left to uncertainty some clever people started using money in absence of barter. Thus money was created as a means to control the distribution of those resources. However humans are creatures of habit and we just never let this system go once it was rolling because as time went on some people amassed this wealth and now had control over people, which some say is a drug for mankind. So here we are.

dont ask stupid questions.

hey i treat people for the "hater" sickness...you're starting to show the symptoms by posting pointless pessimistic comments:-&...you can contact me via current.com

namaste